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Discussion on Sweat The Small Stuff
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Member:
lhenning
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 4, 2009 - 4:17 pm:
In my quest to learn about this fascinating creature called "horse", I stumbled on something interesting I want to share. Not only share, but hear others thoughts and experiences too.
It began this past summer when I wrote about my problems doing the posting trot. My horse would only trot one speed, a slow jog. The advice given was that I needed to get after my horse to make him speed up and maintain the posting trot. I realized I hadn't even noticed him slowing down because he did it very subtly.
Then I saw an episode of Julie Goodnight's TV show and she was helping someone with a mare that had some "attitude". The mare would balk at the trail and not move forward. Julie recommended the rider work in an arena and make her mare move in exactly the direction she said, and at exactly the speed she dictated because she said the mare did not think she had to do what the rider said. We've heard that before, but it made me think of my horse and question if I let him move his way without realizing it, thus giving him the "attitude" I so often see in him.
At this same time, I began reading the book "Animals in Translation" by Temple Grandin. In it, she talks about animals being very good at details. She said they see the tiniest changes that we humans tend to overlook. I immediately thought of the two situations above and put this together.
In human relationships, we learn "Don't Sweat The Small Stuff". In other words, we should overlook some of our faults with each other so we can get along better. But in the world of horses, the small stuff is very big stuff to them and should be noticed by the rider. Tiny infractions from the riders choice are seen as moments where the Captain is no longer running the ship. (We do not want the horse to run the ship, this I already know lol!) What is most interesting to me is how tiny the infraction can be, and how easily I was overlooking it.
In a short amount of time, I've noticed several moments where the shift of his direction was ever so slightly different from where I pointed him. Shorter in distance than where I had intended him to go, so that much easier for him. Something I did not really notice unless I had a firm target in mind.
What I really want to hear from others are the different situations you've encountered where your horse noticed something small and capitalized on it. Some examples, if you will. Any thoughts or comments are greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Linda
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Member:
stek
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 4, 2009 - 6:36 pm:
Linda, interesting topic for discussion; I would agree that horses absolutely do 'sweat the small stuff'!
One huge example is how quickly and consistently positive reinforcement needs to come in training in general. If you reward the behavior you want / release pressure at exactly the right moment most horses get what you are after almost immediately. Hours of drilling the same stuff over and over is not necessary if you are exact in your communication.
Another place I see the tiny details being really important is in herd politics. My 6 horses live out as a herd and I work with them in that environment on a daily basis, with everything from feeding to doctoring to trimming feet etc.
When I am feeding, each horse has their own spot, and they are not allowed to harass each other or push each other off their feed. I do respect and feed in their natural pecking order, but the herd boss is not allowed to discipline others in my presence; it's my job while I'm with them to be the herd boss.
If I'm grooming a horse, the others also aren't allowed to pester us while we are working; my own bubble extends to include the horse I'm working with at the time.
Another way I reiterate that I am herd boss is by moving horses out of my way when I am going from point a to point b with a purpose. They can tell the difference between me just ambling through the herd giving out scratches and me walking more purposefully, and if the purposeful walk is there they need to move their booties.
Another thing on the same vein is basic ground manners. If I ask a horse to stand still, they better not move a hoof an inch, or snatch a bite of grass. That first creeping forward of one hoof is the first step towards having a horse that walks all over you.
It really is all in the details!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 4, 2009 - 7:04 pm:
FME it really depends on the horse, their age, and especially their personality.
I do much as Shannon in the herd situation, when I'm present I'm boss...for safety sake more than anything.
When riding a "well broke" horse I like them to share their opinions with me...sometimes they are right. Then there is the Hank type.. give him an inch and he takes a mile...I do have to be very adamant with him about what I want, he sounds very much like your horse Linda....I'm hoping someday that won't be the case.
A young horse just starting training most definitely should learn about details, they should be "wrote a book" about what is acceptable and what isn't.
I think part of the fun of owning the horse and riding is their opinions and or personality. I believe it has to be guaged as if they are being naughty and trying to "get away" with something....or their personality is shining through.
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 4, 2009 - 7:09 pm:
Horses use such subtle language amongst themselves; a look, an ear back, and they are so sensitive to movement, touch, etc. It makes sense that they are very sensitive to our slightest movement, weight shift, tone of voice, hand position. When you ride a very well trained horse consistantly, it is like you and the horse become one being. You aren't even aware of giving the horse cues; you think something and the horse does it. Yet, you are obviously giving cues, they are just so slight and so automatic that you aren't even aware of them and anyone watching wouldn't even see them. If you aren't the normal rider, or you don't ride for awhile then come back to the horse, you can cue the horse inadverdently. A very slight shift in seat bone and suddenly you have a done a flying lead change when you weren't expecting it!
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Thursday, Nov 5, 2009 - 7:04 am:
Fantastic discussion Linda. And so very true. I know I have days where I go through the motions of feeding & giving everyone a quick once over, being preoccupied with my thoughts of what else I feel I need to be doing. Those are times that one of the horses, usually Tango, will give me a nudge as if to say "Hey give me a minute of your time." If I tell him to get, he comes back. Cody will go by and squeal and kick up, really getting my attention! If I then stop and relax, and get my thoughts on them, then all 4 come over and say hi. They pick up on our moods which is not physical to us, but they see the tiny physical things we are doing that say what mood we are in. And say if they are welcome to visit in our space or not.
I always feel if there is an issue between horse and human, it's the human not understanding what the horse is communicating. The horse wants a leader, the horse wants a bond with the human. Sometimes we just need to stop "training" and going for the end result, and just "BE" for a bit. Works with people too!
Those horse whispers and clinicians who seem to work magic with horses, they have the natural ability to pick up on the smallest tries the horses make. I think we all can be trained to see those, but I think some have a natural ability to see, and feel, those changes in the horse.
I know I have to "in the zone" to work with a horse and I CANNOT tolerate outside distractions. Nobody watching, no dogs running or cats playing. I just never thought of it as "Don't sweat the small stuff" but I will from now on, very easy tip to remember.
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Member:
canter
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Posted on Thursday, Nov 5, 2009 - 7:40 am:
There's no question in my mind that they do notice the small stuff & will use it to their advantage...my mare is very good at sensing my energy level. Not only positive or negative energy, but simply my lack of energy after a difficult or long day. My routine to ride is exactly the same as I get ready and I always give her a loose rein as we start our warm up. It's when I pick up the reins and move into a trot that I know she is taking advantage on a low energy day. She will lazily drag herself into the trot and trot off in the most unacceptable manner imaginable (not pushing from the back end, hollow back). Just when I need her to reduce MY work load, the big bugger takes advantage....those are the days when I have to work harder to get quality work from her. Conversely, when I have plenty of energy, her work is sharper and more correct.
I don't ever see a difference in her ground manners. She's always polite but not the most affectionate horse to be around, but on the "bad" days, when I'm getting her ready to go back out, she does tend to be a bit sweeter, resting her nose in my neck as I roll up wraps or brush off her face. Not sure if she's saying "sorry, Mom" or "Ha! Got away with it!"
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Member:
maggienm
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Posted on Thursday, Nov 5, 2009 - 8:27 am:
Linda, great observation. I think sometimes we think we are just being kind by not insisting on that extra couple of steps into the corner or yeah its ok if he has a look, but I agree that is where it starts.
If they get away with one they will try two.
Well said Shannon.
Sara, hehe, I'll t
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Nov 5, 2009 - 9:27 am:
For the past few years we have regularly taken a friend of ours up to the mountains to ride. She is not a experienced horseman but we have horses that are well trained and brought up my children on their backs so feel OK about this.
Francine has started feeling a bit more secure on the back of the horse, so when the horse would pick up a canter she would allow it, even encourage it. We pointed to her several times it is important to be sure what Coco does should be at the rider's discretion and not the horse. But she really enjoyed those cantering freely episodes and by Sunday she reaped what she sowed. We were about a half mile out from the cabin and Coco knew it. He starts off at a light canter and Francine knowing we always walk the horses in tried to check it only to get a gallop. We did not catch up with her until we got back to the cabin.
This is a gross example of the principle but it is true that so often we fail to recognize exactly who is doing what and many horse faults come from this confusion.
DrO
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Thursday, Nov 5, 2009 - 10:34 am:
Exactly right, Dr.O. Angie, you are right about them wanting our attention and knowing when they aren't getting it,too. When I think about it, it amazes me they put up with so much from us as I'm sure they often think we're a bunch of bumble headed dolts! 
Fran, horses are amazingliy intuitive about our moods and feelings and health. The are able to pick up on these the minute you walk into the barn. Some horses will be extra sweet and kind. I've had them put their head on me and sniff me all over and kind of give a "horse hug" with their head and neck. There are others that take full advantage of the opportunity. I've had horses that I wouldn't handle on days when I didn't feel good. Other days I got along fine with them. I think it just depends on the horses' personality....not too different than people in that regard.
I think most of us have an innate ability to be attuned to our horses. The difference between us and the "horse whisperers" is that we don't empty our minds of all the over "static" and concentrate solely on the horse. We aren't as observant and let our minds wander. I think it's a learned art to relax our minds, souls, bodies, and really pay attention to what the horse is telling us and what we want to tell the horse. There is a lot more to becoming "one with the horse" than just sitting on it's back in a balanced seat.
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Member:
lilo
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Posted on Thursday, Nov 5, 2009 - 11:04 am:
What a great discussion. I know for one that thinking extraneous thoughts when working with horses can lead to accidents.
It is hard to do sometimes - so much to do, so little time. But it pays to forget all that and just focus on your horse and the task at hand - that is part of the therapeutic effect of working with our horses. Being attuned to the messages they send us - whether we are riding or working with them on the ground.
DrO - at least Francine did not come off on her fast trip back to the cabin .....
Lilo
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Member:
erika
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Posted on Thursday, Nov 5, 2009 - 11:49 am:
Very good stuff! I, too, have noticed that the best riders are very technical riders. Yes, there are horses that are very forgiving, but mine are not among them.
I've noticed that many of our behavior and training problems that we have discussed here come from using a "big picture" approach that humans get, but horses may not. We are always reminded to break the job into tiny parts and work one step at a time.
I am guilty of having spoiled Cleo when she was just a little foal, and if I don't insist on perfect ground manners now, before I know it, she is using her head like a cannonball and trying to herd me where she wants to go! Her mother would never take such liberties, but if she is not cued with consciousness when mounted--well, good luck, you're in for quite a ride!
Funny how one is the opposite of the other. Just like us, I guess.
Erika
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Thursday, Nov 5, 2009 - 7:47 pm:
This is a wonderful discussion for a person like me. I am very intrigued with the detailed descriptions and appreciate them. It helps me visualize. Vague comments like "Don't let them get away with pushing you around" don't really help me too much, because I sometimes don't know what is really meant by "pushing me around". I have "kept" horses for ten years, but not really ridden much until the past year. I feel like I "know" their personalities and what liberties I can take with each one; however, I have never had formal training. I ask a million questions from my farrier, vet, horsey friends, etc. So these posts are a good heads up for me not to be too careless. And remind me to be focused, with a plan, before I get on. Diva mare is not one that a person can just get on and be in a fog. She will take advantage and go where she wants to go at the speed she wants to or just quit. She would never, ever run away at a gallop however. She is always grateful when speed is reduced or she hears whoa! Part of the reason I bought her was the whoa factor!
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Thursday, Nov 5, 2009 - 8:13 pm:
I practice my leader among the herd most often at the evening feeding time. Windy is a pig and the alpha when it comes to who eats first and the most. He will inhale and take someone else's if he can. I stand somewhere in between him and Shorty when they get their meager pellet ration. When I do, they both slow down and eat slower knowing that I will not tolerate Windy taking Shorty's feed. Windy will try EVERY time to step past me to get to Shorty even if it's just one hoof raised, just to see if I'm paying attention. I stop him in several ways. Verbal no. Or say nothing and just shift my weight and turn my shoulders so they are more square to him. Or make intense eye contact and raise my right hand in a stop sign gesture. I always make them leave the stalls when I put the hay in the feeders so they aren't "molesting" me by trying to reach around or stand too close when I'm in a corner. they stand at the open door way begging to be allowed in. When I kiss they are allowed in or when I step away from the feeder and am at the door. They are very good about standing absolutely still when I have them in the wash rack which is a little like a stock. However, if they are just tied they do dance around a little bit if they are getting cold hosed.
I would love to have an experienced horse person just watch me for an hour while I'm around the horses and have her tell me what she sees me doing or not doing correctly.
One problem I have with Diva mare that I haven't attacked yet is her refusal to take paste wormer. The vet said just put it all on a small bit of pelleted feed. So I do, and she cleans it up. She has to be sedated to have her teeth floated. She just doesn't seem to like stuff crammed in the back of her mouth. She readily takes the bit however.
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Member:
lhenning
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Posted on Friday, Nov 6, 2009 - 10:38 am:
Vicki, I think you hit the nail on the head for me. I too have been learning and hearing "don't let them get away with anything" for years. It's taken me this long to really understand what that means. . . or at least to question it on this forum.
I think what you describe at feeding time is a very good example. If you sway from your rules even a little, you are leaving them open to take advantage of the situation. A little bit today, a whole lot more tomorrow. I see this happen at the boarding barn.
Everyone, I am learning from all your posts! What funny, lovable creatures these horses are, but they are smart buggers too! I wonder if they stand around the pasture and hay piles and compare notes.
Have a great day,
Linda
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Member:
terrido
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Posted on Friday, Nov 6, 2009 - 7:13 pm:
Fabulous topic and a huge one. But as to sweating the small stuff, yes to some degree or other the horse will need you to pay closer attention to detail. They do, and expect us to do the same... usually we don't.
But that being said horses are different. My Tb isn't too picky really, "close enough" works fine for him. My little mare though, well with her I have to use precision. LOL Right down to if I ask her to stand still, and she starts to move a foot, I have to be sure I get her to put that foot back exactly where it began or all bets are off. She is that picky about things. I discovered it by accident, but for her being precise makes a huge difference. I use this of course when working with her on the ground I just have to be sure to get her footies right back in the same spot, etc. and she is super cooperative. Under saddle she is much calmer (luckily for me the dressage person) when we ride precise patterns. If she gets upset, I simply ride a precise pattern or two and she starts to calm down right away. Of course when riding though she also demands precision in aiding, tho she will accept a 'close enough' once in a while. It makes me a better rider on the technical level, and on the ground it makes me pay closer attention to everything. And now of course I pay closer attention with all the horses I work with.
For you guys that have heard the 'don't let them get away with anything' routine and were confused about that, don't worry you are not alone. Many people don't get that. It's pretty simple actually, the horse learns something the first time; and you are training your horse every moment you are near them. Be it good, bad or indifferent, every moment you are training them. So it is best to know this and be on your toes or at least watch your toes. LOL I teach my students this on day one. Consistency is key, even if your timing sucks, if you are consistent that will help you and is most important. I have them think about boundaries and what they will allow, what they may not allow because it is different for each of us. Then once they have thought about it they can then enforce it with their horse(s). That way it's not too inconsistent for the horse, hopefully anyway. So many people don't think of this and one day it's ok for the horse to do X and the next day the person decides it's not ok for the horse to do X... that just confuses them.
I don't think it is so much that a horse will take advantage of us as they may test us often to see where we place the boundaries that day, or that moment. If the person is consistent they very quickly stop 'testing'.
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Sunday, Nov 8, 2009 - 11:57 am:
There is an excellent article in the Nov. issue of Equus on breathing techniques while riding which talks about how much even the way you breath can affect your horse. It's well worth the read. It might also be on line at:www.equusmagazine.com
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