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Discussion on Standing at mounting block
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Member:
dustee
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Posted on Friday, Oct 23, 2009 - 7:50 pm:
I have a student who is having a difficult time with mounting her horse at the mounting block. He loves to swing his butt outwards, and I am afraid she is going to get hurt. Sometimes he hurries it, and his attitude is one that he is very proud of himself for being so clever. He is perfectly fine after mounting. He would stand quietly if asked, walk off quietly, etc. I would grade his general behavior as very good, even though he needs a lot more education. We have been working on different things, but she is usually alone to mount, and I worry that he will take advantage of her and she will fall. She has just gotten through some issues with fear, and I would not want to see a recurrance of that mess.
I would love ideas of how others have gotten through this bad performance by a horse. The actual trigger for him to swing his butt outwards away from the mounting block is her adjusting the reins (even very lightly) in her hands.
Thank you all in advance for tips and tricks!!
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Member:
wgillmor
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Posted on Friday, Oct 23, 2009 - 9:53 pm:
My wife had a similar problem with her new horse.
We solved it with a two techniques. First, we would hitch up a lunge line. I would hold the line and she would try to mount. If he swung his hips, I would immediately make him work hard on the line at the canter (or lope if you prefer.) We would work until he would be out of breath and asking to stop. Then she would try to mount again. After two work sessions he didn't move, and she mounted and gave him a treat from the saddle. (The treat was the second technique.) After that he had the idea for at least that day. However, the next ride he tried again. One session on the lunge line was enough to convince him he would prefer to stand and get a treat than to work that hard. She hasn't had a problem since. She still gives him his carrot, but I doubt that is necessary any more.
Good luck,
Wiley
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Friday, Oct 23, 2009 - 10:34 pm:
Another tactic, which could be added to Wiley's suggestion, is to have the student fiddle with the reins, then just walk off. Doing that frequently and randomly the horses wouldn't know if she was going to mount or not.
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Member:
cheryl
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Posted on Saturday, Oct 24, 2009 - 8:48 am:
If she is having this problem when alone - it can be resolved the same way as Wiley suggested -as soon as the horse starts to swing out the owner needs to move the him in a circle around her - it's really uncomfortable going in that small of a circle and it not any fun a'tall I used this on my gelding - I had to repeat for a few days but he now stands still while I mount. It never took more than a couple turns around me before he was asking to stop. This is a Mark Rashid method and it works great. Might even up her confidence level.
Cheryl K
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Member:
canter
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Posted on Saturday, Oct 24, 2009 - 9:34 am:
A lady at my barn had the same issue with her horse. I helped her "cure" the problem using Wiley's method (or a close aproximation...I trotted the horse off in hand each time he moved until someone pointed out to me that it would be easier on me and more work for the horse if I made him move AROUND me on a line  ) It only took a few sessions and the horse now stands beautifully for her.
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Saturday, Oct 24, 2009 - 9:55 am:
I've had success with making the horse back up a few steps, lead back to the block and try mounting again. If the horse moves, we simply back more steps, and then come back and repeat trying to mount. Backing is hard work, and you can add backing in a circle, or backing moving the hindquarters sideways. Don't know what that is called, but anything to make it more difficult for the horse, the while remaining calm.
With a hyper horse, the circling might make things worse, it did with my Arab years ago. Backing irritated her, and she caught on finally!
Just be careful to stay calm, and backing should NOT be asked by pulling both reins back to the horses chest; rather alternate reins, starting with the front foot that is forward the most, saying "BACK, BACK" or have a tool like a riding crop or short stick in your hand to tap the chest.
What works will depend on the horses personality and the riders personality. If she is timid right now, it may work out better for her to try backing the horse if she has to do this alone, rather than add something she can't handle right now.
Just my 2 cents.
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Member:
sodmonst
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Posted on Saturday, Oct 24, 2009 - 5:21 pm:
I like the backing idea, it works to get a reluctant horse into a horse trailer too.
You can teach a horse to move his hips toward you on cue this way. First teach him that he must move along smartly in hand whenever you ask. Teach him that he must not move his head in front of you either. Then lead him along the fence with him between you and the fence.
Once all that is in place, you stop walking and cue him to keep moving. He cannot swing right, because the fence is there. He cannot go forward because you aren't offering that option. If he knows he is supposed to move, he'll try swinging his but around to toe left. At first, when he takes even a step left with his hind quarters, pause, reward, and walk off for a few feet. Then do it again. Try to train for one step at a time.
Once he really "gets it," you can mount from the fence or from a mounting block. It takes a little time, but not that much. The process is also helps cultivate a good working relationship. When he does well, he needs to get a treat immediately and a few times and he'll think differently about that mounting block
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Member:
wgillmor
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Posted on Saturday, Oct 24, 2009 - 6:20 pm:
In principle, I have nothing against the backing method. In fact, I have an agreement with my horse that he can back for a while before entering the trailer. He has to go either backward or forward, however.
In the event, however the backing method did not work with my wife's horse. He proved perfectly willing to back rather than stand if I asked him.
Probably the best idea is to pick among the ideas here, formulate a consistent plan and try it for a while. If it doesn't seem to be working there are more ideas to try.
No one seems to have commented on the fact that my wife's horse was given a treat as soon as he stood for mounting. I believe that is as important as the work. He did not have to choose between two forms of work, rather he choose between working hard and getting a carrot.
Wiley
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Member:
sodmonst
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Posted on Saturday, Oct 24, 2009 - 6:38 pm:
I guess you did not read my post, Wiley. I used the word "treat, but usually that means carrots at our place.
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Member:
wgillmor
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Posted on Saturday, Oct 24, 2009 - 6:50 pm:
Susie,
Well, I sort of read it, but I skipped right over the relevant sentence.
Apologies.
Wiley
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Member:
juliem
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Posted on Saturday, Oct 24, 2009 - 7:18 pm:
Wiley is right on the money about the treat! After an injury (and now all the time because it's so much easier when you're short) I needed to get on my gelding from the fender of the trailer. I taught him to sidepass toward me when I jiggled the rein, stepped on and then gave him a treat. The treat accomplished two things: He was eager to get into proper position, and he would no way move off before he got his treat. The best ones I've found are Manna Pro because if you leave them in your pocket, they can go through the washer and dryer without making a mess! As a side note, my shetland pony, who is very food motivated, learned to sidepass up to the fence and stand to be climbed on, by just WATCHING the gelding get a treat. If you climb on a fence at my place, that pony will be in position before you know it!
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Member:
terrido
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Posted on Saturday, Oct 24, 2009 - 7:28 pm:
OK, sorry I have to chime in here. haha
PATIENCE!!
First and foremost patience is required.
Second and MOST importantly find out WHY he suddenly does not want to stand to allow her to mount up!!! Usually it is because the saddle hurts. 9 times out of 10 there is a problem with saddle fit or position or both, or the horse is just plain sore in his back. So figure it out. And it may even just be that the rider's not ready mentally to be on the horse. That happens too. I have rarely seen a horse 'be clever' and not allow a person to mount if they have done so nicely in the past. It's just not in a horse's nature to do that. The horse will however TRY to tell you what's going on, one way they make themselves heard is to move their hindquarters out and away when you line up at the mounting block.
And lastly, you will need to work, school, him at the block quietly and patiently until he does exactly as you want. (Get rid of the ropes and gadgets and do not touch the reins and fiddle with his mouth! ack)
It takes as long as a it takes, so be prepared, but one or two sessions, and as long as there is not a pain related reason, they will then happily stand quietly without issue.
The reins should not be over his neck! So get them off his neck and use them to guide him. Stand on the block, be sure to have a dressage whip, and ask the horse to walk to you, to the block, to 'pick you up'. When he walks up & stands a second and then swings his quarters away, ask him to continue on away and then back to your right by rein(s) in your hand and move your arm to the right, use whip to move his hindquarters more over again to line back up on your right. IF he moves his quarters around fully so he is now standing to your left fine, bring him back around in front of you then ask him to swing his backend around again the other way, so that he is once more on your right and facing you to walk up again.
You continue to just keep asking him to line up for you, and if he continues to swing his quarters, you keep 'sending him away' again to then come line back up. DO NOT LEAVE the top of the block!! If he walks into you, use the whip to move him off, do not allow him to walk into you, etc!
Once he decides enough is enough and he lines up, now start to get very picky about HOW he lines up. Do not just settle for him standing there with the stirrup 4 inches further to the right of your right knee. Do not accept him standing there unless he is 'perfect', at least square in front but preferably fully square front and rear, with the stirrup right at your left knee. Yes be that picky about it!! With many horses the more exact you are in your request(s) the faster they will cooperate.
For the first session, once he is lined up then put reins over his head, he will probably go ahead and swing on out again, take reins off his neck and start over again. Once he will stand where you want him quietly while you put reins over his head, he is ready for you to mount up. At this point it is up to you if you go ahead and get on or call it a good lesson. I normally will not actually mount up the first session. I will move the saddle rocking it, I will put weight into the left stirrup, but I do not actually mount. Lots of praise for every try, and more once he stands quietly waiting.
The next session should not take near as long, but still he will test your resolve I think. This time once he lines up and is quiet after placing reins over his neck go ahead and mount up but have him just stand a bit and then ask him to walk off. Then don't ask too much more that session.
Normally by the third session they will walk right up and line up perfectly, bend their head nicely to you so you can put reins over, stand quietly and just wait for you. At this point the lesson has been learned again, and normal work can continue under saddle.
Longest it's ever taken me was about an hour in the midst of a very busy event, my horse just would not stand and would not focus. That is when I know better than to force her to stand by having someone hold her! If she won't stand and let me get on I have no business getting on her. I like being intact... LOL
I use the reins as the final test. If they will stand and let me put the reins over their neck I know they are ready, but if I put the reins over and they start to move off again, we aren't done yet. ;)
This teaches the horse a couple things, it teaches them obviously to just stand for you, but it also teaches them that you mean it when you ask and that you are particular (picky), but you do ASK while expecting them to cooperate. They learn that you aren't gonna back down, yet that you are patient in your persistence.
In this 'lesson' frustration needs to be put in the next county, along with any anger. There is no place for either here. you simply stand on the top of the block and work the horse until the horse decides to do as you ask. And you do it very matter of factly, like you do really have all day and if it takes all day so be it. Course if other people need to use that mounting block, you may need to find a second one to work on initially. ;) Besides by the time the horse lines up nicely he has done hundreds of "line-ups"! Lots of training in a very short time really.
Like I said as long as there is not a physical reason for the horse to act this way, this is how you then reteach them to line up nicely, quietly, and wait for you. In my experience, a horse that always lines up then suddenly does not is trying to tell you he hurts somewhere. Figure that out first and then reteach the mounting block lesson, because they will expect it to still hurt.
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Member:
dustee
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Posted on Saturday, Oct 24, 2009 - 7:32 pm:
Look at you folks!! All kinds of ideas are emerging. Love your pony, Julie...my kind of equine!!
I am trying to develop a plan like Wiley says with the information you have given me. I think the biggest problem is that this horse really has not had any "formal" education in his 7 year life, and may not quite realize he is getting out of bounds with his behavior. He does realize it is causing his owner to have to really open her mind and think this through. He is not a "bad boy", but his manners and education still need a lot of work. John Lyons would be of the thought to make the horse move - so that when he was given an opportunity to "stand", he would jump at it. This is sort of what Wiley says in the beginning. Personally, I have had horses that would not stand - and I have shoved a sugar cube in their mouth to chew while I got on...then shoved another one in after I was on and patted them. But, like has been mentioned, they are all different!!! He does not have a really solid human bonding - which takes time and respect. I guess I take his current attitude as a total lack of respect. Improvements needed. I see them once a week, and I will meditate and formulate!!! and I bet we will accomplish something!! I always want to have a very positive attitude about changes with a horse...which is why all your ideas are great!! Thanks - will let you know!!
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Member:
terrido
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Posted on Saturday, Oct 24, 2009 - 7:34 pm:
Ahh sorry dustylin I also wanted to point out especially for a student that has had fear, once they have worked the horse like this at the block enough they will be confident they can get on and will be safe because the horse will be a rock until asked to move off! Jumping on a nervous horse or one that hurts is just asking for trouble.
Like I said, if my horse moves her butt away she is telling me I am not ready to get on her, or she is not ready to have me on. I listen to her!! I don't care what's going on, or where we are. Yup I have forfeited show $$ because she would not stand for me. So be it. She is a lot of horse and if she won't cooperate with simple mounting.... ;) well, I am too old to worry about where her brain may go next. Nope if she won't stand I simply don't get on until she does (stand quietly and nicely for me).
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Saturday, Oct 24, 2009 - 11:19 pm:
"if my horse moves her butt away she is telling me I am not ready to get on her, or she is not ready to have me on."
Amen to that!!
With that thought in mind, it sounds like this horse and young rider should be working on more than her getting on and riding!
As for treats, sometimes I give them, but I prefer a nice scratch, or rub. For example, a horse that wasn't standing for mounting, has now stood still & I am in the saddle, bringing his head around and giving him some rubs on the forehead, or maybe inside his ear if he likes that, along with lots of "Gooood boooy" talk works well. Praise and reward, a little lateral flexing, all calming to him and me. Then sit quietly and get back off, or ride off if you think the lesson has been a success.
So much depends on the horse and person, there is never just one way that works best, always.
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Member:
dustee
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Posted on Sunday, Oct 25, 2009 - 10:14 am:
You know, stupid me!! I knew she had her saddle fitted about 9 months ago - and I have not recently palp'ed his back or actually checked it to be sure there are no sore spots, hot pressure points, etc. Shame on me - - Thanks Terrie - that is obviously the first place to start.
Angie - you're right - more groundwork is necessary - and you know students - the only time that counts with them is time in the saddle. The rest of it is a waste - - until they get farther down the road of understanding!!
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Member:
terrido
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Posted on Sunday, Oct 25, 2009 - 11:46 am:
;) haha or they just get older! With age comes wisdom, and fear of falling off.
You are most welcome!
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Member:
maggienm
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Posted on Sunday, Oct 25, 2009 - 12:00 pm:
I use a slight modification of Wileys method. I will put a halter on over the bridle and attach an extra long lead.
If the horse moves off I will do as Wiley suggests, make the horse work then offer an opportunity to stand.
I have also been successful with the following method.
When the horse swings his haunch out I tap on the outside hip with my dressage whip.
Lightly at first then increasing firmer until the horse even leans in the correct direction.
Stop tapping,(use a kiss or clicking in conjunction with the tapping) praise, continue until the horse is in the correct position.
Praise. Walk off, do not mount. Repeat until the horse moves into the correct position with a kiss alone. This is giving hte horse a benefit of doubt that he actually understands what is being asked of him.
Depending on the how long this takes, and the overall attitude of the horse I may or may not ride. Perhaps another area of groundwork or basic lunging and call it enough for that day.
I would also check that the individual mounting acquires the saddle gently, no plopping in the seat or gouging of ribs with a toe.
Sara's suggestion is excellent and a good reminder to change any routine from time to time.
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Member:
sodmonst
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Posted on Monday, Oct 26, 2009 - 4:25 pm:
The themes that I am reading here are:
1) Mounting from the mounting block is not one thing, to the horse it is many pieces.
2) Each smaller peice is a big deal to the horse.
3)The horse needs to be OK with each peice of the proceedure.
4) Seperate the different peices so that the horse isn't stringing them together while it is learning.
5) Use rewards and build pleasant associations for each peice of the proceedure.
6) Make sure the horse is not just trying to protect itself from physical pain.
What did I miss?
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Member:
maggienm
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Posted on Tuesday, Oct 27, 2009 - 11:32 am:
Great summary Suzie.
The one thing I would add is 'make the wrong thing difficult'.
It is my experience that until the horse knows what is expected treating can be distracting to the horse.
Praise and petting, plenty of 'good job', when the horse makes an effort in the right direction.
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