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Discussion on Horses Never Forget Human Friends
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Member:
lhenning
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 18, 2010 - 2:35 pm:
Here is a link to an article that should be no surprise to those of us who own horses. Seems like someone always has to "study" it to make it official.
https://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35911274/ns/technology_and_science-science/
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 18, 2010 - 3:53 pm:
Linda,
Great article which I agree with on the importance of verbal cues, and positive reinforcement.
I've have a less than positive experience though in the memory area.
My now 21 year old Arab mare had a foal 16 years ago, and would not accept him. I raised him as an orphan, both my husband and I feed him around the clock for however many months it was.
I've visited that horse at 2 previous homes, and also see him at the fair grounds during the summer months.
Other than doctoring him when the first new owner let him get rope burn, I didn't do anything with him after he left here. And he was treated good then, and always treated good with us of course his first 3 years of life.
Yet he seems just as aloof as always when I see him; no "talking" no coming to see me, no sign of recognition at all. Which I find really disappointing!
Just my story, I can't wait to hear if others have had wonderful "memory" experiences with horses.
And how many words do ya all think your horse understands?! (Keep it clean please, no cuss words, lol!)
Thanks for sharing the link Linda.
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 18, 2010 - 3:54 pm:
Oh, didn't the article say these horses were rewarded with food? Maybe they remembered the food more than anything else?
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Member:
lhenning
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 18, 2010 - 9:28 pm:
Angie, that is interesting about your youngster. I wonder if he were just too young to form a bond-type memory? Sort of like us remembering our childhood friends; it is fuzzier. I don't know, just guessing out loud.
I also question the use of food in this experiment. It seems logical that horses remember places they have eaten food in the past. They are hard-wired to remember that for survival. I would like to see the same experiment done without food rewards to see if they are remembering the actual person. Positive reinforcement does not have to be food.
It would be interesting to study the horse that has learned to open a particular type of latch, then take it away so he never sees it for a long period of time. When he is then put near that latch again, will he remember how to open it?
Fascinating stuff.
Linda
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Friday, Mar 19, 2010 - 7:21 am:
Linda,
I am pretty sure once a horse learns to open a gate, they always remember! Not only that, they seem to have the ability to learn to work different latches! Our late Fancy was an expert at that. But we never caught her in the act, tricky little thing she was.
I also believe they learn by watching others. For example once we got the new stalls in our barn a few years back, Tango learned to slide the stall doors open. Now even Willow (the mare above who wasn't into motherhood) knows how to slide hers open. Funny thing is, she won't try anything like that first. I think a horse has to have a certain personality, as in nosey, ;-) to be able to "learn" those kinds of things that we don't want them to learn.
I love to try new things in the round pen right off our barn, because I know Tango can see what is going on. I am always telling him "Hey, you paying attention? See _____ isn't having any trouble with this!"
We had another foal the year before Willows. In his case, I was there at his birth, and he smelled me and felt my touch first. He LOVED me and I would love to see him again because I know he'd remember me. I think perhaps Little Guy was traumatized so much with Willow chasing him around and not letting him nurse that as you say, that part of his life is not a bonding type memory.
It is fascinating isn't it? I've got a book or 2 with stories of the "mind of the horse" type thing, and we really don't give them enough credit. Yes, they are "horses" not "human" yet if we understand their language and appreciate their memories and senses, it sure makes our relationships easier and more fun with them. Safer too.
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Member:
rtrotter
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Posted on Friday, Mar 19, 2010 - 9:23 am:
I have two "memory stories".
The first one was with one of our best race mares, my husband's favorite. We had her from the time she was three until she died in our backyard at the age of 28. A New Zealand crazy horse! My husband and she got along really great.
During the majority of her breeding career she was leased to a farm in upstate New York and was turned out with between 40-70 other mares in a huge pasture, she was the boss, but was basically very aloof and not at all friendly with the other mares or with the farm staff. The first few years she was there we got pictures of her and the babies, but did not visit her as she looked to be in really great shape. After about 5 years, My husband, his mom and myself took a 7 hour pilgrimage up to the farm for a visit. The farm staff did not have a prayer of catching her( they didn't even know we were coming), so they didn't even try.
My husband stood on the bottom board of the pasture fence called her name loudly as she was far away by herself grazing,as soon as she heard him, here she comes at a dead gallop as if she had been waiting for him to come back and get her. These two had a really strong bond and I've told him many times that if it hadn't been for the way he treated her and the care he gave her, I don't think that she would have been the great race horse she was.
Anyway, the reunion was a sight to behold and she stayed there with him until we were ready to leave and then followed the car as it went down the driveway. And while carrots and apples were her treats of choice, it was not a big part of the bonding, it was more a trust thing between the two of them.
The second story is about a physical/visual reward. I bought my present colts mother as a yearling in 1995. From the day I brought her home, she used to love getting her withers scratched. I used to stand in front of her and give her a big horsey hug and scratch both sides of her withers at the same time, she was in heaven. To catch her in the field, all I had to do was stand at the top of the hill, stretch out my arms as if I was scratching her and she would come running. The farm had to call me every time they needed to catch her because otherwise there was no way they could get her.
The funny part of this is that both her babies are the same way. They don't want food treats just scratches and verbal rewards they see those as more important than food rewards and I get more out of them with praise then food. Hard to give a food treat when you are sitting behind them in a jogcart, but they can sure hear your voice!
Rachelle
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Member:
rackn1
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Posted on Friday, Mar 19, 2010 - 8:43 pm:
I have a memory story that is not a positive story but I think illustrates that horses do remember individual people and their experiences with them.
I have a 14 year old Walking Horse I raised.
He went to an excellent trainer. I never had any problems vetting him.
My father is a cattle farmer and we always had our horses vetted by large animal vets - not specifically equine vets.
8 years ago I was having a lameness issue with this horse and the 'new' vet at the large animal clinic came out.
She was a small girl, first year on the job and decided that she 'had' to do Xrays. I was in college at the time and extremely naive and worried about my horse. In other words, it didn't occur to me that she hadn't even tested for an abscess before she found it necessary to do xrays.
So she proceeds to pull out all this equipment from her truck and wants to inject some sort of dye or something into the fetlock. I don't really remember. All I do remember is that she had to stick a needle into his right rear fetlock area.
My horse is 17 hands. At the time he was 6 and He had never kicked out in his life. Or been a problem for that matter.
The poor girl was scared to death and would not take the leg and give the shot. She would poke and then jump back in fear that he would kick and she continued to do this several times without success before my big old boy who had never ever been aggressive had had enough and kicked out at her. I had had enough to and told her never mind - to get out of there. By the way - it was a bad abscess causing the lameness.
2 years later I needed my spring shots and coggins and this particular vet clinic was having a special.
I figured what the hell, it's only shots and called.
Of course they sent this same lady out.
Two years had gone by...I had the horses in my barn at my house - a new location not even the scene of the first inccident. She got out of the truck and started talking to me and my horse went ballistic. No one could hold him. He was a nightmare. We eventually got a blood sample for coggins and she left the shots with me to administer on my own. He REMEMBERED her.
The following year I had a male vet come with no problem. Since then however I have had a couple of female vets here and he is a nervous wreck with every single one. Nothing like the first experience though.
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Member:
terrido
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Posted on Friday, Mar 19, 2010 - 10:53 pm:
Fab memory stories! I won't share any of my memory stories, but wanted to share about verbal and language experiences.
Horses, in fact most animals we spend any time with, understand everything we say. And I mean everything. Course some of it is our intention behind what we are saying, cause a horse will definitely pick up that.
Case in point, I work with my TB, Owen loose in the pasture all the time. Never use a halter, rope, etc. I was retraining him to stand quietly with a foot in a bucket and had of course started all wrong. LOL I had an empty bucket but still had the bail on it. Anyway I placed one of his rear feet in it and told him to "stand". A friend arrived and needed help moving a bale of hay from her car to the tack area, since I was the only person there to help I said to Owen, "stand here while I go help her, you can remove your foot from the bucket when I get back." I left him standing there with his rear foot in the bucket (with the metal bail on it, which could have been disastrous, I know) and went to go help her. Now, I could see him the entire time, and he just stood there patiently waiting. Once I was standing next to him again he gave me a very pointed look and carefully picked that rear foot up out of the bucket and held his foot up until I bent down and moved the bucket!
Another incident... I had told him to stand in a certain area and wait for me, he wandered off a bit, and I put him back again telling him to stand there. He wandered off again, but instead of going and putting him back I said to him, "Owen go over there and stand or I am gonna go get your rope and tie you!" He looked at me so I took one step toward where his halter and rope was kept and he quickly went right back to where he was supposed to be standing and waiting, he stood there quietly. In fact even now all I have to do is threaten to get his rope and he will do whatever I ask. LOL
Yeah I have lots of one or two word commands, but usually I just speak normally to my horses and they do as asked, well most of the time. If it's a command they always do as asked, but if it's not a direct command they may choose to not comply, and that's ok with me. (I find that allowing them a choice makes a huge difference in their cooperation.)
fwiw, my dogs all respond to normal speaking too. Like we don't always say "sit", we may say something like "put your butt on the floor" or 'park it'.  One of my favorites is "get out of the pasture" (barn, pantry...)
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Member:
cometrdr
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Posted on Tuesday, Mar 23, 2010 - 12:57 pm:
henry blake - old english horseman - wrote a book on the language of horses - called appropiatly Talking to Horses. You should read it Terrie. it speaks to the Language of horses and also intuition. I believe that happens a lot - they begin to understand our personal tone, body language and gestures and they comprehend them as spoken language. Also we have a wavelenght open between a well loved pet and the human counterpart. one where you can pick up on a lot by just allowing your self to do so. Try riding on a trail once and thinking about going over to see something when your just walking. Don't guide our horse if you can and see what happens. They will also go there. (ok your looking at it too and that heavy head on your shoulders points the way some but... still) as well I believe we also learn each horses individual language, gestures and body english so to speak.
good book to read if you get a chance.
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Member:
terrido
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Posted on Tuesday, Mar 23, 2010 - 1:52 pm:
Thanks Muffi I will look for it! ;) This really should be placed in a new topic, but I actually do this alot with my mare. (I am an animal communicator so I also know about the connection we have with our animals.)
I often ride my mare by just thinking, and I know I am not even unconsciously giving her cues with my body. I also will just play with energy and use that to direct her. It's the "thoughts" that really get to my students and is one of the first lessons I teach them because it really drives home just how sensitive a horse is.
Course it has its down side too, because she will work off any rider's thoughts. For example a woman I trade lessons with will ride Bella and she'll be trotting along and think "I should canter her" and Bella will go up to a nice canter taking her by surprise, conversely though she will be cantering along and think "half halt" and Bella will half halt herself to a walk! Or she will just slightly move her outside shoulder back half an inch and Bella will go all the way down to walk from canter. She laughs and comments how how super sensitive Bella is, she has to stop thinking about what she wants to do and when she asks for things to barely whisper it. LOL
It's great fun though to experiment with this kind of thing and it really tells you how well the horse is tuned into the rider!! Will any horse do this? Yes, I believe they will if we give them the opportunity.
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Member:
lhenning
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Posted on Tuesday, Mar 23, 2010 - 4:37 pm:
I don't mind keeping this discussion going on this thread, if that is OK with Dr. O. I am very interested and it seems on the topic of horse memory and communication with humans.
Lately, I've wondered if I am "shouting" at my horse and using my aids too strongly. So this discussion has me thinking about communicating much softer and quieter to see if he becomes more sensitive to me.
I also wonder if I am looking one place and asking him to go another, even if the two places are only a foot or so apart. For instance, I want him to walk to the right of a cone but I look at the cone. So you are reminding me to communicate more precisely in order to get a more precise response.
Linda
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Member:
terrido
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Posted on Tuesday, Mar 23, 2010 - 8:52 pm:
Linda, no offense meant here but I can assure you that yes, you are shouting at your horse. ;) Don't feel too bad, we ALL do it, and they as always, or usually, forgive us.
You can start out by using a cue/aid and as you need to cue again, lessen the cue. (repeat)
Actually one of the easiest things to start out with is a simple halt/stop. This is where I start out with my students. Ask the horse to stop. Walk on and ask again only barely ask. If the horse continues to walk on, increase the cue a little, and keep this up until you get the full stop. Once stopped, walk on and again barely ask for a stop... keep this up. Yes the horse will eventually stop when you hardly ask for it!! You can use a pattern of a number of strides in between the asking, say 3 strides or maybe 5. This also helps at first because the horse will anticipate the pattern and start paying close attention to the ask. ;)
Do the same then from a halt as you ask the horse to walk on, barely ask. Play the 'how little (lightly) can I ask and get what I am after?'
Once the horse really starts to listen well, you can really begin to have fun with every aid you use when riding. It's also fun to play with this while riding bareback. I do this, ride with just a halter and of course ask Bella to halt, how lightly can I ask without benefit of bit and saddle? LOL
If you have a helper you can begin to play with thought alone. I only suggest starting this when you have someone on the ground to assist. The ground person is just there to be sure the horse doesn't do anything silly. ;) Normally I do this with the horse on a longe so from the ground I have full control. Start at halt, close your eyes, sit very quietly and think "walk" play the image of the horse walking in your mind, visualize it as well as you can. Try really hard to just sit quietly and trust that the horse will hear your thought. Anyway eventually the horse will hear you and will start tentatively to walk, praise!!! Then while walking along, close your eyes and think "halt" while visualizing the horse stopping. Again, this is one of the first lessons my students get on my mare Bella, I have yet to have a student not be able to have her walk and halt just from thinking. ;) Then while normally learning simple control I often remind them about trying too hard and using their thoughts, less really is more.
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Member:
npo33901
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 24, 2010 - 5:52 am:
Fabulous, Terrie - I wish I had the talent to read my horses like you have.
My young one was a bit exuberent - I calmed him and stop and go so well, than now he is tooo calm. He stops OK, but want move after.....Either he is bored with my cues or he stopped respecting me . i am talking about leading and training from the ground . I havn't been in the saddle for 2 years .
He lunged extremely well - responsive , but now also he is draging his feet .
Food reward - it works very well with him -picks up immediately . - BUT than he is nosing for food - .
I see many trainers - even Spanish riding school - they reward with food. What is your opinion on this ?
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 24, 2010 - 7:33 am:
I think our communication starts with what our expectations are. For example I have a young mare I have said "I don't like her, I don't have a bond with her, I wish we had sold her, blah blah blah) Now I have set a goal to give her 60 days of "honest training."
What I've noticed on the days I see her as "a job" I don't get good responses from her, and I get irritated easily with her.
On days when I take time to lovingly groom her, talk to her, and keep my manner positive, we have a good session. Those are the days I come away saying "She's a smart little thing once I get in tune with her." Notice when I get in tune with HER, not so much her getting in tune with me although that is happening too.
I believe with horses is very true that "what you think, is what you get!" So if we act like as if we have some rigid plan in mind, our body language most likely tells the horse that. If we have a plan in mind, and we are o.k. if the horse makes a mistake, things stay calm and go well. Along those same lines I believe a horse really wants to do what we are asking, just as they know if we are trying to help them if they are hurt or ill.
So ask in very small ways, wait, and then make a big deal out of the correct response with lots of verbal praise and scratching a favorite spot. And ignore the "wrong" response as if it didn't happen. Because "wrong" to the horse was a try to understand what we were wanting.
I love those days all the horses are so loving, or my shy one comes up to me right away. I know that means I am in the right place in my mind to work with my horses. Not all days, we all have too much mental clutter! And horses take that away from us for awhile when we are with them.
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Member:
rtrotter
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 24, 2010 - 8:32 am:
Angie,
When I look back on the past 30+ years and all the horses, I've had, the strongest bonds were with horses I could not stand when I started with them. Somehow they worm their way in and before you know it the relationship becomes strong as the pieces fall into place. My colt I think is going to be one of these. I liked him at the start ( when very young, he had the attitude I was looking for) but as he got older and his studly hormones kicked in, I began to mistrust him and fear him and I think he could read my mind and as a result he mistrusted and disrespected me. Now a little over a month after I gelded him, he is back to the way he was as a baby, very willing with a cheeky, but willing to please attitude. He no longer attacks at feed time, I can get his halter on and off with no problem, I have no problem going in the stall or the paddock with him loose. I do not fear him anymore and he has been really patient even with all the hubbub about his shoeing/booting. He also stopped striking when I put his tendon boots on. Now, he gets praised when he does something right and he knows when that is because his ears prick forward as he listens to me. Whether all this good stuff translates to the racehorse I eventually want him to become, at least both of us are going in the right direction.
Rachelle
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Member:
lhenning
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 24, 2010 - 10:53 am:
Terrie, I do not take offense. I appreciate your insight.
Last night, I tried exactly what you describe (hadn't even read it yet so I must be picking up some of this horse language, lol). I tried to see how little I could do to get a response. First I made myself not use any reins, leg, or seat. I just breathed differently. I breathed with energy for forward movement and let my breath out for stop. He got it! Then I added seat so I could get a few more choices and rode by breathing and sitting differently. Wa la! I was feeling so "with him" last night and as we worked up to more complex maneuvers he was responding better than he has in a long time. I realize I am a micro-manager. Got to step back and be softer.
I did try some "thinking" exercises too. I'm not sure we are there yet, but I have a feeling if I keep using this softer tone of voice that it will lead there. He just needs some time to see I am not going to shout anymore and then he will listen closer.
Angie, I agree completely. Horses are a lot like kids that way. If we see the best in them, they will be the best. I think a great many kids that are in trouble at school are so because their parents only see the worst in them. Sometimes it is hard to look for that good thing, but what a difference it makes when the focus shifts from negative to positive! One of my favorite things to say when I mount up is "today will be our best day".
Sometimes with horses, it is better to not be around them when you really don't feel like it. Better to skip that day than ruin what was accomplished the day before.
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Member:
terrido
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 24, 2010 - 3:29 pm:
OK, I have started a new topic: "Working from thoughts, expectation, a new form of connection"
The link to the discussion is here:
https://www.horseadvice.com/horse/messages/7/352779.html
See you over there....
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