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  Discussion on Lungeing Hannah
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Member:
paardex

Posted on Saturday, Jan 30, 2010 - 11:11 am:

Hi guys Hannah is an 8 ear old QH[guess nobody told her] who after bucking of a variety of different trainers/ riders was 'rescued' and ended up over here.
Plan was to give her to a friend who wants a broodmare [good pedigree and her 2 full sisters behave and perform well]
In the meantime she is handed out to me to try if perhaps an 'european' approach might change her mind.
I have now had her on the lungeline a few times. I always insist on starting in walk andthen if the horse is relaxed a tiny trot. Hannah does not approve. She rears tries to kick buck etc and though she now is not scared anymore[loads of carrots and brushing did that trick] she tries me out in every possible way.
Yesterday after repeating getting her to come to meand start in walk again for about half an hour and her still running of after a quart of the round pen I tried my second solution. Gallop? OK I will stay calm and let you calm down in a canter and then if YOU want to walk you will canter a bit more.Calm. Well it took another 45 minutes[anybody need an eventer or an endurance horse] After that a relaxed walk and trot for five minutes and then a bath.
I will keep doing this for a while [well this is an adult horse I usually am scared of this system]
Tried groundpoles to slow her down and though they catch her interest they do not slow her down much.
Anybody with more suggestions? I can use them as this horse has tried out about every trick in my [lungewise reasonably extensive]book.
I am planning on as soon as I establish a reasonable calm without complete fatigue getting sidereins on a surcingle on[want to wait as she bucks like a lunatic until I can get it on without her getting additionally upset]
Thanks as always
Jos
Member:
scooter

Posted on Saturday, Jan 30, 2010 - 11:35 am:

OH JOS she sounds like a Hank twin

I don't know if you read thru the at liberty training, but there was many good suggestions on how to get a horse to walk on the lung line OR at liberty it all applies the same.

Hank would never walk on the lunge either. It was canter, buck, fart, run, I don't HEAR YOU or SEE you and don't want to either!

Using the techniques on that thread (at liberty and on the lunge line) turned the boy around (plus getting his respect), I can now get walk right when I ask...it did take a few weeks of consistent work and a lot of
Member:
paardex

Posted on Saturday, Jan 30, 2010 - 1:42 pm:

Hi Diane, just reread the thread and I think I can see the biggest point for now [knew it ofcourse but can now put it in words] She has NO respect and hovers on panic all the time.
I will first have to fix that. And the moments she forgets about those two issues she works fine.Sooo I agree with you it will take a few weeks[or even months] and a lot of patience sigh..
To top the fun: she is very dominant and a mare, Hank could be an exception but my feelings are that with geldings and especially stallions you work through these two points and then you have an understanding. With mares as a very well known Dutch trainer said: You'd better coax them into working with you
Jos
PS Mike states that I have a slightly masochistic attitude in my choice of horses...How about that?
Member:
scooter

Posted on Saturday, Jan 30, 2010 - 3:13 pm:

You do seem to choose the horned ones They are much more fun tho!(kind of)

Respect is big issue no matter the gender. With Hank coaxing was not the way to go, he needed a FIRM hand and a distinct line drawn between right and unacceptable behavior... still does

He's a give him an inch will take a mile horse..no inches were given. When teaching him to walk at the beginning a TRY...slow down anything along those lines were rewarded...not with treats (they turn him into a pushy monster) but with rest and pats.

Further along when he would even slow trot...brought in and told how very smart he was.

One step of walk he was immediately praised and stopped. immediate release for a reward worked with him..albeit slowly but surely, as all things in the horse world!
Member:
paardex

Posted on Saturday, Jan 30, 2010 - 5:43 pm:

Well Diane I do think horns are fun! You are so right about treats. I always used treats on my 'big ones' they did very well with a tiny treat as confirmation they did good. I thought perhaps Hannah would react favorable on tiny pieces of carrot. Wrong she immediately tried to find every single bit of carrot nearly pushed me over and tried to eat my fingers.
So now a real nice meal waits when we are ready. That works, she doesn't seem to do her work much better but enjoys going with me[well returning I guess] so no catching anymore.
Today was calmer then yesterday and madam did not try to rear or kick in return I kept the session brief and meal big..
Why did somebody with as little patience as I have end up with horses?
Jos
PS My english saddle doesn't fit it will most certainly end up under her belly if she really bucks. Does the weight of the western saddle seem to make them buck more? Do I need to add weight up to the saddles weight under the lungesingle slowly?
Member:
scooter

Posted on Saturday, Jan 30, 2010 - 6:46 pm:

I don't know what's normal Jos, but around these parts when the saddle is added... western saddles are almost always used, even in the english barns.

The bigger, heavier, and more stuff that can bounce on them the happier they are. They figure once they are used to that accepting an english saddle is nothing

The guy that started Hank put a big roping saddle on him for his first lunge with the saddle on. It was so heavy I couldn't even lift it! Surprisingly Hank didn't hardly buck just crow hopped a little and that was it. This guy did a lot of ground work and desensitizing him before that tho.

If you do use a western saddle and the horse is prone to bucking, take the stirrups off...just in case. You don't need a leg stuck
Member:
gramsey1

Posted on Saturday, Jan 30, 2010 - 8:53 pm:

Do you have access to a 60 foot round pen?
You might try Join-Up. Sounds like she is not accepting you as lead.
Don't forget to consider all the possible physical causes of this behavior.
I believe the Diane's advise is sound. But, she may not be able to do at liberty in a large space until you get her respect in a defined space. Not too small, you have to be able to get out of face and let her decide, but you also have to be able to put pressure on her if she still thinks she is boss.
Member:
gramsey1

Posted on Saturday, Jan 30, 2010 - 8:57 pm:

Oh, and on the topic of the saddle. Is she sore?
Wanna bucked off?
Member:
stek

Posted on Saturday, Jan 30, 2010 - 9:17 pm:

Jos I agree, the bigger, heavier and flappier the saddle for starting out the better. But if you can't get your hands on a western saddle a breast collar will keep your english one in place.

What I might try with this mare rather than going right to the long lunge is to do ground work on a 10 foot or so (er, 3 meters .. have you started thinking in 'english' units yet?)

Anyway I digress. Work on a long lead with lots of direction changes, stepping over poles, yeilding her butt, sidepassing etc might give her something to think about rather than just getting out to the end of the lunge line and going hell bent for leather.

Of course make sure you are in a safe enough environment that if she gets away from you she's ok, and don't forget your gloves with this little rocket!

Good luck with her, I think the slightly crazy ones are more fun too...
Member:
paardex

Posted on Sunday, Jan 31, 2010 - 12:22 pm:

Hi Diane asI have acces to suitable western saddles I will try that. But I plan on taking a month or so with single sidereins and add slowly padds with different weight and 'flapping things'
Because the method of :saddle and let her get used to it is already extensively tried.
Guy the respect thing sorts out nicelyHannah has found that feeding a lot and being nice does NOT mean being a pushover.
Yes I work her in a big roundpen for safetyreasons and also not to have to pull on her which is what I would have to do in the arena. Although I lunge her on a well fitting halter.
Shannonweirdly enough the groundwork you describe immediately gave problems up to rearing kicking panicking etc. Itis obvious that in a 'working situation' she does NOT like to be touched [in her pen that is much less of a problem]
I found that if she is completely of the lungeline she calms down sooner. And comes easier when called. Bad thing is she walks with her head to the outside and not relaxed most of the time.
But it is good for my shoulderand I think as I said that it will take a long time anyway before she starts lungeing as a 'normal'horse and then I am not even talking about riding..
Physically she seems fine to me, very sound though not using her back much[going to fast but if she relaxes her gaits seem completely sound.
Difficult to asses backpain as she is so sensitive to touching but given how she walks don't think so. I think whenI start putting pads on her back I will see more.
Only thing that bothers me is that I have once had a showjumper who always escaped any teaching by running away. The trainers tried everything and when I got her home she was completely tied up and her x rays of the vertebrae were awful. She had to be put down.
But that was aline known for tying up and OCD in vertebrae.
As I don't have any experience with QH's[she is foundation bred] I do not know if this is a risk.
Jos
Member:
scooter

Posted on Sunday, Jan 31, 2010 - 2:24 pm:

Jos when starting groundwork with these types ( I do own one) they react just the way you describe Hannah. She needs to learn to control herself in simple steps. You should have saw Hank when ground work commenced, the trainer said he was one of the most bull headed, don't want to do it horses he ever worked. He did all those things.. rearing, kicking, panicking,... he even laid down once to see if that would get him out of work. When I say he is/was a horned one I'm not kidding. The trainer did a good job with him, however respect does not carry over to the next person (me) so we had to do it all over again. Last year with the at liberty training is when we finally had a break through, but boy I had to be very insistent that I was the alpha mare. He is a VERY dominant type horse.... that is sweet as can be, once we reached an understanding.

These videos show getting Hank used to a whip, a lot of horses panic at whips.. I did this on a 10 ft. rope first to get him used to it..then you use it as an extension of your arm to slow..point ect. as you can see I still get a few bucks ect. That is alright as long as he comes back and pays attention..at that point. I can't wait to get back at this stuff.

https://picasaweb.google.com/hank97/20090731HankMusic?authkey=Gv1sRgCK3anLi36fWrT w#5365451901902347282

https://picasaweb.google.com/hank97/20090731HankMusic?authkey=Gv1sRgCK3anLi36fWrT w#5365441365118688002
Member:
npo33901

Posted on Sunday, Jan 31, 2010 - 4:23 pm:

Why not "join up" Monty Roberts ? Sounds a good idea .
Member:
paardex

Posted on Sunday, Jan 31, 2010 - 6:59 pm:

Thanks Diane, your mails are really helping!I feel talking things through usually makes it cleare already.
Bad thing with Hannah obviously is that no trainer managed anything else them getting her more 'screwed up' I've seen a few horses with trickboxes this is oneof the worst and on top of it as you say 'bullheaded'. That's what I am NOT used to.
But still a nice mare, I like her and instead of trying to disappear she has in three sessions taken the attitude that going out with me is fun. That really pleases me, she DOES seem to like working.
The whip fi is immediately no problem anymore[unless she is bad and she feels she deserves a whack on the butt]
She has now sort of the attitude that everything seems fun at a distance or if she is closeby if she is petted. Everything else immediately falls in the category:saddle rider BAD aparently more people started with touching her all over and leaning against her sigh
She is though putting flesh on getting condition and amusing me so I think I will keep going with no expectations as to where I will exactly end up.
It would be so wonderful if I finally could work through my favorite book completely[Training the dressage horse the first two years by Anthony Crossley] The horse always got sold halfway through the first year!!
Jos
Member:
paardex

Posted on Sunday, Jan 31, 2010 - 7:05 pm:

Anna Marie, although I have read his books with pleasure, I think I am already to set in my ways and system. The old European ways weird as it may sound never seemed to clash imo!
Jos
Member:
scooter

Posted on Monday, Feb 1, 2010 - 7:00 am:

Good Luck with the horned one Jos, brainstorming helps me quite a bit. Patience is one thing we all need to learn with horses
Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Monday, Feb 1, 2010 - 8:38 am:

Jos,

I know what you are experiencing with regards to the respect issue. I am dealing with this myself with my two year old stud colt. I am not sure where he lost it but, some where between June and now, he's decided he's the boss of me instead of the other way around and that became very evident Saturday in the middle of a snow storm.

Usually, he comes up to eat his meals or get caught to come inside ( which is what I had planned to do). But he was really agitated because it was snowing on him and started acting like an idiot, while he did come down to the feed bucket as soon as he realized there was no food in it he ran right back up to the shed and would not come back. So I went in to get him, he thought I was a play toy, I got a hold of his halter to put the lead shank on and he reared up and struck me, getting me in the nose and head(thankfully,no serious damage). I always try the nice route first, which is what I have been doing with this colt, but we have had other respect issues in the past, which I thought for the most part were over. Looks like I was wrong.

His new training started Saturday night right after this incident. I left him outside and I fed him in the shed which means I have to go through the fence into the paddock to get there. I brought my whip and my clicker. When he tried to rush me he got a swift smack on the chest and the verbal command to back off which he did momentarily. He then tried again, with the same result, the third time you could see he was thinking about it and while he took a few steps toward me a wave of the whip was all I needed and he backed off. After he stood still for a few seconds, enough time for me to dump in his food, I made him wait and clicked him and let him know it was ok and he was a good boy for waiting. I let him grab a few mouthfuls and them backed him off the feed, made him wait while I threw the hay in the rack and then clicked him and told him he was a good boy and let him eat.

I have repeated this scenario for every meal since Saturday and as of this morning he now stands back and waits until I click and release him to eat. He understands the clicker because I've spent time with him in the past clicker training him and he picked up on it right away. He's a very smart colt, to big for his britches, he needs to get taken down a few notches and relearn to respect me and anyone else he might come in contact with.

I wish you luck with your girl, maybe clicker training can help her too.

Rachelle
Member:
terrido

Posted on Tuesday, Feb 2, 2010 - 12:55 pm:

Jos, fwiw sounds to me like she was not handled well while on a line, if at all. If there is obvious fear (for whatever reason) and that is where you begin, helping her move past her fears and learn she can trust you. Respect will come, but trust is paramount.

I would forget using any sidereins at all until you can get her moving calmly without them, and consistently at least in both walk and trot while responding nicely for transitions. I would not use them until she moves into a nice low level 'frame' on her own, meaning she will use her back and engage well. Side reins I believe will make her fears of being worked on a line much worse.

Keep the sessions short.

If it were me, and she started to rear, buck, kick, etc. I'd do my best to halt that. I use a longe cavesson that is rather 'sharp' and affords me fab control when required. Course this is just me. I don't have extensive experience with horses that have never longed before or are terrified of working on longe. I know it takes much longer initially when they don't have a clue what this is all about. Worse if they have had horrid longe work in the past. Anyway I would 'sit on the line' until the horse put feet on ground, then relax and just stand. And if that's all I get every day for the first couple weeks, so be it. Baby steps, and go for the least try toward the right thing and stop there. Eventually she'll learn that you aren't gonna cause her more terror or pain even, and that you aren't gonna quit until she stands still (at that point anyway). Some horses just freak when asked to move in a small circle, some just freak when asked to circle going on way but are fine the other. But again, this is just me. Oh and of course keep frustration out of it. I shouldn't need to specify this, but lately I have been watching too many people get frustrated and take it out on the horse who is already confused anyway. Had this happen yesterday culminating in a rear that dumped his rider in the process, I don't blame the horse at all. ;)

I think if you go slow and steady in a more classical way, she will come around. I wouldn't round pen her, and I wouldn't allow her to move out much, and I definitely would not 'chase' her back into a canter if she tires to a walk. I am not one to 'work them and make it harder' as a correction so much though, at least not until they know what I am asking and I know they know it. I opt to allow the horse to be the horse, and ask the horse to cooperate and I wait for it. When the horse is obviously showing fear, 'chasing it' is just adding to that fear and confusion that is so plainly there. Hard part is to remain calm and don't get discouraged, but don't give up; ya gotta remain positive and expect her to settle and listen and start to work. It'll happen, will just take some time.
Member:
lynnland

Posted on Tuesday, Feb 2, 2010 - 2:26 pm:

Hi Jos,

Just my 2 cents worth. I would also avoid the side-reins for quite some time. A lack of balance on the lunge line can be frightening to a horse; adding in the side-reins reduces her ability to toss her neck to the outside to help her balance. As I am sure you know...when a horse looses balance on a circle they speed up to attempt to regain the balance.

Lynn
Member:
paardex

Posted on Tuesday, Feb 2, 2010 - 10:21 pm:

Don't worry guys[sorry girls] I will not even put a surcingle on her before she is ok with that and without that no sidereins possible. I also want to stress that I did not chase her in a canter but I did ask happily another few steps of canter whenever she stopped out of herself[and before she could run away again]My thinking is like I had once with a rearing horse: if you react happy as if this JUST is what you would want her to do the trick of running away looses its effect being: not obeying
I think the trust is coming fast, had to spent a few hours in her pen painting the wood with anti bite and she likes company and helping you she has decided. The respect thing I am happy to say was much less of a struggle then you described Rachelle but a well fed well taken care of young stud is no comparison to a 'shoved from one adress to the other half scared half dominant mare I think. She is not sure of herself just tries.
I think my old system of time time and more time will work although like I already stated she[and I usually do not like to set horses free in a biggish pen before they react to 'brakes] seems to work better free. I resorted to it because of an old shoulderinjury[mine] and given her age and condition I thought she probably wouldn't damage herself. And see she was unexpectedly much better and after that also much more relaxed on the line..
They always surprise you dn't they? Which is why such a load of experience available at HA is so nice!
Jos
Member:
scooter

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 3, 2010 - 6:55 am:

Jos you are right about a sense of humor When Hank would take of bucking farting, and bouncing around I couldn't help but laugh at him, he thought he was quite funny and he WAS!

He always came back and started working better after his display. After a few weeks of liberty training he didn't think it was all that fun anymore, too much energy to waste for him. Occasionally he would put on a "display" for me, but like you I just ignored it and went back to work when it was over.

Sounds like you are doing well!
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