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Discussion on Correct position for bucking?
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Member:
heidim
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Posted on Friday, May 21, 2010 - 10:29 am:
Hi. My 6-year-old mare bucked on my twice yesterday when I asked her to canter. My question is not how to get her to stop...I've already gotten some great ideas by reading other posts (getting her groundwork down, longeing in advance, making her work hard, etc). My question is from the rider's point of view: how do I position myself in the saddle so that I'm stable enough to follow through on any correction without getting unseated? I leaned back a bit yesterday, and that seemed to help. I do believe I can fix this mare's issues if I know how to ride her out, especially on the trail.
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Member:
stek
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Posted on Friday, May 21, 2010 - 10:50 am:
What an interesting question Heidi. You might start by watching some pro rodeo'ers! I guess the short answer is that if your seat is balanced and centered in the mare's 'fulcrum' then you should be able to ride out most basic bucks without too much trouble. I think your instinct to lean back is good, kind of like going down hill. Getting her head up will help keep the bucks in check too.
How big does she buck, and it it only at the canter depart? Have you gone over all your tack to be sure it's not a physical issue?
I personally worry more about rears than bucks, to me they are more dangerous. But then I've had horses go over backward on me and have never ridden a really big bucker.
Good luck with your mare!
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Member:
terrido
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Posted on Friday, May 21, 2010 - 11:30 am:
Heidi, IN short yes lean back. If you are in a western saddle grab the horn and that will help too. Though better than a horn, you can put straps around the swell of the saddle to grab. (See Scott Hansen's, or is it Hanson?, site, he calls them night latches and he sells them.) Anyway with straps you can grab them to hang on and still lean way back; when you grab the horn you tend to pull yourself forward toward it. But also yes if you are balanced and centered you should be able to stay with the horse well, easily, enough. Course that also depends on the size and type of bucks. For an english style get yourself a grab strap! Some tack shops calls them "carry handles".
Better overall to figure out WHY she is bucking in the first place. There are two main reasons, first is fear of falling and second is pain from tack.
Yup fear of falling over, being unbalanced, which for a 6 yr old may well be the case if you have just started canter fairly recently under saddle. When the horse is not well balanced to begin with and then we add our weight to it, they can truly become frightened of falling over when going to canter. In this case the simple answer is just to wait. They need to have strength to be able to canter well with a rider, keep that in mind. Continue to work canter and transitions to and from on the ground, at liberty and on longe. Make sure she is standing upright as she canters and not leaning way into the circles; make sure that she is cantering on the correct lead both front and rear and not 'cross-cantering'; make sure when she first goes to canter that all four feet move in the 3 beat gait right away and that she doesn't use both rears together initially.
When she is standing up over all four of her feet nicely on a 20m circle in canter (no leaning way in), and she always canters in the correct 3 beat movement and always takes the correct lead without a rider, then you can try to get canter under saddle. BUT wen you begin just keep trotting her until she asks to go to canter then just ride it quietly for a while. Don't ask for canter and don't ask her to do anything while cantering except slow to trot. Do this for a while and then once cantering slowly ask her to maybe go a bit more in canter, or maybe collect up a smidge, etc. to test the waters. When she will easily move out more extended in canter and collect in a bit then she may be ready for you to ask for canter transitions. Then be sure you do it gently and once she goes to canter don't block her, just ride it. OK that takes care of the horse being balanced and ready to canter.
The next piece is the tack. It HAS To fit correctly. A saddle that is too long or slides back from shoulder pushing it backward as the horse departs into canter will cause the horse to buck because you will be sitting on the area that says 'buck' (behind the last rib). If the saddle is pinching at the front that too will cause the horse to buck.
And last is the rider, if you ask for canter and hold the 'ask' too long, or if you instantly pull back on the rein(s) when they pop into canter, all of this just causes confusion and they buck. After all you are saying GO!-STOP! at the same time pushing backend forward and pulling forehand back, all they can do then is go up.
So before you try to just ride it out, better to sort out the WHY. If you eliminate the WHY it's possible she hasn't yet learned "canter ask means begin and then buck" and the bucks will go away.
Good luck, wear a helmet and stay safe!
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Friday, May 21, 2010 - 4:38 pm:
I have straps around my saddle, simply dog collars from the dollar store. I have 2 on each saddle, one on each side of the horn. I read somewhere that your hand can slip off the horn, but it's pretty hard to loose your grip on the strap.
If you use some kind of leather, it's stiffer and a bit easier to grab than nylon, but I have both, and just try to be ready if I think a buck may happen.
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Member:
stek
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Posted on Friday, May 21, 2010 - 8:43 pm:
Ah yes the bucking strap - I use a leather curb strap on my saddles. Another use is it gives you a way to set your hand if you are working on contact and don't have the steadiest hands. Just find your rein length and hook your thumb through it.
Angie you're right, you can hold tighter to things you can close your hand around which you can't the horn.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, May 22, 2010 - 9:17 am:
All the advice above is good,
One thing I learned when mentoring under the boarding barn trainer was to never stop when a horse was bucking, in a way it is a reward for a buck, if possible you should move them forward through it.
I have found most bucks when transitioning from trot to canter is caused by imbalance as Terrie stated. (unless they are feeling kind of friskie LOL) You can normally tell the difference.
Hank threw me a couple bucks a few weeks ago when going into the canter, he was friskie that day so I rode through it and kept him forward, 2 pretty good bucks later ( My butt did come out of the saddle!) and he did a very nice canter(one of his best) for a good mile. Sometimes it is just working the kink out, sometimes there is a physical reason, figuring that out is the task.
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Member:
mysi
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Posted on Saturday, May 22, 2010 - 10:27 am:
I agree with Diane, riding forward is the key. My youngster (5yr old) just learned to canter under saddle a few months ago. The lady I got him from said when they tried teaching him he bucked and wouldn't canter. He did that with me too but I rode through it every time and now he doesn't do it. He was unbalanced for a while and that was 1/2 the problem, but he must have learned along they way that they would stop if he bucked because he stopped bucking with me long before he learned balance. And of course you must be very secure and balanced in your own seat to stay on! 
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Member:
heidim
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Posted on Saturday, May 22, 2010 - 11:59 am:
This is all great insight. I should also add that Belle came to me a spoiled horse. Her owners were brand new to horses and purchased her as a yearling! When I first got her, she took great pleasure in trying to pin me against the hitching post during grooming. When I held up a log sideways for her to bump into, she reeled and let out a mighty kick. I reprimanded her firmly and returned to serious ground work ("never get on a horse's back until you have it's respect on the ground"). She's mellowed out a lot over the last year, and we've enjoyed some wonderful trail rides. I will double check the fit on Belle's saddle today before riding, and will continue to prepare for misbehavior and ride out any bucking. I should mention that the first time Belle bucked on me was when I made her wait for another horse to climb a hill before we proceeded. She resented the wait and gave one buck at the top of the hill when it was her turn to do. I believe she bucked the other day because I was riding her in a field in sight of her stable mates. I expect our relationship to take time time, but I really love and like this horse and feel she is a good match for me with some "survival" riding tips. The extra straps on the saddle make a lot of sense. It's great ideas like that that keep me tuned into and learning from HA.
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Member:
frances
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Posted on Saturday, May 22, 2010 - 1:05 pm:
Here's another vote for keeping the horse's head up and driving forward ("they can't buck and cover ground at the same time", I'm always told).
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Member:
sodmonst
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Posted on Saturday, May 22, 2010 - 3:05 pm:
Heidi, there's so much good advice here, I don't have much to add. It does seem that pulling the horse's head up with both reins doesn't work too well; once the head is down, the horse can just bull into the pull. Pulling one rein can be more effective, but don't get too radical or you could unbalance an already chaotic conundrum.
Terrie, thank you for your post. I plan to read it over a few times. You share a lot of valuable information and some is new for me.
Heidi, while riding the horse forward, it helps to think about where you are going, and not about the ground. Thinking about or looking at the ground greatly increases your chance of ending up there.
Looking back, although I've been bucked off now and then, there was only one time I can think of that I didn't contribute to it with my foolishness. The worst idea I had was to "practice" by allowing and even cultivating one horse's willingness to buck. Duh. The horse got good at bucking faster than I got good at riding and I ended up having to pay a horse trainer/PRCA saddle bronc rider to help him out of the mess I caused. The other times I was doing "smart" things like turning around in the saddle talking, jumping on with no saddle or bridle, not bothering to make sure the saddle really fit well, OK I'm too embarrassed to continue. 
Heidi, I trust that you will be able to help your horse to overcome this, to relax, and that you'll have lots of fun adventures together.
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Member:
heidim
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Posted on Saturday, May 22, 2010 - 6:09 pm:
Okay, I will do my best to keep her head up. In the event I can't and Belle goes into bucking mode again, how exactly do I drive her forward? Squeeze her sides while I'm leaning back? I ask only because I don't want her to get the idea she's supposed to buck harder or faster.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, May 22, 2010 - 6:51 pm:
How does she go into her buck Heidi? Does she suddenly plant herself and buck or buck as she is going? I can feel a buck coming myself usually and kick them forward before the "rodeo" begins Prevention is key in bucking and rearing. Most horses will tell you they are going to do it before it happens... that is where the firm cue for forward should start, before the fact or at the least soon as the first buck starts.
Driving them forward SHOULD bring the head up. Head up and the buck can't get too bad when the head is up.
Good luck.
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Member:
heidim
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Posted on Saturday, May 22, 2010 - 7:03 pm:
Okay, I didn't realize Belle was bucking until I noticed her lope seemed awful rolling. I don't think I'd have that much trouble getting her head up because she's not "broncing" hard (i.e., planting her feet, etc.). It's almost as if she's bucking with each stride. Like bucking and loping at the same time, but that's supposed to be impossible, right? That's what confuses me about her moving forward--it seems like she's already doing that.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, May 22, 2010 - 7:55 pm:
HMMM that is interesting, when Hank was a young lad I was scared to canter him because it always felt like he was bucking. He actually was on the wrong lead behind, tho he could make it feel like a bucking canter, the trainer always laughed and said we did a great counter canter(even tho we weren't trying!). He also said Hank could make it seem like it was right, but when he swapped back it felt like he was bucking me again. Was the strangest thing! I had friends watch and ask what he was doing, they called it bucking LOL.
He and I were very unbalanced, we started cantering on a straight line only a few canter steps then back to trot. We couldn't do circles or hills for a good year without him "bucking".
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Member:
heidim
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Posted on Saturday, May 22, 2010 - 8:22 pm:
Maybe that's what's going on. I only loped her in a straight line, as I wanted to give her a chance to feel me on her back at that gait before getting any more complicated. On the hill, it was definitely a buck. In the pasture now, I'm not quite so sure. I'll try it again and see what happens. Thanks for throwing out another possibility, Diane.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, May 22, 2010 - 8:52 pm:
Heidi I won't say the hills are not a buck, but I would have sworn that hank was bucking, no one could convince me he wasn't. it felt and LOOKED like big bucks, now if we think about this a horse really can't buck well going uphill.
My friend was with me one day and I asked her to watch closely to see what he was doing. Hills scared the crap out of me on that horse. He felt racey, bucky, and out of control...I dreaded seeing one!!!
Turned out after my friend watched us go up a steep long hill she saw the problem. We "BUCKED" all the way up it...it literally threw me out of the saddle.
After watching me she said I was holding Hank too tight (out of downright fear of bucking) he didn't have his head, and couldn't reach well to get under himself to push up the hill, so he compensated and basically bounced up the hill....felt like a very big buck...not kidding.
When my friend told me this I did not believe her, it just didn't make sense UNTIL one day I gave him his head ( a little)there was trust issues at this point! He went up the hill so much better, still felt like bucking a little, but I was still holding him too. Once we learned to work through the trust issue..IOW as Terrie said telling them to go and stop at the same time this hill issue disappeared. I am not a novice rider, I do KNOW better, but sometimes our nerves make us do things we shouldn't.
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Member:
stek
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Posted on Saturday, May 22, 2010 - 11:38 pm:
I have to say I have seen many horses cantering and bucking at the same time (one of mine does it when perturbed), twitching the bum up with each stride. Those kind aren't big bucks and are usually easy to ride through, sounds like what you are describing. Not head down broncing, just twitchy butt synDrOme =) Assuming it's not an equipment issue, riding it out is the best bet, especially on a horse who has been spoiled.
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Member:
heidim
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Posted on Sunday, May 23, 2010 - 2:09 pm:
Interesting feedback so far. I'm thinking I need to ride out the bucking (or whatever it is) on the straight-aways to get her to progress in her training...better to not make a big deal out of it and let her figure things out for herself. I'm assuming in the long term bucking is more work than loping anyway. When Belle bucked at the top of the hill, I did turn her in a hard circle because, again, we were at the top. This annoyed a rider behind me, but Belle did DrOp her head and settle into being a good girl again. No more problems the rest of the ride. Usually I give my horses a loose rein when climbing hills to allow for better balance. However, she was keyed up that day about the horse in front of her, so I may well have been holding her in more than usual. Good food for thought. Quite a quandary, though, isn't it? Give your horse its head for climbing, all the while risking that they make take advantage of the freedom to get that head down for a buck. Training is definitely a feel-as-you-go process. On another note, it's refreshing to read that others who have been riding a long time still have fears. I would love it if Belle would just forget the whole bucking thing, so I don't have to risk being dumped. Geez...to think I thought this stuff was fun when I was 16! My outlook is very different at 48...
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Sunday, May 23, 2010 - 4:51 pm:
I generally agree with what has already been posted as it is very good but would make a few extra observations.
Some horses are athletic enough to buck very severely even if their head is up. They can bend their front legs under them and throw their rear ones up above a rider's head, putting on quite a show.
Not all bucks are created for the same reasons.
A saddle that pinches when going into a canter is one kind of a buck.
That kind of buck is similar to the one caused by rider tension and failure to "go with the horse," causing discomfort. In other words, poor rider transition.
Little crow hops can be corrected by a verbal reprimand and touch of the crop or driving forward.
But a temper tantrum buck because a horse wants to hurry up and go faster or catch up with others further ahead probably ought not to be rewarded through driving the horse forward as this is apt to make the horse even more excited and teach unwanted behavior. In such a case of bucking I turn the horse sharply to the side thereby disengaging the hindquarter, and make him come to a complete halt. Then when we begin again I let the horse know he must go the speed that I select or forward motion will not be allowed.
As for going up hills, this is where it really is hard work for a horse to buck. Cantering up hills is great for building muscles, rider confidence, and smoothing out the gait in an inexperienced horse. Be sure to relax into your saddle and don't hinder the horse going up the hill. He really doesn't want to buck on the way up as that is extremely hard work.
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Member:
leslie1
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Posted on Monday, May 24, 2010 - 2:50 pm:
Easy peasy :P
just do what this guy does!!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYT7UIBVMxI
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Member:
terrido
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Posted on Monday, May 24, 2010 - 7:35 pm:
Heidi, you asked how to keep her head up to help prevent the bucking? If you are asking for canter you can raise your hands up to hold her head up. It's NOT comfy for them to go around in a lope this way, but you can have them eventually ask to lower their head position a bit.
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Member:
sodmonst
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Posted on Monday, May 24, 2010 - 11:28 pm:
I've not had much trouble with horses bucking while going up hill. I've taken a particularly "froggy" horse to the base of a long, long hill because as long as I kept him going up I could stay with him him. By the time he got to the top he didn't want to buck any more. That's not a good strategy on a small hill, however. Having a horse bail off a hill, bucking on the way down is a dangerous predicament.
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Member:
terrido
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Posted on Tuesday, May 25, 2010 - 12:27 am:
Only problem with this strategy is that you have to have a hill... some of us don't have those.
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Member:
heidim
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Posted on Tuesday, May 25, 2010 - 8:30 am:
Belle has done many hills...it was the horse too far ahead of her (in her opinion) that set her to give a buck at the top. Thankfully, she doesn't buck going downhill. I had a mule that did that once and, I agree Susie, it is not a good deal. And that mule did it every time. Terrie, that's not a bad idea to keep her head up to canter, if nothing else to lessen the chance that she can get in a good hard buck.
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Member:
lhenning
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Posted on Tuesday, May 25, 2010 - 1:54 pm:
I think just as important as how you ride through a buck, is how you ride into the canter. Check out this video from Julie Goodnight on canter departs. This horse was throwing its head and became very unbalanced when it's rider asked for canter which heats up the tension in the horse. Keeping the horse calm all the way through the transition builds confidence.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmCTUPUDhlk
Good luck. Interesting subject but I give you oodles of praise for having the courage to ride through it. It's amazing to me how all these "issues" with horses can be dealt with and then they are no longer issues.
Linda
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Member:
cometrdr
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Posted on Tuesday, May 25, 2010 - 8:00 pm:
ok time to chime in on this link. My Big guy Comet always bucked at the beginning of the canter - no not a rodeo buck - just a wee see saw thing. but I have this big heavy western saddle with no back cinch on it. My theory and I am sticking to it, is that saddle slaps him in the soft spot (some one mentioned it above) when the canter first starts out. I've been riding him for 5 years now and only now just getting comfortable to canter a lot. (speed scares me if its too fast)
- So what did I do? I put the english on him or the Cashel soft saddle - neither slap his back when he transitions from one ot the other. He still tried the wee buck thing the first couple of time - I rode it out and now he's just more smooth. good transitions. I think Heidi time will cure this and consistancy on your part. Who said it John Lyons? make the bad hard to do that he good easy - and you will get more good than bad. If she starts bucking keep her moving out. if she doesn buck - ride a few strides then bring it down and reward her with a pat and a walk.
so many things to look in to so many options, so many different horses that require different techniques!!! you'll get it.
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