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Discussion on Working from thoughts, expectation, a new form of connection
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Member:
terrido
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 24, 2010 - 3:28 pm:
I am starting a new topic for this, to continue discussion from the thread: "Horses Never Forget Human Friends" because this really is a break out subject, and important enough to have it's own spot, I think.
Anna-Marie you asked, "I see many trainers - even Spanish riding school - they reward with food. What is your opinion on this ?" When I train something new on the ground I always use food as a reward to begin with. ;) I have a friend that says "dressage by bribery is the only way".
Borrowing from what Angie posted, it's HOW the food rewards are used. Just in everything we do, every second with them, we are training our horses. Yes some horses will become pushy or nosy looking for food, again it's training! Set boundaries, stick with them and they learn quickly. It's a matter of being super consistent, firm and assertive yet respectful and just, and always being "with them" and paying attention.
Angie you are so right! Our heads are so cluttered, and this is where we get into issues with horses, our minds wander as a thought flits through and we follow the thought instead of being with the horse, or rather paying complete attention to the horse. Case in point I mentioned my mare, Bella, if my focus wanders, I lose hers. She stays "with me" when I stay "with her".
A small pearl of wisdom: Perception IS reality. Yeah this is a whole other subject!! haha I could write a book on this just in regard to being around a horse. (Well actually I have written a small one, it's just not available yet.) But it is so true! What you think is your reality, how you see and view things is your reality. This can be changed, and when you change how you view things, your reality changes!
What's great about this is that you can use your horse(s) to tell you what your perception is because they tell us every second where we are in our heads. And yes they do tell us what our expectations are. If you have the expectation that the horse will do X, the horse happily does X. If we are unsure then they simply don't do X. If we don't believe they will do X, they don't do X. This is why one person can get a horse to do something that maybe the owner cannot get it to do. Usually it isn't that horse cannot do it, it's often that the owner doesn't believe the horse will, or maybe doesn't believe in themselves enough that they can get the horse to do it. (or also often both!)
All animals react on our expectation. This is what they pick up I think more than anything. Our thoughts are things, and our expectations are thoughts (and it's all an energy). Animals will usually do exactly what we expect them to do regardless of what we say or do. Example: you want your exuberant dog to sit still; you say "sit" but have the expectation that the dog will ignore you; the dog continues being himself and does not sit. Or, dog is going in a direction you don't want it to go, you call it to 'Come' but don't expect that he will actually come, and sure enough the dog does not come to you. Now tell me that you have never had this happen... yeah I thought so. 
When we have confidence in what we are doing with our horses, they comply and are cooperative. Why? Because when we know that everything will be fine, it is. We expect everything to go smoothly, etc. it does.
This may be a small key to getting your young horse to move forward. Try just changing your belief that the horse won't move to one of the horse WILL move! Believe it with your entire being as fact. This is actually the hardest piece of this puzzle. ;) Then try a different physical means to ask the horse to move forward. Maybe put a bit in the mouth and work the horse in-hand and ask the horse to walk forward....
I may be a rare person when I work with a horse. Not sure, but I very rarely get frustrated, and I NEVER get angry! I take each thing in and go from there. I ALLOW MY horses to make mistakes! I encourage it if they do! Then I ask for a correction or for them to try again to do what I am after. Kinda ignoring what you don't want, and trying again. The difference may be that I wait until the horse has forgotten about what I asked to begin with before I ask again.
I also allow my horses to say 'no'. This is a very strange concept to most people. I do allow them to say 'I don't want to.' If I am riding and I ask Bella to do a lateral move and she is having a challenge complying, she may say 'I really do not want to do that right now.' I will go along with that and not ask again that day. I may even just cool her out and get off at that point. Eeegads! Yes, I do this. Again it's the way it is done. I don't jump off the instant she says "rather not..." but I don't ask again for it either. No, I would maybe just walk around to do the 'end of session' coolout or just to change her mind, again waiting until she relaxes and forgets that I asked her to do that lateral move. At that point I end it and get off. Or I may just go do something else like work on suppling a different way. I do ride by what feels to me to be the right thing at that moment.
See? My overall philosophy is vastly different from most. Not many people allow their horses to say "no" and just stop. I do, and I can tell you that my horses WANT to interact with me. When I walk into the pasture they come to me, they try to put their noses into halters, or grab bits to bridle themselves. They want to come out and play! They know that it isn't going to be drudgery, it won't be boring, and they don't necessarily have to do everything I ask. They are allowed to have a voice and a say in what we do.
That being said, yes there are times when I expect them to do as I ask, like if I enter a show I would expect Bella to do as I ask while in the arena for those few minutes. That would be one of the times I would say back to her, 'sorry but we will do this right now.' Would she put up a fight? Nope! I think it is because I let her have a say that when she says 'rather not' and I say "but please do it anyway' she will do it without any fuss at all.
I do sometimes have heated discussions with her, she is rather opinionated, and she knows she can share her opinions. haha It may sound contradictory but I do not perceive it that way. When these things take place it is ALWAYS her telling me that I am not where I need to be mentally for her. ALWAYS. And I am human and do not always instantly see that. Once I admit to myself that she is protecting us from me, I just let her know I get it and things instantly go the way they should. Yeah it is pretty amazing how much they understand!! It's probably my connection with her that allows me to know this, and too I expect her to listen to me, even if it's my words and phrases.
For me it is about keeping that connection, it's about expecting the horse to do as asked (most of the time)and most importantly it's all about how I CHOOSE to view everything going on. I encourage my horses to share with me, so when something isn't working according "to plan" I don't get frustrated, I step back and start over asking them where it's not working. And yeah usually it's me, but sometimes it's the horse. If I am teaching something new, I step way back and break the training into much smaller bits and just begin again. No point in getting frustrated, it's always a process that's all. Get angry?? why? Again I never see any reason to get angry about what's happening.
Horses are completely in the now, they are totally honest (most are), none are mean by nature. They do not do things on purpose, mostly. if they seem to really be doing things "on purpose" they have been taught to do this. Actually this is usually a negative thing a horse might do, and it normally would resort to that when they aren't sure what else to do! Again, MY viewpoint, MY Perception.
Thoughts??
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Member:
lhenning
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 24, 2010 - 5:09 pm:
I don't believe in bribes or maybe you are just using the word differently than my understanding. Bribing sounds like trickery.
My method of food reward is a little different. I use something similar to clicker training. Long ago, I taught my horse when I say "Good Boy!" that means treat. Back when I taught him I would achieved a correct behavior, then I said "good boy" and gave him a treat. Just like the clicker people mark the behavior with a click, I marked it with the phrase.
Throughout our session together he hears this phrase maybe a couple of times. It is for the really great moments so he knows he has done exactly what I want. Even though I don't give him the treat right away, he still knows the treat is coming and the correct behavior is marked. This is because several years have passed and he now associates the phrase and the treat. At the end of our session, he goes into his stall and a big carrot awaits. As I slip off the halter I say "Good Boy!" and he is rewarded and again reminded that the treat and phrase go together.
It is so much simpler than having to carry food around. He has learned many, many things this way.
I like the rest of your ideas.
Linda
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 24, 2010 - 5:10 pm:
Deep Subject. I don't think horses so much can react our perceptions, but what those perceptions do to our bodies. I think a persons demeanor is one of the biggest factors.
A frustrated, angry person, has a frustrated angry demeanor... you know it almost by looking at them or talking to them.
Should horses have opinions..Oh God yes, that is what makes them fun!! Which reminds me of the don't sweat the small stuff thread. When trying to micro manage our horses every move they will get frustrated and rebel.
I think most of us have had that one horse in our lives that really makes us step back and wonder what the heck they are trying to tell us. They are the more opinionated type. As you all know Hank is that horse for me. I couldn't get along with that animal in saddle no matter what my perception was...because my body was telling him he made me a nervous wreck!! We know how we do that grab the reins, tense, lean froward, turn red, heart in throat... I did have a perception of a good ride every once in awhile...but that changed nothing. What has finally after 11 years changed that is learning what makes him tick..there is not a horse in the world that is the same as another...some are just a little more compliant and forgiving of our short comings.
We eventually agreed to disagree, but he was never a reliable ride. So what about the horses perception. I stepped back and wondered what the heck was frustrating this horse so much to make him act like this.. well I wasn't taking his "perception" of what a good ride was into the equation...my way or no way wasn't for him. He was telling me HIS perception of what I was doing wrong. Once I started listening to his ideas and opinions life started getting a little easier with him in saddle. HIS perception was he didn't like me grabbing his mouth out of fear, he didn't like going out by himself...not to be bad but because it scared him to leave the herd, he didn't like me asking him to do what I THOUGHT he was ready to do.
All of these things have a cure for the most part, we need to listen to what their opinions are and TRY to decipher them(not always an easy chore), instead of perceiving them.
I think perception has got me in as much trouble with Hank as anything... because my perceptions were not the same as his
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Member:
terrido
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 24, 2010 - 6:14 pm:
OK, I get what you are saying here.
There is way more to it than just the little I discussed here. Yeah, your perception probably did get you into trouble, depending on what you perceived, and no we often don't 'mesh' with the horse's idea. You hit the nail on the head with the fact that you "listened" to him and tried to figure out what he was telling you. I will bet that your "perception" of the overall situation changed as you learned what he was trying to say.
I have made a conscious choice to change how I view everything Bella does. I could just as easily choose to view everything she does as most people 'see it', that she "is a bad horse". ;) I CHOOSE to see her as a horse that is trying to help ME be what I need to be when with her. It was quite a journey, and I won't go into all of it cause it's a novel in itself! LOL I will just say that I was faced with a huge trust issue and I knew I had a choice in how I would move forward. I chose to blindly trust her, so I had to take a very hard look at her and everything she had ever done. Once I finished that journey I made my decision to change how I perceive things with her.
Just because I choose to view things a bit differently doesn't mean my body or physiology changes. When I am scared, I am petrified, and I mean quite literally. I have been completely paralyzed in terror when on her. No horse likes that. Yup grab the bit, the whole thing, 'cept I wasn't able to think or move. I would be literally frozen in sheer terror. This is not something you can hide or try to push out of your mind. Even choosing to not be afraid doesn't make me any less afraid. For me, the difference was really trying to trust her when I didn't trust her to take care of me. I wasn't able to be the guide for her in those times. So, for me to view what she would do in those circumstances as her way of trying to take care of "us" was the first step.
When I began this long journey I started out with the question of why didn't I trust her. As I went back over every little incident where I had been afraid or had come off and gotten hurt, I had to admit that she hadn't done anything "wrong", 'mean' or 'bad'. I have loads of well meaning friends though that have been telling me for years that the horse is a "bad horse". She is far from it. Again it's how they see things verses how I see it.
There are horses that are not good matches for some people, and for those people that try everything to make it work I give them lots of credit and huge applause. It's so much easier to give up. Course there are matches that are hazardous, having a horse that is too much for example. And yeah I have asked myself if maybe Bella is more horse than I can handle more than once. The answer comes back as a 'nope, she is fine' every time. She is a school master now, and part of her 'teaching' is for me too.
Yup we absolutely owe it to our horses to figure out what they are saying to us. That's is the first thing I see missing from too many horse-human relationships.
As for how we choose to see things I can say that for me this has been what has made the difference. Very soon after I made my decision to view what she did as trying to help 'us' she started really showing me again just how much she was taking care of me when I was on her. Her actions to help me had been gone for a long while, and bam she was back trying valiantly to really help me, and I really needed it.
It's not an easy road though. Changing your thoughts takes concerted effort, and of course time before it becomes the norm for you. I still have friends that think I am crazy, they still tell me that Bella is a bad horse, she shouldn't be trusted at all - ever. I just close my ears and do the 'laa-laa-laa' that my son often does when I say something he doesn't want to hear. LOL I smile and thank them for caring about me and let it go. I choose to not allow their words or views affect my own.
Listening to the horse is paramount. Once we really start to do that this is when the magic can begin to happen, imho.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 24, 2010 - 7:36 pm:
That is why I have to disagree with your statement that perception is reality...it isn't even close.
I do understand what you are saying tho, perceiving the positive rather than the negative most definitely can make a difference.. it spills over in to body language and "positive energy" but perception alone is not going to change an "opinionated" horse. It all intermingles.
My perceptions never really changed much, but Hanks did. He now perceives me as a leader...not to fear leaving the herd. He now knows I will do everything in my power to take his perceptions into account,even if they are unreasonable because his perception is it isn't unreasonable in his world. For the most part I think we all perceive ourselves riding off into the sunset with a trusted partner under us... The horse not so much so...they need to be convinced we are their trusted partner and leader before they even think about changing their perception of the human on their backs.... not so easy with some and very easy with others.
I think in a way you have it backwards, we need to change the horses perspective of the human trying to perceive what THEY THINK the horse should do.
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 24, 2010 - 9:02 pm:
Terrie,
I always enjoy your discussions like this. I admire you for taking the stance you do because many people have the idea that "my horse will do it or else!" attitude. And we do mindless circles on a lunge line, or even ground driving. Or round penning..egads, round and round we go, not just the physical action of moving in a circle, but mentally, how much thinking does a horse need to do when going in a circle? Yes, they are learning to respond to body language, words, and ground driving, IMO, is a great way to teach basics and get a horse used to the bit, saddle, and all kinds of adventures. But our minds can go on auto pilot also doing those exercises, and then we need to ask ourselves what next?
You & I discussed my super sensitive Tango a few times over the last couple of years. He's afraid of things above him...or is he?
Today, thinking about what I had read in your first post above, I did some thinking and soul searching as we started to work. I've went back to basics yet again, determined if nothing else, he will ground drive and do all kinds of fancy things, with my goal being I'll ride him before he dies of old age, lol!
And I figured out something very cool...he's NOT afraid of things/me, above him, he's afraid of NOISE, like scratching on the saddle with whip handle (only a tool, don't whip my horses!..a pointer!)
Today, I used the Natural Ride bare back pad, and those webbed nylon lines, whereas normally I saddle him up, and use to ropes which are a tad heavier. I decided to "lighten up" and to make a long story short, at the end of our time in the arena, he came and stood by me, offered his RIGHT side to me, as I was standing on the log I use for mounting! Now that is a first, the best I get is I can rub his head, maybe almost to his withers, and he is uncomfortable and moves away.
And to what you say, Diane, I think your perceptions had to change to get a change in Hank! I bet if you think back you'll find you started doing at least a few things different. Even spending more time with him doctoring through founder, and all the time with hoof trimming, I bet you weren't thinking constantly that he was a "horned one" as you have been fond of saying. I do think perception ALONE is where we have to start to see a change. A start, because without changing our thinking, our actions don't change. Yes, there has to be more after we change our perception, like follow through and consistancy, yet we have to keep our minds open and be aware that nothing with horses, and people, is 100% the same every time.
One of my favorite statements is "We don't see things as they are, we see things (horses?) as we are."
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 24, 2010 - 9:20 pm:
When all the clinicians started being on TV, I spent hours watching them. And the Parellis' show, which I had the least interest in at first, is now my favorite.
Why?
I love Linda's way of saying that's o.k. when a horse does something. Even if it's wrong, the horse made an attempt and is trying to understand. And everytime I've seen her work with someone, it's a matter of getting the human to do the right thing more than the horse. So what I used to think of as being so foolish; I mean, do Parelli students ever ride their horses?! Now I am very amazed and intrigued by what they accomplish.
About the food/rewards thing. I've often wondered why some horses are pushy at feeding time, or paw, and others just patiently wait. Other peoples horses I mean. I can treat my horses to carrots in the pasture, and they all wait for their carrot. I can let all 4 in one door to get in the barn, and poor Cody, who has to turn sharply to go in his stall then, does fine. (His door was in need of repair for a bit)If I don't want him coming in with the rest, a simple NO WAIT, and he waits. He never runs over me (Gem will!)or gets upset the while I shut 3 stalls and then let him.
I believe it's my intent, and my body language that he's picking up on, with the words secondary.
Only works for me though, anyone else can stand there with the door open, and all 4 go "HUH?"
BTW, Terrie, my JRT does NOT come when called, no matter what my thoughts are! LOL!! I've only owned one very exceptional dog who I swear could read my mind. And like dogs, I think horses have different levels of shall we say, ESP with humans.
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Member:
rtrotter
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 24, 2010 - 9:27 pm:
Terrie & Diane,
If its possible, I think you both are right. I've spent 35+ years retraining racehorses that other people have screwed up, mentally and sometimes physically. I don't do it with force, I do it by finding ways around the problems and using methods that sometimes finds me at the opposite end of the spectrum with regard to my specific discipline. It really isn't easy to go against the traditional grain.
I know my colt reads my mind and I have to be very careful in what I think and he is very smart and picks up on my body language, the funny thing is even at his worst, I didn't blame him, I blamed me because I expected too much of him before he was ready, or I should say I thought he was readier than he was. We have taken a few steps back and are starting to develop the relationship that was there in the beginning where I would gush about what a good little colt he was that he did everything right and he did. What I expect him to be now is a two year old that knows just about nothing, but is very willing to learn, I changed my attitude and now he's changing his. Just being able to get his halter on and off is a thrill for me.
My racemare has a completely different personality(very nervous and everything scares her, even if she's seen it two hundred times)she needs to be on a serious routine, needs a lot of TLC and you have to do everything very quietly around her. I had a hard time dealing with her when I was at the other farm there were too many horses and if she didn't have earplugs on, she would be a raving lunatic. The farm I am at now is much better for her, much quieter, I can tow at night, so she doesn't need earplugs (which annoyed her). I can already tell she likes it better, her ears are up all the time and she absolutely adores my colt ( even though she is not yet turned out with him).
There are so many times that my horses have let me know there is a problem by their body language, I have gotten really good at figuring them out. I think they understand that I am trying to do the right thing, even if sometimes that right thing is not quite understood.
I pity some horse owners who do not take the time to listen to their horses, they would learn a lot and probably wouldn't have half the behavioral problems that they have.
Terrie and Diane you both think with your horses and not for your horses, you collaborate and as a result both you and your horses are better off. Like they say two heads are better than one, and the sum of the parts is greater then each of you separately.
It's the communication that's important and both of you seem to have it whether real or perceived.
Rachelle
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 24, 2010 - 9:57 pm:
OHHH he is still a horned one . I haven't changed my idea of that at all.... I have accepted it... no more perceptions that he will be anything but that.... now we can get along... because I am not going to change that I am now "working with it" I never have had any problems on the ground with him, he has excellent ground manners, I don't even put a halter on him when I trim him, worm him, vaccinate him,clean his sheath ect.
Our problems are all under saddle...but have greatly diminished in the last year.
My perception that he could be changed into something his personality really isn't was a big draw back. You work with what you got! My perception of Hank was turn him into a type of horse I am used to calm, compliant ect... he is not that type. So now his perception of me must change.. I respect and accept him the way he is, he must accept and respect me the way I am.. we are getting along very well like that and he is actually turning into something you can work with. I finally am clicking with the horned one, I have no delusion he will be anything but that... It is his nature, his "horseanality" now that I know I can't change that.. I find I can work with it in my favor... perception..perhaps. acceptance... maybe. I do know once I started working with the horns instead of perceiving I could get rid of them ... things got a lot easier.
 Hank really isn't a "normal" horse tho. I still haven't decided if he didn't get enough air at birth and was brain damaged or if he is exceptionally smart.. my horse friends and I pondered that for a few years... and finally decided on the latter...but it did take a long time to decide. We deemed him "special"
I can't even begin to tell you the he$$ that horse has put me through under saddle. Here on HA you haven't heard even half (the worse half) of Hanks history.
I do believe "perception" would work well on most "normal" horses. You have to get in the heads of the "special ones"
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Member:
terrido
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 24, 2010 - 10:52 pm:
yeah, I hear that! haha So why is it that some of us only ever have those "special ones"?? ;)
I would love to someday have a 'normal horse'! One that is the kid-proof, calm, takes it all in stride, can do most anything, go anywhere horse. *sigh* isn't that a normal horse?? LOL
Your Hank sounds alot like my Owen. He was such a huge challenge for me. And yeah I had to change and then he changed, but I had help. I think Bella was a little easier in that I had changed and not for the better, then I had to more or less 'change back' and she responded to me during the changes I made. One could look at it in other ways, but this is how I view it.
Rachelle, thanks! You are too kind. Anyone that really cares about their horses eventually tries to understand them better. Well too I know lots of people that seem to genuinely care about their horse and I have to bite my tongue and try to look the other way. *sigh*
Angie, JRTs are well, JRTs. LOL I feel for you!!
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Member:
terrido
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 24, 2010 - 10:59 pm:
Has anyone else (Angie I know you have) played with using energy and riding?
Mark Rashid touches on this in his clinics, cause I have ridden with Kathleen Lindley and she gave me a bit of insight to using energy when riding.
I started out using her visualization of a ball of energy at my center of gravity basically, and moving that ball forward or to one side, etc. Bella did move with where I directed the energy.
Once back home from that clinic I began to play a bit further with "my kind" of energy and it was not only great fun, it was pretty enlightening.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 24, 2010 - 11:06 pm:
Rachelle, I have learned on here there are many ways "to skin a cat" I think Terrie is absolutely right that perception can play a role in training a horse, It is only a part of the big picture tho IMHO.
It's almost like hooves, just because I perceive, I can picture it in my head the way those hooves should look, that isn't going to make them look any better. I need to have the tools and skill to get those hooves the way they should be... and even at that they may not reach the perceived notion. They may reach their potential tho... if I develop my skills and learn to read the hoof.
So shouldn't we help the horse reach their potential, within our skill levels and not put any perceived notions on them.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 24, 2010 - 11:13 pm:
Terrie I have a very hard time putting my thoughts into words, but I do understand exactly what you are talking about. I LOVE Mark Rashid... I have read many of his books, that man really understands horses and puts a lot of thought into it. I really liked his book "considering the horse" it gave me great insight into Hanks personality and my problems "reading him"
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Member:
rtrotter
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 25, 2010 - 7:59 am:
Diane,
I actually think you are very good with words, it must be all the practice you get trying to explain things. I think you hit the nail on the head when you used the word potential and trying to find out just what that potential is "for each horse".
Not every horses potential is the same, part of the problem as I see it, is that a great many horses are mismatched with their owners, either at the level the horses is at or the level the owner is at, and instead of owners understanding that, they either wind up fighting constantly or getting rid of the horse( who by this point probably has a bad reputation). A lot of owners just do not want to admit that the horse is not the problem, they are.
As for me, I am going to heed my own words and start paying more attention to what my horses think and feel and that starts with me paying more attention to them on a daily basis. We are going to "play" and have a good time,even if they have to work along with the playing.
Rachelle
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 25, 2010 - 8:58 am:
Terrie,
So, ya, what is it with those of us who are "bored" with a normal horse? My whole life, I've had a horse who had issues of some kind. And during those times, I also had another horse, or 2,3, belonging to hubby or the kids, who was just a nice "normal" horse! So I had one or two to ride, but I've always had my project.
And it seems the special ones pick me. It's always a case of they look at me, and it's as if I feel them asking me to take them home. I can't explain it. I am a rational person who can weigh things out in my mind, and make a decision once the facts are there.
If I had to tomorrow, sell or bury all our horses, I know I would hold out the longest with keeping Tango. Cody would be almost tied with him, but if, God forbid, I had to look at both of them and choose...rationally Cody is the keeper!
Diane,
I think Hank is just smart. Just as Tango is smart. Those are the horses that test us and teach us the most. I think it's in Mark's book "Horses Never Lie" that he solves the problem with a chronic bucking horse. Don't recall the details, but it stuck in my mind as being so simple. The horse didn't want to buck, bucking is hard work!
I don't think any horse wants to be afraid. It's up to us to figure out where their fear is coming from and how to react to it. Saying "ssshhhh, that's o.k." may work with some horses, whereas a firm "Knock it off" may work with another. I have been finding doing nothing but carrying on works really well, the "Sssheee, and/or knock it off" was more for me!
Rachelle,
I agree with the potential being different for every horse. In fact I've owned 2 that I seriously thought should be in the circus! Doing a clown act! And possibly never being used under saddle. Who says a horse must be a riding partner? Of course we hope our horses do something besides eat and ****!
Discussions such as this really open our minds to doing things different with our horses. With open minds, we can "hear" what our horses are telling us and our relationships can become so much better.
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Member:
stek
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 25, 2010 - 11:37 am:
Great discussion guys!
Terrie I love using energy when riding and when working around horses in general. On the ground I use energy to communicate, I think it's the purest form of communication.
When starting a colt under saddle for instance, I first use energy to direct him, teach him gates etc. I usually combine that with body language, and the energy clarifies for the horse what the body language means.
Then I add verbal cues so the horse can develop a vocabulary to associate with the things I'm asking. Then when moving to the saddle I combine energy with the verbal cues. Then lastly I add the mounted body language (a leg behind the girth, picking up a rein etc), with the idea that I will eventually DrOp the verbal cues and use only the mounted body language plus energy.
Using the energy that radiates off your being can make your body language that much lighter. This might be a little 'out there' but bear with me ..
Imagine sitting astride your horse at the halt. You want to move his hindquarters over, so you slide your leg back and apply a little pressure. You are using body language alone to move your horse over.
Now instead of applying pressure, feel the energy in your leg that radiates out, focus on that leg till it feels alive and almost prickly. Move your leg back slightly, then turn up the volume on the energy in that leg. The horse will feel that energy and move off just the same as he would from physical pressure.
I think this is one place we get in trouble with our horses .. we aren't always paying attention to the energy coming out of us, but our horses are, so we are communicating without knowing it and sometimes sending mixed signals...
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Member:
lhenning
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 25, 2010 - 2:25 pm:
"For me, the difference was really trying to trust her when I didn't trust her to take care of me. I wasn't able to be the guide for her in those times. So, for me to view what she would do in those circumstances as her way of trying to take care of "us" was the first step."
Terrie, I am interested in learning more of how you were able to accomplish this.
This past winter I feel like I am on the crux of something really big with my horse and trust is a huge part of that equation. I know inside my bones I need to trust him and let go, but I cannot find it. He is not a problem horse but he is not the calm, easy, fellow you describe either. Somewhere in the middle with a rider that never owned a horse before, so everything I do is trial and error.
I had been focusing so much on him, that I neglected to think about me. That neglect was reflected back to me by his behavior. I see now that he is a mirror of me. This winter, I stepped back and began concentrating more on my riding skills and less on his behavior. I asked very little of him at all, just walk straight and turn when I say. Then I found my center, my allignment, improved my posture, and I began to feel more connected. In a short time, it was reflected back to me in his rhythm and relaxed flowing movement.
Still I grapple with trust. I want to expand, in fact I know we are ready this summer to get on the trails more than we did last year. Tell me how you found a way to trust a horse that has lost all your trust?
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 25, 2010 - 4:53 pm:
Linda I have/had terrible trust issues with Hank. The trainer I took him to when I was at my wits end with him told me I had to learn to trust him or we were going nowhere...but how do you trust a horse that has pulled every stunt in the book, and dreamed up ones that I never thought existed I asked.
Allow him to do as you ask he says, you think he is going to be bad before he is and react before the action... in a way this is the perception Terrie is talking about. I expected bad behavior and got it... but letting go is not easy. You have to build a bond, starting from the ground up, baby steps. Go do something you THINK may bring on bad behavior. My first step was crossing the creek.. Hank isn't afraid of creeks never was...he plays in them and loves water, BUT when we were at out low point he started refusing to go down the path to the creek, OHHH MYYY did we have some arguments over that... very unconfident arguments on my end. I was determined he was going to cross that creek come hell or high water(no pun intended). we always made it across after at least a half an hour argument, which left me shaking in my boots. He would spin, rear, plant his feet and refuse to move.
SO what was I doing wrong I wondered. Well number one I was sending a signal to him that I was scared to cross the creek on his back...expecting a fight I was ready. Telling him to go forward while pulling on the reins (subtly) yet enough he knew I didn't mean it and confused him.
To end this battle I started taking him to the path where the fight always began...stopped right before the place of "action" petted him and went about our business. The poor guy I could feel the tenseness in his body soon as we got near that path. Every day we took one step more down the path and turned around.. he had to learn to trust I wasn't going to jerk him around and send conflicting signals and I had to learn to relax.
Finally after a good week of a step closer everyday to the creek we arrived at the creek. Hooves poised at the edge...I tensed again, waiting for him to jump or start spinning like a wild man, he immediately responded with let's get the hell out of here and we did He didn't trust me and I didn't trust him!!! You CAN feel the moment of truth coming and it is best avoided until you are ready to handle it with confidence.
Another week of getting the hooves to the creek bed and finally we both were relaxed, we finally crossed with confidence and absolutely no issues. I have never had a problem crossing the creek again as long as I don't revert back to MY issues.
In all my problems with Hank this is how we are slowly resolving them...baby steps, I do have to say that the at liberty training has been a HUGE turning point in our relationship and I mean HUGE. When we play at liberty I see all the issues he has with me, they are almost gone under saddle now, he hasn't pulled one of his "stunts" since we started doing the at liberty training, and I have gained confidence that he really isn't a prancing dancing idiot, but a horse with an opinion on the way I go about things. He is becoming more tolerant of my shortcomings, and I of his. Now that I don't perceive he is anything but Hank, a smart, not very forgiving horse, that I must learn to trust...and I absolutely do now!
Trust issues are very hard to overcome for the human and the horse. You must look inside yourself and figure out why you don't trust him and he don't trust you...it may be very simple. Or not
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New Member:
nancynf
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 25, 2010 - 5:06 pm:
In response to Terrie's post, I wanted to say that I agree completely with your approach. I've been caring for, playing with and fascinated by horses ever since I can remember (over seventy years!) and if I had to distill what I've learned into one principal, it's to always keep an open mind and always to assume that miscommunication is your fault and not the horse's.
It's a mistake, I think, to limit your responses to punishment and reward when you're training your horse. Ignoring incorrect or absent responses is often the most effective way to deal with what you might perceive as disobedience. I practically never punish horses anyway, although I often reward them.
I was interested, Terrie, to see that you've written a book about some of these things, and I hope you'll let us know when it becomes available. I wrote a novel myself about dressage schooling just a few years ago. If anyone's curious go to the website www.collectivemarks.com.
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Member:
terrido
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 25, 2010 - 6:31 pm:
This is turning out to be a really good discussion!
Shannon, et al: "This might be a little 'out there' but bear with me ..
Imagine sitting astride your horse at the halt. You want to move his hindquarters over, so you slide your leg back and apply a little pressure. You are using body language alone to move your horse over.
Now instead of applying pressure, feel the energy in your leg that radiates out, focus on that leg till it feels alive and almost prickly. Move your leg back slightly, then turn up the volume on the energy in that leg. The horse will feel that energy and move off just the same as he would from physical pressure. "
Try this /b{without} moving your leg back! Just use the energy on the "leg back" position... *wink*
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Member:
terrido
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 25, 2010 - 7:46 pm:
Linda - I'll attempt to answer your question, "Terrie, I am interested in learning more of how you were able to accomplish this.
<snipped>
Still I grapple with trust. .... Tell me how you found a way to trust a horse that has lost all your trust?"
It wasn't easy, not at all, and I may get really carried away here, but let me try...
I began with the simple question, "why don't you trust your horse?" This was my first step. I did lots of soul searching, being explicitly honest with myself while going over everything we had done together, every instance I had come of her, everything the good, the bad and the ugly. When I emerged from this I had to admit honestly that I had no basis for my mistrust other than my own fear of falling off. Yup I had a wonderful experience hanging on her neck during a frantic bucking frenzy (two bucking frenzies back to back actually) and ultimately was hurt so badly that I was unable to ride for more than 6 weeks. When I got back on her I had that terror I mentioned.
I did the usual things trying to regain my confidence both in my ability (long story there, it was a literal come back cause I was not able to ride physically well for another 9 months) and my confidence in my horse. Yeah and all those well meaning friends telling me I was outta my mind, get rid of her, get a "safe horse", etc. didn't help me! I thought I had been making decent progress until my annual trail ride weekend. As I tacked her up or the first ride out (I am NOT a trail rider and this was our first away from home since my coming off) she was "up" and wouldn't stand still, etc. I began to lose my confidence that I would be able to contain her, would I have the strength to hold her back? etc. I admitted that I really wasn't ready, mentally or physically, I was afraid I would end up being seriously hurt. (I still wasn't exactly 100% physically at this point and I knew it.) That's what began the question, what had SHE done that I no longer trusted her?
Once I had gone over everything my answer was simply that she hadn't done anything at all. She was being a horse, and ya cannot fault her for that. I on the other hand had done lots of things badly. But even though I had to admit in all honesty that there was no reason for me to feel I could not trust her, I of course didn't.
So how to overcome it then, since the usual "conventional" means of riding and pushing myself thru the fear wasn't working?
I decided I should begin with the trust issue. I knew that if I changed how I thought of things in general life changed for me. I decided to try to put that into practice in this area as well. At this point I had nothing to lose really. I made a conscious decision to blindly trust her to take care of me, to look at everything she did as her way of trying to take care of 'us'.
Not easy!! It took lots of mental effort, lots of self talk, lots of faith and lots of loud singing! LOL For example I would be really apprehensive about getting on her because even a slight spook and I would panic and freeze in terror. I would stand on the mounting block and Bella would NOT line up nicely but would walk up, then swing her hindquarters away. Once I decided to listen to what she was telling me about ME, it made all the difference. OK, she won't line up nicely, I know I am scared, she knows I am scared, so she is saying "you are not ready to be on me! I won't allow you to get on." She is taking care of me, us. Good girl. The first time she did this to me was when I had a friend over and our agenda was to do a couple circuits in my arena and then head out into our pasture and ride. 'out' - I was really scared. So Bella told me that I wasn't ready to get on. I think we played the line up game for about 8 minutes and I knew what was happening, but I tried to swallow my fear. Bella kept telling me I wasn't ready. I finally looked at her and said, "Ok, yes I am afraid but we HAVE to do this. I will trust you but you have to try to trust me too." She looked at me a moment and then walked right up aligning the left stirrup at my left knee and stood like a rock. Course I got a lecture about how after all this time that bad behavior should be gone, etc. *sigh* My friend cares about my getting hurt, but she and I have opposite ideas about our horses! She thinks I am really outta my mind (still). We had a fabulous ride, and yeah I was scared, and yeah Bella spooked a few times, but we managed and ended up relaxing and enjoying the ride for a bit.
It's the little things that of course have helped me regain my confidence in my riding ability, and that confidence building helps me trust much easier.
Course today I still have moments, but Bella very quickly after that ride with my friend really began to show me how much she will take care of me. Initially while I was trying to work out of my fears Bella would spook, pop up to a trot, I wouldn't be balanced and she'd just rush trotting much faster. *sigh* During a lesson I asked her to trot and she hesitated, I assured her she should try it, so she trotted for me; I did ok for a bit and then lost my balance as my back spasmed and she instantly slowed to a walk! Finally, she was trying to really take care of me again. The woman I trade lessons with commented on her taking care of me, she noticed it. She still does this if I lose my balance she ties to stay under me and will slow up. In fact if I ask her to trot three times and lose my balance all three times she will just not go to trot for me again that day! Next ride no problem unless I lose my balance. She is also 'asking me' once more about things she is not sure of instead of handling it on her own. She now trusts me to be there for her too, again.
This was much longer than I wanted to write in here, but I think explains a bit about how I did it. I had to start with just lots of pep talk, Bella would spook at something and I had to convince myself that she felt a need to get ME away from it quickly. I had to do alot of that!! The mounting block incident for example, I had to see her actions as her telling me I wasn't ready to get on. Everything she did that usually would be viewed as "bad behavior" under saddle I had to convince myself it was her way of taking care of me.
Trying to just hide my fear doesn't work with her either. She demands complete honesty from me. So when I am scared on her I know it, she knows it, so I sing loudly! Yeah an old thing to do, it keeps me breathing, helps me not focus so much on my fear, buys me time.
It was really strange to be a darn good rider and then experience this paralyzing fear. Course when you can't balance on a moving horse it's pretty easy to be afraid! ;)
Oh and the reason for her bucking? The saddle being too far back on her combined with my giving her a hard halfhalt literally slamming into her kidney area. I'd buck too! This happened twice and with two different saddles BUT it was the same cause with both. My dressage saddle went bye-bye and I have a nice new one that fits her back perfectly yet allows for her huge shoulder. (It will need to have the panels redone probably this fall after bulking her up again so that the rear of the saddle doesn't go past that last rib it sits on right now. She is super short backed. The second saddle was a little western saddle, same thing her shoulder pushed it back on her, she bolted, I gave her a super hard half halt slammed into her kidneys she instantly bucked. I rode that one, and bailed. Got hurt but not near as badly as the previous time. That first time she bucked solid for about 4 minutes, then slowed to a trot and then started bucking again. I was pretty messed up with that one. Anyway the bucking was pain related pure and simple. So I make sure my dressage saddle is where it should be, don't ride in the western any more at all, and if she should decide she wants to canter I will just ride it out and not demand harshly that she slow up! LOL She is a super sensitive horse, and is used to saddles not hurting, used to me not hurting her... she is a bit of a "princess and the pea", if her toes get a bit too long she tells me she cant possibly move! LOL so when the saddle caused her sharp pain, course I did it, she did what a horse in pain SHOULD do. I cannot fault her for that. In fact after the western saddle bucking fit she had two really hot to the touch hard knots one on each side of her spine where I had sat down on her. Again, my lack of confidence in my ability was the true cause. I should never feel a need to slam her down to a walk like that. Never!!
fwiw... if you'd like a copy of my ebook on this whole thing just let me know.
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Member:
stek
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 25, 2010 - 9:05 pm:
Very interesting Terrie.
Re: just thinking of moving your body to direct the energy, IMO part of how that works is you are actually making small physical cues that you don't realize, like twitching/tensing a muscle involuntarily and the horse picks up on it.
One of my friends recently lost half his leg in a motorcycle accident. When the drs sewed him up, the made sure to attach specific nerves to specific large muscle groups so that he can eventually get a prosthetic that can translate those signals. So now when he thinks about moving his toe, a muscle in his thigh twitches. Pretty amazing how it is all connected.
I'm sure you've ridden horses that go where you look; they are feeling the weight shift when you turn your head, change the tone in your torso, etc. The energy bit is maybe a little more mystical but connected I think.
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Member:
juliem
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Posted on Friday, Mar 26, 2010 - 12:12 am:
I don't think anyone would argue that horses pick up on our fear. A few years ago I was on a trail ride with a lady who was riding an older Arab gelding. I watched that gelding taking care of her (and she needed it!) for a couple of hours. She knew we would come to a creek crossing and she told us at the beginning of the ride Safira would not cross water and she was turning around and coming back when we got to the creek. As we got closer, she began to talk more and more about the horse being afraid of the water and I could tell she was the one who was scared. Before we got to the creek, the gelding was trembling! He was indeed terrified, but we weren't even close to the water. When we got to the creek, she stopped and said she was going back. I asked her to let me try to take her horse across--I'd seen what a kind old guy he was before she got him tuned into her fear. At first she refused, saying she didn't want to fight with him. I assured her, I wouldn't fight with him if it came to that. I got off my horse, walked up to her poor shaking boy, put my hand on his forehead, told him how brave I knew he was, etc. As soon as she got off him, he stopped trembling. He wasn't afraid of the water, he was just tuned into her fear and sharing it. I got on that boy, walked him up to the water, reassured him and he crossed like a champ. It wasn't any particular skill on my part, he just didn't feel any fear from me so didn't see any reason to be afraid himself. And after that, she wasn't afraid either and never had trouble again with water.
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Member:
terrido
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Posted on Friday, Mar 26, 2010 - 12:51 am:
Shannon, true enough, you will not get an argument form me about the minute changes our bodies will make when we just think of things.
I offer to you to go and play with this, attempt to remove your body from the equation. ;) Yup, meaning take your legs off the horse completely and use your "energy leg". Send the energy where your leg would be and go to ask the horse to move sideways, or move hindquarters, etc.
Sit centered, square and quietly, looking straight ahead, send your energy to the right, left, forward, halt, reverse... etc. I have actually pulled my knees up on top of the saddle so I am just sitting on my butt with 'no legs' and used the energy to move Bella. I am very good at sitting very still and very quiet on her. (I ride classical dressage, when we wish to make a turn step we don't look in the direction, we always look between the horse's ears, forward. *wink*) Well ok, so our chin should be always where the horse's chin is.
Anyway play with it. Try to remove as much of your body as possible from the experiment. I think you will be pleasantly surprised.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Mar 26, 2010 - 7:06 am:
Julie as we all know trust and respect is not transferable to the horse from one person to another, but you did state what did help me in some of my trust issues. I was scared to canter Hank, I was sure he was going to go on a bucking spree or SOMETHING evil, and I'm sure he would have at that point with me telling him to!
I had the trainer come out and work with Hank and me, as I knew I was over faced. Once I saw the trainer canter Hank with no issues, it made me see I could too. It did make me loose my fear of it and we learned how to canter with no problems.
Sometimes having someone else ride your horse that you deem "untrustworthy" can open your eyes to what/who is the real problem. The trainer said he could take Hank in a A rated show and win... I couldn't even get him down the road... . In my defense he did say Hank was a difficult horse, I just wasn't ready for such an animal. Hank has been a great teacher all around about everything from hoof to head. He has been my favorite horse I have ever had... even tho he scared the crap out of me
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Friday, Mar 26, 2010 - 9:05 am:
Amazing stories guys!
Diane, I struggled for years getting Willow to cross water. She was terrified of it if she could SEE it. Swampy grass, not so clear water? She would go. I spent hours fighting her to get her across mere mud puddles, and we both would be drenched in sweat, but her hoofs wouldn't even be muddy. If she could jump a small stream she would clear it with miles to spare!
I think my breakthrough in thinking like a horse came the day she crossed a flooded creek bed...over her knees mind you! I BELIEVED she would cross it, stayed calm, and just gently kept her facing it. I didn't fight her, I kept looking to the other side, and I acted as if I had all day, and really didn't care if we went through the water or not. It wasn't an hour long fight, a few minutes of "discussion" and she went through like a walk in the park.
Terrie,
I think Tango is Bella's brother. I can relate to so much of what you write, and you've given me a lot to think about. I know I have seen improvement since I quit thinking he was a/an ______, well, you get my drift! He's not anything bad, just aching to feel whole for lack of a better way of putting it. I sense that from him like I've never felt from a horse before. And I feel like I should be smart enough to figure this out for his sake.
Like you Linda, I feel like I am sooo close to something changing. Maybe I just need to get on and start riding? If we are prepared with a few emergency techniques, a helper, and all the stars are lined up correctly that day...ha ha.
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Member:
rtrotter
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Posted on Friday, Mar 26, 2010 - 9:47 am:
Speaking of breakthroughs, I had one with my colt this morning. Previous to today and because of the problems I had with him during one of our snowstorms and missing getting killed when he reared up and struck at me, I have not gone into his paddock while he was loose. After I turned him out this morning, I noticed some boards down and had to go into the paddock to fix them.
Instead of worrying about where he was, (he has a habit of charging me and not respecting my space), in my mind I told him to stay away and I went about fixing the fence. Guess What? He stayed put, never even attempted to come near me, after I left, he came down to where his hay was and started eating. Normally, if there is food in the paddock he tries to protect it or get to it and where I was fixing the fence was only a few feet away from his hay pile. He didn't even attempt to go near it until after I was out of the way.
I am going to attempt to deal with his biting like this, while that has considerably calmed down, it still is there. I think its my thoughts that assume he is going to bite and when he does he is giving me exactly what I want even though, I am trying to say not to do it. My mantra for today is to think positive thoughts when with him and try not to have the word bite in my mind when dealing with him.
Rachelle
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Member:
lhenning
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Posted on Friday, Mar 26, 2010 - 10:45 am:
Diane, the baby steps method does seem like a good idea. I've been thinking of that myself. I do feel ready to push myself to doing something that is a little out of my comfort zone, because I know that is the only way to move forward. I too have noticed my "go" request with "stop" energy and stepped back to ask myself "do I really want him to go?".
Terrie, thank you. I think what you are saying is that I need to see my horses actions differently. The actions that led to my falling off him and the actions since then that keep fueling my fire of fear. I don't trust because I get afraid of him and I know why I am afraid. It is because I hate being out of control. I never really thought of him trying to "take care" of me before. I don't know why because I know he likes me and considers me his friend. I also know he respects me and sees me as his leader, except when I get nervous. What I never thought of is why my nerves cause things to go sour.
To see it differently, I need to believe that the situation made me afraid and I froze, so Cutter chose to take control to keep us both safe. He is one of the more dominant horses in his herd and he is very protective of them, so why would he not feel the same toward me? (This is an "Ah Ha" moment). That whole idea of him trying to keep me safe is something I never thought of before.
In my head I know I have the skills to ride safely, but those fear gremlins have a way of popping in there even when my head says all is well. I need to believe in Cutter in my heart and soul along with believing in myself. Sounds so simple
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Member:
lhenning
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Posted on Friday, Mar 26, 2010 - 10:50 am:
Oh, I forgot. Terrie, I would like a copy of your ebook. My email is in my profile.
Thanks!
Linda
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Member:
dove2
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Posted on Friday, Mar 26, 2010 - 11:58 am:
I can't tell you all what a timely discussion this is for me. In the past few days, I've actually been thinking of selling my (daughter's) mare, Rita. I've had her from age 3 until now (she's just turned 8) and have been "afraid" of her since the beginning. The reason being that she is so "defensive" about herself. Humans, no doubt, made her this way. She had six owners by the time she was three! I'm the sixth. I truly believe she's just had to fend for herself, to protect herself. She must have had some real yah-hoos.
But back to the present: when my trainer/riding instructor came for the first time since last fall, she hopped on Rita and immediately felt unsafe. This trainer is a very experienced, capable and typically fearless rider. But this day, she felt like Rita was ready to rear, so she decided to lunge her first. Well, Rita did rear; over and over again. Rearing seems to be her "new" way of handling stress. Case in point: during a neighborhood trail ride last Fall, my daughter kept fighting her, holding her back behind my horse on the trail, until Rita finally reared with my daughter, causing daughter to fall off. Fortunately, daughter knew not to hold onto Rita's head so as to not pull her over on top of herself. Long story short: I was initially terrified of Rita when we first got her, she's extremely sensitive so reacts to that fear. Slowly, however, over the years, I have grown and have tried to work through this fear, and for the most part, have succeeded.
This past week, however, with the rearing issue starting up again, I've confirmed that Rita is the type of horse that needs constant riding. I should not have expected her to be like my horse and pick up where we left off last Fall. (No pun intended.) I started to think she is too much horse for me. After all, I've only started riding five years ago and don't consider myself a very confident rider. So thoughts of: Would Rita be better off with someone who gives her a job to do? Rides her constantly? Has her as a sole horse (she thrives on being someone's sole horse - and was quite disappointed when my daughter didn't give that to her)? Someone who is much more confident with horses in general, so Rita can relax more?
Or should I continue to work with her, in spite of my anxieties over getting hurt, or being scared to get on her back? Why am I scared? She spooks so easily, and I'm not helping the situation by my nervousness. When is it right to acknowledge that a person may be overfaced with her horse? My guilt feelings alone prevent me from selling her off. Well, and I did promise her I would never harm or desert her.
It's so helpful to hear of you experienced riders feeling many of the same fear issues that it puts my own insecurities in better perspective. I know Rita is so sensitive, she does react to energy and my thoughts. She wants a confident and trustworthy person as much as I want a confident and trustworthy horse!
Her breeding is of a cow horse and she would probably love cutting. I want a dressage partner, at least until she finds the better frame is better for her back. Can you hear the conflicts in my mind? This has been therapeutic just to put these dilemmas out there, and I'd be very interested in anyone's feedback.
P.S. Terrie, I too, would love a copy of your ebook. Your posts have been extremely influential.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Mar 26, 2010 - 5:31 pm:
Dove do you WANT to take this on??? If you don't want to and don't have the skills to handle such a horse she could hurt someone. Rearing is a dangerous habit and one that needs to be stopped before it starts. Hank decided rearing was a good way to scare the crap out of me and one of the best evasions there was.. it lasted exactly 2 days and he has never reared again. I went to the trainer the first day he did it to me and asked how to stop it. He said forward motion HUH???? If you hold back energy guess where it is going in the horse??? straight to the backend and UP. Keep those feet moving, a moving horse can't rear.
HMMM well my problem with Hank wasn't holding back the energy... I didn't think, because he would literally lock up and REFUSE to go forward, I would very fragily ask him to go... NOPE don't want to It was in that moment of time I could FEEL the rear coming, before it did and would immediately disengage his hindquarters... that worked.
BUT that wasn't the problem why did he lock up to begin with?? Number one I had absolutely no right to be asking him to do the things I did, he wasn't ready and I most certainly didn't ask them with confindence either! YES I did cure the rearing problem quite quickly thankfully, but then it came out as other misbehavior's... he would back down a road 100mph and if there was cliff there we were going to go off it, there was no stopping him, the boy was out of control and I was scared to death of him.
Honestly if I didn't love that horse so much he would have been gone a long time ago..he was way to much horse for my skill levels. It took away the joy of riding.. I dreaded it every time I put a saddle on him, but I think ya all have figured out I have a bit of a stubborn streak and by george we WERE going to get along!. I read books, watched videos, I have read about what Terrie is talking about, I TRIED to believe he was a good boy and our ride would be good, and once in a blue moon it was, but I was truly a disbeliever, Hank was going to be Hank.
In retrospect Hank was a good boy, my nervousness, and lack of riding skills made all this bad behavior happen. Do you know why Hank backed down the road 100 mph and started rearing??? I bet most of you do
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Member:
terrido
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Posted on Friday, Mar 26, 2010 - 11:15 pm:
Rachelle,
When thinking around a horse the negatives don't register. ;) You think "don't bite" and all that's heard is "bite" because they have no sense of the "not" side of things.
Yup stay positive, the trick is to make a positive statement from a negative thought. Like instead of thinking 'don't bite' try thinking "keep your mouth away".
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Member:
terrido
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Posted on Friday, Mar 26, 2010 - 11:46 pm:
Dove, I always say follow your gut first and your head second. What you have written says to me that you want to find another horse to work with. In all honesty I think that would be the best course in this case.
But if you decide to stick with her, then I highly suggest you plan to continue with training. But know that it may be many years before you are both confident in each other and more or less safe together.
There are also other ways to work with a horse that I would be happy to share with you if you decide to stick with her. I guarantee it will help you both.
Oh and for you and for Rachelle (anyone else too) My good friend John Lyons says "ride where you can, not where you can't." Sage advice!!
Part of my journey back from fear included this. I had already been doing this, again with well meaning friends telling me I would never progress if all I ever did was ride in a small circle in the middle of my arena. They also suggested that I go ride another horse to get my confidence back. ;) I love my friends, but I don't listen to them.
What John Lyons says about 'riding where you can' is to RIDE, ride a circle and change direction and ride a circle. If you or your horse is afraid to ride a large circle, ride a small one over and over and over again, and then when you feel ready increase the circle one step outward and ride more circles. This is great if your horse is afraid of something, you ride your circles away from the thing, then slowly (as you are ready) ride those circles a little closer, etc. until you are riding those circles right next to the thing. Meanwhile if it takes an hour you have ridden how many circles?? How much basic training is that for you and your horse? (This was an Ah-hA moment for me) Anyway this is also what I did. I rode where I felt safe in my arena. Bella, bless her, doesn't care all she cares about is having fun together! (She is a dressage horse for sure.)
As to riding another horse, well for me that wasn't the issue. Believe it or not, I could get on any other horse and be just fine, because that horse wouldn't have done anything. Not a confidence builder for me, but I am not normal. For many people working through fear riding a known safe horse until they feel confident to ride their horse usually works well. My problem is only with MY horse, I can ride anything else and not have any problems, but when I get on my horse... *sigh* I knew I had to work through this on MY terms in my way and on MY horse.
There are lots of things you can do to help you move through fear. Having someone push you past your comfort zone may work for you, didn't work for me. I decided to push myself out of my comfort zone only when I felt ready for it.
I did work with someone to hep me get my balance back and that trainer pushed me way out of my comfort zone all the time. It scared the crap outta me and for the first time in my life I would cry all the way home, and think of ways to get out of my next lesson! I only worked with that person for a couple months and will say that they helped me with my riding in balance very much, but did little for my overall confidence. And get this... I would be on longe, no reins, no stirrups, had to ride Bella in a shoulder in on the circle, go from halt up to trot and back to halt, BUT once in trot had to do both rising and sitting (back and forth) plus ride collected trot, working trot and medium trot! Yup all rising and sitting, no stirrups, no reins and while holding her in shoulder in! Ugh! We did canter a little, but I was so petrified I would burst into tears. Yet I did it, but I still felt all off balance in the process. I know dumb, huh?? You would think that would have really boosted my confidence in my ability and in Bella because the slightest half halt off my seat and she was right there, everything I asked she gave happily and instantly even a nice square halt. It didn't work though because I still felt insecure in the saddle because my body was unbalanced. Like I said, I am not normal. LOL
So I started riding small circles in the center of my arena, and grew from there.
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Member:
lilo
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 27, 2010 - 10:23 am:
This is a most interesting discussion. Many a story I could contribute to this, but need some time to think which might fit the topic the best.
Also - some questions come to mind that you folks might have some suggestions for ...
I only want to address one topic briefly - that of rearing. This is indeed very dangerous. My gelding (who will be featured in most of the stories) used to get "light" in front whenever I needed to hold him back (as on the trail, when trying to maintain distance from the horse in front). I fully agree with Diane's trainer here - if you can, give them a long rein and ride them strongly forward. Or, if there is room, disengage the hind quarters. Definitely, do not keep the reins short.
Terrie - thanks for bringing up John Lyons. I often think of his saying - ride where you can, not where you can't. I have started to use one of my pastures for training my gelding. Reason: it takes less time than riding to the arena, which is a half mile away. Secondly, he is close to my mare. A lot of our problems have to to with my mare calling to him. Unfortunately, she can see the arena, so will call to him there also.
Obviously, being herd sour is one of my problems.
Well, looking forward to the continuation of this thread.
Lilo
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 27, 2010 - 5:04 pm:
I had an amazing ride on my Horned one today, I wanted to share what he did after our ride..it was one of the neatest things.
We have a routine when we get home which is part of his ongoing training NOT to Prance on the way home and get all wound up. We get back I park him in front of the tack shed, slide his saddle off and immediately take him to the paddock with the bridle still on. I DO NOT want him associating getting home with any type of reward. I take the bridle off and tell him how wonderful he is (if he was!) They are getting pasture turnout for a couple hours in the afternoon, so I started walking to the gate to let them out, Hank Hog right on my shoulder. He was a bit sweaty, he got a pretty good workout today and I figured he wanted to go roll then bury his head in grass.
I opened the gate and stood at the top of the hill he took off cantering down to the bottom, made a big loop around the whole thing (the other 2 had their heads buried right away) He looked awesome cantering the big loop at the end of the loop he turned up the hill right towards me, stopped immediately in front of me and stood there looking happy and ignoring the grass. I said what??? he just looked at me with the nicest look in his eye, I petted him and off he went to roll. It was like he was thanking me for finally "getting it"...WEIRD
It reminded me of a victory canter
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 27, 2010 - 9:11 pm:
Congrats Diane, Hank thinks you "get it" finally! Love it, love it!!
I don't know much about John Lyons methods but I do recall reading a story about a very frightened horse. (This might have been a Rashid story, or Dorrance) This horse went berserk in the open, so they started out riding him by putting panels together to make a very small pen. As the horse learned to remain calm, the pen became bigger and bigger.
I've actually done that with Tango, "riding" in his stall which is about 13 x 14, high ceiling. I have no fear he will spook and bolt, and surprisingly, I've done lots with asking for lowering his head, moving his hind quarters over, 3 steps forward, halt, back 3 steps. Mostly just a lot of sitting on him, bare back and saddled. It may sound crazy, and very dangerous, yet he's in a comfortable spot, nothing bad happens in his stall, and I feel safe. (Helmet on of course!)
Our next step will be the round pen as soon as I have a helper just in case there is a spook/bolt/off the races. I've noticed horses can go pretty darn fast in a 60' circle! And fall down too. After the helper's rope comes off, very small circles and gives it will be!
Terrie,
I'd love a copy of your book too.
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Member:
dove2
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Posted on Sunday, Mar 28, 2010 - 8:40 am:
Diane, your ride story gave me goose-bumps! I'm so happy for your victory! You've made tremendous progress with Hank in the past year and it really inspires me to continue on with Rita.
Terrie, your words have eased so much of the pressure I've put on myself. I used to think I was ridiculous hand-walking my mare, but I see that's not the case at all. As a matter of fact, these baby steps seem to be the best way to get huge results. In this world of instant gratification, I think I've forgotten the sensation of working towards something in small increments. I also have to remember to look back once in awhile and recognize the progress.
Lilo, I never thought I would have to deal with the problem of rearing and am most interested to hear how you deal with it. It's one thing to say to move the horse forward, but it's a horrible feeling to ask the horse to move forward yet the horse doesn't, but spins or rears instead. Then what? I only hope I'm astute enough to ask for her head at my knee. She's very soft and gives her head easily while on the ground.
The funny thing about this mare is that she does respond (for a short while anyway) to my words that I will never hurt her or let any harm come to her. She's as equally needy for confidence and security as I am.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Mar 28, 2010 - 11:27 am:
Dove I am not trainer so can only go by my experiences. It does sound as if you are pushing Rita a little too far and expecting more than she is ready for, that got me into a lot of trouble with Hank. I didn't leave the arena with Hank last year until I felt ready. I didn't go out of the yard for awhile, then the baby steps to each goal.
Pushing Rita beyond her comfort zone is what is bringing out the bad behavior and in turn making you nervous (she does sound like a handful) Get to know her in the comfort zone, before venturing out. Somedays my sessions with Hank were 5 minutes, if I felt it just wasn't the day because my nerves were on end we just quit before the "conflict" began. We can't stay in the comfort zone forever, but just taking one step out of it and going back can go a long way in developing trust, and confidence.
Good Luck with Rita, if you decide to keep working with her let us know how it goes. If you don't continue, you should not feel bad.
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Member:
lilo
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Posted on Sunday, Mar 28, 2010 - 3:32 pm:
Diane - great story about Hank's behavior after a good ride. You really have come a long way - very inspiring.
Dove2 - the idea about riding strongly forward is that it should stop the rearing. As far as yielding the hind quarters - yes, it could lead to a spin. My mare actually spun out right from under me one time. She was looking at something scary (about 10 riders galloping wildly in the arena, kicking up a lot of dust) and I tried to turn her into a circle to get her feet unstuck. Bad move - she spun around to keep her eyes on the scary horses, and I hit the dirt!
I have since decided that sometimes it is better to get off. Generally, I feel safer on top of the horse rather than leading them, because when they switch into their "right brain" mode, the reactive one, they don't always respect my space.
I guess it is a case by case decision. However, when leading I try to stay next to them, rather than right in front of them. Hard to do on a narrow trail, I know.
I believe Terrie will have some insight into this issue.
Lilo
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Member:
terrido
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Posted on Monday, Mar 29, 2010 - 5:50 pm:
It's never easy to think what to do in instant situations. This is where experience comes in, and even then we can choose to do something that may not turn out as well as we hope.
Knock wood I have never had a horse rear up on me, I have had one "levade" (partial rear, the horse sits on haunches, forehand raised and at about a 30 degree angle to the ground) many times, but he never went all the way up on his hind legs in a rear. Still to get him down it was asking him to go forward. That's all I know of to do if a horse rears, and you stay on, ask them to move forward. ;) Hopefully they won't leap forward while staying up (courbette) but will bring their forehand back down and place forefeet on the ground.
As to space respecting when the horse's attention is on being a horse, well the only thing I know of is to have a great relationship of trust and respect. Other than that having like a whip to use as a reminder for them to move off of you when you are on the ground, or rein ends, anything really, helps.
It's not much fun to get knocked down and run over that's for sure. Most horses will try to avoid stepping on you unless they are cornered and cannot avoid you. Still having them away enough to begin with is the best course of action. Yup always remain 100% in the moment when faced with dismounting while the horse is focused on being a horse. Pay close attention and try to be quick on your feet. Course once on the ground, you should be able to ring your horse's attention back to you by doing a normal ground thing, get them moving and working.
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Member:
lilo
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Posted on Monday, Mar 29, 2010 - 9:41 pm:
Terrie - thank you. And you are right about being 100% in the moment when dealing with a situation. I took the gelding out for a ride (along the roads, the trails are all messy and slick from the last snow storm) with a friend. Thought of this discussion and decided this would be a good ride. It was. There was the time when a cold wind came across the road and he got anxious - got to trotting, but did not do anything dangerous. We were not far from home, so we did some slow trotting. Walk on a long rein was not in the program until I was almost alongside our property. Still - overall a very good ride.
Lilo
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Member:
npo33901
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Posted on Friday, Apr 9, 2010 - 7:01 am:
Great discussion -Terrie, how can I get you book ?
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Member:
lilo
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Posted on Friday, Apr 9, 2010 - 11:45 am:
OK - all you proponents of slow breathing and positive thoughts - I need help.
Took the gelding, Jose, out yesterday with the same friend, same route. However, lots of spooks and spins along the way.
First - a long, dark roll-off dumpster along the road where it never had been before. Inching past it, got nearly to the end when my friends horse spooked (a rare occurrence). Spook, spin, back at the starting point. Got by it the second time.
A little while later, heard a voice calling behind my and almost the same instant a biker whizzed by. Spook, spin .... The biker was a friend (former horseback rider, of all things). He stopped and tried to have Jose approach him, was not going to happen. I told him if he slowly rode away, all would be fine and it was.
Next incident - two horses loose in the pasture, the younger one (about two years old) starts racing around in small circles just as a truck drives by us without slowing down. Sensation overload for poor Jose, spinnig and prancing until we were well past that pasture.
All this time I am trying to breathe, but obviously not effective in calming Jose down.
After separating from my friend (whose horse never spooked after the first incident) and heading up my street, a herd of deer explodes from the bottom of the gully and up the opposite bank. Another spin - we stop, watching the deer with me petting him. Got lined up again - friend's second horse whinnies, another spin, then home at a slow prance (could not really call it a trot). This last incident has more to do with being herd sour - he acts the same way if my mare whinnies.
What a ride. I know it will get better after a few more rides, but what I don't know is how to calm a horse down when the pastured horses we have to pass along the way get going, excited about the diversion, and gallop gaily along their fence lines (or in circles along the fence line, as the filly did). If at the same time you have traffic on the road, you can't really work your horse (shoulder in, side pass, circles). I just somehow try to get past the trouble spot.
Ideas, anyone?
Lilo
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Member:
stek
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Posted on Friday, Apr 9, 2010 - 12:41 pm:
Lilo I can suggest three things: practice, practice and practice
Seriously, sounds like you had the perfect storm of crazy stuff happening on your ride. Any horse that has a tendency to spooking (not sure if this is true for Jose or not) would do well just to complete the ride.
For me when out on a ride like that I try not to let the pressure/nerves build, but treat each incident as a separate obstacle. When we get through one, I try to feel elated at getting through it rather than rattled at how tough it was. The more I ride my own spooker in scary environments, the more we both learn that we can live through it and the less dramatic it becomes.
As a general rule, as I'm sure you know the more you can practice spooky stuff in a controlled environment the easier it will get. Setting up an obstacle course back in the arena helps. Getting a friend to ride with you and pass you at high speeds (start with just the trot of course) will help your horse stay under you when other horses are galloping around nearby. 'Chasing' scary things like bicycles can be a real confidence builder for your horse.
Congrats on surviving a difficult ride
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Member:
canter
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Posted on Friday, Apr 9, 2010 - 1:10 pm:
Yikes, Lilo, I think even those with nerves of steel would have been a bit rattled by your ride!
I agree with Shannon: the more things you can expose your horse to in a controlled environment, the less likely he will be to spook when away from that environment.
Ask the friend on the bike to zip by your pastures a few times (if practical) and perhaps stop and give the horses a treat so that they see it as no threat. You may want to even ride a bike around your own property, ensuring the horses see it's YOU and can smell your scent before doing it with someone they don't know.
If it's safe, take Jose next to his pasture and have someone rile up the horses left in the pasture. If he gets riled up, keep him working. If he stays calm, he can graze or receive a treat.
Create as many 'uncomfortable' situations as you can think of where you know you can safely handle him from the ground and acclimate him to those situations...when he is less reactive, consider exposure while you are in the saddle, but near home...and then where you are riding, but further from home. As he becomes less and less reactive, you both will gain confidence.
Baby steps...
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Member:
terrido
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Posted on Friday, Apr 9, 2010 - 1:42 pm:
Lilo, I agree with Shannon, but will add that setting up obstacles in a controlled environment will help you way more than your horse, cause let's face it "out" is way different than being "in an arena". My horse for example does just fine with obstacles in an arena, it's when we are "out" that everything is different and scary. I have said more than once I am NOT a trail person so going out is scary for me as well. ;) Yeah I know doesn't help, huh?
I also agree with taking baby steps, maybe not planning to go too far the first few times, and if you can get to one spook and through then maybe just go back home to safety too. I don't know you or your horse, so do what you feel will help you both there.
I would however NOT pet him if he is at all tense when you do stop and watch something scary. Goes along with when you reward and when you ignore. Do not reward his tension!! He needs to be completely calm and fully relaxed before you pet and reward in any manner. Soothing talk is also a reward!! Remember we tend to be verbal as a species and horses really aren't.
I highly recommend you teach him a calm-down cue, teach him to lower his head on a verbal cue, with your hands, whatever. Keep asking him to put his head down, this will relax him.
That's all I can think of for now. Good luck and just keep at it.
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Member:
lilo
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Posted on Friday, Apr 9, 2010 - 2:45 pm:
Thank you all for your advice. I have for a long time wanted to set up training with ATVs, dirt bikes and other types of bikes. There is an ideal place next to the arena (dirt road which ends in a cul-de-sac). Have not gotten too far, because I seem to have more problems with my horses than most.
Most folks ride quarter horses, for starters, which are by nature not as reactive. I have once set up a de-spooking clinic in the arena, which was very effective, but did not involve motorized bikes or similar noisy contraptions. As time went by, more and more folks ride motorbikes, ATVs and similar stuff around the neighborhood.
His large paddock actually is along the road (not very close, however). So he could observe a lot of traffic out there, but since it is at a safe distance, it does not bother him so much.
I like the idea of setting up horses running or passing me - could maybe do that with this particular friend I rode with. She could be in the arena, and I could be outside the arena. Most the pastures we have to pass are not suitable, because they are right along the roads and we can't really stop the traffic.
Terrie - I agree with you about not petting while they are acting up. I did it after he stopped and watched the deer.
On a positive note - we are making progress with cars passing and dogs. This horse knows the neighborhood - I have had him for almost 9 years and we have ridden the roads and trails all this time. However, every spring we seem to have to start over .......
Thanks again,
Lilo
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Member:
lilo
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Posted on Saturday, Apr 17, 2010 - 12:00 pm:
Another ride on Jose - same route, same friend along. This time went a lot better, but we did not have scary incidents ganging up on us.
The dark colored roll-off dumpster - no issue at all. Bikers never appeared out of nowhere. The filly continued grazing instead of racing in circles along the fence line. However - the school bus was a bit of a problem! Big, yellow, noisy and close by, plus the squealing air brakes! Jose got uptight and I had to let him trot for a bit - no spinning, however. Lots of deep, slow breathing on my part helped a bit.
The last mile or so is along a very busy road, and this was high traffic time. Not a problem. However, as we got close to home and stable mates started calling, he got anxious. I had to let him trot until next to our lot, then he walked home on a long rein.
I am still thinking about setting up some training with bikes, dirt bikes etc., because I realize I was somewhat lucky on this ride.
Lilo
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Member:
stek
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Posted on Saturday, Apr 17, 2010 - 2:07 pm:
Glad to hear you had a better ride this time! Every good ride will build towards the next even-better ride!
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Member:
lilo
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Posted on Saturday, Apr 17, 2010 - 7:53 pm:
I sure hope you are right, Shannon. I could use a few good rides in a row!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Apr 18, 2010 - 8:46 am:
Lilo, Jose is your prancer isn't he? You have seen me go thru the trials and tribulations with Hank and his nervousness. Consistency is one thing that will help you along, but as long as you remain nervous so will he. I understand it is hard not to get nervous when you are on the back of a horse who could "react" at any time. Once you gain confidence so will he. One thing that helped me with Hank was making sure I was not leaning forward when nervous, try making a conscience effort to sit deep, and even lean back a little when he starts getting nervous, that helped with Hank quite a bit.
Hope you have many good rides
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Member:
lilo
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Posted on Sunday, Apr 18, 2010 - 10:13 am:
Yes, Diane, Jose is my prancer. The most difficult part is the last 1/4 mile home, because my mare can see him and starts calling. On the last ride he reacted to horses calling in the neighborhood (my friend's other horse also calls for his stall mate when we get close - you would think Jose could tell the difference, wouldn't you?).
However - I can deal with a slow trot as long as there is no spinning.
We have only been away from home 3 times so far this spring - I do try to work him in the pasture whenever it is possible, and that has been going fairly well.
Wet saddle blankets do help - I wish I could ride more regularly.
Lilo
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Sunday, Apr 18, 2010 - 10:41 am:
Lilo, something that has helped me to relax and thus to relax the horse is "soft eyes." When you are sitting on the horse our tendency, on a nervous horse especially, is, as Diane says, is to sit alert, up on our pelvic bones, and looking straight ahead (watching for the next thing that will spook the horse.) With "soft eyes" you try and use your peripheral vision. When you do this, you open your eyes and see to the side of you as well as to the front. This relaxes your whole body. If you concentrate on doing this it is impossible to sit stiffly and your whole horse relaxes. You can't really make your seat deep when you are stiff. Another "trick" is to imagine your body is full of air and forcefully squeeze out all the air from your toes up, like you were a tube of toothpaste, then inhale pretending your air enters your body through your back. If you do this and at the same time try and lengthen you legs from the hip to the knee, as if your legs were cut off at the knees and you want to make your legs longer, you will have a perfect deep seat, be relaxed, and your horse will also be much more relaxed. And, if then your horses gets "jiggy" or jumps unexpectedly, you will be in a much better position to handle it. Sitting like this, then rolling your weight back when you want the horse to slow down and "ease up" will help you a lot.
I studied some dressage with a woman who had studied riding with Sally Swift, I then went out and bought Swift's books. Even though I have ridden my entire life, her methods helped me immensely.
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Sunday, Apr 18, 2010 - 11:01 am:
Lilo, have you tired making him keep spinning when he spins on you? I once had a horse that would spin when he "spooked" and I kept him spinning; if he wanted to spin, fine, but we'd stop when I wanted to, not when he wanted to. This cured him. Also, you can try making him walk in small circles everytime he starts jigging. Stop circling when he starts walking forward. And, when you get home, don't unsaddle but make him work longer at home, either with you on him or on the lunge line.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Apr 18, 2010 - 11:38 am:
Sara, Hank would spin all day long and once set straight he would go right back into prance mode, circles didn't work either.
I have as you suggested made getting home not so much fun. He NEVER gets a treat, or gets to graze, or anything, I don't even speak to him. Make him do a couple turns on the haunches, back up ect,Take the saddle off and put him away wet in the paddock by himself. About half an hour later I go out and brush him and let him back to his normal routine. I used to let him graze in the yard, fuss over him, give him a treat, he caught on to home means good things are going to happen quickly He now walks past our driveway quietly, even willingly, because he knows if he prances or goes faster than a walk down to the arena we go and he can prance down there for an hour...I MADE him. I worked his butt. This has made a HUGE difference in our ride home. He also is NOT allowed to graze when the saddle is on his back.. turned him into a head diving idiot.
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Sunday, Apr 18, 2010 - 1:06 pm:
Willow, at 21 years of age, can still do all kinds of (Arab) moves once headed towards home. So my last couple of rides I tried something new: I would keep one rein with contact hand aimed at my hip, and would take the other rein up with increasing tension as needed. Releases the minute she walked and/or straightened. This worked really well as we approached our woods trail, got past that, then made a few passes past the driveway. Of course I also sat "deep" and relaxed through out. Spinning her, backing her, just tees her off more and makes the ride less enjoyable.
She's always been very easy to over flex so I also needed to keep a leg on her on the driveway side.
I guess that upward motion with the bit has some kind of different feel? Have a snaffle or sometimes 3 part Myler bit in her mouth.
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Member:
lilo
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Posted on Monday, Apr 19, 2010 - 12:39 pm:
Hi all,
I was writing a response, when my computer went ballistic ......
Anyway, thanks for all the tips. Have tried many of them already, last year. So far, deep breathing works the best, although not yet perfectly. When riding in the pasture, I can stop Jose from the walk without ever touching the reins.
All the responses point out to me that different horses need different tactics. Sometimes, what works like a charm on one horse, has the opposite effect on another. But most of us know that already.
Thanks for reminding me of Sally Swift, Sara. I have her book and re-read it periodically. I don't know whether soft eyes would have helped me yesterday. Rode Moonlight next to some dense bushes along the road, when a deer jumped up right in front of us. Guess we disturbed it's rest! Got the whole herd of deer running. Moonlight spooked sideways, but stopped right away when she understood what was happening. I can live with that.
I just read that it helps to have a bell on the horse when riding on trails, so the wildlife hears you coming and has a chance to get out of the way. That seems like a good idea - need to look into that.
Lilo
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