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  Discussion on Training/dressage and hyperflexion
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Member:
vickiann

Posted on Thursday, Nov 5, 2009 - 3:59 pm:

If you go to the site below you can watch the video (and others) described in the article printed under the following link.

https://epona.tv/uk/news/show/artikel/blue-tongue-video-faq/

From "The Horse."

Controversial Dressage Training Method Under FEI Investigation
by: Jennifer O. Bryant
November 03 2009, Article # 15209
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Responding to public outcry following the Internet posting of a video showing an international-level dressage competitor warming up a horse using a method some call inhumane, the Fédération Equestre Internationale (FEI) has launched an investigation.

The so-called "blue tongue video" shows Swedish Olympian Patrik Kittel riding the Grand Prix-level Dutch Warmblood stallion Scandic at the CDI Odense, Denmark, in October. The competition was an FEI-recognized competition and a 2009-2010 Western European League FEI World Cup Dressage Final qualifier. Video shot at the warm-up arena shows Kittel riding Scandic in apparent "hyperflexion," in which the horse's neck and poll are flexed longitudinally such that the nose is low and near the horse's chest. Dressage enthusiasts were particularly outraged to see Scandic's tongue lolling out one side of his mouth and with an apparent blue tinge, which some attributed to inhibited blood circulation caused by the method of riding and the strong bit pressure. In the video, Kittel halts the horse, leans forward, and adjusts the tongue before continuing on.

Kittel and Scandic placed third in the competition.

Hyperflexion (sometimes referred to as "rollkur") has been decried by some as contrary to established principles of correct, humane dressage training. Among the most outspoken critics is German veterinarian Dr. Gerd Heuschmann, who produced a book and a companion DVD entitled Tug of War: Classical Versus "Modern" Dressage. He writes that, in hyperflexion, "enormous tension is placed on the upper neck muscles and ligament system, and the back. While the horse's back does 'rise,' it is overstretched and tense, which restricts the hind limbs' ability to step under the trunk. The result is an uncomfortable, unhappy horse that is on the forehand with trailing hind legs, and unable to truly collect."

Although horses are not shown in a hyperflexed outline, some riders use it while warming up, believing that it supples their horses.

The trend toward hyperflexion took hold around the 1980s, when German dressage competitors Nicole Uphoff and Isabell Werth won Olympic gold aboard horses allegedly schooled using the method. More recently, such stars as the Netherlands' Anky van Grunsven achieved equal success with a similar riding style.

The Kittel video controversy is not the first time that protests against the use of hyperflexion have reached the FEI. In a statement issued October 26, the FEI stated that its primary concern is the welfare of the horse and that it will publicize the results of this latest investigation when it reaches a conclusion.
Member:
kpaint

Posted on Thursday, Nov 5, 2009 - 6:51 pm:

Vicki,
I have read and watched YouTube video about dressage. I'm going to the WEG in Lexington 2010 and wanted to become a little more familiar with the discipline before I go so I can better appreciate what I'm watching. So naturally I turned to the computer first because it's close at hand. (I have never ridden English--never even been to a local dressage show.) In doing so I have run across much controversy regarding Rolkur.

I watched Totilas (sp?) and Anky and her mount post top scores in Kur. Both are accused of using Rolkur by folks who frequent YouTube. Perhaps many are not too knowledge as there is much profanity and generalizing in the comments. I did a search on YouTube a few weeks ago "Rolkur Explained" and the video which came up had great diagrams. However, I'm not sure how much is propaganda because I'm not well versed with FEI rules, the dressage discipline, etc. BUT the take away I got was many people are outraged about Rolkur and its use and/or abuse and upset that FEI has not "done something".

I have watched the video of Totilas (can't believe I can't remember how to spell that beautiful horse's name) many times when he scored 89.4 and 90.? I think it was. He looked like he was enjoying himself during the tests. But what do I know?

YouTube is full of video of top level riders and some embarrassing moments. Don't know of course how much is edited to discredit the riders?

I'd appreciate hearing from dressage HA members what they think about Rolkur and the current controversy.
Member:
canter

Posted on Friday, Nov 6, 2009 - 7:52 am:

Vicki, for those of us who are dressage "purists", in other words, believe that the classical system of training is the best way to go because it has the best interest of the horse at the core of it, we feel using Rolkur is not an acceptable training method.

I have heard that some unethical western trainers tie the horses head up in the air overnight so that by the time the horse enters the ring, it carries it's head very low due to exhaustion/fatigued muscles. Rolkur is obviously not exactly the same thing, but it uses a "gimmick" so to speak, instead of good solid training to get results in the ring.

I think the controversy over the whole thing is good - when poor practices remain in the dark, nothing will happen to change them. Hopefully, the FEI will soon take a stance against this. However, even if it does, it cannot police people's training practices at home, only at shows. Perhaps if enough riders get caught and penalized, the practice will end.

What I do worry about, in addition to the well being of the horses, is that people will make an uninformed judgement against the entire sport, and all riders, because of Rolkur. Dressage is already a little understood sport.
Member:
lhenning

Posted on Friday, Nov 6, 2009 - 12:19 pm:

Fran makes a good point. You cannot judge the actions of everyone based on a few. I have to applaud the fact we have video cameras aimed everywhere these days, and venues such as YouTube so we can all see for ourselves and make our own judgements. It is public opinion that keeps us honest.

The video turns my stomach. I keep feeling this poor horse trying so hard to please it's master and he must be one of the most obedient horses ever. My horse sure would not put up with that; I'd be on the ground in a second. How can anyone consider this training? Yet I have been told by people to get better control of my own horse I should use a stronger bit. I just can't buy that real training involves force. Never will.

So sad when people put their own desires above all else.

Linda
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Friday, Nov 6, 2009 - 12:29 pm:

Fran and Linda --

Thanks for your comments, which are very good.
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Friday, Nov 6, 2009 - 6:29 pm:

I finally got a chance to watch the video. Before seeing it, I thought the worst crimes against show horses were draw reins to force a head position: this is much, much, worse.

I thought the sophisticated world of dressage was all about being light, and being rode from behind?
Tongue in cheek, ladies!

One thing about seeing the torture that rider was putting that poor horse through; I will not question my riding any more! I AM an expert compared to that "expert." To think I've spent so much time worrying about being gentle enough...
Member:
terrido

Posted on Friday, Nov 6, 2009 - 7:25 pm:

Fran is right, the few top riders that have adopted this as a training method in dressage make a very bad name for the sport. That is why I was thrilled when Steffen Peters (my hero) won because he is a classicist and does not use gimmicks or quick fixes on his horses, he trains the slow and classical way, waits for them to be fit enough to do the movements he asks of them. 'Rollkur' is highly controversial, for the obvious reasons, but it - as so many other things are - is a "training tool" and is used to help the horse lengthen and strengthen his topline. BUT as with many tools, when improperly used, or in the case of so many today abused, it does not afford the desired result. It is definitely not a tool I would ever use. I get upset wen my horse goes above the bit and behind the vertical too much, because I know I am not riding her well when that happens. ;) Anyway it's heartbreaking for me to watch the top dressage riders of the world, most of them anyway, and not see horses moving the way they should, but indeed are all strung out behind, and giving tail editorials.

The FEI is looking into banning use of rollkur during warmups, but they cannot dictate training method. At the least it would be removed from showgrounds and that will be a step in the right direction I think. Kinda like with the 'saddle horses' the TWH their controversy around soring and things. It took forever to get that practice stopped.

For those of us that use classical methods, we are much slower in our progress maybe but the end results I think are better and definitely more beautiful to watch.
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Friday, Nov 6, 2009 - 9:12 pm:

Well said, Angie and Terrie.
Member:
dustee

Posted on Friday, Nov 6, 2009 - 9:30 pm:

I realize many years later that the instructors I had (luckily) in the beginning of my dressage years were a true blessing. I was never allowed to use draw reins, German martingales, actually no kind of martingale, no tricks, no toys. If I was to learn this, I had to learn how to feel my horse's mouth, how to use the aids correctly, and keep tension out of my body, while requesting things from my horse. My seat, hands, and legs had to work in correct unison, correct amounts of pressure - - releases - and lightness. It was so terribly difficult - and took me years of repetitive feeling to develop the magic...and it is magic. There are no short cuts. This is what I learned. So, this method - Rolkur - should not exist - as it goes against the grain of all styles of horse sports.
Member:
marieanh

Posted on Friday, Nov 6, 2009 - 10:13 pm:

The overuse of Rolkur won't stop until judges stop pinning those horses. The same can be said of the crab walk that is called a lope in western pleasure horses. What disturbed me more than anything about the "blue tongue" video was complete submission of that horse-not a partnership between horse and rider.
New Member:
fame

Posted on Saturday, Nov 7, 2009 - 10:38 am:

Well said, Marie Anne . !!
Please folks, get the book from Dr. Gerhard Heushman , he grew up with horses, riding instructor and than he studied Veterinary Science . Horsemen of thorough knowledge .
Followed by book of classical rider of Cadre Noire, Philippe Karl, Twisted truth of modern dressage . True CLASSICAL rider . You can Google to see him riding .
I think you'll all love it and I hope to hear some comments .
}
Member:
lilo

Posted on Saturday, Nov 7, 2009 - 11:32 am:

Fran - well said - dressage is already a poorly understood sport. I remember posting a link to a video of a particularly good free-style dressage ride to my riding club.

The comments I got were illuminating: people who understood dressage were complimentary, other folks thought it "looked painful for the horse". This was a Parelli student - who thought only the natural horsemanship approach could lead to a good relationship between horse and rider.

Farell - thanks for the suggestions of book titles. I am a trail rider these days, but still believe in dressage as a sport and training method. I have a great training book by Alois Podjhaski (spelling?) on how to start young horses - Rollkur has no place in the training for the Spanish Riding School.

Lilo
New Member:
fame

Posted on Saturday, Nov 7, 2009 - 5:24 pm:

Lilo, I am more of a dressage rider and I envy you for capability and possibility of trail riding . Even among the dressage training there are differences and those two books explain it very well . May people say they ride classical dressage it is not so .
i know top rider, extremely talented and beautiful to watch and before he goes to a competition he is taking "special" lessons to satisfy the Judges !!
I believe in Alois Poldhajsky - have three of his books, he opened my mind to better riding .
Yes , Dressage is a must to bring up a horse to any discipline . BUT I know nothing about Western riding and if that is done correctly I heard it is just as good and useful for horse and rider to develop .
Member:
lilo

Posted on Sunday, Nov 8, 2009 - 11:14 am:

Farell - I think there is merit to all kinds of riding disciplines, if the training is done correctly and without force. It is when riders or their trainers attempt shortcuts that things go wrong. Usually it is the desire to win at competitions that gets riders and trainers to forget about bringing the horse along slowly and develop it carefully to its full potential.

That said - I can't claim to be successful in my own training efforts. Getting a trail horse to be good and solid on the trail is actually quite a challenge. Mostly it requires regular rides, and unfortunately I rarely have the time ...

Lilo
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Sunday, Nov 8, 2009 - 1:36 pm:

I too believe that the "classical" methods are superior.

Lilo, You are right to site "shortcuts," as what gets many into trouble. Instead of "Taking the time that it takes," artificial aids substitute for real training, and the horse suffers for it.
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Sunday, Nov 8, 2009 - 3:03 pm:

The first book I ever read on horse training was called "The Schooling of the Western Horse" by John Richard Young.

There is a picture in there that sticks in my mind after 20 years. It shows Colonel Alois Podhajsky on a Lippizan, riding the paiffe, reins relaxed, and the horses head is not even close to being on the vertical!! What law is that that these people think dictates the horses head must be set such a way to have collection?!

Sorry, but the mention of the Colonel's name reminded me of that picture.
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Sunday, Nov 8, 2009 - 4:41 pm:

Right on, Angie!
Member:
canter

Posted on Monday, Nov 9, 2009 - 7:37 am:

Lilo, it's interesting that you mention someone who was into "Natural Horsemanship" didn't like the look of dressage...I can't figure out why some people think they (NH and dressage) have to be mutually exclusive. I have read many articles about dressage riders using NH to enhance the bond/training of their horse. I personally know several dressage riders who use NH method/techniques and I have set up clinics at our barn for a NH trainer (some may remember that we had Denny Taylor out last year). I watch and listen to ALL this stuff in the hopes of learning more and broadening my perspective...all which I hope will make me a better dressage rider. That said, I do not think NH is the only way to have a good relationship with a horse. It's one more set of tools, from which to chose, in what should be a very large toolbox of kind, consistent and firm training.

I guess I get nuts when people don't know a whole lot about something, but judge it based on this little bit of knowledge. It's also why Rolkur makes me crazy. As I said in my original post, it gives a bad name to everyone involved in a sport that originally developed with the well being of the horse at the core.

I'm climbing off my soapbox, now!
New Member:
luv2rack

Posted on Monday, Nov 9, 2009 - 10:32 am:

One thing I have learned in all my years of learning and improving my horsemanship is that there are no absolutes when it comes to horses. I might make an exception in this case, however. I would say that training shortcuts like Rolkur are NEVER good for the horse. It produces tension in the muscles and stress on ligaments and tendons, all of which is the opposite of the goals of good training (dressage in French). The development of a good riding horse is the same as the development of a human athlete. It takes the time it takes to strengthen muscles and connective tissues to withstand the stresses of hard work. Marathon runners don't take shortcuts unless they want to pay the price. It is not ethical nor moral to make an animal who has no say in its fate pay the sometimes heavy price of a training shortcut. I see my horses as my children and it is my duty to do the best by them that I can, so I seek training methods that make them healthier and better than they could be on their own. I find it hard to understand people who think it's okay to exploit their horses for personal gain.
Member:
lilo

Posted on Monday, Nov 9, 2009 - 10:50 am:

I am so happy to hear so many voices in favor of good training and developing a horse - mentally and physically.

Here is to horsemanship!

Lilo
Member:
kpaint

Posted on Monday, Nov 9, 2009 - 12:37 pm:

Diane, do you suppose the shortcuts by some are a result of trying to make a living in the horse industry? Or perhaps along with ego and hubris? Seems like the folks who use shortcuts have a more "horse is a tool", utilitarian outlook than say the outlook I have--"luxury pet" and I'm the custodian of this wonderful animal rather the operator of the tool! Sometimes I can't stand to watch the news on tv--all the cruel treatment handed out by humans to humans. Animal world is no different sad to say. I do hope FEI is able to curb the abuse of Rollkur on the showgrounds at least. I taught American history for 20+ years in the public schools. If you want to read some horrifying info about horse use, try the Civil War time period! Or the coal mines, etc. Of course, same could be said for people of the time period also...! It's a cruel world in pursuit of making a buck.
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Monday, Nov 9, 2009 - 12:55 pm:

Certainly shortcuts are used to hurry horses from one stage to another in a number of money-making pursuits, but I see shortcut aids also being used by pleasure riders. In some of those cases I think it is a matter of ignorance or rider fear more than ill intent. Such individuals often unwittingly can increase the danger for horse and rider through such choices.
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Monday, Nov 9, 2009 - 12:59 pm:

Vicki,

Amen to that. And a throwaway society to boot. We ended up with a cute little skeleton of a filly years ago because she was born buckskin instead of paint. I think the guy took her away from the mare too soon so he could get rid of her ASAP.

I can't even watch animal rescue shows. Or commercials for starving children either.

There is plenty of food to go around. We have the knowledge to do what is in the animals best interest. Or peoples best interest. There is no excuse, greed seems to rule.

Sorry...don't get me started!
Member:
mrose

Posted on Monday, Nov 9, 2009 - 1:40 pm:

Don't ever discount the money and fame angle. Owners with expensive horses want them performing and winning asap so they can get something for their money and their egos. This goes across the board from racing to reining. A lot of trainers know that if they don't get the horse performing, they will loose the client and the money.

The other angle, is that "so-and-so did it and won, so if I do I might win." This attitude goes across from trainers to amatures. In some cases due to ignorance; in others, back to the money issue.
Member:
stek

Posted on Monday, Nov 9, 2009 - 2:13 pm:

I think the judges bear a lot of responsibility for the ridiculousness we see in the showing environment. People do what wins, and what wins is often a hideous exaggeration of what makes sense. I'm thinking of everything from western pleasure peanut rollers with blocked tails to park horses with tacks under the saddle blanket or hot peppers shoved up their bum to make them 'hot' and flashy. Rolkur is just another 'hot pepper' IMO.

Makes me sick.
Member:
mrose

Posted on Monday, Nov 9, 2009 - 2:22 pm:

OMG Shannon, don't get me started on that one!! Having just come from Arabian Nationals I could write a book. Really frustrating. One reason I switched to working classes is the way the horses are going and winning in the pleasure classes. In spite of new rules, the 4 beat lame looking gait that passes for a lope is still winning and I won't even go into some of the head sets. It makes me rage!
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Monday, Nov 9, 2009 - 3:08 pm:

A friend of mine rescued a Polish Arabian colt who was potentially going to be "put down" for being born with "too much chrome."

He ultimately became the favorite dressage horse of a rather high-level professional who wraps his legs anyway when performing with him.

I've been at Arabian shows seeing what was done on the outside and sometimes INSIDE the arena by idiot handlers, and will confess to once having screamed for one of them to be removed and disqualified by the judges for endangering a horse just to make a point with him. The judges did "excuse" him from that competition, but I shudder to think of such a lovely animal having to be in the care of such a mean and vicious trainer.

And I've seen too many dull-eyed horses with their ribs and hips sticking out whose owners apparently thought that they could live on a few blades of grass.

It is enraging and sickening.

Such individuals do not deserve to own or handle horses.
Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Monday, Nov 9, 2009 - 5:48 pm:

Sara,

So, I am not the only one that thinks that lame looking lope looks terrible. I could never understand why this particular gait was encouraged. It certainly did not appear to be a 'pleasure' for the horse and I am not even sure it was a pleasure for the rider.

Rachelle
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Monday, Nov 9, 2009 - 7:05 pm:

I thought the lope was meant to be a ground covering gait which a horse could do for miles, comfortable for horse and rider. Not a stumbling gait in which the horse and rider look like they are both going to go over end for end! I'd hate to ride that gait, at that speed(?) if I had to get some place!

Sara,

Do they still ride western horses with the horses noses inches from the ground, reins so loose you could jump rope through them?!

How the heck are the horses supposed to see where they are going?

My mentor and I used to discuss these "show ring things" and he felt, as I do, that common sense had been lost a long time ago when it came to what makes a good horse, and good horsewo/man, in front of judges. (Not HA members of course, and of course there are many out there who feel like we do about this.)

Regarding the flapping reins, I always wondered what would happen if Mr. Show Horse spooked, and the poor riding is left reeling in 4' of reins before making any contact?! Picture that.

I remember test riding a beautiful palomino mare years ago when we were first married, and we were looking for nice husband horse. She walked nicely, shuffled along at a trot, and did that horrible lope! The owner was really proud of what draw reins had taught this mare.

We passed on her because A) she had no trail experience. B) I had no clue if she could be UNtrained out of those slow bumbling gaits. ??
Member:
canter

Posted on Tuesday, Nov 10, 2009 - 7:37 am:

Angie, at local shows, I have still seen (as recent as last year), that 4 beat lope with the horses nose on the ground and reins flapping in the breeze. As my BO's daughters excelled in the western discipline years ago, I've asked her many questions about this because to my eye, it's not a pretty picture at all. Apparently (and I'm paraphrasing off memory, so forgive me if I don't get this exactly right), the sport calls for a balanced horse, clear 3 beat lope. What I see is a lot of horses clearly on their forehand, and shuffling. According to BO, and what I saw at the local shows, it all depends on what the judge is looking for...and often what they pin is NOT what is called for in the rules. I have heard that the trend has started to reverse, but have not been to a western show since last year so don't know. One can only hope.

And I did see one rider and her horse get caught up in all that rein. The horse was protesting a too tight chin chain (don't know what it's called) in the warm up. Shaking it's head and balking. People called out to the young rider to check her tack, but she and her mother rudely snapped back that they knew what they were doing. When they entered the actual class (a walk, trot, canter class), many of us could see an accident waiting to happen, and my friend warned her daughter in the ring to stay away from the pair. Sure enough, the horse blew up and some of that rein got caught around the riders arm as she came off, just for a second or two before the horse bolted off. Fortunately, she only got her should wrenched a bit and the horse was OK. Hopefully, the brat and her mother learned a lesson.

Anyway, I guess that in any discipline, there are riders that care more about winning than the well being of their horse. It's very sad, but due to human nature, I'm sure it will never change. For the rest of us, we can only refuse to play "dirty" and take great pleasure in knowing that what we have accomplished is due to a true partnership and not pain and fear.
Member:
mrose

Posted on Tuesday, Nov 10, 2009 - 11:31 am:

It's bad enough when they do this with Paints and Quarter Horses, but with Arabs it is especially terrible imo. I don't even know how they get an Arab to move this way it is so unnatural. (I probably don't want to know how, either.) It is totally against the rules, yet some of these horses are still winning. Awful!!
Member:
kathleen

Posted on Tuesday, Nov 10, 2009 - 12:19 pm:

I went to a horse class at a college in Cheyenne, Wyoming. I took Mona as 2 yr old to expose her to different things. They taught grooming, did training in a trail type setting ,had some class time, etc. During the class, the instructor showed a video of a Quarter Horse at a show. He said that this was the way you want your horse to move. As I watched the video, it appeared to me that the horse was doing a 4 beat lope. I brought this up to the instructor and he said no that was not the case. The rest of the students agreed (most had brought Quarter Horses to the class). The instructor said that the 4 beat gait was not allowed and that this horse was not doing it. In trying to prove it to me, he slowed the video until we could see the actual footfalls and - surprise - he was doing 4 beat lope. The instructor didn't know what to say. My question was that if I could see it, then a judge should be able to see it, and if it is not allowed then why was the horse placed in the class (obviously a rhetorical question). I know why, but how could an instructor versed in Quarter Horse showing have missed this. If he knew it was happening, he would not have slowed the video to try to prove to me that it wasn't happening. So this example shows that some ignore the rules, some don't recognize an infraction of the rules, etc, etc. How do you change something like this with so many looking at it from so many different perspectives? I would say that most owners who have trainers train and show their horses have no idea of what goes on, or don't care. Change has to come from within (in this case the Quarter Horse association), maybe with some intervention from a group with the legal ability to stop the infraction by disqualifying a rider at a show (as in the TWH move to change methods of training). I know I am preaching to the choir, but maybe by voicing these problems in public, something will be triggered that would start some change. Probably too optimistic.
Member:
shanson

Posted on Tuesday, Nov 10, 2009 - 2:31 pm:

A friend of mine who keeps up with AQHA stuff told me that they've changed their official judging standards to eliminate the 4-beat lope. I assume it will be a while before it takes hold, but is a step in the right direction. Here's excerpt from show standards:

"The lope is an easy, rhythmical three-beat gait. Horses traveling at a four-beat gait are not considered to be performing at a proper lope. The
horse should lope with a natural stride and appear relaxed and smooth. It should be ridden at a speed that is a natural way of going. The head should be carried at an angle which is natural and suitable to the horse’s conformation at all gaits."}
Member:
stek

Posted on Tuesday, Nov 10, 2009 - 3:37 pm:

Changing the show standards is a good start anyway. I wonder if there is an official avenue of complaint one could pursue to report judges that are awarding things that are not the 'ideal' according to the written rules? Like the 4 beat western pleasure lope, or the dressage horse with their nose behind the vertical.

Again I see it coming back to making sure the judges are following the rules and not awarding the wrong thing or playing politics (a whole 'nuther can of worms)...
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