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Discussion on Meeting on Rollkur coming up - your chance to help
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Member:
lilo
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Posted on Sunday, Feb 7, 2010 - 10:23 am:
Hi all,
I received an email from Holly (many of your may remember her, she used to be very active on HA).
I am starting a new discussion, but, this has been discussed before on HA. Someone posted a link on a different discussion already. The links are near the end of the email. Lilo
Here is a copy of Holly's email:
FW: A Call From Linda to Help Abused Horses
Holly Mayfield
show details 11:36 AM (20 hours ago)
This came from a friend who is starting an EAGALA program here in the Wichita area.
Could one of you Horseman's Adviser members post the info and link to the discussion board if it hasn't already been posted?
Thank you.
Holly
Sent: Friday, February 05, 2010 9:01 PM
Subject: A Call From Linda to Help Abused Horses
Dear Epona Approved Instructors,
Please see the letter and link below. It is our chance to protect dressage horses from a destructive practice that reflects badly on all high level riders. (Interestingly enough, this pivotal meeting will happen on the one-year anniversary of Merlin's death. Merlin, more than any horse I have ever known, was an immensely talented horse who never reached his potential under saddle because of "conventional" training practices that caused him pain, and increasingly, profound rage. All horses must be protected from brutal training practices.)
All the best,
Linda
_____________________
Dear Friends,
On Feb.9th, the FEI will hold a closed door, no press allowed meeting to discuss Rollkur for the fifth time.
The list of invitees is long but only one man has spoken up loudly against rollkur again and again and refused to be silenced. That one man, Dr. Heuschmann will stand quite alone in a room dominated by interests that have nothing to do with the good of the horse. Please show him and the FEI that his fight, our fight has not been in vain and that there are thousands upon thousands of horse lovers who stand with him. For those who do not know what “rollkur” is, it is working the horse in a tense hyperflexion posture that causes the horse to break down. It is very painful and uncomfortable. Dr. Gerd Heuschmann has published a book about the negative results of this practice and has research evidence to support his theories. Even if you are not a horse person, this is cruelty to beautiful giving animals and this is a chance to stop it in the competition world. Please go to the website and provide your name & email address, so that Gerd has some support at the meeting.
Tomorrow, a petition will go live after 9:00am CA time on his publisher's website.
I do not know what your policy is for these things, but I am asking you if you could personalize the following message, or create one from scratch if you prefer and distribute it tomorrow. I know you would make a difference.
"YOU can HELP Dr. Heuschmann put an end to rollkur on Feb. 9th at the next FEI meeting by signing your name to a list he will take with him. Every voice is needed, it is time to step up and be counted for the good of our horses. Go to https://www.wu-wei-verlag.com/neu/start.php <https://www.wu-wei-verlag.com/neu/start.php> and click "Officials! Stop Hyperflexion!". If you want to help Dr. Heuschmann to prevail, end rollkur and horse suffering please share this message with everyone you know, use your Facebook page, twitter, blogs, phone. Together lets make a difference.
or:
Please email this message to your customers, subscribers, friends, post it on your facebook page, etc....
Don’t let Dr. Heuschmann stand alone, let your voice be heard with his and fill that room with compassion and a plea to end a practice that robs our beloved horses of their dignity, strength and beauty.
You are very welcome to share this email with everyone you know.
Thank you so much.
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Member:
cheryl
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Posted on Sunday, Feb 7, 2010 - 11:10 am:
I signed the one mentioned previously - I signed this one but am not sure if I did it right - Still can't believe any sane person would be in favor of this practice continuing.
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Member:
zarr
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Posted on Sunday, Feb 7, 2010 - 1:16 pm:
Cheryl, neither could I but there are heated discussions at several sites.The terrifying part is the people who are argueing For have never used one ?or know what its uses can lead to?? Signed awhile back.Dr. Heuschmann is very brave to stand up against "tradition" !
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Member:
kathleen
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Posted on Sunday, Feb 7, 2010 - 1:40 pm:
I also signed. Hope Dr Heuschmann gets so many signatures that they cannot refuse to listen to him.
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Member:
npo33901
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Posted on Sunday, Feb 7, 2010 - 4:01 pm:
Dr. Gerd Heuschmann, his book - Tug of war : Classical versus "Modern" dressage. Says it all in detail and well explained .
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Member:
cheryl
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Posted on Monday, Feb 8, 2010 - 8:55 am:
Greed and ego have always fanned horrible torture of less powerful beings. Why otherwise normal people are willing to stand by and watch it happen, even participate, is beyond comprehension. Every horse discipline has it's own brand of dirty secrets that are ignored by judges and spectators alike. That $1.98 blue ribbon must be obtained - no matter the method - no matter the cost.
I'll stick with riding my grand little horse down a trail, totally removed from "civil"ilzation.
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Monday, Feb 8, 2010 - 9:22 am:
Cheryl,
Love the "civil"ilzation; nothing civil about any competition it seems. And adults are the worst when they should be setting examples for their kids.
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Member:
cheryl
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Posted on Monday, Feb 8, 2010 - 10:22 am:
What just blows my mind is that it can be a little show in some podunk town and there is still abuse for the sake of bragging rights. The adults are the reason the kids turn into adults who abuse. How the very hint of competition can totally block compassion and conscience is beyond comprehension.
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Monday, Feb 8, 2010 - 11:01 am:
In my quest to educate myself prior to the WEG in Lexington this fall, I have come across the practice of Rollkur. I've read about it and watched video on You Tube. It certainly does look awful in the footage that is taken when the riders are unaware they are being filmed. And of course the riders being filmed are tops in their field as probably their trainers are. I cannot imagine how much more awful the practice must be at the lower levels of competition where there is less skill, less talent, etc. Sounds awful. Can it ever be used in moderation and be a good training tool? Or is it just plain awful period? (Remember, I'm ignorant of the world of Dressage.)
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Member:
stek
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Posted on Monday, Feb 8, 2010 - 11:35 am:
Vicki I believe the purpose of rolkur is literally to tire the horse out and make him more compliant when actually allowed to go in a more normal frame. Similar to western pleasure horses who are tied for long stretches of time with their heads at an unnaturally high angle, so when they are untied and taken into the ring they are exhausted and carry their heads low.
I don't think this is a training tool at all as it is not used to teach the horse anything.
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Monday, Feb 8, 2010 - 11:59 am:
Sheesh. What happened to time in the saddle or lungeing to exercise the pent up energy out? Suppose it takes too much time and is less "efficient"? You can tell I'm ignorant of the performance world. Perhaps if my livelihood/feeding my family depended upon it, I'd have a different outlook. But I don't think I could use forceful tactics on the horses as short cuts. It just looks awful. It would cease to be a joy for me that's for sure. Horses bring joy to my soul, not $. (They just cost me $...lol ! Maybe it's a good thing I never had the "horsey life" I dreamed about when I was younger. Maybe the horsey life I have now is better for me.  Pleasure owner.
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Monday, Feb 8, 2010 - 12:03 pm:
If Dr. H doesn't have a Facebook link, he needs one fast.
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Member:
terrido
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Posted on Monday, Feb 8, 2010 - 12:58 pm:
Vicki Rollkur began as a tool to help the horse create more muscle along the top of the neck, It's purpose was to over stretch the neck in the longitudinal manner. The idea being that if you ride for a few minutes overstretched the horse will then come back into a more normal "frame" that much easier.
Unfortunately what happened in the upper ranks of dressage in Europe is that a winning rider was using this method to help the horse and everyone thought that was the magic bullet that garnered so many wins. ;] So a 'fad' was born.
Unfortunately competition turns trainers into business people, the horses just become tools to get to that ribbon and money and many shortcuts are taken along that road, at all levels.
Personally I was never able to watch said famous rider because the rides to me were not beautiful, they did not look to be in harmony with a happy relaxed horse flowing with the rider. To me it looked the opposite. No one could understand why I thought it actually looked very ugly to me. I was never a fan of this rider, still am not.
A truly classically trained dressage horse is a thing of beauty to watch move, to dance with the partner. In the upper levels of competition finding a classical pair is rare, though today they are out there and now are beginning to win. (Steffen Peters for one.)
The horse's nose should be at vertical or a bit in front, never should be pointed at chest. The horse cannot bring his back up and work well in that manner.
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Monday, Feb 8, 2010 - 2:36 pm:
Thank you Terrie for your insight. In my crude comprehension, I can envision a gymnast hyper extending arms and legs in practice to become more flexible and perhaps making performance routines appear more effortless? And I can make the crude leap to hyper extending a horse's neck to gain flexibility and build the top muscle...But. A horse isn't a person. And hyper extending human arms and legs doesn't interfere with breathing, vision, tongue, etc. Rollkur as I understand it when used consistently and for long intervals seems to cause complex, long term physical problems.
It seems many articles I have read argue that the gaits are actually incorrect when Rollkur has been used extensively, but since the gaits look showy, to the inexperienced or untrained eye, they look great. ? If this is true, I am mystified why the FEI judges would place Rollkur horses.
Any athlete (human or equine) often endures discomfort in training and performance and the line of too much is different for all; however, I don't think I like this Rollkur as an accepted practice by the FEI. It just seems Rollkur in most people's hands would be too severe. I may be guilty of over generalizing, because I know very little about training, dressage, or the actual physical complex movements of a horse. I'm trying to become more informed. I'm still mostly at the place where horses are just magnificent creatures and I love them. But I also know we all have jobs to do, as do many horses.
If FEI is the governing body and the institution that sets the bar for humane and safe training, then I hope they make the right choice.
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Member:
terrido
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Posted on Monday, Feb 8, 2010 - 3:20 pm:
Yes Vicki, this is a good analogy. That was the intent of rollkur. Just like a gymnast would stretch it is for short periods of time only, not something to be done all the time!!
The over use or abuse of rollkur does indeed cause many not-so-good-things to the horse. First and most obvious, when the horse's nose is on it's chest it is blind. It cannot see where it is going. And yes, it cannot use it's back correctly, and no it cannot move correctly. When a horse sticks its tongue out that's a very bad sign. (Some do it as habit)
And yes these horses do not use their back, and it is plain in their performances. They are not well engaged, they are not working through the topline. In fact most of the grand prix dressage stuff I have (tried to) watch on TV, and in person, do not reflect a GP level horse. Most of the horses show the lack of strength to do the movements by their tails. An occasional tail swish is one thing but those emphatically, constantly hard slamming tails tell quite a different story. The extended forelegs in a nice extended trot should not 'flick' the hoof before going back to ground either. This is not a correct move. If you look closely you can see the neck bent at like the third or fourth vertebrae, and this is not correct. The poll should always be the highest point. Some horses have a thick crest, but even if the horse's crest is super thick if they are moving correctly the poll is still where the bend is, not way back behind it down the neck.
Another thing to look for, when they are piaffing (trot in place) the hindend should be tucked under and look like it is way lower than the frontend. The horse should look like it is going up hill. More or less anyway. Some horses conformation will prevent a true "slanted" appearance, but you should be able to see how well "tucked" that backend is regardless. Since it is piaffe and passage that are shown mostly in GP and freestyles at that level it is a good place to begin to train your eye. The canter pirouettes are supposed to be three beat, again this is a high collection movement, the rear feet leave the ground just as in normal canter. etc.
When I work my mare, if she ducks behind the vertical at all I know I am not asking her to use her behind enough!! The only way to keep that nose where it belongs is to activate the hindend!! The poll is a hinge and it's directly connected to the other hinge in the hocks.
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Member:
terrido
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Posted on Monday, Feb 8, 2010 - 3:28 pm:
I also want to say that I think what has been judged as good in the past was, well, for lack of better analogy I equate it to grading on a curve. ;) More and more the more classical are being rewarded in the upper levels. I do hope the FEI bans the use of rollkur on show grounds, it will help diminish its use (and importance). Not unlike soring a TWH.
I have posted before and I will say it again, I once asked my trainer if I were to show would a judge know what they were looking at? Would they know correct riding if it were in front of them... I will not comment on his answer. ;) I know a few of my local judges though that would probably give a standing ovation to correct riding presented in a dressage test. It's very rare.
I clinic with a retired judge pretty often and he has me ride a test and he scores my ride as he would if it were a real test. We always score extremely high (9's mostly some 10's), so I once asked him if he wasn't just being very kind in his assessment. He looked me in the eye and said that if I "ride the same for any judge and they do not score in this way they do not know what they are seeing!" And there again is that question of mine, would they know??
Hopefully this year I will start to find out if they know.
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Monday, Feb 8, 2010 - 4:26 pm:
I have watched Totilas on YouTube a zillion times and paused and studied the still photo. Many times he looks like he is bent behind the poll to me and has his nose behind the vertical--sometimes a wee bit and other times more pronounced. He doesn't look as unhappy in the dressage court (arena for we Western folk) as others I have watched on YouTube. ? He doesn't wring his tail a lot if I remember correctly although it does swish during transition, but I thought that was ok? I'll have to watch it again. It's been awhile since I've seen it. I probably have more trouble trying to figure out if there is incorrectness of his back and gait. Everyone seems to love him that commentates. He is beautiful. The covert film of him in the warm up area isn't as flattering. His head is cranked to his chest and slobber is every where. There is another covert video of "The Blue Tongue" horse which is awful to see. And I'm assuming it's original video and hasn't been edited to appear horrific. ? I'll continue to watch and read and try to learn.
If you are venturing into the performance world, good luck.
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Member:
stek
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Posted on Monday, Feb 8, 2010 - 4:57 pm:
I would agree with your assessment Terrie that a horse going behind the vertical at all is broken in their neck carriage and not coming up through from behind. Which is why rolkur doesn't make sense to me at all. I might concede to a 2 second stretch, just as I would concede to bringing the horses nose around for a brief stretch, but would never consider riding him in that frame as training.
However I think that 'behind the vertical' is such a common way of going that it has become expected if not encouraged/awarded more often than not .. a result of people rushing horses and trying to get a 'head set' as it's known in the western world rather than up onto the bit from behind.
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Member:
terrido
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Posted on Monday, Feb 8, 2010 - 5:27 pm:
I am surprised you didn't say you'd watched Blu Hors Matine on YouTube. ;) Totilas is not too bad, Gal is a decent rider more along classical than most. Go find some of Steffen Peters. Steffen I know uses a more classical approach in his training and riding.
Tail swish is common, it's the constant "tail wringing" that tells a story. The once in a while tail swish is fine. Judges do not lower score because of tail movement. ;) It's just when watching it tells a story. The story has to be kept within context though, as always. I have not seen any warm up video of the pair.
If you really want to compare, go search for SRS (Spanish Riding School), Cadre Noir, and Reiner Klimke (riding Alerich).... one of my favorites:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_RUYGGescs Karl Milkolka Notice the tail moves but not alot, mostly it's just 'held' as it should be. This Lip's conformation is one mentioned before, he will not look super "slanted", but even with the not so clear image you can see how well the back end is engaged, collected, working correctly, the poll is the highest point, the nose is at or just ahead of vertical, the horse is relaxed and flowing with the movement. And this old film:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBtXDcwKuqU
(SRS) And this one is nice: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQOMrTHT8RU&NR=1
Noses will go behind vertical but are not held there by the rider, and they tend to not stay there long by the horse. Again to me the tails speak volumes to the strength or the horse and being able to remain more relaxed in the movements. Lovely swinging verses tension wringing. ;)
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Monday, Feb 8, 2010 - 5:39 pm:
I have watched Blu Hors Matine, but I've watched Totilas more--he looks so grand that I was really straining to see the Rollkur effects I have been reading about. Thank you for posting the links. I have only until WEG in Lexington to become semi literate so I can appreciate what I'll be seeing! I didn't want to miss a once in a lifetime opportunity even if I didn't know a darn thing...
Shannon I have often heard the term "headset" in WP and such, but I'm not closely associated with the performance world, so it's Greek to me. Although the few folks I am around cringe at the word headset. And the drill team folks I have been around seem to have a general disdain for WP as a discipline. "They'd rather walk than ride WP" so they say...
I like and respect all disciplines, but not the crummy rough training tactics of any.
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Monday, Feb 8, 2010 - 6:41 pm:
WP actually has a lot in common with dressage IF both are done correctly. Unfortuneatly, "short cuts" are used by a lot of trainers and owners for the same reasons they are used in other disciplines. Heads tied down, tied to tail, etc. IF the horse is trained correctly, with enough time spent, your horse, like in dressage, will move with rounded back, hind end reaching under, balanced movement, and this will give the horse the proper head-set. Too often "head-set" is used to mean forced into a behind the bit profile. When trained and ridden correctly, a horse will collect and DrOp is head naturally. Same is true in both WP and dressage.
Trainers are often blamed, but a lot of the fault lies with owners. They've spent big money on a horse, probably with a good pedigree. The horse's sire, or dam, or grand sire was a champion and they think their horse should be also. Many of these folks aren't "real" horse people; they own the horse as a status symbol, an investment, for fun, etc. They want to see a return on their money sooner instead of later. The return in some disciplines is win money; in others it's points that lead to symbols after the horse's name which mean they can charge more for breed fees, or at the very least, gain more status for the owner. If trainer "so and so" doesn't produce a winner with their horse within a short period of time, they will pull their horse and put it in with someone that will. Many of these people only see their horse at shows or races, sometimes at appointed times when the visit the barn or go for a lesson. You can bet that if they show up for their appointment, the horse is well groomed, the barn is clean, and they never see how the horse is actually trained. These owners put a tremendous pressure on the trainer and many trainers have fallen to doing whatever they can to make a winner of a horse. In the QH world, horses used to be "bled" so they would be slow and draggy in the "show pen" or arena. In the Arab world horse have been beaten and whipped so they will go into a halter class standing on their hand legs and eyes big with fear.There was even a well know case of a world famous Arab trainer that had plastic surgery done on a stallion to make it's appearance more "ideal" for halter classes! Rules have been made against these practices and USEF does it's best to prevent these things. If a trainer is caught, he will pay a fine and be banned from showing for anywhere from a year to lifetime, depending on what he did.
Showing, in any discipline, can be a lot of fun, whether you are the rider or are just watching the trainer on your horse. There are some wonderful people in the show world, in all the breeds. I raise and show Arabians, but know some great folks that show Paints, QH, Warmbloods, etc. There are good and bad across the board, just like in the rest of the world. Don't be "put off" from showing. DO have a good "heart to heart" with whoever you pick for a trainer. And, before you pick someone, so a lot of investigative work. Watch him/her at shows. Arrive unannounced one day at the trainer's barn and ask for a tour. And, keep your eyes open. When you see abuse, at a show or anywhere else, report it. Shows have a USEF steward if they are a rated show. (Schooling shows usually don't.) These stewards WANT to know when something isn't right, whether with the judge or with an owner or trainer. In my experience, they have acted immediately to stop cruel behavior, or fix a problem.
As an owner, know that some horses just aren't cut out to be "super horse" no matter how much training it gets. Maybe it will be a great trail horse though. Not every horse can be a pleasure horse, but might make a good jumper. Have a prospective trainer evaluate your horse and let him guide you as to what your horse's capabilities are. Don't set time limits and say you want a horse ready for a certain show. Let the horse tell you and the trainer when it's ready.
You get the picture. I'll get off my "soapbox." This, as you can tell, is one of my "pet peeves." There is a lot of responsibilty to go around.
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Member:
stek
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Posted on Monday, Feb 8, 2010 - 7:12 pm:
Well said Sara. The same is true not just across different showing disciplines but in the racing world as well. As one trainer from the UK said, in the US anyone can rent a sheDrOw and call themselves a trainer, so the list of trainers for hire is a lot longer and owners are more apt to pull their horse if it's not winning. In the UK the training business was much harder to get into so trainers had a better chance of sticking to their guns and doing right by their horses without risking their livelihood.
Ultimately it is the owner's job to make well-informed choices and be realistic both about your horse's abilities and how much time and money you are willing to spend on his showing or racing or whatever career.
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Member:
rtrotter
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Posted on Monday, Feb 8, 2010 - 7:14 pm:
Here, Here Sara, I couldn't agree with you more.
And if you replace the words Dressage and western pleasure with racehorses in your post above, that's exactly what goes on in the race horse business.
Too much pushing of horses to get someplace they shouldn't be at too soon in their careers.
Rachelle
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Monday, Feb 8, 2010 - 7:32 pm:
Good advice Sara. There's no need for me to be in the show world however. I know far too little. And I didn't shop for a horse with a particular show discipline in mind because it would be a waste. I don't have show quality horsemanship skill. Well, she was a drill team horse who did performances, but it wasn't like it was for AQHA or APHA points. I was looking for a decently put together, registered, calm disposition, lesson horse to use for trail/drill perhaps/parade which is a far cry from a Show Mount. Of course I was looking for a gelding over 10 and wound up with a mare. Oops.
I love to attend shows though. And look and learn and just soak it all up.
What would be best is if I could magically tag along with all of the HA show people and sponge up their knowledge.
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Monday, Feb 8, 2010 - 7:57 pm:
It would be fun to have you along, Vicki, but beware...you might "get hooked!" You might also get put to work! LOL
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Monday, Feb 8, 2010 - 8:00 pm:
Got this today from Parelli about this situation:
Attention Parelli community!
Tomorrow, February 9, 2010, there will be a Federation Equestre Internationale (FEI) closed-door meeting to discuss the practice of hyperflexion, also known as "rollkur." This highly controversial technique is often employed at the upper levels of dressage training and involves hyperflexing the horse's neck until his chin is almost touching his chest; often the horse is forced to maintain this position for extended periods of time.
Pat and Linda Parelli stand with dressage master Walter Zettl in support of those who denounce rollkur. Rollkur represents artificiality taken to the extreme and performance put before the good of the horse. Convincing FEI officials to take a stand against rollkur will be a major step forward in ensuring that performance horses worldwide are being ridden and trained without force and mechanics.
Rollkur has a few passionate opponents who will be present at the FEI meeting next week, but they need our support to make an impression on the FEI officials. If you believe in the Parelli vision to make the world a better place for horses and humans, please add your name to one or both of the following petitions. Please share these links with your horse-loving friends, family and neighbors. Let's show the FEI that compromising the natural dignity of the horse for the sake of competition is NOT permissible!
No-Rollkur
The signatories to this petition ask the FEI to oppose the training method of the "Rollkur"/Hyperflexion clearly and resolutely. The FEI rules are to be adapted correspondingly to ensure that in future the use of the method of the "Rollkur"/Hyperflexion will be regarded as a violation of these rules.
Wu-wei-verlag
Register your support to ban rollkur by adding your name to a petition which will be presented by Dr. Gerd Heuschmann – veterinarian, clinician and author of the book Tug of War; Classical versus Modern Dressage – at the FEI meeting on February 9, 2010.
Keep it Natural,
On behalf of Pat, Linda and everyone on the Parelli Team
February 8, 2010
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Monday, Feb 8, 2010 - 8:31 pm:
Thanks for the post VickiZ. The Parelli machine has a lot of followers. Hope they all sign.
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Member:
canter
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 9, 2010 - 8:14 am:
Sara - well said!!
Vicki, I will just add that you don't need a "top quality" horse or skill to show. As a rider that didn't learn to ride until I was an adult, the local show circuit taught me a LOT - the good, the bad and the ugly. For sure, it taught me what kind of horse person I wanted to be and what type I would NEVER be.
The honest truth: I have a nice horse, but I am an untalented rider. Sheer stubborness and the love of the animals and the sport keeps me at it. So, I do a few shows each year, compete against my self in the hopes my scores improve (or my nerves relax) and in the meantime, learn from some other amazing horse people and enjoy their company for a day or two. What I do know is that I have become the type of horse person that can laugh at myself when I fall apart in the ring.
Anyway, all that to say that there are enough local circuits around that - if you desire - you can have fun with, regardless of skill level, talent or the horse under you.
And in the meantime, we can continue to monitor horse sports at all levels and speak out for the horses, when need be.
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Member:
gwenyth
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 9, 2010 - 2:19 pm:
FEI Decision on roll-kur - or perhaps "non-decision".
https://www.dressagedaily.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=4889:f ei-round-table-conference-resolves-rollkur-controversy&catid=334:february-2010
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Member:
gwenyth
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 9, 2010 - 2:22 pm:
Video of physiological effects of Rollkur, even if you do not ride dressage, this will interest you, as I am sure it could be applied to other disciplines where the head and neck are restrained.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zhljcsuudd4
Nancy
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Member:
stek
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 9, 2010 - 3:02 pm:
Wow. Non-decision indeed.
What a joke.
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Member:
gwenyth
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 9, 2010 - 4:13 pm:
My instructor - who knew many of the "old timers", the classical riders - including Klimke - says that now dressage is all about making a profit - just like all the other sports have become. It's all in the $$ and cents.
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 9, 2010 - 5:24 pm:
Hmmmm. I heard a decision in the video against Rollkur but a move to differentiate between Rollkur and LDR as Aggressive vs. Non aggressive riding.
I would like to hear and see FEI's "definition" of Aggressive and Non aggressive riding. I am encouraged to hear cameras will be used at some shows. Perhaps that will slow down the Rollkur in the warm up arena if riders aren't sure cameras are there?
If this is the 5th meeting and nothing has been done previous, then at least Rollkur was officially recognized as "Aggressive" riding and is "unacceptable". And cameras will be used at select shows. However, I fail to understand why there is no explicit change in policy/rulebook to recognize that Rollkur is "unacceptable" and riders using Rollkur will be sanctioned.
So, I'm assuming LDR does NOT include yanking a horse's face to his chest although it will probably allow his face behind the vertical...to what degree? Will the poll still be the highest point>...apparently so if there is no change in policy/rules. Then judges should step up and mark down rider/horse bent behind the poll.... Hmmm. When is the next BIG FEI show?
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Member:
gwenyth
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 9, 2010 - 5:59 pm:
IMO - any time the curb bit in a Double Bridle is not parallel with the horse's mouth, but is pulled back by the rider, is aggressive riding. I have had the opportunity to ride with a DB, and the curb bit can get "too tight" really easily. And the rider really doesn't even have to "yank", the bit is enough to put the horse's head to the chest pretty easily. if the rider is not aware (or does not care) And it happens so fast - unless you think constantly - "is the curb too tight?" - it probably is.
USEF wanted to "take away" the DB from 3rd level since the judges were complaining about overuse of the curb - but 3rd level riders just learn this by watching the upper level riders.
Why don't we ask the upper level riders to show in BOTH a DB and a snaffle? Do one test with one bit and one with the other? That would show quite a bit (no pun intended!) Klimke could easily have done a GP test with a snaffle.
But I agree - at least something came out of this meeting.
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Member:
leslie1
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 9, 2010 - 8:56 pm:
I am pleased as I feel at least it IS a start...AND we can keep being the squeaky wheel until 'aggresive' is defined in exact and meticulous detail.
It isnt perfect but atleast its something and we can go forward and work with it.
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