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Discussion on HOW MUCH TRAIL TIME FOR 31 MONTH MORGAN?
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New Member:
bhmm9999
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Posted on Tuesday, Oct 27, 2009 - 11:49 am:
I've read physiology section (heavy reading) and don't see any similar posts to this...
My Morgan mare is just over 2.5 years old. She is coming along very well with ground training and and is green broke and has done well on a few 30-45 minute trail rides. Only gone a few, but another Morgan owner cautioned me about ruining her back and bones by riding too much at this age.
Trail riding is my love and I don't want to damage her in any way, but I can't wait to do more trails. This is my decompression and stress reliever.
Can someone advise a schedule for the next year as to how much time I can safely spend on her back riding moderately hilly hard dirt trails and anything else I need to know?
This is my first post, THANKS!
Bob
San Diego, CA
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Member:
leslie1
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Posted on Tuesday, Oct 27, 2009 - 1:22 pm:
Hi Bob
I feel for you as I have a 2.5 year old as well...its hard but so worth it to not push them. ...I recently free leased a trail horse for the winter and that is working out wonderfully...my filly gets to grow up a little more and I still get to ride.
Before I got my lease horse I was taking lessons with my trainer just so I could get my riding 'fix'
maybe do the winter doing more ground work and trail hand walking or ponying?
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Member:
dres
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Posted on Tuesday, Oct 27, 2009 - 1:48 pm:
very cute horse.. I start my large warmblood horses at 3 years old.. i only put 60-90 days on them.. and that is mostly ground work and getting them green broke... i then put them out to pasture till 4 years old.. again start them back into light training and hope to maybe do a schooling show end of the summer .. of course my horses are over 17 hhs tall and keep growing till they are 5 ..
Have fun..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
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New Member:
bhmm9999
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Posted on Tuesday, Oct 27, 2009 - 2:33 pm:
I am 170lbs mare stands about 15h just under 1,000lbs I think.
I hope someone can advise as to a minimum amount of time I can train in the saddle or some minimum amount of time on trails on weekly basis. How about once per week for 20-30 minutes?
Is it also a bad idea to continue with ground-work like Anderson and Parelli? I've hear other people who put horse to pasture after being green broke. Why? Why can't I do continuous ground training? Does that mess up their brain/willingness to learn in some way?
Of course if the consensus is...not a good idea, then I'll have to be content with an expensive pet which will be very tough for another year and a half.
Thanks for responses.
bob
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Member:
rtrotter
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Posted on Tuesday, Oct 27, 2009 - 4:00 pm:
Bob,
You should teach your horse to drive, if she doesn't do so already. This is a great way to relax and teach her manners. Morgans are very good at this, it will give her the exercise and give you a way to still work her and not have to ride her all the time for right now.
I have an 18 month old Standardbred colt, that I broke to drive when he was 15 months old. The ground work and driving I put into him in June is paying off now. This colt works every day ( he is towing 2 1/2 miles) and he is starting to get into a routine where he really likes what he's doing.
While you may have to take a detour before you can ride very frequently, there is no reason why she can not give you pleasure in other ways.
Rachelle
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Tuesday, Oct 27, 2009 - 4:26 pm:
I also am a big fan of ground driving. All you need is some long ropes, you can make them yourself, no need for anything fancy. Run the lines through the stirrups. You can do SOO much from the ground the next year or more. What you do long reining(ground driving) is only limited to your imagination. Same with more work like free luning in the round pen, no matter what method appeals to you. Work on giving to pressure all body parts, backing, etc. It will all make riding so much more fun and safer.
I wouldn't be in a hurry to ride (well I would be actually!)to ride more than a couple of one hour trail rides a week the next year. It seems I've always at that age ended up with about 1/2 hour ground work/review (like can you saddle standing in a round pen or arena, not tied up?)maybe 1/2 hour riding. You just build on it slowly. Lots of walking, working on a great walk, calm stops, little bit of trotting, asking for her to give her head, etc. Lightly back...there is so much to do, I LOVE the part of just getting a horse better and lighter at the basics.
Many times I then leave my arena for a brief walk in the woods for a reward.
Don't ride 7 days a week though, or ground school 7 days a week. Just keep in mind everytime you are interacting with your horse, you are training something, good or not so good.
You won't mess of your willingness to learn if you change what you do..work on one thing briefly and accept a try, go on to something eles, reward a try. But drilling and drilling over and over might not be a good idea, both mentally and physically.
Hope this helps.
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Member:
lhenning
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Posted on Tuesday, Oct 27, 2009 - 4:30 pm:
Hi Bob,
Welcome to HA. I started riding my quarterhorse at 2 years of age. I did that because I was new and didn't know better. I also did groundwork pretty consistently for years. Now he is 8 and he seems fine for my "wear and tear". When he was young, I never rode him hard, and rode about twice a week for a half hour, walking and trotting only. I did groundwork for as long as his attention span allowed, which is only about 10 or 15 minutes at that age. Granted, I weigh less than you and since he is only 8, I may not know the results of my actions for some time. I know there are people that train and show horses at age 2 and 3. Yet, most people who care say not to ride them until they are older and have time to develop their joints.
If I had it to do over again, I would do groundwork only and with the same criteria. I mean I would work him as long as his attention dictated. I would give him breaks when weather made it difficult for me to work outside, but otherwise keep up with consistent ground training. I would not lunge in circles until he was older either. Stressing the growing joints is what you want to avoid.
I am no expert and don't want to give you that impression. I was someone that had one horse and a whole lot of desire to spend time with that horse. It would have killed me to leave him sit in a pasture for a year or two.
Best of luck,
Linda
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Member:
dres
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Posted on Tuesday, Oct 27, 2009 - 4:38 pm:
The reason i put my 3 year olds back out to pasture is that they are still growing and need time to play still .. also i don't want to fry their little brains, as my horses are show horses and only ridden in the arena.. My 4 years old are not drilled when started back to work.. i tried to change up the training like long walks around the fields / arena work / ground play Parelli , Keeps them happy ..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Oct 27, 2009 - 4:46 pm:
HMMMM when we had Quarter Horses it wasn't unusual to "break" them out at two and trail ride them.
We usually walked and sometimes we would go hours. My husband had a 2 yr. old he rode and he is no light weight! She was about 15.1 HH and stocky built. I think letting the horse tell you if she is ready might be a good way. Our horses were never worse for wear, matter of fact I seem to have had less problems soundness wise with the ones started early.
I do think the key is to keep it leisurely and easy. Not a lot of circles, and when riding mostly walk. JME
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New Member:
bhmm9999
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Posted on Tuesday, Oct 27, 2009 - 5:19 pm:
Thanks for the lively discussion and insights. Isn't this interesting the divergence of opinions?
Wow, all over the place.
OK, I will do the driving which was on my training agenda...I'm on board with short training sessions, not drilling them to death...and I think the horsemanship training I employ is actually positive and fun for the horse. I am also fairly certain my mare enjoys the trails as she always hesitates before riding back into her corral. I don't see horses playing much in pasture, mostly just standing around bored or getting huffy to prove dominance.
Back to my main question:
Given the age of horse and my weight--is there any agreed minimum amount of time I can be on her back without worrying about damage to bone development? I'm hoping to hear a ride a week for 20-30min, no troting--isn't going to hurt her.
I hope Dr. O checks in on this.
I'm learning alot so keep posting.
Thanks,
bob
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Member:
rtrotter
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Posted on Tuesday, Oct 27, 2009 - 5:47 pm:
Diane,
You may have something as far as starting them early. I used to be of the mind that the older the horse the less soundness problems one has, but I am slowly changing my mind. I think that the combination of handling at a young age and slow progressive loading makes for sounder horses that are capable of doing more at a younger age and stay sounder as they get older. It may have to do with the creation of stronger bone density and the ability of the tendons and ligaments to absorb more stress.
My colt is on the progressive loading theory. He will be towing for 4 weeks @ a 6 minute mile rate of speed, gradually increasing his mileage until he is comfortably going 4-5 miles a day and increasing his speed to between a 4-5 minute mile rate of speed. He is not wearing anything other than an open bridle and halter, no harness or other equipment( similar to ponying)
At the end of this period, he will be strong enough to handle 4 miles a day in a jogcart and all his equipment(hobbles etc)but we will start off with 2 miles on the towgate and two miles in the jog cart until he is weaned off the tow gate and can go all his jog miles in the cart.
This colt will not go any serious training miles until he is jogging all his miles in the cart and they are all coming in at under 4 minute miles.
Rachelle
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Tuesday, Oct 27, 2009 - 5:54 pm:
Bob,
I hope DrO adds some "Scientific" facts here too. I just wanted to add that exercise is good for strong bones and tendons, but not lots of circles as others have said.
Also are you riding as a "heavy 170 pounds" or "light?" In other words, is your riding ability/athletic ability good enough that you are a balanced rider? Do you have the experience to ride a posting trot? Just asking because those things matter to the horses back, as does saddle fit, pad, etc. (Beginning to wonder why you ever asked, huh? LOL!!) Some people do ride like a sack of potatoes ya know.
If you think you ride, um, lumpy,  (just kidding) maybe do less riding instead of more at her young age.
To answer you direct question, IMO, I don't think 20-30 minutes, easy trail ride, at a walk, is going to hurt her. I am not an expert, only have started about 10 horses in my life time. I think it's a great addition to the other schooling at her age, they do enjoy seeing the country side.
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Member:
juliem
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Posted on Tuesday, Oct 27, 2009 - 6:45 pm:
I think you need to look at your weight, plus tack, and figure the percentage your weight represents compared to hers. I guess at 2.5 I'd come down on the side of 20 to 30 minutes three times a week and not ask her to carry you up or down steep hills. You can get off and walk and teach her to follow without running over you. Ground work has endless possibilities and she can learn to negotiate a lot of obstacles in hand and this will translate to under saddle later.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Oct 27, 2009 - 7:14 pm:
Julies suggestion sounds reasonable to me too. I think the horses back is last to mature at around 5yrs. old. I'd agree with Angie too, a heavier rider that rides "lightly" and balanced, is a big difference from one "bouncing" on the back.
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Member:
erika
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Posted on Tuesday, Oct 27, 2009 - 8:56 pm:
I rode my mare lightly at 2 1/2 on the trail. She seemed happy to get out and see stuff. I think she was bored at home and welcomed the stimulation. Sounds like yours likes it too.
There's a big difference between taking a nice ride and working a horse hard. Keep the pressure minimal and make it fun for her and you.
My mare is now 6, and in pretty strenuous work for the first time. I do see big changes in her body since her baby days, but I think stressing a little helps build strength. But getting out in the world gave her some wisdom and exposure to things that might freak a horse that hasn't seen a lot.
Just keep in mind that 170 lbs, plus heavy saddle, etc. is a lot, so take it easy til she's stronger.
But have some fun!
Erika
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Member:
dustee
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Posted on Wednesday, Oct 28, 2009 - 7:16 am:
My next question would be - what kind of saddle? Are we talking an eight pound Wintec all purpose - or a 60# heavy duty Western saddle? This would change the load on her back considerably -
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Oct 28, 2009 - 10:10 am:
Hello Bob,
The problem is you want specific dates and times and recommendations and equine science does not have this information Bob. Instead we have lots of opinions some from recognized experts that directly contradict each other. But, what ever does turn out to be the best answer to these questions it will always be true that what is generally true may not apply to any individual. Whatever training system or riding regimen you choose the regular and ongoing assessment of mental state and health is the ultimate control of what you do with your horse.
What we know about exercise and work in the developing horse is explained in the article but it uses general terms because that is all we really know. I look at this argument as a "experience" vs "conjecture" discussion with little scientific fact. It is clear to me that reviewing a thousand years of experience of starting horses before they are 2 to be ridden before they are 3 if done judiciously, is a practical way to train horses with minimal obvious health problems being caused by this procedure.
It has only been the past few decades that it has been conjectured that starting horses before they have "completely matured" might have adverse consequences later in life. And some of these folks define maturation as not occurring until around 8 years of life...Kilby comes to mind for instance. It is true that some young horses have been pushed hard enough to induce early arthritis but some of these folks are maintaining that just about any level of work under saddle is too much before somewhere between 4 and 8 years of age.
To answer your direct question Bob: 30 minutes of trail riding that avoids a lot of trotting and galloping once a week is certainly well within the norm for many folks who regularly train and don't experience obvious problems with their horses later. Even 2 or 3 such rides a week falls into the norm of many successful trainers. And as long as you and your horse continue to enjoy your ground training I see no reason to stop it. I do not care for long lunging sessions in young horses however so like many above recommend ground driving early.
DrO
Ps Bob you will usually get more responses if you do not use ALL CAPS in your titles. This is the internet equivalent to shouting and reserved for such times that shouting would be considered appropriate. Even in such cases though some don't respond to shouts so it is best to avoid the practice altogether.
DrO
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Member:
bhmm9999
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Posted on Wednesday, Oct 28, 2009 - 11:43 am:
To everyone who responded on both sides of the issue--great discussion. And, sorry for caps. I'm used to doing CAPS with my Craig's List and Ebay Ads.
To answer a few questions...my saddle is an old Simco and weighs about 25lbs. So the horse is carrying about 200lbs total with me on board. I am a beginnermediate and pretty much flop around in the saddle, but am working on it (I just purchased Clinton Anderson Riding with Confidence training DVDs).
DrO, you points are well taken and the advice is very welcomed. I think my horse and I both enjoy our training and trail sessions, so it is a relief to know I can continue both. In addition, I can't afford to rent another trail horse in addition to boarding my mare.
One follow-up question...
Linda suggested that lunging in circles was not a good thing for young horses. I do lunge 15-20 minutes a couple time per week. Also, when I ride I do LOTS of circles to divert my horses energies when she wants to trot instead of walking back from trail. This technique seems to work. I might do 10 or 12 circles on the way back. Bad Idea??
Thanks, I really enjoy and appreciate everyone's participation and feedback.
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Member:
stek
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Posted on Wednesday, Oct 28, 2009 - 12:11 pm:
Bob, circles are very hard on a young horses joints, and can be mind-numbing as well. I would suggest when you lunge you keep the gait to an easy trot and the circle to at least 60 feet in diameter. A better option as others have recommended is ground driving.
If your mare is getting antsy on the way home to me that is a good indication that she needs some more work developing her relationship with you to see you as her herd leader that she can turn to and trust when away from the other horses. Again lots of ground work can help this, and of course there is no reason you can't hop off and do ground exercises on the way home from your trail ride.
If she is already showing herd bound tendencies (rushing to get home) maybe you need to start with shorter rides (5 minutes or so) and build up from there to develop her confidence.
Again just to reiterate a 2 year old's attention span is only slightly longer than that of a circus monkey While it is common practice for some breeds to start at 2 (I've started many 2 year old quarter horses, and thoroughbreds are backed as long yearlings) keep your sessions short and easy for now to avoid burning her out. Your patience will be rewarded over the years!
One last thought .. while I wouldn't hesitate to do short infrequent rides on a 2 year old I would NOT do any jumping. Again, too hard on young joints IMO. Just my 2 cents.
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Wednesday, Oct 28, 2009 - 2:09 pm:
Hey Bob,
As we grow as riders, we all try different things, follow different "experts" advice. Or advice of those who think they are experts,;-). I am not either, but I would like to share my latest, um, insights as a middle aged woman.
I started out HATING "arena" work..never had one, didn't want any enclosed area. Get on and ride, train on the trails!
Now I love having an arena, and round pen. There is security in both, for you and the horse. The horse soon learns they cannot go far, and it has a mental effect too.
You say about circling on the way home. Rather then do that, I would suggest more time in an enclosed area if you have one available.
One of my favorite guys to watch on RFDTV, is Dennis Reis. I also like Linda Pareli(SP?) I have outgrown Clinton Anderson, finding he is not subtle enough for my taste.
From Dennis and Linda, I have learned to ride with body language and breathing. The way I spend time in the arena is asking my horses to walk with me doing as little as possible. Lift the reins up, lift my body "up", then, if needed a slight squeeze with my legs. As soon as horse is moving, relax and move with the horses movement.
Halting or slowly down: Stop riding by stopping all MY body movement, let my breath out in a loud "wooooo" wait (I will allow a few steps at first) then use of reins if needed. One rein, then the other, not pulling back on both!
If the halt was not quick enough after I thought the lesson was learned, or just to reinforce, I will ask for a back up. Look down and see which shoulder is farthest ahead, left yourself UP and very very slightly back, ask with the rein of the front leg that is farthest forward, and ask for a back up. Alternate you legs & reins (I am not sure which leg goes with which rein. the same or opposite? I just do what feels natural)
At first reward a step, then 2, then 3. Always halt by stopping riding, then IMMEDIATELY...almost, lift up for forward movement again, and be sure to go forward a few steps.
I spend time every ride on every horse, reviewing the above. It makes and keeps my horses (I have 4, but only one is fantastic at this, one is so/so, and 2 are green yet)light, soft and attentive.
I no longer do the one rein stop pull the head around that Clinton preaches about, I think it's too hard on the horse neck/shoulders. Using breathing and body language, in the arena, does help tons in the open...the more you practice before you ride out, the better your trail rides will be.
You can also do so much with asking the horse to move hindquarters over, sidepassing eventually, all the fancy smancy moves I don't know the names of, but worth having a horse know them. Might save you some time in a pinch!
To repeat what I said earlier, 20 minutes in the arena, doing the above training, then I open the gate (Another nice thing to teach your horse to accept you doing from her back)and we do a nice woods ride, on & off trails depending on my mood, time I have.
Keep it fun! Stay safe!
Just my methods, you will find what works for you & her.
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Member:
lhenning
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Posted on Wednesday, Oct 28, 2009 - 2:42 pm:
Bob,
I have that same DVD, in fact I am nearing the end of the Riding With Confidence part 2. Sorry Angie, in this regard I must humbly disagree. (Rarely happens, lol). I think this series is an excellent way to train both rider and horse. The two of us have progressed from very bad problems to light, easy control and confidence. Bob, I went through each lesson and perfected it before moving on. It's taken a couple years to get to this point. I also used Clinton's book "Gaining Respect and Control on the Ground" and went through it the same way, lesson by lesson. As a new beginner with a young horse to train, I found his lessons easy to follow and besides showing how to do it, he also tells you troubleshooting for situations when the horse or handler don't react as the lesson showed. Lightness is always the goal and if you follow things as explained, your horse will become light and responsive too. I'm not trying to sell DVD's, I am just telling my experience.
Good luck,
Linda
Linda
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Member:
sodmonst
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Posted on Wednesday, Oct 28, 2009 - 8:43 pm:
Bob, she is pretty, you must be proud of her.
I’ve ridden horses at 30+ months for 4-5 hours in a week, but not more than 1 hour at a time, only walking and jogging, and staying on gentle vs. steep, rocky trails.
Like others here, I am not a fan of lounging young horses. It puts unnecessary torque on young tendons, joints, and ligaments. For learning and bonding value, driving, groundwork, games, and grooming are more engaging for both horse and person.
Further, I do not mount a horse, and especially not a young horse from the ground. It puts a lot of unnecessary pressure on their bones. I haven’t seen the article, but a reliable person told me that skeletons of horses regularly ridden and mounted from the ground show wear on the boney processes of the withers. Horse and Rider magazine recently had an article about the stress caused by mounting from the ground too. Anyway, teaching a horse to sidle up to the fence for mounting is fun, builds patience, and helps you learn to work together.
In sum, IMO riding is in, fast riding is out, ground work is in, lounging is out, gentle trails are in, steep hills are out, mounting from a block, rock, fence, or embankment are in, mounting from the ground is out. In answer to your original query, as you improve your balance and skills, 30-45 minutes, up to four times weekly is OK. Understand that compensating for your unbalanced moments is hard on her, and could even frighten her some. At 36-38 months, riding up to 90 minutes with more trotting will be OK. By 42-48 months, she should be good to go, and the two of you can have a trust-based partnership going. It seems like a long wait now, but it will seem like a great investment when she is a strong, sound, energetic 15-year-old mare.
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Member:
sodmonst
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Posted on Wednesday, Oct 28, 2009 - 9:00 pm:
About circles. Not all will agree with me here, and I'm not saying that I am "right," what follow is just my opinion.
Energy is good, why burn it off doing leg wrenching circles? You can do lots with long serpentines. If she's rushing home, try going out for ten minutes then coming in for ten minutes, then going back out for ten, coming in for ten... She'll learn that going home is just a thing, not THE thing.
Anything that develops her attention to your instructions will direct all that energy. You pay for that energy when you pay for her feed. Would you pay for tanks of gasoline in order to practice driving in circles?
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Member:
bhmm9999
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Posted on Thursday, Oct 29, 2009 - 2:15 pm:
My goodness...what terrific posts. I am most impressed with the time each of you took to explain your views. Where do you do you find it : -) ?
Shannon, no more circles on the way in! I love the advice to start out with short, then progressively longer outings to get her used to coming back without being in a rush. Yeah, why not get off and do some ground work on the trail to get her respect back. It amazes me that I have to be told good simple advice. Seems like common sense. thanks.
Angie, I started out with Parelli and it changed my world! Absolutely loved it and still do. Then I found Anderson who I think is a Parelli on steroids. He seems to blend a bit more cowboy mentality into it which I relate to better. maybe it is a guy thing, but I needed a little macho in my training. Anyhow, I loved your suggestions and printed them out and am going to train using your advice to the "T". Just So you know, it is almost exactly what I just watched on Anderson DVD.
Which begs a question about an Anderson technique--hobbling. I like his reasons and approach to hobbling and wonder if you think that is too cowboy?
Linda, as I stated. Anderson is my guy for now. Just received the DVDs and have watched the first series. BTW, one of the first things he talks about is relaxation/breathing techniques for stopping your horse (along with single reign stops). Thanks for encouragement.
Suzie, Thanks for the compliment on my mare. We had our first cold night in the low 40's and I was out at 6:30am mucking. As soon as she saw me she ran up and down the corral like I've never seen. took her to the big arena and she went into running and kicking out like the happiest little kid! never saw her so happy with so much energy. As soon as she had her fun she came up to me for approval and was huffing and puffing right in my face. It was a "proud owner" moment.
Loved your "Wired Magazine" what is hot and what's not! Lunging in circles is out. Your experience of riding 4x per week is encouraging. I still have a ways to go on the ground so a couple times per week will be my max.
I'm learning quickly that it takes a community to raise kids--and our horses. Thanks for being there!
Bob
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Member:
bhmm9999
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Posted on Thursday, Oct 29, 2009 - 2:17 pm:
My goodness...what terrific posts. I am most impressed with the time each of you took to explain your views. Where do you do you find time to do it : -) ?
Shannon, no more circles on the way in! I love the advice to start out with short, then progressively longer outings to get her used to coming back without being in a rush. Yeah, why not get off and do some ground work on the trail to get her respect back. It amazes me that I have to be told good simple advice. Seems like common sense. thanks.
Angie, I started out with Parelli and it changed my world! Absolutely loved it and still do. Then I found Anderson who I think is a Parelli on steroids. He seems to blend a bit more cowboy mentality into it which I relate to better. maybe it is a guy thing, but I needed a little macho in my training. Anyhow, I loved your suggestions and printed them out and am going to train using your advice to the "T". Just So you know, it is almost exactly what I just watched on Anderson DVD.
Which begs a question about an Anderson technique--hobbling. I like his reasons and approach to hobbling and wonder if you think that is too cowboy?
Linda, as I stated. Anderson is my guy for now. Just received the DVDs and have watched the first series. BTW, one of the first things he talks about is relaxation/breathing techniques for stopping your horse (along with single reign stops). Thanks for encouragement.
Suzie, Thanks for the compliment on my mare. We had our first cold night in the low 40's and I was out at 6:30am mucking. As soon as she saw me she ran up and down the corral like I've never seen. took her to the big arena and she went into running and kicking out like the happiest little kid! never saw her so happy with so much energy. As soon as she had her fun she came up to me for approval and was huffing and puffing right in my face. It was a "proud owner" moment.
Loved your "Wired Magazine" what is hot and what's not! Lunging in circles is out. Your experience of riding 4x per week is encouraging. I still have a ways to go on the ground so a couple times per week will be my max.
I'm learning quickly that it takes a community to raise kids--and our horses. Thanks for being there!
Bob
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Member:
dustee
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Posted on Thursday, Oct 29, 2009 - 6:33 pm:
Hi - I am wondering if hobbling is something that at your admitted stage of development with this gal is gong to get you in trouble.
Maybe others have different thoughts, but I would like to think that someone who is going to be hobbling would have a good reason to do it, and would have enough experience with horses that they could read the next page before it jumps on them and they don't know what happened or how it happened. You sound like you are doing just fine on a moderate course with your filly - .....just a thought!!
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Member:
stek
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Posted on Thursday, Oct 29, 2009 - 7:15 pm:
Dustylin you raise an interesting point: at what point should your own experience level dictate what you should be doing with your horses?
To answer the direct question about hobbling (is it too 'cowboy'): no, I have started lots of horses on hobbles and consider it just like everything else. If done in a calm, respectful, careful way there is no reason not to do it. I would object to hobbling a horse who was frightened and trying to get away as a way of dominating them, but I'm sure that's not what we're talking about here. In fact, at one farm where I worked we hobbled all the 2 year olds as part of the starting under saddle process so they would get used to the idea of standing still unless directed otherwise. Never had any problems.
Now to address the other issue. In my mind, the ideal scenario is that the rider/handler should be at least at an intermediate skill level before they start training the horse. If you don't have good control of your body yet, or you don't have good horse-reading skills, it's asking a lot of a horse to learn to be light on clear cues and move well in the process.
I was recently re-watching the Sally Swift 'Centered Riding' video series and was struck by the fact that it completely focused on teaching the rider how to ride well. (What ever happened to riding lessons?)
By contrast, a lot of the natural horsemanship clinicians I have watched hardly talk about the skill of the rider at all. Instead they show people who are extremely green trying to train their own equally green horses.
This is not a critique of green-ness; every single one of us started out not knowing how to ride and handle horses at some point in our lives. And I have quite a few miles under my butt but still take riding lessons to stay sharp. I just think we owe it to our horses to get as much experience as possible before we start trying to teach them.
That said in many cases horses and riders learn along the way together with no problems. I don't want to be discouraging in that regard. But if you get the opportunity to learn from a horse that already knows the ropes, it makes everyone's life easier!
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Thursday, Oct 29, 2009 - 11:23 pm:
I like what you said Shannon about the clinicians. I couldn't agree more. Nothing wrong with watching DVDs or TV, going to see these guys (gals) in person, it's a great way to learn. What I have a problem with is horse training shouldn't be done in an hour or 2 show, it's life long process and shouldn't be hurried.
Bob,
I love your enthusiasm! But I hope you forget about the hobbles for a bit. IF you get in a wreck with any rope or thing around a horses leg, it can be very, very nasty. Besides a bad rope burn, you can end up with a horse with a hurt leg, and at the least, a scared horse who will not trust you now. Not to mention getting hurt yourself.
I am not sure what "Parelli on steroids" is doing with hobbles, I don't recall seeing that, but I can share with you a few experiences:
Just because a cowboy on tv can lay a horse down by hobbling up one leg, don't mean I can. (I was trying to get eye DrOps in a horse, and seriously thought I'd sit on her dang head to get the job done!)
Just because a cowboy on tv can have a rope on the halter, and another around the flank to get the buck out of a horse, don't mean that I can. (I did do that successfully, but not the first time!)
Or you can, or you should.
In rereading your last post, Clinton talks about breathing?? He breaths with all that talking he does???
Seriously, what DVD's did you get? Must be some newer ones than I've watched. Perhaps he's changed his teaching since I last watched him.
At any rate, I am looking forward to updates on how the training is going.
Enjoy!!
Stay Safe!!
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Member:
erika
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Posted on Friday, Oct 30, 2009 - 9:46 am:
Hey Bob, bet you didn't know how much advice you'd get off a simple question, huh? But nothing attracts horse people like a pretty, young horse! And yours is quite a looker. Like Angie says, I love your enthusiasm, too. The best thing we can do for our horses is to use 'em, and train 'em. A horse that "can do" is worth its weight in gold.
There was a thread on hobbles recently. You might do a search and read some of those comments and recommendations. I do recall that the consensus was to proceed with caution. I used them briefly on my App when I was a kid, but found them rather useless because he learned to take baby steps and go where he wanted anyway  . It is good to teach a horse not to panic when his legs are bound up, though--may even save his life someday. But as far as a restraint device, many of us would prefer a pick line.
Shannon, good advice about ongoing learning! You are often the voice of reason, BTW. Weren't you the one who said relax about guest riders?
Angie, I'm still trying to picture you sitting on Tango's head with the eyeDrOps!
Keep us up to date on how your horse is doing, will you, Bob?
Erika
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Member:
lhenning
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Posted on Friday, Oct 30, 2009 - 10:00 am:
Hmmm, got to defend my buddy Clinton I guess, lol!
Yes, he teaches the stop as 1) sit back 2) breath out and say "whoa" 3)pick up the reins. My horse stops when I sit back after doing this for many repetitions.
I've also heard him recommend dressage for learning riding skills and NH for learning good training skills. He has several TV episodes where he works with dressage horses that have problems. Riding and training are two separate elements of good horsemanship.
Bob, to answer your question about finding time to write my answers . . . I do most of my posting while I am at work, but don't tell my employer  . Who's got time for this at home???
Happy trails,
Linda
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Friday, Oct 30, 2009 - 12:09 pm:
Erika,
I thought it would be Diane who would assume I was trying sit on Tango's head! Sorry to disappoint you, but it was Willow. She's about 8" shorter and weighs 600 pounds less, lol! Never did rinse her eye, I remembered I was trying to rinse with saline solution. Oh, and the eye was fine the next day, cancelled the vet appt.
Linda,
Does your buddy Clinton say sit back or just stop riding?
I may have to watch what I have DVR'd...I think they are shows about dressage horses. You all have my curiosity going now about what he's teaching.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Oct 30, 2009 - 12:37 pm:
From the "natural horse clinicians" I have watched it seems to me they all teach the same thing basically with their own twist added. Any horse I have broke or rode as a greenie had something new to teach me. I think we mentioned in my at liberty thread that a horse can be taught any cue you want for just about anything, as long as you are consistent in it's use and it makes some sort of sense to the horse. Timing is one of the most important things to learn with a horse IMHO
Bob I have been fighting with a dancing, prancing idiot when coming home for the last 10 yrs. He is a rather strong willed horse and coming home was always a nightmare.... you don't want to go there . Finally after 10 yrs. he has stopped and that's because I went back to ground work and baby steps.... did not skip a step or take any short cuts. You want to have your horses Whoa, respect, and confidence before you start much trail riding, bad habits are easier to form then get rid of!
Hobbles I have never been a fan of....too much can go wrong. Try teaching your mare to ground tie, I taught Hank that while doing my at liberty training and he seems to be retaining it well.
Angie you said "her" that was my cue it wasn't Tango!
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Member:
lhenning
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Posted on Friday, Oct 30, 2009 - 3:08 pm:
Angie, I've seen "stop riding" but I think that might be Parelli? Clinton teaches sit back and DrOp your weight into the saddle. Seems like much the same thing just said differently, as Diane points out.
Its been my (short) experience that anytime the word force comes into horse training (i.e. sitting on head for eyeDrOps) you will set yourself back and have to start over with whatever you are teaching. Start over from way back. It's that old adage one step forward two steps back. Better to take the long route in teaching something slowly than try to force them and have to step back.
Linda
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Member:
maggienm
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Posted on Friday, Oct 30, 2009 - 3:32 pm:
Hi Bob,
As you can see there are a variety of opinions.
I have read articles by Dr. Deb Bennett and Dr. Hilary Clayton and Nancy Loving that progressive loading is beneficial. It makes sense to me,
but what exactly constitutes progressive and how much?
I understand you are looking for a formula to help you keep your horse safe but there are many variables to consider.
For instance, the terrain being ridden, the experience of the rider,
the current physical condition of the horse.
I can share some of what I do with my own three yr old.
I started backing her at 2 yrs 11 months, this was after several months of 2/3x week of lunging with and without sidereins, 60'round pen, beginning with about 7 mins.
Her first few rides were mostly mounting and dismounting, learning whoa and go, gaining confidence.
It sounds like your mare is past this stage.
I let her condition show me when to slow down, I don't work her hard enough to make her sweat, when her breathing changes I slow down.
If the day is quite hot she may get a bit wet under the saddle pad but thats all.
If I am going to work circles, I keep them large,50' minimum, more like 65'. I will only work her until she just starts to breath harder.
Imho, large circles are very useful for teaching rhythm, to help the horse relax their mind as well as body. I think a relaxed horse learns much easier than a tense horse. They are useful for teaching suppling and flexing.
Whether riding circles or straight lines too much can do damage.
I don't ask for tight turns, hard quick stops, no jumping, (a bit of jumping training on a lunge line at this age is fine-but she has been preconditioned with caveletti)
I prefer to work her every other day, giving her one day between to rest.
Typically I ride,rest,longe,rest,ride,rest, rest.
Once in a while I noticed that she seemed a bit lethargic, on those days I just let her rest.
At this stage I will only ride her 30 min.
Before I take a young, or new to me horse, out on a trail I ride them in a rp or arena until I feel confident they respond well to cues, have enough confidence in me to walk over and around objects.
I liked the suggestion about serpentines to control a rushing horse.
I also agree it is better to dismount, regain focus with some groundwork and then remount rather than 'teach' bad habits.
It is good to remember that whatever we are doing we are teaching something.
Another think I do is before the behaviour starts give the horse something to do, flex this way, move off the leg that way, circle around this tree,rock w.h.y.
Every day I check her legs for swelling, or unusual warmth.
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Member:
bhmm9999
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Posted on Friday, Oct 30, 2009 - 8:28 pm:
Hi all,
My main reason for hobbling is to save my horse from a bad injury. If done properly and consistently, supposedly, the horse will wait for help if caught in fence etc. To me, it is all about trying to minimize chances for horse gettting hurt by over reacting (if it really works). I will take the advice not to rush into it before I'm prepared.
I also want to make a point that I'm not one to blindly follow one discipline or training technique. I had a rodeo cowboy break my horse, have Parelli level 1 pretty much under my belt, and am now learning Clinton Anderson--all the while taking the best from each. Frankly, I love learning this stuff and if I was younger would probably have made horses a bigger part of my livelihood. I should add that I am a video producer and created a 3-DVD set of the day-by day process of the the rodeo cowboy starting my mare. I plan to post a sample on YouTube when time permits.
Shannon, your comment is on the mark, "...they show people who are extremely green trying to train their own equally green horses." Level 1 Parelli DVDs are a classic example of green owners trying to work with green horses.
We have a few at our stable. I have watched a young lady do Parelli session after Parelli session and the horse is marginally better behaved than when it started. Is it the horses fault, Parelli's fault? I think not. While this girl is a nice person and capable rider, she will probably never progress much as a trainer. I actually feel bad for horses with owners like that and wish I could try a hand at training each and every one of them.
To everyone, I am amazed at the outpouring of good advice and am going to utilize all the great ideas. I'm going to be more careful with roundpen lunging and tight circling and work more on the many great tips for groundwork and control.
Lori, I think you synthesized what will be my new approach. Thanks for the detailed explanations. I will reread your post along with this thread many times to reinforce my training.
PS. Did anyone notice that I was the only male in the discussion? Out of 20 horse boarders at my stable--there is only ONE other guy. Where have all the cowboys gone? Why the lopsidedness?
I'm hooked and will be posting more often. See y'all later.
bob
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Member:
erika
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Posted on Friday, Oct 30, 2009 - 9:35 pm:
Ha ha, Bob! We do have "nickersiblings" who are male. Must be the strong, silent type! Dennis, Wiley, Jesse, Alden....and many others...they are on here!
If you are looking for men, it seems to me they are all fox hunting and polo-playing! At least those are the sports where I find myself outnumbered. Not many cowboys in my neighborhood, but the real men don't mind wearing breeches!
You're a good sport for taking this barrage of advice. Can be overwhelming for a newbie. But great minds to pick here. I've found this forum invaluable in many instances.
Erika
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Member:
juliem
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Posted on Friday, Oct 30, 2009 - 10:30 pm:
Great way to meet terrific women huh? Interesting that in the upper levels of showing and training, it's a different ratio of men to women. There's a discussion for the lounge!
Bob, take a cotton rope and loop it around a leg (I do all four, but start in front) and then rub it up and down, back and forth until your mare is quiet with it. Then with it around the fetlock, pull with a steady but not terribly strong pressure. The very second she gives her foot, release and praise. Repeat many times on each leg. Soon you can actually "lead" her by a leg by teaching her to yield her leg to the pressure. I've used this technique on each of my young foals and twice it has saved one that got tangled up--once in a chain link fence and once with high tensile. Both times they just stood as is they were tethered. By the way, it's a good test of a horse's temperament. The ones that go home with me are the ones that don't freak out, but that get the idea right away. It works especially well when the foals aren't halter broke to see what kind of mind they have.
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Saturday, Oct 31, 2009 - 9:39 am:
Julie,
Your method with the ropes is the way I like to get a horse used to their legs having pressure on them. Also at a later time in ground driving I will help "wrap" the horse up with the lines, (soft ropes, not webbed nylon) and ask him to stand quietly while I "unwrap" the lines. I'd rather do that in the arena than have it happen ground driving on the woods trail and the horse panics from a deer jumping up and we find ourselves wrapped around a tree and it just gets worse! (experience talking again, lol!)
Linda,
I agree with the use of force not working! Nope, would not consider trying to sit on a horses head these days, but I admit to doing some dumb things earlier in my life. Lucky to have never been seriously hurt.
Some cowboy once wrote that sitting back to produce a sliding stop was counterproductive; and whoever it was, he was winning with the sliding stops but his method was different. He kept his weight forward more I thought, and perhaps out of the saddle?
It may be Parelli who got me doing a halt/slow down by stopping riding, vs sitting back. I THINK the theory is that sitting back, the horses back gets hollow, whereas stopping riding, you keep the horses back up? Maybe it was something his wife showed?
I am sure both methods work, as always, remember each clinician interprets training in his or her way.
Bob, can't wait to see the videos!
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Member:
bhmm9999
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Posted on Sunday, Nov 1, 2009 - 1:10 am:
Julie, I began utilizing your rope around the leg technique today and was pleased at how easily my mare gave to the pressure as I gently pulled her along. Yes, great place for a guy to pick up chicks ; -}.
Angie, how are you wrapping the horses legs up? Are you tying them or loosely wrapping around legs with no knot?
I'll post link when the video is on YouTube.
Thanks, bob
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Sunday, Nov 1, 2009 - 10:45 am:
Bob,
I apologize for a bad choice of wording there. NO NEVER TIE ROPES around your horses legs!!!
Let my try again to explain what I mean:
Have you brought the rope around her butt, and gently asked her to give to pressure? Just lead rope on her halter. So that she turns then while moving away from the rope? Pretty sure Clinton & Parelli show that.
Stand at the horses left side, walk around to the right, draping the rope over her rump, and then ask for her to come around when you apply pressure to the rope. I am sure by now she has done that, and is calm with that. Or stay on her left side, and put the rope over to the right side; both methods reinforce standing quietly.
This is what meant: I will carefully circle the horse, and "wrap" the ropes around..not necessarily the legs, might be around the body, or let the rope up under the saddle blanket, or gently under the tail. All slowly & calmly. I want the horse to stand and accept the ropes, and then wait the while I undo the ropes.
Again, I apologize for saying "wrap" I was thinking like a Christmas present, lol!!
IT is much SAFER & Easier to do this with ONE longer soft rope (12-14')...just adding to what Julie said suggests above. Take it slowly.
My cowboy mentor taught me about ground driving. He said be careful of the lines, and make sure I didn't get my feet tangled up in them. He also said if the horse ends up getting "wrapped up" in the lines, let 'em be wrapped up. Just let go of the lines, and don't get hurt.
My first attempts at ground driving resulted in me going across the snow covered corral on my backside, rope around my leg. And my mare getting severely burned (webbed lunge line) around one fetlock from getting, um, "wrapped up."
Doing all this rope/line work before you actually start ground driving, round pen work, or riding, will hopefully prevent any accidents. And if something does happen, ropes get tangled up, it's not new to your horse.
Somedays it seems that thoughts of mine just don't come out right on paper!  Old age?!?
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Member:
savage
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Posted on Sunday, Nov 1, 2009 - 3:54 pm:
Hi Bob and welcome to this wonderful site! if you don't mind I would like enter my 2 cents as well. I had a wonderful guy to start my horse education. from the day he was born we started getting to know each other. Before I was able to ride him we walked and talked all the time. I would get him out and brush him, touched him all over, we did this all the time, we walked around the ranch, when he saw something and perked up I kept the reassuring voice that the monster wasn't going to hurt him, like the rope that dragged on the ground or the escaped plastic bag that once carried carrots
Through the first 3 years we would go over tons of stuff, I made it fun for him. I would walk him on the left, then walk him on the right. I put my jacket over his neck as I was brushing him, hang on to a plastic bag while petting him, we would go grazing or I would drive him down the trail for a bit so he could see all the things out there all the while I talked to him, telling him what a brave boy he was, giving his pats to assure him that he had done well. Over time he learned that I was the one who he could trust ALL the time.
we walked over bags, tarp, wet spots, moving leaves, etc..what ever presented itself we tackled it, even putting the plastic bag over his nose.
when it was time to get on him he was not upset at all, I saddled him, got on, walked a bit, then got off and walked him fully tacked down the trail for a bit, then stood and watched things, in this process he learned to stand still, back up, let me touch him with anything or do anything, he was enjoying all of it without stressing his growing body, the building of TRUST was starting to really sit deep within him of me
Now how does all this play into finally getting to hit the trails...well he knew he could trust me and when the day came when we were ambling down a "very narrow" trail we came across a monster! oh it was a terrible one too! a blanket!! it laid there like a snake getting ready to strike, he froze and started to blow out his nose, his 15.2 size tank body grew large and he started to get nervous, he swung his head left and right, " how do I get around this thing that is going to swallow me!!!" he says. I sat still one rein in each hand with one hand holding the horn as I knew not what this critter was going to do..there we stood, I would not let him back up..we stood there for a long while and then it was time..." I said oh brave one you can do this, mom won't let it hurt you..I squeezed with my legs and WALA! he stepped onto the monster and it didn't move, he continued to walk on and then he let out a sigh of relief, "mom was right!, she didn't let it get me!"
The point of this long and windy mouth full is do lots of ground work, make it fun...change it day to day...saddle up go for a short ride..not long though and watch out for holes, dips, slants etc keep her on the straight.
I know you can't wait, but what you do in the waiting period will make for a better trail horse that you will have tons of fun with. Don't rush the getting into the saddle to fast and take chances with hurting her bones,etc. Time is on your side and in a very short time you will look back on what you did on the ground and allowing her to mature enough to enjoy her rides without injury will make you smile!
P.S. all the ground work with handling, touching with different things will also make it much,much easier if there should (and there will) be a time that a vet needs to help her.
ok off my soapbox now
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Member:
bhmm9999
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Posted on Monday, Nov 2, 2009 - 1:34 am:
Hi Linda,
Gosh, the posts here are well-written. Your short story just brought a smile as you took me down the trail...rapt in suspense.
We are kindred soul in our approach.
I digress...
Starting a horse is unlike any training I've done (e.g., canine). I finally understand that from the young horse's point of view--life with a new owner is a lot like the criminal justice system in Mexico (hang in here with me)...you are guilty until proven innocent.
Your story is all about how we prove our innocence in the horses eyes--that our intentions are of good. With that comes trust and with that a horse will do much.
After 4 months of nearly daily contact she is doing things that tell me I've proven my innocence. Like your monster blanket, today, she stopped dead in her tracks at a scary tree with low hanging branches and no way around. After I turned to pet her and give her the reassurance, she gingerly, trustingly walked right through. She did the same thing later when I made her ride over a man-hole cover on the street.
The coolest thing was when I directed her to jump over a barrel that she refused several times and today she jumped over with confidence.
So rest assured, The proof is in the results. I was talking today with 2 owners at my stable and one said her horse still refuses to cross a trickle of water, and another said his horse backed up so bad at a bridge he almost went off a sharp embankment. I've already lead my mare over the bridge with only minimal resistance. Makes me realize how few truly understand that if they can't get control and respect on the ground--they won't get it in the saddle.
I am staying the course for gaining respect and trust on the ground and taking my time doing it. BYW, Exposing my horse to as many monsters as possible is my mission--She has passed--crinkly water bottles, plastic bags, drill noise in her ear, tarps flapping in her face, etc.
Following the advice of many who responded to this post, when I am in the saddle once or twice a week, it will be for low impact training and short reward rides on trials.
Thanks again for your 2 cents worth.
Bob
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Member:
bhmm9999
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Posted on Monday, Nov 2, 2009 - 1:38 am:
Angie,
Thanks for clarifying we aren't doing any tying. I have already done much of what you have described.
Thanks for the great possts.
bob
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Member:
savage
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Posted on Monday, Nov 2, 2009 - 9:48 am:
Hi Bob, glad to hear that you are doing lots of ground work, it's so important. If you continue you will have success in your trust between the two of you, one thing to remember, when a horse gets really scared and it tenses and it's ear are forward they will not "hear" you..they are a fight or flight animal so talking to sooth is very important, and don't get upset or yell or you both could be in deep trouble.
one other note, I personally would NOT ask this youngster to do any jumping over barrels, or anything else, her knees are not set yet and it could cause irreversible damage, or worse.
you might also want to get a book on horse psychology, it will help you to learn how horses think and perceive things and with that knowledge you will be able to converse easier and understand why they do and did what they did or do. Such as their vision does not work the same way ours does..so something benign to us might be terrifying to them which might cause unpredictable results.
ok a silly for the day...my horse and I were bonded like you wouldn't believe, when I took him out to be brushed and readied for a ride, IF I walked away, lets say around the corner to get something he would untie himself and come looking for me, I would turn around and there he would stand dragging his lead as if to say, are we going out for a ride or what?? silly boy!.
Have a wonderful day and enjoy your precious little girl
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Monday, Nov 2, 2009 - 11:04 am:
Bob,
I kinda figured you had done much of what I wrote about already. You are on the right trail (ha ha) and I think you 2 are going to be just fine. You sound kind, thoughtful, and have your horses best interests in mind.
Enjoy,
Stay Safe,
Ang
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