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Discussion on Mare won't back up under saddle
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Member:
boots
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Posted on Monday, Sep 13, 2010 - 5:40 pm:
This mare is a dream. She does everything very well except to back up when riding. On the ground she does this very well for me. Now, she is a game player, picking one thing at a time to be stubborn about, but I have had her 5 years and this backing problem is consistent. She knows what I want and will start with front feet, one step or so and then plants all four and will not move. I have tried my feet, reins, balance, voice and all combos. Once she was frightened when riding in the barn and she backed up like crazy, so I know it isn't a physical problem. She is cute, stubborn and definitely in charge of this one. Any ideas ???? I ride western and no bit. Thanks.
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Monday, Sep 13, 2010 - 6:37 pm:
My first thought was arthritis in the hocks but if she backs up on the ground easily, perhaps not.
If she backed up due to being frightened, don't put too much stock in that because the fear instinct will override the pain situation.
If this is one issue that is ongoing I would try harder to look for a source of physical discomfort.
Is it possible that your saddle or pad is hitting too far back on her back when she is going in reverse?
Consider too, the bit or teeth.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Sep 13, 2010 - 7:11 pm:
You have framed the answer yourself Boots: if it is not a physical problem it is a training one. I think a bit might help you but surprised she cannot learn without the bit. Perhaps it is time to seek professional help.
If you want to make another stab at it try to create a cue you can associate with her backing on the ground that is associated with a reward. Then try the cue while on her back.
DrO
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Monday, Sep 13, 2010 - 9:44 pm:
Do you back her on the ground one rein at a time or pull back on both? You say you are not using a bit, so I can't ask if she gives to the bit, but does she lower her head with rein pressure?
Here is what I would I try: Back from the ground, facing to the rear. Say BACK BACK BACK and each "BACK" is one step. First with a halter. Next I would use whatever you are using...a bitless bridle or hack more? and alternate reins. If one foot is more forward, ask with that rein that she move that foot back first, then the other rein, etc.
BACK BACK BACK means move NOW and go for lightness and speed...a crop on the chest once or twice if needed.
On her back, ask her to lower her head. I do this by pulling (Not really pulling...taking the slack out) of one rein towards my hip, the other rein I lift up mid neck. That should get a head lowering response.
When she is doing that well, lift your weight UP...make your body sit up lighter so to speak, use the reins like I said above, and say back, and alternate your legs on her sides.
It might be that you are leaning back and the saddle is digging into her back.
Just my 5 cents worth. And what has worked for me.
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Member:
boots
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Posted on Monday, Sep 13, 2010 - 10:56 pm:
Great insight and ideas for my girl!
Vicki Z -She does have arthritis, but this refusal has been going on for the 5 years I have had her. I am going to go out and watch her with the herd and see if I can catch her backing up on her own. The pasture is hilly, so she gets her exercise. She gets Cosequin ASU every day and a little bute after a ride. You are right about the fear instinct. I hadn't thought of that. Her teeth are fine, regular care, but a good thought. Thank you.
Dr.O -We used a curb bit for the first two years that I had her.She acted the same, no backing. Perhaps I should put the bit back for a few rides to get her attention. It's worth a try. I love the cue idea. That just might work! That is genius! I will try it first. Thank you.
Angie KJ -This is almost what I have done, but without the refining steps that you have explained. On the ground she will back with just a finger on her chest. I haven't added the alternating reins on the ground,and this sounds like an important step here. Thank you.
Well, I am going to be busy with all of this. I hope I can report soon that she is backing! I know that she knows what I want, now to get her to DO it.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Monday, Sep 13, 2010 - 11:15 pm:
boots, I ride Hank with a bitles bridle. One thing I have found with a horse is you don't force them to back, you will meet resistance. The no fail method I have used on peoples horses that won't back... as long as your horse will back from the ground that is and knows what it is.
I know this may sound kind of off the beaten path a little but it has worked 100% of the time for me with or without a bit.
Sit deep in your saddle, lean back a bit, put your legs forward...on the side of her chest almost. Put light pressure on the reins until you meet slight resistance, poll is bent and hold it there...no more no less. wiggle your fingers side to side.. one rein at a time not both and tap your feet on that side of the chest of the fingers you are wiggling...do NOT pull back just slight see-saw action. bump bump with your feet on chest/shoulder area.
If even the slightest try is made...even if she leans back...release and reward...repeat. Hank backs soon as I put my butt down and my feet slightly forward now with hardly any rein. He'll back a mile like that.
Good Luck
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 14, 2010 - 1:00 pm:
My boy Lance used to back wonderfully but for several years now it has been difficult for him due to the arthritis in his hocks.
I know that it is not an attitude thing with him, but I guess I would wonder about that if I did not know how great he used to be at doing it.
Even with backing out from the trailer, he goes very slowly and steps out with his rear legs wide apart.
He goes well for trail riding if I keep him ridden regularly but he prefers NOT to back any longer.
Good luck with your mare.
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Member:
nancynf
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 14, 2010 - 1:42 pm:
Classical dressage teaches that all movements start with the hind legs and the impulse to move forward (impulsion). Although it sounds like an oxymoron, impulsion includes moving backward or sideways. The rider signals the horse to move with his leg aids and closes his hands to resist the forward motion, but never by pulling back. The horse, finding the front door closed, moves back, and the rider instantly yields the resisting rein and leg aid. Ask for one step at a time until the horse responds readily. Should the rider forget to resist with his hands when he gives the original leg aid, the horse will move calmly forward into a gentle, elastic contact. I've taught green horses to back this way without resistance, but you have to be tactful, gentle, and patient as with all new requests. Backing is tricky since horses can learn to use it as an evasion, and with an inexperienced or rough trainer one can end up teaching the horse to rear! Timing and tact are essential. I do think that with your mare, some physical discomfort may be the problem, since she sound as though she thoroughly understands the aids and is usually, except in this one instance, cooperative and obedient.
Might it be her back?
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 14, 2010 - 2:06 pm:
I am not any means close to a classical rider; just someone who enjoys "messing with" the idea of trying to get my horses nice and light, and moving where I am directing them. No high school fancy moves; in fact I bet I am doing more wrong than right!
(My poor horses, lol!)
'Nways, I have done what Diane suggested above and it worked, some what. Then one time I read an article about this cowboy who was winning all the time with his horse doing sliding stops. I guess most riders were "sitting down" to stop, and he was doing just the opposite: He kept his weight off the horses rear as much as possible and he believed his horses sat down more and slid farther.
So with that in mind, I "sit down" (or stop riding, I guess a half halt to you dressage riders) to slow or halt, (along with saying "whoa or Sshhhhh") but lift my weight UP when asking for a back. It may start out as contact with the reins, but I want the horse to back when I lift the reins and lift my weight while alternating legs with his steps. I have no clue what leg I am moving with his legs, I just go with what feels correct!
I almost always ask for a head lowering AND backing when I halt a horse. There must be some reason for it I learned some place, but don't remember what, lol!
If it is a sore back, I bet keeping your weight more off than on might help? What about riding her bareback and seeing if she backs easier? Our little short backed Arab at times will not budge any direction...always turns out to be pain in her back some place.
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Member:
boots
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 14, 2010 - 6:09 pm:
Wow - so much info. You all are terrific and full of things that SHOULD work. I will concentrate on one at a time and slowly to see if anything does click with her. Our vet checks her back and does some chiropractic maneuvers from time to time, and I will have her do it again with this problem in mind. I certainly don't want to hurt my girl. Then some one or combo of these suggestions will be tried. I am sure that she is in her stall right now planning how to counter every effort. I only ride for fun, but on a trail I would like to know that I can ask her to back up if necessary. It's a safety thing. Also I want to WIN this contest!! Thank you DianE, Nancynf, Hank and Lance for joining in with help.
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