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Discussion on Improving shoulder asymetry with exercise
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New Member:
bluffer
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Posted on Thursday, Nov 12, 2009 - 12:23 pm:
Newbie here, but have read posts over the past couple of years, decided to finally ask a question. And I apologize now for the length. I have a 4 yr 16.2 warmblood and I have been riding him lightly for the past year. A few months ago I noticed his saddle slips to the right, no matter the direction of a turn. I worked with coaches and was told that, "I am riding straight and so it must be saddle" I have had a certified saddle fitter come out and view him, she noted he is a little uneven in the shoulders and to really work on getting him straight when riding. She also told me to use temporary shims as his saddle fit and he will most likely change and I wont need them as I improve him with riding.
My question is, is shoulder asymmetry, which was not apparent 6 months ago, a possible result of a growth spurt an can even out(only if I ride him correctly focusing on straightness of course) or can it develop from inadequate training/riding that clinicians are not seeing when I ride, or can it be only a result of hoof uneven-ness and therefor permanent? I even competed him this summer in walk-trot classes and received 60's and 70's..I have worked so hard to do everything right with this guy as he is my first "baby" that I started and am bringing along.
I need to correct this as I am having a hard time riding balanced now, no lameness is present, no cold back, no trouble saddling, spine appears straight. But there are times my stirrup DrOps down inches and I am sitting on the saddle edge to stay centered...oh him being a bit flat in the withers is not helping of course..
Basically, if I am sliding to the right, what exercises/directions should I be focusing as I read some articles say, higher shoulder is the stiff side, other say the opposite.
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Member:
terrido
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Posted on Thursday, Nov 12, 2009 - 5:33 pm:
It may be all of the above actually.
Certainly hooves - as that affects the leg structure and how the horse moves and carries himself, etc. may well be contributory and isn't uncommon really. In fact it's one of the primary reasons horses tend to develop 'one-sided'.
That along with his growing and HOW you work him in your usual sessions. Well and you too may not be perfectly symmetrical, many of us really aren't most of us are stronger on one side too.  I giggle when my friends in western gear instantly know which way they have to adjust the saddle when I remind them 'saddle's crooked'! Sometimes our stronger leg will put more pressure on one side of the saddle and cause it to tilt.
So once his feet are set to allow him to be perfectly balanced and you rule out yourself as the primary culprit because you sit centered and balanced and still, not leaning into the stirrups then it's time to work him to rebuild the right muscling to even (straighten) him out again.
Saying 'work him straight' may not be the answer right now if one shoulder has developed more than the other. You will actually have to work him 'crooked' in a way to get the muscle mass to even out again.
What I mean is if he's got more muscle on his right shoulder (fairly common) you will have to work him going more to the right. This will build the left side up. If he has more muscle on his left side you will have to work him more going left.... Yup circles and more circles, but it also has to be good and correct work in those circles, he has to use his body right to build muscle, not just plod along.
Another thing that can cause this is having bones out of alignment in his neck too. This can help cause tension on one side, making the horse again 'crooked'.
For you if you are sliding to the right and you are certain that you aren't pushing more into that stirrup all the time, if you can actually see more muscle bulge on his left shoulder then you need to be working him way more to the right. Circles, circles and more circles. Again though it has to be "work", really working. This doesn't mean cantering or loping for hours to the right, it means making the horse engage his topline and working in an energetic walk or better a nice energetic trot with a stretched neck while riding or longing, circles to the right. I am not saying neglect the left, not at all, just double the time you go right is all, until he evens out. Then start again keeping things equal on both sides, by going both directions more evenly. You don't want to create the opposite side being his stiff side after all, you want a nice relaxed, flexible and supple horse.
An aside... I am almost ashamed to admit I had a perfectly straight horse with my little mare Bella, rare though that truly is my saddle measurements prove how straight and symmetrical she was, and I made her crooked after a bad fall because my body only worked well going one direction. *sigh* I had worked her just going one way long enough that she actually got crooked and I hadn't realized it until I had her saddle fit checked a few months later and he found one side of her back was larger. Saddle was flocked to fill in the missing back muscle on the right side, it was the right side because I was better balanced going to the right all the time. I was pretty embarrassed after keeping her straight for a few years to then have made her crooked.
I spent the next 6 months working her more going left to build up that right side again and within a few months my saddle was constantly slipping left because the right side panel had been stuffed more. I took some of the flocking out and readjusted the panel myself to make riding a bit more enjoyable. haha My saddler was impressed that I was able to do such a good job with just my hands, cause I don't have any special flocking tools, and he was also highly impressed with how I had gotten her muscling back to where she'd been in such a short time. Anyway she is once again straight and symmetrical. whew. I have just been paying closer attention to how I work her and how much in each direction. In fact both my saddler and my farrier say she is by far the straightest horse they have seen in a while. At least I know I am working her correctly and that's important for her to remain happy.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Nov 12, 2009 - 6:56 pm:
Welcome bluffer,
Hmmm...there is a lot about this post that is not quite right with the advice you have received.
Concerning the shoulder, exactly what is it about the shoulders that are asymmetrical? Have there been any front end lameness issues? Can we see a image that illustrates this asymmetry?
And I don't understand the pronouncement that you look balanced in the saddle so therefore the saddle must be a problem. How can the saddle be unbalancing you if you appear balanced in the saddle? This also applies to the shoulder diagnosis when you think about it. If a shoulder asymmetry is unbalancing you so that you fall in a particular direction, why do you look balanced when you ride?
If we assume that the saddle is visually symmetrical and assume the above asymmetry to the shoulders is the usual bit of nonsense I so often see associated with this pronouncement you should strongly consider you are putting more force in one stirrup than the other. Let me ask have you checked the stirrups for exactly the same length and do you yourself have any leg or back issues that may account for such an imbalance. Assuming my assumptions are correct I suspect as your leg, particularly inner thigh, muscles strengthen your balance will improve.
DrO
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Thursday, Nov 12, 2009 - 7:00 pm:
If a horse is consistently worked more on one lead than the other this imbalance will happen.
I also mount and dismount an equal amount on both sides so as to not strengthen one shoulder more than the other.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Thursday, Nov 12, 2009 - 7:11 pm:
There were a couple things that pop in my mind, Dr.O.'s explanation is one I have seen many times, and something that has happened to me since I hurt my knee, I put more pressure in the left stirrup, in return it has stretched more and Hank is uneven...still! I have had to put holes in my left stirrup to even me up and it is helping.
ONCE I saw a TB at the barn that had one high heel and one low one..it did unbalance him and his right side was more muscular. The difference was about an inch and was very noticeable, if you stood behind him and looked at his heels, never could figure out why the owner didn't "level" him out.
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New Member:
bluffer
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Posted on Thursday, Nov 12, 2009 - 8:59 pm:
To answer what appears to be the dominant question. The saddle slides to the right when turning to the left. With that in mind, I have been riding all week with just my left stirrup, or no stirrups to only be pushing the saddle to the left to compensate but, even with just the left stirrup, the saddle slid right. So, I then rode tonight with no stirrups, and I stopped and looked down as I felt off center and sure enough the saddle was to the right again. I end up sitting with my left seat-bone on the left edge of the saddle. So, in answer to how can a saddle be throwing me off balance..I think that's it, the saddle goes to the right, I feel it and keep adjusting to the left and end up sitting on the left side of the saddle(this is without stirrups) If I fail to sit to the left of the saddle I end up literally sitting to the right of his spine. By sitting to the left I do keep my spine in line with his, but saddle ends up 3 inches to he right! BTW, when I lunge him with no rider, the saddle ends up to the right despite it being cinched up tight.
The exercise that generates the most problems is when I am working on spiraling in. I can't keep his neck straight and his shoulders in front of the haunch..I have had 2 instructors tell me I am pulling on his inside rein, until they see me pass and that I have it actually floppy..he just hangs on it and dives onto his left front, but doesn't reduce circle size by himself like some do.
No lameness, I try to feel for heat and palpitate his back and he doesn't show any reaction, but who knows - he may be quite stoic. As for the asymmetry..it's just a slightly higher left shoulder..I can't really see where it's farther back or more forward than the other, maybe just more muscled. If there is a perfectly symmetrical creature on this planet, it's not a native in my opinion. I do know however, he has no issues flexing left...whenever he wants to look back over his shoulder it's to the left, he can flex right, just prefers the left he rests both hind legs equally and his hips seem pretty much in line(all checked while standing on flat concrete surface. He wears no shoes..super tough feet. And no club-footedness
So lets assume it's me..and that perhaps I have made him uneven through improper balance which I willing to accept it is, as I can be beaten into submission ;-) Ok, then that means no stirrups for me for awhile but his over-flexing left and going straighter to the right, should I just keep working with him going left mostly? Would lateral work such as shoulder in be beneficial or just give him a means to strengthen the wrong side more.
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Member:
terrido
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Posted on Thursday, Nov 12, 2009 - 10:21 pm:
Well it does not sound to me like you are the one that is off balance, if the saddle slides and you can remain centered, it's his body, or the saddle itself.
Stand on something behind him so you can get a decent look at his back from 'above' with no tack on. Look at his muscling comparing the sides to each other.
Look at him head on and look at his shoulders, chest and legs, etc. is he really truly "square" in front or is one shoulder higher than the other? Does one side of his chest bulge out more?
Looking at him directly from behind is his tail 'centered' or is he carrying it to one side?
Just be sure he is standing square when you look at him, or as square as you can get him. If he cannot just stand squarely that is also telling very often.
All of this will tell you more about whether it's him or possibly the saddle's need to have the panels flocked. ;]
As to exercises you want to work the opposite diagonal pair to build the muscling, so if he is higher on the left side. or more muscled on his left side then you want to do more work TO the left to build the right side. And yes lateral work would be fabulous to help.
If he is diving into his left shoulder on a left rein spiral in you can help him by asking him to carry more on his hindend and holding him with your body a bit more in front to basically prevent him from falling in. (hard to explain, hoping you understand this concept) Even having a soft inside rein then may be a detriment IF he continues to dive in, he is not carrying he is evading.
I would use lateral work to help him supple. And yes more going left rein than right to build that right side. One of my favorites is shoulder in, but anything will help. And you cannot dismiss circle work, spiraling and enlarging will make him work nicely. Just be sure he is truly engaged in his back, 'through' so your asks and half halts work through correctly. I am making an assumption you ride more dressage based on your terminology.
You can do laterals on the circle as well to supple. SI, HI, turn on forehand in motion, turn on haunches in motion, etc. all these can be done on a circle, the turns obviously more on smaller circles, tho the TOF in motion can be done on a larger circle too. It's also a nice corner exercise, ride the TOF thru the corners in the arena. Ride the TOH around a square shaped pattern too. The only big caution I give is to not do too much lateral work, he is still young and growing. So when you do lateral work keep the work extremely short in duration, just make sure the movements are done correctly. Better to ride one or two moves correctly than 20 incorrectly anyway.
If you are certain you sit centered and balanced then you are most likely not the issue, it's elsewhere, either in farrier work, the saddle itself, how your horse's body is, or the amount of work having been done one sided,or all of the above.
Growth spurts can throw a horse's body and balance off as well, and this too may be a big part of the puzzle. It can cause them to move more one sided too even when you are not on them.
Checking for where he is 'square' and balanced, where he is tense or super stiff, etc will help you isolate possible causes. A little nice body work can sometimes do a world of good to rebalance and relax a horse.
I know horses can be so flexible until they have a rider on them and they can then become like a brick in one direction. Just another thing to work on. You are his physical therapist after all. FWIW, when my saddle's right panel was over stuffed to compensate for my mare's "off" back the saddle would constantly shift to the left once she began to build muscle on the right side and it was more pronounced a shift when riding right rein than when riding left rein.
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Member:
terrido
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Posted on Thursday, Nov 12, 2009 - 10:30 pm:
Sorry forgot to add that my little mare would be straighter to the left and super flexy to the right. The opposite of normal horses, but going right rein was easiest for me so she got stiffer on her left side. Work to the stiff side to make it supple, the muscling should show to be more on that side too. My mare had more muscle on her left side (shoulder, neck, withers, back) than the right. She had a heck of a time bending to the left, so that's where we started working. Small circles on left rein and enlarging then spiraling in and enlarge again. I just continued to work double length of time on left rein than on right and did loads of 20m circles just asking for bend thru the body as well as good engagement and nice working gaits. thousands of transitions on the circle also. Just no cantering. Halt thru trot and then doing the different speeds within the gaits at walk and trot but my mare is getting pretty highly trained. With a young horse I would be pleased with a nice easy trot to a nice working trot and back to a nice relaxed and flowing trot again. No collected gaits, just stretch that neck and nose out and move from behind, I would ask for lots of hind end activity though regardless of the pace. You want nice bending of those rear joints.
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New Member:
bluffer
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Posted on Friday, Nov 13, 2009 - 10:51 am:
Will try to get a picture to upload . The asymmetry is only visible when you stand on a bucket behind him...his butts still higher than wither unfortunately, but it's square with tail hung straight..no clamping, even when moving. I hope he grows a little in the front.
I have scheduled a lesson and the coach suggests she film me..that may help. I am really thinking it's me, and the horse, and the saddle..so it's chicken or the egg...If saddle slides to the right because of his build, I twist, and after some months of this I have a bad habit probably and thus push saddle more to the right..so I am thinking shim the saddle, ride without stirrups and focus on my form. So, with that said, I shim with a towel folded into 4 layers...it helps, but then slides soon after..any better ideas for one?
I will focus on shoulder in to work on lifting the front end, but as he's long, that will be our biggest challenge, or at least after this one.
And, yes, I know long horses with low front ends are not ideal for dressage, but he has a fantastic mind and I figure I can always hope he'll even out..being 4. And if not..oh well.
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Member:
terrido
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Posted on Friday, Nov 13, 2009 - 12:41 pm:
I agree he may even out, and besides even if not perfectly conformed for upper levels he can still DO dressage and it will be good for him if done correctly. It benefits all horses when done correctly.
Hmmm yes you may well now be part of the puzzle, but you have a decent plan there.
As to shimming, I would seek out a saddle fitter to assist and possibly get the saddle flocked to fit his back. Beyond this as not all saddles can easily be flocked, I believe that "Thin-Line" makes a pad that you can add shims to for better saddle fit. Check Dressage Extentions online I know they carry ThinLine products. There is also a saddle pad and shim system by FleeceWorks, they carry this line too. (I love Dressage Extentions haha)
Good luck.
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Member:
erika
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Posted on Friday, Nov 13, 2009 - 6:27 pm:
Bluffer, does the saddle shift when he is longed in it without a rider? If not, I would suspect that Dr. O is correct that the imbalance is coming from you--not necessarily anything to do with poor riding, but most of us are not perfectly symmetrical.
I have learned that my left knees is higher than my right, and if I ride in stirrups that are the same length, my saddle invariably shifts under me. I have to let the left stirrup down, ideally half a hole, to get things to stay even.
Also if you have one side of the rider that is dominant, it can still shift the saddle without stirrups, simply from the movement of the body. I suggest these things if you find that the saddle stays put on the longe or with a different rider.
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New Member:
bluffer
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Posted on Friday, Nov 13, 2009 - 7:47 pm:
Yes, the saddle does slide to the right when I longe him with no rider. And this is one of the real reasons I am searching for answers. Because, if it only moved when I was riding in it, well then there would be little to blame but me. And, I suspect it may still be me.
I think my real question is..if my saddle is fine, per certified fitter, then it's me or horse causing the problem. I am inclined to think me, but, the fitter suggested maybe not.
She thinks it's a combination. But then, which came first - the slipping thus poor riding to compensate? And can I hope for this to possibly improve if caused by awkward growth spurt, so long as I ride correctly?
Or, is it poor riding causing a mis-shaping of the horse a bit during his growth and by mis-shape I mean - not moving as straight and forward as possible but squirrely due to bad riding.
And, with that, can I hope for improvement, take more lessons, ride with no stirrups and use a shim? Or am I looking at a more permanent problem? Ultimately, am going to start with Dr. O's opinion as 1. It makes sense and confirms a suspicion of mine. 2. In the long run, it will be easiest to correct..less expensive, and easier for me - as I understand what I am asking of myself from the start, although I know I don't not listen to myself any better than my horse does in reality.
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Member:
36541
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Posted on Saturday, Nov 14, 2009 - 7:59 am:
Have you had someone else ride him in your saddle? Have you borrowed a different saddle as a trial? Have you had someone else ride him in their saddle? What happens when you spiral in at the trot bareback? Answers to these variables might move you along in your search for a solution. A four year old warmblood of any flavor has a lot of growing left to do, so I wager you haven't seen his final conformation yet! Best Wishes... Stacy
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Saturday, Nov 14, 2009 - 8:57 am:
I just re-skimmed through this discussion, and forgive me if this was addressed but are his hoofs the same size in front? Is he weighting one more, in which case I think it would be bigger. Are the hoof angles identical, and toe & heel length the same on both friends?
Do you use a mounting block when you get on?
I have a 20 year old Arab. She has always had a bump on her left shoulder that always threw the saddle off to the right. I think it was caused by mounting from the left, a too long saddle, and improper trimming at some time in her life.
Not to scare you, but now that she is older, she really has two "bumpy shoulders" it seems, but the left is still higher.
One thing my old farrier did (I trim myself now) was leave one hoof a tad longer. I would not suggest that on a horse not done growing I don't think.
The other thing I thought of here, was when lunging, a big as possible circle would be best as he may be having some tightness on the one side. And perhaps riding lot more straight lines would be better, instead of circles.
My thinking is YOU are so conscious of this problem that you may not realize how much it affects your riding him on a circle. I just mean if you have it in the back of your mind, and your muscle memory, "Oh no, the saddle is going to go to the right" you may be "helping it" do just that!
I don't mean that as an insult by any means, just I know I did that, and when my daughter started riding my mare, she didn't fight it as much.
So many things, and it's great that you are trying to get it figured out ASAP before something gets worse. I hope it resolves itself, sometimes I think these things with horses just drive us crazy for no reason!
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New Member:
bluffer
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Posted on Sunday, Nov 15, 2009 - 11:06 am:
No insult taken! Everyone is making suggestions to help, I know that. How much of it may be in my head making me overcompensate? I wondered that myself. So I am working on stirrup-less riding and it's helping me. I am feeling the effects of the "twist" and so I need to focus on straightening me as well as the horse.
Then I am back on to - Which came first - The Slip..or the Twist! I got my coach on last night and she got through 1 - 20-meter circle and commented on just how far to the right the saddle was already! She said I should just use a no slip pad and a no slip girth and shim for a while, she seems to think any uneven-ness in him is minor, and he just needs strengthened-up and straightened, but that I need to really "ride every-stride" with him as he is a master at wiggly-ness and leaning on my hands..need to drive him up and off. She and I really searched for uneven knees or hooves..just don't see a deviation..will ask farrier when he comes out too.
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Member:
bluffer
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Posted on Sunday, Nov 15, 2009 - 11:18 am:
So after reading these posts, which have been helpful as they make think of every angle...I have come to the conclusion that my problem may very well be, "All of the above"! Clearly, the saddle is slipping on it's own, however, I have ridden in it crooked long enough to create a poor riding posture, a twist. However, the fix is not just a case of "buy new saddle" as - 1. He will change for a while and next year I could end up to the left. 2. This problem may never completely resolve with a new saddle as some horse are just not the perfect shape for saddles and so I need to be aware of how he moves as well as my posture. Besides, a saddle is not just there to hold you in place anyway, if you ride crooked than your riding needs fixed!
As for him, I he's no more "uneven" than the normal horse and I am thinking Dr. O's comment about it being nonsense is right on too, unless dealing with substantial hoof issues such as club or low heel, which, again, I find my guy to me no less level than any other I have seen. Perfect symmetry in nature just doesn't exist much..if at all.
So, I have a plan in place now and a lot ideas to keep in mind. Oh, and I ride at night, my horse is black..pictures of shoulders are therefor tough to get with our indoor arena lighting, if I get clear ones, I will post..thanks!!!
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Member:
terrido
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Posted on Sunday, Nov 15, 2009 - 12:02 pm:
Just wanted to say that I disagree on the idea of a new saddle only because I know for a fact that some saddles and saddle fitters can make ONE saddle fit and refit over and over again. Mine has been many times, in fact it gets reshaped every 6 months. Yes the TREE gets refitted to my mare every 6 months! Well, plus the panels get reshaped too as her back has been constantly changing since I got her (dec 2005). I would have had to buy probably 8 saddles by now to have them fit her. Nope, I just bought one. Ok, truthfully it's now 2, but same saddler. First one was almost too long for her short back which he warned me about when I bought it but at the time it was the best fit for us both in a used saddle of his (all I could afford then). That saddle's tree was widened every 6 months for 3 years!! Then her shoulder angle changed as she matured so I had to get a saddle that would fit her short back and give her shoulder more room to move, this time I was able to get a new saddle of his. And this new one I have had one year and it's been readjusted 3 times, and yes the tree has been widened all 3 times.
So you can buy just one saddle and have it refit to the horse (or to a new horses if needed) over and over again as their back changes.
In fact I always recommend to people to have their saddle fit checked at least once a year unless the type and amount of work the horse is doing hasn't changed and it's a mature horse, then check it every other year at the least. But for a young or green horse that is just starting into work or one that's been out of work and starting back in, you should check the fit every 6 months because their backs will be changing more rapidly.
Haha guess I should apply for a sales job with my saddler, eh??
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Member:
terrido
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Posted on Sunday, Nov 15, 2009 - 1:00 pm:
This may be a bit off topic, but for information sharing, this link will show the changes of my mare's back since shortly after I got her to this past fitting in October. I haven't scanned and uploaded all of her fitting sheets, but it's fairly easy to see the changes her back has made.
She still isn't near as even and straight as she was when I first got her. The numbers just don't lie, however she is really close.
fwiw and for those interested:
(you might have to copy and paste the entire link)
https://www.flickr.com/photos/terriedouglas/sets/72157622684392191/
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Member:
stek
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Posted on Monday, Nov 16, 2009 - 11:51 am:
Bluffer to rule out the saddle as the problem I'd ride him bareback for a while and see if you tend to slip to one side.
I agree that the problem may indeed be a combination of both you and him; I have a gelding that has a slightly clubby right fore. When I got him he was tremendously unbalanced (no muscling on the right at all). It took a lot of work to even him out. If I let him get out of shape he still tends to move unevenly so that the saddle will migrate to the right when circling to the left. Once the saddle starts to slip, my weight exacerbates the problem. When he is in shape the problem decreases dramatically, and I don't have this problem when riding any other horses, so I assume it has to do with his way of going.
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Member:
shanson
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Posted on Tuesday, Nov 17, 2009 - 11:40 am:
Sounds to me like you're doing all the right things to figure this out. You've checked saddle fit, soundness, your seat, and are working with a coach. The video is a very good idea. It could tell you a lot. Let us know what you learn from it.
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Member:
maggienm
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Posted on Saturday, Nov 21, 2009 - 8:15 am:
If your weaker side and your horses's weaker side are the same that would exacerbate the problem.
Even after being aware of it and working on it for years one direction of circle is still easier and I feel more balanced for me.
Since your horse is unbalanced, and you can see the difference riding straight, while a good thing to do, won't correct the problem.
Terri gave very good examples of exercises to limber and build muscle.
I think you are right to search for the cause of the imbalance. All the fixing you do won't last if you don't correct the root.
Would it be possible for you to ride a different horse in a lesson?
Sometimes a horse that isn't used to us (and automatically compensates) will reveal our weak side and other trouble spots we may have.
I remember watching a student ride another girls horse, she couldn't keep the horse on the correct lead through a corner because her weight would go off to one side so the wonder pony obediently switched leads.
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