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Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Monday, Jun 21, 2010 - 2:53 pm:

As many of you may recall, I have a very sensitive goofy gelding by the name of Tango. His biggest issue next to just plain being ticklish is movement & sound above him.

I've finally reached the point of where I can get in a stirrup from each side, hang around, bounce around, and step down. I am waiting for hubby to have time to be my safety guy before I mount all the way, a leg on each side of Tango.

This morning 3 of the 4 horses were laying down, and everyone got up but him. He let me walk up to him, rub him all over from both sides, and I think the only reason he got up was because he wanted his favorite itchy spot rubbed under his belly! Smarty pants.

'Nways, I sure think this is a sign that he is really trusting me more than ever before.

Comments??
Member:
lhenning

Posted on Monday, Jun 21, 2010 - 3:41 pm:

Hi Angie,

Wow you have made progress with Tango! It sure sounds like he is bonding with you. I think as long as you can keep your cool and stay calm all the way through mounting, that he would think it's no big thing. The biggest moments become "uneventful" with good groundwork and preparation.

Maybe your hubby can snap some pictures of you on Tango. Then you could post them at the end of a former thread where you talk about your challenges with him. It might give others some hope.

Good luck!

Linda
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Monday, Jun 21, 2010 - 6:20 pm:

Linda,

I cannot wait to post a success story regarding the journey Tango & I have had...phew! We are sooo close! And yup, pictures will be worth 1000 words.

I know he trusts me; in fact he's more afraid of the saddle than me. In fact, I think he's afraid of NOISE from the saddle, more than the saddle. I still am concerned he will bolt & I'll be in a world of hurt. Getting older, no broken bones YET, and I want to keep it that way.

I cannot at this point think of anything that is a big deal to Tango unless a new noise from the saddle would cause him to jump, then me jump. Old habits die hard, the "he jumps I jump thing."

I will probably end up on him alone, hubby is either working, working on the house, or busy with basketball. He just shook his head when I came in all excited this morning and said "GUESS what Tango did?" To a non horsey person the concept of a horse NOT getting up must seem like a weird thing to get excited about, lol!~

BTW, WHICH former thread are you referring to?? I think Tango has as many threads as Hank almost!
Member:
zarr

Posted on Monday, Jun 21, 2010 - 9:01 pm:

Angie wish you could see I just started grinning as I read!! Been there done that, As you know Zarr is much a Tango horse.His world has always been full of dragons!! Wither someone is on board or not! It took yrs but he trusts me so much now that I'm actually more worried more now than before I don't want to let him down.Does he still flash the whites of his eyes yes but he is still standing there not half way to Idaho.Does he bolt no but he does a mean side pass but... but he is still there at the end and so very proud of himself.The deep sighs and closed eyes of relief tell me how far he has come! Tango has too! :-)
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Monday, Jun 21, 2010 - 9:17 pm:

Very happy to hear of your growing success with Tango, Angie.

Good for you! It sounds like you are doing a great job with him.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Monday, Jun 21, 2010 - 9:46 pm:

Angie trust issues are one of the hardest things to overcome, they seem to have a snowball effect. They don't trust you and in return you don't trust them. I have met a few horses like Tango through the years and they are hard cookies to figure out sometimes. The issues I had with Hank are kind of similar to Tango, except on the ground we could do anything...riding problems were where our trust issues lied.

Sounds you are making great progress with Tango, always watch your own demeanor around him, once we have trust issues with a horse our body language changes quite a bit because we expect the behavior, treat him just like one of your other horses.

One horse I worked with down at the barn was so scared of people and things no one could get a halter on her even in the stall. It took me a week, but I taught that mare she could trust me, by just not forcing the issue and treating her like a regular horse, it was so funny how everyone tipped toed around her and chased her around the stall...yea that'll work LOL. she would always turn her butt to anyone and threaten to kick. All I did was take a lead rope, crack her lightly on the butt and make her turn towards me, then just stand in the corner non threatening, pretty soon she was coming up to me and letting me rub her, everytime I went by her stall I would go in and put her halter on and take it of 10 times then move on. The owner that had brought her in said we would never get a halter on her... she turned out to be a good horse, repetition and treating things like it is no big deal is key with these types. Tho easier said then done!!!

Look forward to riding pictures
Member:
lhenning

Posted on Tuesday, Jun 22, 2010 - 10:10 am:

Hi Angie,

Yes, I was vague when I mentioned putting pictures at the end of a thread. I've read many of yours!

My guys is also a big chicken. Just last night he bolted across the arena when he heard two draft horses snort at the same time. I have come to realize that spooks happen, even with the most calm and stable horses. The real key is being confident you can handle yourself and Tango when he spooks. It has taken me a long time to get where I can react to Cutter and give him the calming signals he needs rather than react to myself and my fears. The horse is in his reactive mind, so one of us needs to be in our thinking mind.

I think Diane has the right idea. Treat Tango the same as all other horses and don't be quieter or tip-toe around. When you climb on him, you should be able to wave your arms and move around freely. Even when you step into the stirrups it should be exactly the same way you would on any other horse.

If you think the saddle makes him scared, then keep working on desensitizing him to the saddle. Flip the flaps and waggle the stirrups and don't stop until he stands still and relaxes. If you hold a lead rope in one hand while you do this, then he is free to run around you, and he probably needs to feel that sense of freedom. With some horses it takes a long time but once you get him past that issue, perhaps it won't be an issue ever again.
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Tuesday, Jun 22, 2010 - 10:28 am:

Cindy,

Well now, I am grinning too! Just putting this little story on here did a lot for my confidence, I knew fellow horse lovers would understand, and have great stories to share!

Only a horse lover and true horsewoman, horseman, can understand. I hope I am close to be a true horsewoman now!

"he is still there at the end and so very proud of himself. The deep sighs and closed eyes of relief tell me how far he has come!"

I know I've seen that look in Tango's eyes more and more lately, like "Hey mom,...no.."hey partner, I GET IT I GET IT!! I don't have to be afraid, you are keeping me safe, and I am going to keep you safe now...really really really I am trying so hard!"

O.k., maybe he's not so wordy, lol!

Thanks Vicki!

And Diane, one of the things that has made a difference is not doing the "normal" over and over, even if it's what the "experts" would do. Or what others would do.

I've been giving lots of thought to what I have been doing, and the lessons Tango taught me. I will put it all out here, next chapter!

I am not crowing and doing cartwheels YET, but darn close!

Remember when I was PRAYING for RAIN?!?! Seems it rains every other day, and it never fails; I get a horse saddled in the evening, and like clock work, it starts raining! I guess I can think of it as giving Tango time to soak up his new found confidence ;-).
Member:
zarr

Posted on Tuesday, Jun 22, 2010 - 12:06 pm:

Angie :-) the phrase " you are such a brave horse!" passes my lips often and I swear Zarr gets the concept of Brave! When drama starts to build the litany You are a brave horse works wonders now! 100% No but very close to 90 !
Member:
sodmonst

Posted on Wednesday, Jun 23, 2010 - 2:06 am:

Angie, weren't you tempted to just lie down on the ground too and keep him company? It sounds like he would have been OK with that. What a milestone moment. You must feel so good about his demonstration of trust.

I discovered that HB just loves it when I sit down on the ground or on a step stool and keep him company. Sometimes he fixes my hair with his nose and gives the "stink eye" to the other equines if they even think about butting in. Mostly though he just stands with his head down close to me and relaxes. When I got him he was a nervous wreck from years of inept and unkind treatment. He's sensitive, energetic, and not a horse that can be treated that way. He was so skittish and hand shy that I got him "free to a good home." Sitting around with him out in the pasture seemed to help us both. We are buddies now, yet he is very respectful and business like. I am the general and he's a colonel.
Member:
npo33901

Posted on Wednesday, Jun 23, 2010 - 4:20 am:

My humble input. Linda Tellington Jones.
Stand on some bales and wave you hands above him and lean on him e.t.c. Lead him under some "bridge" of plastic . Lunge him with flapping stirrups, even plastic bag on the saddle . Or some big toy bear strap on the saddle .
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Wednesday, Jun 23, 2010 - 11:19 am:

Susie,

I would have loved to sit on Tango at that moment; my legs on the opposite of his, rubbing him all over with my hands, except I was in my nightgown yet!!I've changed to the summer grazing pattern; they are out for the night, and I move them back to the dirt & stall access for the day. I slept later than I wanted to and just started coffee, headed out to move them.

Probably safer that I wasn't dressed in normal riding attire or I may have gotten hurt, huh? It was soo tempting to just get on him, let him get up with me astride, YEEE HAAW!

Anna,

I appreciate your humble input. Believe me when I say Tango has had all that done, over & over & over! He's just not your average horse who you desensitize, and then move on I guess. I think he's just wired a bit differently, one of those "special ones" like some of the above mentioned ones.

Got over 2" of rain again, so the "Success" pictures probably will be awhile yet. I don't need him slipping in the mud during our first rides. Soooo close now...
Member:
lilo

Posted on Wednesday, Jun 23, 2010 - 2:18 pm:

Angie - I love it when my horses stay lying down and don't get up when I get close. It really is a sign of trust. The Parelli folks teach their horses to lie down, then get on them and let them get up. But, that is not for me.

Maybe it was good that you were in your nightgown ....

Lilo
Member:
sodmonst

Posted on Thursday, Jun 24, 2010 - 1:30 am:

Yahoooo, Angie! You know if you sat by his back and massaged his back around his withers, you would be essentially weighting his back while you are approximately where you would be if you were sitting on him. Do you think that he'd enjoy that?
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Thursday, Jun 24, 2010 - 9:04 am:

Susie,

I need to clarify something here I see. I have been on Tango's back IN HIS STALL both with saddle on and bareback. Might sound stupid and dangerous, but where can he go? I got the idea from one of the great old time horse trainers. The guy had a horse that was crazy with bolting, so they made a small pen out of panels. At first he got on the horse, and just sat there. Then moved the panels out a few feet, all 4 sides, and now the horse could move forward, and back, and I imagine turn around. As the horse relaxed and started thinking (thinking is a key part of this!) the pen got bigger and bigger. And the rider kept building on skills. Before too long the horse forgot about bolting, and felt secure and then regular training progressed.

That is working for us. I have been on him an average of once a YEAR in the round pen...so I think that's 4 times now...and every time it's been a very scary ride. I mean back bunches up, and he explodes!

I have been trying to teach him it's o.k. to react, but he has to react in place so to speak, no bolting. The minute he jumps, he scares himself worse, and it's off to the races. And we all know how well that works out!

We do back, and go forward, turn on the forehand, lowering the head, all in a 12 x 14 stall. I DO flop around, scratch on the saddle, flip the saddle strings, you name it. Oh and crack my gum..that one still gets him a bit. The only time his head comes up yet is when I take hay off the top of the wall between the 2 stalls; so I make sure and give him a few strands to assure him the noise means something good is coming next.
I also drag my nails across the wood walls, and higher up, the tin walls. (screeeeecccchhh)

The stall is a safe place in his mind, the round pen is starting to be which he is telling me by allowing me to stand in each stirrup now.

I can also do things above him in the arena, bareback..but he's a little bit...really tiny bit...nervous with doing the same there with the saddle on. It may be ME being a tiny bit nervous; bigger area.

Baby BABY steps with Mr. OverReactive!!

And yes, massage has been a big part of helping him relax.
Member:
sodmonst

Posted on Thursday, Jun 24, 2010 - 10:36 am:

Wow, that is a lot of dedication to your relationship with Tango. I can empathize. I appreciate the way you put it, "he jumps, he scares himself worse, and it's off to the races." Does he bolt, or bolt and buck? Does he look where he's going, or is he running in a blind panic?

I think there's a difference between our two horses. My horse was crazy with acquired fear but brave by nature. Your horse sounds like he's always been afraid. Have you had him his whole life?

I remember stepping on HB in the round pen and just wishing that he would slow down enough for me to get off! I remember saying, I can't take this horse," and thinking, "I can't ride him; I am in over my head." He'd stand nicely to be mounted, but he'd go off like a bomb as soon as I swung a leg over. Is that your dilemma?

A month ago I went riding with the new neighbors. They told me they knew a lady with a Paso Fino that looked like mine, "but he was crazy." They told me the lady's name and where they met her, and were thunderstruck when I said "this is that horse." In the end, I think that there was never any "breakthrough" for us. I just spent a lot of time with him and was grateful for minuscule gains. It added up and today I wish I had taken videos. The only comparison that I can make is Hackney Horse William on YouTube.

Man o man, Tango is sooooo lucky that he belongs to you! Whether you ever ride him or not, it sounds like a fascinating journey with lots of milestones and accomplishments for both of you.
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Thursday, Jun 24, 2010 - 12:19 pm:

Ah, I feel so much better after reading your last post, lol! My dedication, and the fascinating journey; heck, I thought I was just plain nuts! I mean I have 2 horses that are very nice to ride, so what is the fascination with this goofy guy? I guess it's his puppy dog personality, and how can I give up on a huge animal who always comes up to me no what has just happened, and puts his big ol' head down to my level, and just stands there? I have always felt he's begging to be understood, and it's my responsibility to figure out how to get him to understand how to not be afraid. He's just number one pet, can't explain it rationally, he should have been gone years ago. (he's 8 now)

I got him as a yearling, and he always was jumpy. The kind if you sneeze in the barn aisle, he jumps across his stall. I am pretty sure I made mistakes and gave him "acquired" fear because he is by nature very curious. Something new in his world, he's sneaking up to it. He's not the first one to approach something new, but he is the first to notice it. Hubby has a deer target in the aspargus bed...I mean it's a DEER..not a bullseye (don't ask me why)and Tango was waaay over by the barn, but he watched that darn deer forever, lol! Anytime he's in the yard on a lead rope, he's watching that deer. He's been up to it several times, and sniffed it, but he still knows it's there.

Think I mentioned it before in another Tango discussion that I was just starting to watch all the clinicians on RFDTV when I was starting Tango. And Mr. "Wave, wiggle, whap" (Clinton Anderson) was very popular then. I will always wonder had I done what I was familiar with doing, lunging, ground driving, basic "sacking out" if I would have a different horse now. Maybe, maybe not. I just think he's so sensitive that that method made him worse, not better. I'll never know, we are where we are now, and can only go forward.

And yes, he bolts, then bucks, and runs faster. Once he starts going he thinks the saddle is a mountain lion and he quits thinking. Don't know how many times I've flapped the stirrups, or put a line on the back cinch (to apply pressure) and his halter to get the bucks outa him..you name it, probably tried it to get him past his acting up.

We have had walks around the round pen and I think good, we're doing fine finally. Then it's like he remembers I am up there, tenses up, and there we go! So I have made a vow that he must know as much about responding to RELAXATION CUES as possible because I don't want an accident. Besides my getting hurt, it would also set his brain back to day one I afraid.

Sounds like HB is lucky to have YOU!!!

Here's a recent pic of Tango. Don't know if you can appreciate that very THICK neck. Very hard to pull around if he gets going, so lots of hours on softness!
Member:
stek

Posted on Thursday, Jun 24, 2010 - 2:35 pm:

Awww Angie what a nice picture.

I can completely relate as I own a scaredy cat too. Have owned him for almost 7 years now and he STILL spooks at the saddle every single time I tack him up. (he is 16!!) I have tried every de-spooking sacking out method under the sun, and this guy is just plain afraid of things coming up over his back. I tried attaching things to the saddle like I would with a 'normal' horse to sack him out, and he spooked and ran so fast and furious with no end in sight till I finally had to haul him to a stop for fear he was going to run himself to death.

The good thing though is he knows that even though the saddle is scary, it's OK for me to be up there. I rode him a lot bareback when I first got him (easier to bale off if things get wild) and I think that helped. Have you tried getting on Tango bareback? Lay over his back, scratch scratch, then immediately get off. Do that 10 times, then get on, sit up, scratch scratch, get off. I would definitely do it with someone on the ground if you can get your hubby to give you 10 minutes.

Then try two steps forward and get off. Then 4 steps forward. etc etc. With the spooky ones like you say once they take off it's the start of a downward spiral so if you can keep him still and introduce forward movement very gradually it will help.

Are you getting on him bareback in the stall? I worked at a TB farm back east and we backed all the horses in their stalls first, then did hand walking in an enclosed space with someone on their back. I thought it was crazy dangerous at first but it worked OK.
Member:
lhenning

Posted on Thursday, Jun 24, 2010 - 4:05 pm:

Angie, he is cute! I love his soft eyes. I would fall for that face in a heartbeat, so your dilemma is completely understandable.

If he has that much curiosity, then it sounds like he is pretty smart too. Where is he in your herd's pecking order? I guess I am wondering if he lacks self-confidence and if so, could you help him build it up?

I know when my horse bolts, I have thought about using the one-rein stop as described by Clinton Anderson and others. I just don't think its the right thing for my horse at the time. In fact in that moment I feel it might make him buck me off because he is already afraid and fleeing the monsters and I would be getting in the way of that. What he needs is calmness, not surprises. A soft seat, low voice, and a gentle turn into a circle seems to work much better. Then I ruffle his mane and tell him he is a big silly boy, and he DrOps his head and gets goofy eyes. The hardest part for me has always been staying relaxed all through the spook/ bolt. I think he has done it so often I finally got used to it and it doesn't scare me as much as it once did. However, I still don't take him on trails (yet).

I think we all have to figure out our own horses, based on our experience with them, and find a method that works for that particular horse and rider combination. It sounds like you are finding what works for you and Tango as well. So maybe banging and bouncing aren't going to work for Tango. Maybe what he needs is a job to do. Something to get his mind thinking and not paying attention to all those goblins. I don't know, just tossing out an idea.

Anyway, good luck!

Linda
Member:
sodmonst

Posted on Thursday, Jun 24, 2010 - 9:48 pm:

What a face! I can't help but smile and wonder what's going on beneath that luxurious forelock.

I really like this statement. "I think we all have to figure out our own horses, based on our experience with them, and find a method that works for that particular horse and rider combination." Yes, Linda the ol' one rein stop isn't always a good idea here either. Poor HP seemed to think it was prelude to a beating, and then it was really on.

The bareback idea sounds OK to me too, Shannon. It's hard to get hung up when you are bareback and he can keep track of you and where you are. First rides were intimidating for me until I remembered that I used to climb on the youngsters out in the pasture long before they ever saw a saddle and just hang out while they grazed. It didn't occur to me that it wasn't safe, and it was just a natural progression from hanging out with them out there for a while each day.

So I decided to try it again with big 4 year-old horse that I'd been putting off, and it was a big success. I just groomed him in the pasture, then sat on the fence and groomed him, and when that got old, I started putting a foot on his back, and when that got old, a leg, and if he was having a bad day, then I'd only sit on the fence, and so forth. Saddling that horse and mounting up was so anticlimactic that I don't even remember doing it. It was just a non-event. Angie, you said he's curious. The very best teacher that I ever had said "help 'em turn the fear into curiosity." What about developing his curiosity and take your focus away from managing his fear?

Angie, who cares if you don't ride the horse until he's 20? It sounds like you're having fun with him, and isn't that really the point of it all? I'll bet he would be an excellent horse for equine assisted psychotherapy. That involves no riding at all, and the best horses are the sensitive ones.
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Thursday, Jun 24, 2010 - 11:01 pm:

Holy wah, lots of great stories and advice! I love you guys for taking the time to type it all out.

Shannon,

I had to shake my head at your story. Been there, done that.

A well know trainer who has lots of videos on YouTube gave told me to attach some plastic bags to his saddle and let him go. We started in the round pen, and Tango was going so fast I opened the fence to the large pasture. Like your horse, he raced around and around until I thought he'd DrOp dead. His circles did get smaller, and he did stop, but I felt like such a jerk that I spent weeks apologizing to him and told him I'd never do anything that dumb again! And it did not solve the problem, he just was more afraid of the saddle! And I think he's still suspicious that I might have scary noisy things up there.

And his shoulder lameness came back after that, so it set me back even farther!

It must be a learning curve we all experience; I know I have spells of "You blanking horse, you ARE going to figure this out/knock that off/learn how to...." And Tango has taught that don't work! I seriously think he's the smartest of out the 4 of them because he's made me think so much, and dig deep in my heart to reach him.

Yup, been on him bareback in the stall before I got on him with the saddle. Spent time hanging from the boards across the front of the stall, rubbing my foot, then leg all over him. Nope, I am not part monkey, or even that strong, and yup, it must have been quite the sight, lol!

Linda,

I am not sure how to describe his place in the herd. He rarely gets after anyone. Gem goes through spells of beating him up when she's in heat as she loves Cody then. He just moves away. I have noticed when Willow was acting ill a few times then he DrOve her away. Willow is the oldest, so I figure she's lead mare.

I don't really know!

I do know he will leave the rest to come see me every time. I don't feed treats so it's weird. In fact it seems he does that a bit less since our little "breakthroughs." I wonder what that means? He don't need to come to me for reassurance any more? Or to check in with me??

Geesh, he'll drive us all crazy if I keep talking about him, lol!!\

I think your last paragraph sums it up pretty good!

JFYI, I find less and less to like about CA's methods. I am now UNtraining my horses with the the nose to the side thing. I prefer to stop by siting down, letting my breath out, and if reins are needed, I set one hand waist level, and raise the other a bit. Not sure if I would remember to do that in bolting situation, but that is the idea. I keep learning something new and my 2 older horses are my guinea pigs, lol!!

(Just checked your profile, your boy is handsome too!)

HA HA Suzie, my husband would care if I am still not riding Tango when he's 20!! In fact he's been known to leave the area when I am working with Tango, guess he'd rather not witness my death or something. So little faith in me & my goofy horse!

I am having fun with him for sure. I have been wondering that WHEN (not IF) I finally start riding Tango if I won't loose all interest?? I got a feeling his trot is going be a challenge for me,(not a fan of 16H horses with BIG trots) and I don't think the canter is going to happen for years with me on board!

Equine what? psychotherapy?

Sounds like what I need for keeping a horse like Tango around.

I hope my round pen is dry enough tomorrow to saddle him up. Getting anxious to see if tomorrow is THE BIG DAY. Hubby will be home, so if I go off and get hurt, he'll notice eventually. ;-).
Member:
juliem

Posted on Thursday, Jun 24, 2010 - 11:17 pm:

I'd advise against tying anything to the saddle. If a horse gets scared and bolts, the scary thing just keeps chasing him escalating the fear and the flight response. You may get him stopped, but you will have created a situation where he will always feel the need to bolt to escape frightening things. This seems counter productive. I suppose if you could get the horse in a situation (small strong pen) where he eventually gave up, he'd lose his fear of that particular object, but you would not have taught him that facing a scary object or trying to remain calm would bring relief as you would if you were to manipulate the object with the ability to back off the pressure when the horse showed signs of "bravery"!
Member:
zarr

Posted on Friday, Jun 25, 2010 - 1:31 am:

Angie get a copy of Getting in T Touch by Tellington turn to pg.83 and read about Tez "up to that point, he had never been ridden w/o tranquilizers" " apparently, even while out of shape and traquillized he had been able to go up any mt. at a trot." "Tez is kind sweetand he is unusually intelligent and if he could talk he'd have a lot to say!". Tez is a flea bitten grey but if he were painted red he would look like Tango. Knew I had seen that face. If he were human we would say he over thinks the 'devil in the details!' Not a horse that would do well with Clint! Glad you didn't use that method Zarr would have been so gone at least several states over if I'd used Clint! :-) Remember my post couple weeks past about Zarr helping when I fell in the barn that was all the payback I will ever need for the time it took to earn his Trust in me!
Member:
frances

Posted on Friday, Jun 25, 2010 - 7:07 am:

To me, if a horse is already nervous the worst thing you can possibly do is to increase his fears by adding scary objects to the scenario.

I agree with those who favour always being calm and gentle, backing off a level if progress seems too much for him and generally doing everything in an unhurried, low key, matter of fact way.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Friday, Jun 25, 2010 - 7:29 am:

Angie you are right about every horse being an individual, Tango actually sounds way more like Sam in his younger years than Hank. Hank is not a nervous or spooky horse...just opinionated.

When I brought Sam home as a 3 yr.old he was much as you describe Tango and still is to a point, but believe it or not I was able to get Sam to a point of riding him in fourth of July parades. Tho not an easy task, and sometimes I just wanted to give up. His "spookiness and lack of trust" was worse to deal with then Hanks opinions!

I could go on and on about what helped him get over his fear of everything...but won't. He is still scared of everything, but I taught him to "contain" himself. He turned into a very good riding horse. So there is hope, keep up the good work, Tango may turn into one of your favorite horses under saddle.
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Friday, Jun 25, 2010 - 9:45 am:

I'll look up the book Cindy. Tez does sound like Tango. He is sweet, kind, and intelligent. I believe a high amount of curiosity is a sign of intelligence in a horse. As I've said many times, he's not dumb, just afraid and if I can find a way to teach him it's o.k. to be afraid, but NOT o.k. to react by running away, phew!

I have learned that letting a horse go to get over his fears is not correct. Even worse is attaching something to them they can't escape.

On the other hand, I don't think sneaking up works either. What seems to work with Tango so far, (knock on wood) is getting total relaxation THEN moving to something he reacts strongly to. I bet I used some T-Touch stuff without even knowing it. Our turning point seemed to be a combination of 2 things:

(I was going to save this for the "Success Chapter" ;-) just in case there were flaws yet)

One, we started out every session with working on releasing the jaw and poll. I am following what is taught in "Lessons in Lightness" don't recall the author. Simple version: vibrate a rein up to get licking and chewing to relax. The goal is to get the horse to lower his head when you use one rein. At a standstill from the ground first, then while moving. And lift both reins under the jaw and vibrate to release the poll.

The author is all about lightness and it's different from anything else I've read. Dressage riders would find it interesting! Don't put a horse ON THE BIT, it's THROUGH the bit; I believe that's how it was worded.

Second thing I did was lots of "Barely there" touching while standing on a mounting block. After I did vibration for release, I did gentle touches at his poll, moving down his neck. I kept asking him to move forward so I could put a foot in the stirrup. As I touched him, and kept him relaxed, he would slowly advance forward. Every time his head came back up, he would also back up, telling me NO he was ready for me to put a foot in the stirrup.

If he moved his butt away, which was a big problem from the right side, I would touch him with the dressage whip and ask him to stand the way I wanted him to. (I have 55 gal barrel in the round pen also, and lay my whip on that, and other tools I am using, as well as stand on it)

I think it took a week of daily lessons before he stood for me to put a foot in the stirrup. Sometimes the head lowering, the rubbing didn't seem to be working, so I would lunge him first with side reins, and ask him to move along the fence also,(I guess shoulder in, side passing, etc. don't know the terms, don't care) and lots of backing, etc. Then go back to the round pen and ask for relaxation.

In other words I have to read his energy level and adjust my plans. Some days he needs to move first, other days he will relax easily, and we can still work on the walk trot on the lunge after.

Tango had started balking at leaving the barn to go in the round pen. The barn opens directly into the round pen, so this was a problem! That was an "AHA" moment big time for me. Could I blame him? The round pen wasn't fun. I kept trying get him desensitized by doing the same things over and over and it was not working. Even if I went to the arena, my mind set was more of work him so he'd pay attention. And honestly there have been days when my frustration would get the best of me, and he of course picked up on that! I've never hit him during training, but I bet he thought I was going to more than once.

When it quit being fun, I had to back up and rethink what I was doing, what I wanted. Tango seemed to be still asking me to help him.

HEY!!! Maybe that's why there is a shift now! Remember above I questioned why it seemed he didn't leave the herd the same to come see me? I mean he still does, but it is DIFFERENT. Like instead of immediately coming to meet me, he will keep grazing, slowly move towards me, come a few steps with his head up, ears forward, say hello, and go back to grazing. Like he take me or leave me, lol!

He feels a different connection, figures I HAVE finally figured out what he was trying to tell me all along. I don't think I'd want to know what's been going through his mind every time I was approaching with a bag tied to the end of a whip, or whatever! Is it really necessary he needs a plastic bag rubbed all over him? Or a huge ball bounced all over? Or a foam floaty tube swung over his head? I can probably take down the wall of "water" too; he's been fine with that for weeks.

Just thinking about spending the last few years doing the same things over and over and then seeing progress so quickly just by changing MY perspective. Amazing.

Diane,

I'd love to hear about your journey with Sam if you'd care to share. Sometimes a few words about something someone noticed or a slight change they made makes a world a difference in the results they get.

Here's a link to the book "Lessons in Lightness"

https://www.markrusselltraining.com/lessonsinlightness.html

and the Amazon link:

https://www.amazon.com/Lessons-Lightness-Art-Educating-Horse/dp/1599210711/ref=pd _bbs_sr_1/104-7184783-4387967?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1194020860&sr=1-1
Member:
zarr

Posted on Friday, Jun 25, 2010 - 10:27 am:

Zarr is one that incorporated terror into his resistance.He would work in circle then lash out at person in the arena with front feet flying! That made me blink the first time or two did I mention he always moved towards me at that time? Lots of options at that point namely scream and run But instead I laughed ?? Don't ask blonde and old has odd reactions.That brought him up short.Never saw that before he hadn't.Was that lightness yes! Did it work yes! Will Zarr do lunging exercises w/o halter etc in open pasture now yes! Because I ask with respect and lightness! So many Zarr stories.

Such a book we could all put together and turn the training world on its head! :-)
Member:
lhenning

Posted on Friday, Jun 25, 2010 - 10:51 am:

That book looks like it puts into practice what I have been diddling around with all spring. I have used NH techniques for several years now and find it very successful in training my horse, especially for a novice with no dressage experience. However, I found it sadly lacking in rider training and my poor balance was causing all sorts of problems for us. For that, nothing is better than the classical methods, IMO. This book blends the two, which in theory sure sounds like a happy horse and rider. I will give it a try.

From your description, it does sound like Tango is not very dominant and perhaps lack of confidence is a big issue for him. Small risks with successful outcomes help to build confidence. Staying in his comfort zone won't help him, nor will huge risks such as forcing scary objects on his body. A small risk might be having a scary object twenty feet away from him, but when he relaxes, he gets to walk away from it so it ends successfully. How close it is really depends on his level of comfort vs. fear. Much praise and petting when he is a big brave boy.

I also like the idea of having him loose in a round pen with something "scary" around. I don't mean a big horror item, just some small thing you know will get his attention. Let his natural curiosity help him explore it on his own. Praise him for the slightest try, even just standing and looking at the object.

Diane, I would also be interested to hear what you did with Sam to help him learn to contain himself. It is very impressive that you rode him in parades. I think Cutter would shoot to the moon if I tried doing that right now.
Member:
sodmonst

Posted on Friday, Jun 25, 2010 - 12:09 pm:

This discussion is so fun and thought provoking. Thank you Angie for starting it. There's so much good stuff coming in from everyone on the thread. Thanks fellow threaders too.

Cindy O'Dell, you said something that I didn't have the nerve to say. Thank you so much for saying how helpful it is to laugh at your horse's momentary insanity. Laughing when my horse freaks out over being saddled or having his rump touched works so well. If I just laugh at him and wait a second, he gets over himself comes back to earth. Thanks again for saying that, it confirms what I've been noticing and helps me believe in myself.

I am going to try to describe something that my teacher showed me. I got the technique right away, and the significance of it a couple of years later I'm putting it at the end here so if anyone isn't interested in that they know to stop reading.

1. put something scarey on the end of a long flexible wand. For a nervous horse you might start with a small fluttering survey tape, for a bolder horse, use a plastic garbage bag. For fun, incorporate a "cookie" or some kind of treat tied into it somehow.

2. The round pen is a great place to do this, but not absolutely necessary.

3. Stand in the center and move the wand enough that the horse wants to move away from it. After that, when he runs by you or away from you, shake the scarey thing after he goes by. Every time that he runs by, make it move some behind him as soon as his butt passes your position. If he turns and runs the other direction, wiggle it behind him for a second when he's turned around.

4. Do NOT terrorize the horse, just give him motivation to run away a little. If you are not over doing it he'll start tp wamt to look at the scarey thing. It's important not to scare him so much that he doesn't feel safe enough to look at what's "chasing" him.

5. Whenever he looks at it, make it retreat from him a little. When he steps forward, make it retreat some more. Don't let him come all the way up. The object is to make him more and more intrigued with this scarey thing that runs away from him when he chases it. As you progress, let him get his nose almost up to it. Keep backing it away so that he has to follow it to get a sniff. Eventually you can make it disappear, or you can let him catch it, "tear it up" and get the "cookie that's hidden in it."

5. Do this exercise with lots of objects, and variations. Over time, the horse is getting reinforced for stalking scarey things.

I'll bet that the participants in this thread will "get" what the underlying idea of this faster than I did.
Member:
zarr

Posted on Friday, Jun 25, 2010 - 1:20 pm:

Susie wonderful job :-).Let them catch it kill the dragon and Puff no poof that dragon is gone! Zarr when he first arrived was uncatchable at the last minute zip he was gone,and the chase was on!!! Not being in shape to run much I sat and waited to see.Sure enough from the far corner of the barn a head appeared "where did you go you are suppose to chase me?After that the thrill was gone and he stood so sweet and waited to be haltered OK maybe after the 3rd/4th time." It really is a horsey IQ test for humans All of it, we are just slow on the up take at times!!
Member:
stek

Posted on Friday, Jun 25, 2010 - 1:33 pm:

It really is important that the scary thing retreat from the horse. A great way to get horses to gain confidence about bicycles, dirt bikes, quads etc is to let the horse 'chase' them at a comfortable distance, closing the distance as they feel brave enough. My own scaredy cat loves to chase things, I think it makes him feel Manly =)
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Friday, Jun 25, 2010 - 5:37 pm:

A very thought provoking discussion indeed! I was really just curious if anyone thought the fact he stayed laying down was a sign of trust, lol!

Oh good, I am not nuts when I laugh out loud at Tango's antics?? I thought I bumped my head a few too many times!

I used to say things like "Hey, you big dummy, that was my foot you almost ran over." Or use some sailor language when he spooked and took off and all I could do was sit and watch, hoping he didn't get hurt or wreck any tack, take the fence down, etc. Now I just laugh and say "Hey big guy, what ARE doing? Where's the monster? Goofy Gills!" And I start looking for the monster, keeping an eye on him while letting him think I am ignoring him. He really can't stand being ignored, so he gets de-(con)fused pretty quickly.

I think us laughing also keeps us relaxed.

One thing I did take away from CA was moving away with some scary object. I will walk around the arena, "monster thingy" in front of me, and have the lunge line on the horse. I let out as much line as needed and keep moving. I try to slowly reel the line/horse in closer until I feel the horse right behind me and the monster. I am not pulling, just taking up slack. I expect the horse to keep moving behind me as I am between him and the scary thing like plastic on a whip.

That has worked for all of mine, including Tango.

O.k., who wants to edit this book?? Is there a great book out there of horse training stories by women?
Member:
zarr

Posted on Friday, Jun 25, 2010 - 7:42 pm:

Not the eclectic stories found here! They are real not fancy lots of goofy stuff that doesn't have a lot of glitz potnetial but I think it would be a wonderful Tango Project for some of our would be writers! :-)
Member:
mariean

Posted on Friday, Jun 25, 2010 - 10:01 pm:

Ok, I'm not an expert, nor do I have half the experience of you, or others on this site, , but I really think mounting a horse in a stall is a dangerous, maybe unnecessary, risk, and I would hate for somebody reading this post in the future not be aware of the risks.
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Saturday, Jun 26, 2010 - 12:19 am:

Marie,

That is a good point. I think most anything involving these wonderful BIG animals involves risk! I am not suggesting that just anyone start getting on their horses in stalls, or use that as a method to train a young horse. It helped me with my situation with this specific horse. I've never done with any other horses, nor do I plan on it.

If you look at the picture above, the stall has a very high ceiling, a partial inside wall there. The door going outside is a half door that you can't see in the picture, and the sliding door is always open a bit so I can get through it quickly if need be.

I always have a helmet on also, and most of the time someone is in the barn or outside; I am not home alone doing this!

In other words I took as many precautions as I could. I felt safe every time because he felt secure in his stall.

Any horse owner should only do what they feel they can do and DO SAFELY.
Member:
lilo

Posted on Saturday, Jun 26, 2010 - 9:57 am:

Hi all - I have been following this thread with interest - so many different experiences.

I second Marie Anne in that mounting inside a stall is very dangerous. I have a neighbor who attempted this and got hurt in the process.

I was also interested in the different viewpoints about Clinton Anderson. I love watching him and Pat Parelli working horses on the ground - I wish I had the body language that they have perfected so. But, when it comes to riding, I go back to the principles I was taught by my first instructors, who were German (therefore believed in classical dressage principles).

Lilo
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Saturday, Jun 26, 2010 - 10:52 am:

I got an email from a friend who has been following this discussion. Made me think that perhaps some are wondering why I have an 8 year old horse I am not riding YET? Thought I should point out that Tango has spent months of his life on stall rest due to a shoulder injury he got the first month I had him home. I'd start training, he'd get lame. Rest, start again, something would set him off, lame again.

Than add the last 3 years of me teaching myself to trim 4 horses. Of course Tango has "weird" and very HARD hoofs. And he wasn't always keen on having his feet handled either.

No doubt all the time I spent working on his hoofs taught him trust and definitely taught both of us patience!

And it's how I know he is comfortable with me in the stall with him, or ON him in the stall.
Member:
zarr

Posted on Saturday, Jun 26, 2010 - 11:29 am:

There is NO place that I would not trust Zarr None!
That being said it might be the 12yr old in me.You all remember the days when there was no thought to riding one just jumped aboard and rode the wind! No thought just feel perhaps that is an answer in its self!? :-)
Member:
sodmonst

Posted on Saturday, Jun 26, 2010 - 7:56 pm:

Cindy, when I was twelve, young, and dumb I saw a drawing of an Indian riding a horse with no saddle and just a little piece of leather around the horses jaw, and a feather tied to it. Sooooo

I got out a piece of baling twine, put the loop into my mare's mouth, and tied it under her chin. I found a feather somehow and stuck it into the knot, mounted up, and headed over to my friend's place. (4 miles away) About 15 minutes into the trip, I noticed that she'd spit the loop out and that I was riding down the road with just a string and a loop hanging from my hand!

While I was wondering what to do, she calmly made a U-turn, and began walking home.
Near home she broke into a nice little canter. We passed a neighbor pushing a baby pram as we turned into the drive. She stopped in the yard and started to eat. I went and got her halter. I always wonder what the lady thought as she saw a naked horse and a girl loping on by her! Thank heavens she didn't tell my folks! I might have been grounded for the summer! Crazy things we did as kids might be a fun thread here.
Member:
stek

Posted on Saturday, Jun 26, 2010 - 8:35 pm:

Oh Susie :-) chicken feather and all, I love it =)

I should have outgrown the 12 year old lack of thinking by now but when my arab was our only horse on our small property he would routinely graze in the yard while we'd sit out on the deck and drink wine and relax. He'd sidle up to the deck for a scratch and I'd ride him around the yard bareback with nothing on him for fun.

That was all well and good till one evening he either spooked or maybe I had a tack in my pocket or who knows what, but he went bucking and farting across the yard, ran into a fence, he bounced off and went one way, I tumbled off the other and broke my ankle in the process. Age does not bring wisdom!!

Even the biggest pet you trust completely can cause you pain, if only by accident. Still, I miss those wild pony rides around the yard ...
Member:
stek

Posted on Saturday, Jun 26, 2010 - 8:53 pm:

Hmmm, now where did I get 'chicken feather'??

One other thing to add: I do think backing a horse in a stall is dangerous, of course so is backing a horse in a round pen, arena, out on the trail etc. The best thing you can do to add to your safety while working with a young horse is to have an assistant on the ground to help keep the horse quiet and pull you out from under them and call the ambulance should you get tossed. That is one rule I will never break: my first few rides on any young horse there will be someone else at least in close enough proximity to see me take a fall and help me out of trouble.
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Saturday, Jun 26, 2010 - 11:19 pm:

Chicken feathers, rattling chicken bones, o boy!

Good advice about having someone ready to call the ambulance, ha!

We had a break in the rain today, and for a few hours the humidity was actually lower then the temp. I thought since it was somewhat bearable outside, I'd saddle up Tango. I thought maybe I'd fully get on him as he was being so good the last few times.

Really tired of waiting for hubby to be on the safe end of a lead rope!

It was not to be. The horse flies were horrible, and I don't know if Tango kicked at a fly on his belly, or what, but he humped up his back, and did bolt a few steps. Nothing major, and just on the lunge line, but it just seemed he wasn't "with me" today. Not feeling connected, so ended his lesson early. Guess horses don't like muggy buggy days any more than we do?

Did go on a short ride with my daughter. Unbelievable how muddy it was in the woods. Poor Cody was struggling the few times we left the trail to go around downed trees, and then got a bit gimpy on the way home so I ended up walking!

Ya, I miss those days of just jumping on and riding too! No fear, no worries, be home before dark.

******
I lived on a farm with 14 horses from about age 10 - 13. I had never rode before then, but I soon started sneaking rides on the different horses when I figured the owners weren't going to show up. Like on full moon nights.

One beautiful summer night I snuck out of the house after bedtime and decided to ride the mare who was the pride & joy of the farm. She was a beautiful chestnut (I seem to have trouble with RED horses, lol!)Arabian mare. Everyone bragged how special she was, how responsive, how fast, blah blah blah.

I put her halter on, and a lead rope to make reins (guess I thought it would be quicker to get off than the bridle if I got caught?)and started riding her around the pasture bareback.

The horses all took off running for the barn. My calm little mare was chugging like a steam engine right in the middle of the herd! There was a 3 sided shelter on the side of the barn. As we all entered that at a dead run, I had visions of flying over a mesh and barbed wire gate at the end. Barb wire and flesh don't mix well.

Instead the lead gelding of the herd and I smacked heads so hard I learned what it meant to see stars. I have no memory of how I got off, or if I took the halter & rope off that mare.

Dumb and dangerous. TOOOO much trust! If my daughter did that I'd ground her butt for years, lol!
Member:
sodmonst

Posted on Sunday, Jun 27, 2010 - 1:35 am:

OWIE! Broken ankles and concussions! Angie, that was such a great kid thing to do. Having a secret wreck at night cause you couldn't resist a beautiful horse Do you know anyone with catlike reflexes and sticky pants who would be willing to top this horse off for you a few times? I needed to do that with one little horse. He bucked me off a couple of times and then he had my number. Sooo off he went to a ranch where he "rode fences" and did cow work for a couple months. He came back "not so fat" and much more business like. It's always nice to know someone with sticky pants and good hands.
Member:
zarr

Posted on Sunday, Jun 27, 2010 - 1:00 pm:

See I knew there were a bunch of twelve yr. olds on here!! YEAH! I used to DrOp out of big oak tree onto whatever horse's back passed under ? Thank the Lord they didn't explode just looked over their shoulders Yup there she is again!Maybe thats why they started avoiding the trees ? :-) I rode bareback so much that to this day I don't like saddles! I used pheasant feathers in the war string manes and tails.The only excitment beyond a brief wild run was getting caught in a whiteout!No clue where to go just hung on and prayed the mare who wasn't even mine got us home and In the barn.It took a long time to thaw enough to slide off! The poor horses what I wouldn't give to hear the midnight ramblings in the barns.Then again ....
Member:
mrose

Posted on Monday, Jun 28, 2010 - 10:41 am:

I think you should start a new thread Angie; you could call it "don't ever let your kid do this!" It would get a lot of contributions, at least from me!

I have a theory on way so many of us were able to do crazy things on/with our horses when we were younger. We had no fear. We didn't get nervous. Because of that, our nervousness and fear were not transmitted to our horses. Instead, our own confidence was transmitted. If somehow we could all ride with that same inner confidence and lack of nerves, many (not all) of our riding problems would be solved imo. Think about it. Today we often ride stressed and tense, overthinking much of what we want to do. And, we are already often tense from the goings on of the day, and carry that tenseness inside our bodies whether we are aware of it or not. Then, we have something we want to accomplish, something we want ourselves or our horses to do correctly. We think it through; we envision how it should be, we work at it. Remember that Nike slogan "Just do it?" If somehow we could "just do it," just hop on carefree and relaxed and just do it, our rides would be SO much better!
Member:
frances

Posted on Monday, Jun 28, 2010 - 2:48 pm:

That is all SO true, Sara! I'm going to work hard at being carefree tomorrow
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Monday, Jun 28, 2010 - 3:18 pm:

Sara, that's wonderful advice. But as I know you KNOW, our bodies aren't always in agreement with "Just do it" concept! And yes, I do value my neck more now that I am older. And do think more. As I have said many times I am most apt to break a leg, or my neck, falling down the stairs or tripping, than working with horses. I think because I DO take the time to be as safe as possible. I have no embarrassment whatsoever having one hand on the horn if I am concerned about a spook or buck coming.

Sometimes I long for the days when I had the attitude get me on the horse, then let 'em go, I will be fine! I had more than 9 lives I think.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Monday, Jun 28, 2010 - 4:20 pm:

AHHH to be young again and have no fear. I'd be embarrassed to tell stories of my whimsical rides. I would have had Hank mastered as a 3 yr. old if I could have mustered up that bravery (stupidity) again.

Sara you are so right tho, we bring too much trash to the table sometimes and it effects us and the horse. My best rides on Hank are when I ride like when I was young without a care in the world, for some reason I can't do it all the time.... but I am practicing
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Thursday, Jul 1, 2010 - 2:39 pm:

WE DID IT, WE DID IT!! TEN whole MINUTES on Tango today!!! Waaahooooo!!

Horse time has been hard to get in around here; put it off til "later" and then I am too darn tired to do anything but feed them, check hoofs. So today I told hubby "HORSES FIRST" then I will...(insert long list!)

Gave Gem her time, then saddled up Tango and did the basic lunge routine; walk, trot, change directions, stop, back, and a few canter laps. Attach reins, some "gives" and fence work.

No back humping, butt scooting, or any sign of worry. Very attentive.

Did someone switch horses on me?!

Back to round pen, foot in one stirrup, lay over saddle, rub all around him. Still good!

Call hubby and convince him he needs a break from working on the porch, PLEASE come be my saftey guy. (because he does value my life, right?)

Got right on Tango, and it was very, very, low key. Couple of steps, halt, repeat, few steps back. Should have gave hubby a lesson perhaps with another horse on how I wanted HIS body positioned, but oh well. It went well, and that's what counts.

Might be days or a week before I have help again so the next chapter might be awhile. Don't think I want to try alone yet.

An interesting thought; hoof related...is it possible Tango's "goosiness" was something that started at the hoof and affected him all the way up to his back?? I think he's moving better than ever before. My last few tweaks have been bar work. He's seemed ticklish on his right front at times; as if anything touching the sole or maybe a flared area, tickled him!

How weird is that??
Member:
lhenning

Posted on Thursday, Jul 1, 2010 - 4:03 pm:

Waaaahooooo! Good for you! I can just imagine the big grin on your face while you were sitting up there. An uneventful moment for Tango, but an awesome moment for you. Keep it up and one day you will be riding that boy all over the place.
Member:
stek

Posted on Thursday, Jul 1, 2010 - 4:07 pm:

Great news Angie :-) Don't forget to give hubby a big 'ole smooch for helping out ;)
Member:
canter

Posted on Thursday, Jul 1, 2010 - 4:24 pm:

YEAH! That's wonderful, Angie. I hope all your work and patience continues to pay off and soon you will no longer need a 'safety guy'.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Thursday, Jul 1, 2010 - 4:54 pm:

Congrats Angie!!! Short but sweet may be the way to keep the sessions with him. I used to use a "safety guy" with Hank until I realized it actually made him worse. Hubby made Hank nervous, because he was nervous
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Thursday, Jul 1, 2010 - 5:42 pm:

Thanks guys!

Hmmm...Diane, I think short & sweet will be the way to go with both Tango & hubby, lol! Tango was a bit confused I think as he wasn't sure whose cues to follow. But maybe confused keeps him thinking, and thinking prevents silly bolting, not a bad thing, huh?

I actually wish I could do another session after supper, but basketball comes first for number 1 daughter and hubby is very involved so I am alone again, drats!
Member:
zarr

Posted on Thursday, Jul 1, 2010 - 8:41 pm:

((((( GRIN )))) ! :-)
Member:
lilo

Posted on Thursday, Jul 1, 2010 - 8:44 pm:

Great!!! Many short, good rides to build up the confidence - that may be the way to go. Congratulations, Lilo
Member:
sodmonst

Posted on Thursday, Jul 1, 2010 - 9:31 pm:

Angie, good for you! Good for Tango! Short little sessions sounds right. Good going!
Member:
sodmonst

Posted on Thursday, Jul 1, 2010 - 10:58 pm:

Angie, just curious. What was the saddle pad made of today? Was it the same one as other times?
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Friday, Jul 2, 2010 - 10:06 am:

Susie,

I do a problem regarding SADDLES & fit with Tango. My treeless is more comfortable for him, but tends to move more side to side, and I have to watch so it doesn't creep up on his shoulders. I sometimes use the "skito pad" with the treeless, sometimes the impact gel pad. I don't think fleece or wool makes a difference!

My other saddle stays put a bit better, but I have to be careful with the fit at his withers. I use shims on all my horses to make sure the shoulder moves freely.

He is wide to begin with, and right now a bit of a chunky monkey. I do of course take all kinds of time making sure he is comfortable, his shoulders move under the front of the saddle, etc.

I know, it sounds like "Geez, maybe a new saddle would make a difference?" Well...ya, it might but he's acted the same with a bareback pad on, and with the surcingle on, so I have no doubt it's an issue of movement and noise above him. Or sometimes I think the back cinch scares him when he feels it. And I can't even begin to think of buying new saddle for a horse that I might never ride! (hubby just saw what I was typing and that is NOT going well..."ANOTHER SADDLE??") Before I buy another saddle, 2 to sell, and I want Tango at a leaner weight!

The only thing that I did do different yesterday was take the back cinch off completely, but that was AFTER ground work.

As long as we keep progressing a new saddle is planned that will be just his. I am thinking maybe the Lady Fabtron as it is shorter and comes in a wide width also. Or maybe my treeless will be fine if he trims down and muscles up.

Going to continue with lunging as part of his weight reduction plan! More ground work will only make him better under saddle. Of course after YEARS of ground work you'd think he would be perfect by now...sigh.
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Saturday, Aug 7, 2010 - 6:17 pm:

Wow, where has the time gone? I got on Tango July 1st, and it's August 7th today, and we did ride number 2 finally!! O.k., the weather has been horrible here and I know many of you are also experiencing humidity, heat, and endless rain.

Geez, guess I'd better not advertise to take on any horses to train with that record.

So today I saddled up Tango, did LOTS & LOTS of round pen work. I wanted PERFECTION and 110% ATTENTION! He was more lazy and inattentive than he was spooky, so I kept doing safety checks, and he was passing. Worked his butt harder than he was used to but I figured it is MY neck and I suspect I've babied him a bit.

Got on and did lots of small circles, lots of moving hindquarters over, halting, and some backing, and all very very low key. I was trying to trust him and keep reins loose, so it was a fine line between doing that and keeping him occupied!

I hope this is the start of a more set routine. And one that doesn't constantly involve working him before I WORK him, lol!
Member:
scooter

Posted on Saturday, Aug 7, 2010 - 7:47 pm:

Glad it went well Angie, I still think consistency is the name of the game with any horse. The weather has been horrid here too. I have been riding Hank in the arena to get his attention and off we go. Sometimes it isn't necessary, but at this point his refresher course in there and Yes working his butt makes him remember he's a good boy and I am the "boss" He's having an excellent summer under saddle. I hope your horned one turns out well also..Hank is still Hank...but he would be rather boring otherwise... keep up the good work.
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Saturday, Aug 7, 2010 - 8:45 pm:

Sounds like a productive session, Angie.

Good work!
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