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  Discussion on The dancing pracing idiot...with a new twist!
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Member:
scooter

Posted on Thursday, Nov 5, 2009 - 6:39 pm:

Was wondering what you guys make of this, it was kind of strange and I'm not sure how to interpret it.

I haven't rode Hank since my last most wonderful ride. The weather has finally changed for the best so I thought I would take Hank out in a new place I've been dying to go. Since he's been so good lately I skipped the ground work, went a couple circles in the arena to get a feel for his disposition today, and he was VERY good and compliant.

Off we went to the new place, I could tell he was nervous, but not really reacting, we had to have a couple of chats, but over all pretty good, he even crossed a big creek with no hesitation. I could still feel he was a bundle of nerves and he did pull some of his old tricks. I was able to keep his mind busy and on me, he relaxed a little.

We stopped at the top of a big hill and I let him stand there and gather his thoughts, calm down, ect. I did NOT let him graze..for many reasons! before the turn for home.

YUP the ride home was not enjoyable! He was wound as tight as a spring... I did mange not to get scared and concentrate on the things we have been practicing when something like this may pop up.

We did leg yields, turn on the haunches ect ect. it did help some, but I could tell he was getting a little out of control, so I did a one rein stop, which he did fine, held his neck to the side to disengage that wound up back end!

When I had his head turned towards my foot (we were riding in the bitless bridle) he started doing that baby mouthing you know when a baby is scared how they open and close their mouths...I thought how weird is that!

I petted him and tried to get him to gather himself and relax, we stood on a loose rein for awhile and soon as I cued for the walk he started prancing like a wound up spring again!

SOOOOO we did the one rein stop again and he did the baby mouth thing at me again... was he just scared of the new situation and place...the baby mouth thing makes me wonder. It seemed like he was trying to cope by doing that. He wasn't quite the idiot he used to be he just seemed insecure. He did respond to all of my cues EXCEPT walk instead of prance.! Did I go to far?? After I got home and rehashed it a bit I really should have gone in the "new place" in baby steps"???.

Also when we got back I took him out to our familiar spots and he was good as gold. I did not want to end our ride like that, I must admit I was mumbling quite loudly to myself after our "ride" I did not get angry or nervous, I did not feel as if he was being dangerous as he used to be.

NOW I got it in my head we are going back out there tomorrow...should I just go until I feel his nerves kick in(if they do)...or do the whole thing over again???

What do you make of the baby mouth thing???(he is 12)! He did that 4 times on the way home.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Thursday, Nov 5, 2009 - 6:59 pm:

PS I did get him to walk about the last 500 yds. if that matters
Member:
lilo

Posted on Thursday, Nov 5, 2009 - 7:16 pm:

Hi Diane - I cannot tell you what brought on the "mouthing like a baby". I just know that if I wanted to try that ride again, I would start with ground work. That seems to have gone so well, and will give you a feel for his mental state that day.

Then I would probably not got quite as far on the ride. You handled him - he did not get out of control, so that is the good news. I know the feeling of being on a horse that is all uptight - it is not fun. So - a shorter ride, hopefully a walk home, but, if necessary with one rein stops. And then back to the arena for a positive ending. Is it possible that he was smelling something (a wild animal?) that had him all wound up and worried?

Good luck, and be careful,
Lilo
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Thursday, Nov 5, 2009 - 7:36 pm:

I thought the same as Lilo, was he smelling something, blood maybe? I brought my horses to the hydrant the other day to rinse their hoofs, and the bucket was there that my husband had put deer, um, "extras" in. It was rinsed out, but every horse had a reaction to it.

But the baby mouthing, isn't that a submissive action? Was he perhaps scared and looking for a strong leader? Sounds like you did all you could. I might have gotten off and walked myself. Sometimes we just don't know what is causing them to react, but I value keeping my neck intact, and feel no shame leading a horse home in those situations!

Maybe a big kitty was in the area??
Member:
scooter

Posted on Thursday, Nov 5, 2009 - 7:39 pm:

Thanks Lilo, tho I can not be sure I don't think ground work would have made a difference today.

I did see a den of fox(es) off to my right on a hillside there was 2 beautiful red fox laying in the grass by their den (I think it was a den anyway) that is about the time Hank started hesitating, and regressing. I don't know if that was it or not tho, there are red fox all over the place around here, I see them on the back hill quite often.

I suppose if I spotted them that easy Hank did too, I wonder if horses consider a fox a threat?? I wouldn't think so.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Thursday, Nov 5, 2009 - 8:29 pm:

Angie I must have been posting the same time as you, and you know what...you may have hit on something with the deer...WHOOPS I forgot it is bow hunting season, and where I went...through the bottom of our property and straight down towards the Mississippi....I KNOW there are multiple people that bow hunt there and about that time of day! I also know that they killed 2 deer down there 2 days ago, hubby had to go help them pull them out with the 4-wheeler...HMMMMM. As you know they gut them where they fall usually.... I wonder.( bet the hunters were thrilled with me!) Guess I won't go back there tomorrow! or I may have an arrow through me.

Believe me if I feel unsafe I will dismount, I didn't feel as if he was out of control, just terribly nervous..not the usual shenanigans he used to do. No leaps thru the air, bucks, refusing ect. Just a bundle of nerves.

The baby mouth thing still is SOOOO strange.
Member:
mrose

Posted on Thursday, Nov 5, 2009 - 9:19 pm:

This could tie in with the "don't sweat the small stuff" discussion. In this case, your horses was trying to tell you something, imo, and you were interpreting it as a behavior problem. I've had very well trained, reliable horses act as you discribe when there has been a carcass, blood, a bear, or a mtn. lion....something that in their mind was scary and a danger. The fact that he didn't bolt and head for home speaks falumes about his trust in you, imo.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Thursday, Nov 5, 2009 - 9:41 pm:

Thanks Sara, I was thinking of that post too, as I stated in it sometimes their opinions are right. That is why I was interested in what you guys thought, because I wasn't sure this time that it was a behavior issue, his demeanor was different today. The baby mouthing was weird too. I haven't seen him do that since he was a weanling.

I did feel a sort of panic about him, I'm sure there were hunters in the woods too. I NEVER ride during hunting season...I just forgot until Angie mentioned it. I wonder if Hank could sense hunters in the trees? Once we got out of there he was fine. Maybe he is still a good boy
Member:
kpaint

Posted on Thursday, Nov 5, 2009 - 10:16 pm:

I vote for the blood scent from field dressing a deer. Sounds like ole Hank knows who is really the boss in your herd. Exactly what is the baby mouthing? I have never been around a foal.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Thursday, Nov 5, 2009 - 10:51 pm:

Vicki it's hard to explain, but they stretch their necks out and they chew like chewing on a big piece of bubble gum..

Here's an explanation of it. It is a submissive gesture, but what was Hank being THAT submissive to?? He must have been terribly scared, worried or something to resort to that.

https://www.horse-sense.org/archives/submgest.php
Member:
canter

Posted on Friday, Nov 6, 2009 - 7:25 am:

Even the most perfectly, best behaved horse can get nervous over something new and different. And if there were hunters out there in blinds and/ or tree stands, there's no question that Hank would have sensed them, but maybe not been able to identify them (camo gear, scentless shampoo). Add that to the possibility of any remains that he could smell, and it could be a recipe for disaster. The fact that he was nervous and wound up, but you were still able to keep him controlled and yourself safe, speaks volumes for how far Hank has come. You've done a great job with him, Diane.
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Friday, Nov 6, 2009 - 8:00 am:

Diane,

I hope you wear orange this time of year! Even though it is only bow season here, I wear orange already and don't take my safety for granted.

I don't know how far a horse can smell something, but I bet it's farther than we can smell! And like Fran says, they can sense things we don't notice.

I hate our woods around here being full of hunters every fall. Ranger, our Chocolate Lab, disappeared for a couple of hours the other day, scared us half to death for fear he got shot. Pretty sure he just smelled a gut pile and was having himself a feast.

Opening weekend of rifle season I keep the horses locked in their stalls!

BTW, I agree that he showed a great deal of trust in you! That is wonderful!

Now, get that orange vest, hat and gloves out of storage!! They even sell orange reflector straps for horses!
Member:
scooter

Posted on Friday, Nov 6, 2009 - 8:05 am:

Thanks Fran, Interesting so this may actually have been a good ride! I was kind of discouraged with the whole thing, but you guys are right, he tried his hardest to contain himself.

I can't believe I forgot about deer hunting, I guess I was just excited to get a ride in. I know when hubby gets a deer he usually hangs in it the barn in the bottom, the horses go nuts in the pasture...blowing, snorting, and very on edge even tho they can't see it.

Maybe he was trying to tell me to get the he$$ out of there before we were shot with an arrow with his baby talking

Thank you I feel much better about the whole thing! I was afraid he was turning into a horned one again!
Member:
mrose

Posted on Friday, Nov 6, 2009 - 9:51 am:

Diane, you have come a long way with Hank, and have restructured and strengthened your partnership with him. Now you have to remember that a partnership is based on trust, and that there are times when you have to rely on the judgement of the other partner. I think Hank has shown you he's ready for you to trust him. When I'm on a horse that acts so nervously, I always open my eyes, ears and nose and pay a lot of attention to what's around me. If it's a horse I really trust, I usually change my route. If I can see what the problem is, like an elk for instance, then we proceed forward and try to work through it; if I can' see or figure out what is causing the nervousness, I take their word for it that there's some reason we shouldn't be there, and as calmly as possible go the other way.
Member:
lilo

Posted on Friday, Nov 6, 2009 - 10:10 am:

Diane - here is a story about my daughter's trusty quarterhorse (we lost him way too soon).
He was a solid enough horse to let guests ride him, even if they were only intermediate riders. A kind of been there, done that horse! Also - he was used as a hunting horse for several years before we bought him.
He surprised me one time, however. We were on a road in the mountains (I on my mare, my second cousin on the quarterhorse, plus a neighbor). We came upon a couple of hunters in full gear (orange garb, guns etc.) and he spooked. Fortunately his rider kept her seat. It just surprised me that of all things he spooked at hunters when he had been used as a hunting horse ... Maybe it brought back some bad memories?
We have foxes around here and the horses do not seem to care - some of them actually sleep under the barn at times.
I am glad you are feeling better about Hank. I have long given up riding where hunters might be.

Lilo
Member:
scooter

Posted on Saturday, Nov 7, 2009 - 8:41 am:

I did manage to get a ride in on Hank yesterday, we went where there would be no hunters. The soybean field and on the road...he was very good The boy may have some common sense after all!

When we got back from our ride the other day he was sweat from head to toe, took me over an hour to get him dried out.

Yesterday even tho he "worked" harder he only had sweat under the saddle...obviously something was freaking him out the other day, I would guess it was the hunters and the deer guts, which we wouldn't have been to far from.

I would have NEVER thought of this, glad I posted my question or I would have gone right back in there, thinking he was being a "bad boy" and we needed to work through it. The hunting season runs all the way to Jan. around here so I will NOT be trying that ride again this year. Thanks!
Member:
scooter

Posted on Saturday, Nov 28, 2009 - 2:53 pm:

I think the deer theory was right on! We are between shot gun seasons and it is soooo nice out, perfect riding weather. Got Hank saddled and thought I would start in the arena since we haven't been out for awhile. When I got on, the boy spun a tight circle and started heading for the road. He NEVER moves a muscle when I get on. SOOO I got off and got back on ..same thing.

I thought it was too nice of a day for a fight and the arena was a little wet anyway so we will go in the bean/corn/hay fields....which was where we going to go after the arena anyway. I don't normally let him get away with telling me where he WANTS to go, but hey I wasn't up for a fight!

WOW did we ever have a nice ride out in the fields, he listened to every command, no prancing, beautiful canter, very up and FUN!!!

We got back home and soon as we hit one spot, he stopped and REFUSED to go forward, once again not up for a fight and he was PERFECT on our ride. Got off and tried to lead him past that spot..NOPE.

With a little encouragement I got him to move forward...I was on the ground leading him and sure as shi$ there was the deer hide, skeleton, and head of the deer hubby shot last weekend fifty ft. away, I had completely forgotten about it.

Horse do have some good instinctual sense, I guess it is good to listen to them once in awhile.

If we go back to should we sweat the small stuff, my opinion is starting to be NO. Listening to what the horse is trying to tell us with the small stuff and trying to figure out why they are doing it, makes more sense to me.

I ALMOST decided to walk him up to it, but decided not to ruin a very good day with a possible fight
Member:
kpaint

Posted on Saturday, Nov 28, 2009 - 5:07 pm:

Good for you Diane! What a lovely afternoon for a ride.

I went for a 2 1/2 hr ride with Denny and his friend Deana. I am sure I talked both their heads off; I was so excited to be IN the saddle and with people who can tell me what I'm doing right or wrong. No nice lope from Diva however. Her "outside" lope is crummy, uneven junk. Inside, different story. But she did much better after Denny's tuning. I'll pick her up next weekend and I'm going to send her back in the middle of February for six weeks.

See?!!! I'm hijacking your discussion yakking about Diva mare and my ride... I'm just so excited to "get on with it" after a year of false starts.

So glad to hear Hank was telling mom danger was ahead, and he was not being contrary on purpose.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Saturday, Nov 28, 2009 - 5:30 pm:

Vicki hijack away Glad You got a ride in also, couldn't ask for better riding weather in Nov. A fair weather riders dream come true!

I get confused when I read about Diva and you, are you having problems with her? OR have you lost some confidence along the way and are trying to regain it?

I didn't even have to sing the Frito Bandito song today.... we're getting there!

Now if I could turn Hank into a Palomino, he would be getting real close to my dream horse!
Member:
gramsey1

Posted on Saturday, Nov 28, 2009 - 6:35 pm:

I think Hank is a pretty special TB. Can't say I've ever seen a Palomino TB. I don't think you get both. You could probably pick those fights with a Palomino Quarterhorse, and it would probably let you win.

But, you wouldn't have learned what Hank had to teach you. I do think what is "a small thing" varies from horse to horse.
In this case congratulations, you seem to have struck the right balance with Hank.
Member:
kpaint

Posted on Saturday, Nov 28, 2009 - 7:25 pm:

Diane,
Reader's Digest Version: I rode (code for passenger) when I was 14-20--mooching off friends. Then no horses until I was 42 with the exception of a ten day ride with my husband in Colorado Rockies summer I turned 40. My kids didn't "take" to horses and I did not have time to take care of all the horses myself, so four left and I kept two Haflingers. Haflingers are a hitch team. We don't ride them. They have been more pets/lawn ornaments than anything. Fast forward, last kid is going to be 18 and graduate spring 2010. I decided I was replacing kids with a saddle horse and I would have time for me and my rabid interest since I would be an empty nester. Last fall built barn. Saddle horse can before the "real" barn . First 6 mos new horse, Diva mare isn't happy at all--with the move, the geldings, me, you name it. Then we had some injury/lameness issues and hives and farrier trouble. Then I hurt myself. Add to the mix I am just now 2 yrs healed from breaking both ankles--major shatter on the right one with many pins and a plate. So. Probably the shortest answer would have been to say, my confidence issues and lack of riding/bitting knowledge. Age, lack of formal lessons, etc. Diva horse is a good horse for me in that her favorite gait is whoa and she is far too lazy to buck. I sent her to Denny for a "tune up". I felt she was too heavy (response wize), lazy, stubborn, etc. and had set her own agenda for too long. I needed a trainer to tune her up and train me. Enter HA and Denny.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Saturday, Nov 28, 2009 - 8:34 pm:

Sounds like a very familiar story vicki!

Guy Hank has quarter horse in him, but you are right it was probably the TB side being a scardey cat. He was actually suppose to be a chestnut with a flaxen mane and 4 white sox like his sire, but Hank has never done what he is suppose to do right down to his color (he does have 4 white sox tho!) I do love the boy tho, he has taught me more than all the horses I have owned put together and then some! I always tell him he is just special, he always looks at me like I know Mom when I tell him that
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Sunday, Nov 29, 2009 - 8:54 am:

Great stories ladies! I've been enjoying the wonderful fall weather too, with riding and Tango work. Snowing now...pooh. Might be done with horse training/fun til February now; with the holidays and winter finally arriving.

Vicki, Please tell Denny HELLO from us Yoopers; haven't heard from him for ages. Glad he's busy with your Diva mare, I know he's staying out of trouble anyhow, lol!
Member:
lilo

Posted on Sunday, Nov 29, 2009 - 10:03 am:

Diane - I don't blame Hank for not going past the deer remains! Glad you had a great fall ride.

But, think about it - the color of a horse is the least important aspect, in my view. Except - if I had known how hard it is to keep a light gray horse clean, I might have not bought my Moonlight. I would have missed out on a lot, though! A lot of bucking and scary rides in the beginning - plus, she managed to get me off twice ! But, also a lot of wonderful rides.

So - how important is Hank's color? Just think, a palomino shows the dirt a lot more .....

Thanks for sharing your experiences.

Lilo
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, Nov 29, 2009 - 11:00 am:

Lilo Color don't matter to me or I wouldn't have 3 bays that's for sure! I would match my bay mud with your grey mud any day... Actually Hank looks like a Buckskin today, after he sweated yesterday he thought a roll in the mud would be great for cooling out and drying up. A horse of many colors for sure!

Angie when we were younger we always waited to the snow was up to our knees to break the horses out.. doesn't hurt if you fall and the snow tends to keep them pretty quiet Might want to try a Tango ride in it!
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Sunday, Nov 29, 2009 - 11:33 am:

Diane,

I actually meant to do that LAST winter, didn't get around to it though.

Tango is doing so much better, just a little tensing up with things above him yet, mostly on that dreaded right side. If I were YOUNGER, I would have rode him out, snow or not, long time ago! Don't know why with old age, comes wisdom, and a fear of breaking ones neck!

I can remember loving rides in the snow, rain, fog, and wind! Now I'd rather sit in the house and watch the horses unless it's a nice calm decent day.

(No wonder my hubby calls me a fair weather rider, huh?!)

Right now, the snow has stopped, but it is very, very, slick in the paddock and on my track. Pray no one strains any tendons, including me!
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