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Discussion on Head carriage all over the place
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Member:
njen
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Posted on Tuesday, Oct 5, 2010 - 12:18 pm:
I have a new horse and we're in the getting to know you stage. He's 7 but I don't know anything about his previous experience other than he was trail ridden. My problem is that he likes to stick his nose straight out and when I jiggle a rein to bring his head down he overcompensates and puts it towards his chest. I spend so much time trying to get his head into a nice frame that I can't focus on anything else. He seems like he wants to do as I ask, but we end up with his head up, down, out etc. Could it be he doesn't have the muscular development yet? Should I consider a martingale? Thanks!
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Tuesday, Oct 5, 2010 - 12:31 pm:
Perhaps you could experiment with a bosal or bitless bridle. A martingale will only make the horse feel more confined.
I know of a horse who did this due to a bridle that was too tight.
My horse carries his head best when ridden with a simple rope halter.
Personally, I hate to see martingales used for trail riding purposes.
Be sure also as to the state of his teeth.
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Member:
canter
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Posted on Tuesday, Oct 5, 2010 - 1:43 pm:
It may be that he simply was never properly trained to relax into the bit. You may want to rule out teeth issues and poorly fitting tack. If all that checks out OK, I would just start completely fresh with him. He needs to learn that contact is not a bad place to be, but a comfortable place to be. If he is hyperflexing into his chest, he's avoiding contact either because it bothers him or he hasn't learned it's OK. Since you don't know his history, it's possible that someone with rough hands rode him previously and that is why he is so sensitive to any contact.
Pretend he's never been ridden, and start completely fresh. If he's had bad experiences, it may take him longer to get it than a horse with no experience. Perhaps longing him with side reins may provide the steady contact he needs to start out with.
I agree with Vicki that a martingale is probably not the best idea. It will only prevent his head from going up way high, but won't teach him to give willingly or round his back into the bit.
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Member:
dres
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Posted on Tuesday, Oct 5, 2010 - 1:52 pm:
What bit are you using.. ? Just guess here, but if the horse has only been ridden on trails,maybe he has been cowboy trained to DrOp his nose down below the shoulder and has found an evasion of ducking to his chest... A good idea is to have steady foreward hands and get him light off your leg stepping UP into your contact... a very slow process but one that will make a horse lighter and easier to ride..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
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Member:
njen
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Posted on Tuesday, Oct 5, 2010 - 2:37 pm:
I am using a D-ring snaffle. I do trail ride, but also low jumping (working up to it eventually), though I agree with the no-martingale policy for trail riding. I will have his teeth checked too. Thanks for all the suggestions.
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Tuesday, Oct 5, 2010 - 3:08 pm:
I agree with Fran's idea of starting as if he's had nothing done with him. I am a big fan of ground work; I'd say round pen work but some people use the round pen incorrectly in my opinion. Either in a round pen, or on a lunge line, just ask for him to respond to your cues for walk and trot and whoa for now, depending on what he knows. NO bridle, just a good fitting halter. Watch how he carries his head working that way.
Then I'd put the bridle on and see if he carries his head differently. And play with how the bit is in his mouth too. Some horses like it snugger (is that a word? Don't look right)others like to pick it up and hold it more.
I would also start then with very loose side reins, without that stupid donut! If you don't have solid side reins, make them solid. I cut the rubber donut out and rejoined the 2 parts together.
It will probably take lots of trotting over a period of days until he learns to reach down and make contact with bit. I personally would spend a few weeks doing ground work before I called someone to do teeth, but then I am cheap that way ;-).
And I wonder if riding large circles later on, with the outside rein held for support and the inside rein asking for support would help? Dressage experts would know more about that than I.
JFI, my oldest mare who tends to have teeth problems don't seem bothered by a snaffle, but any bit with a port will bother her when he teeth need work. And her head goes up, or she starts going to one side really bad. Of course that's just her.
And 7 is young yet. Start over, take your time, enjoy him, and consider why you want his head in a certain place??
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Member:
lynnland
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Posted on Wednesday, Oct 6, 2010 - 7:58 am:
Hi Jennifer,
Can you give us an idea what breed this horse is? It really makes a difference in their natural head carriage. Having his teeth checked would be my first move. I would recommend against "jiggling" the rein as that would be just plain uncomfortable for him (especially if the bit isn't fitted just right) and will result in a negative response; which is exactly what you got when he tucked his head into his chest. Head carriage is about impulsion from behind and acceptance of gentle, steady weight of the bit. As for jumping, if he isn't tossing his head up, I would not use a martingale. If he is...you should likely try to solve this on the flat rather than potentially scaring him by tying his head down; that again can result in the total opposite of what you are looking for. As we have not idea what his previous riders might have been like, I would simply ride out and enjoy him for a while and just leave his head be.
Just a quick note on bits. It seems we spend a ton of time and $ on fitting saddles but very little on fitting bits (or maybe that's just me ?  ).I am not a big believer in changing bits a lot but I bought a Myler MB04 D-ring(shallow port, independent side action, etc.) about 6 months ago that made my horse really happy. He was always very easy and responsive but was shaking his head a bit on the tight turns. Changed the bit and it all went away. I really did not think it was a bit problem as he is was in a very gently bit (loose ring french link) but this Myler gave more tongue room and more support on turns via the cheek pieces; go figure. So, don't assume it isn't the bit size, configuration, or the way you have it sitting in his mouth (i.e., too high, too low).
Good luck
Lynn
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Member:
njen
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Posted on Wednesday, Oct 6, 2010 - 11:38 am:
Thanks Lynn. He is a bit of a mutt - 1/2 QH, 1/4 TB, 1/4 Percheron. He doesn't really hold his head high but more out in front of him. I must admit I don't know much about bits. I do have a Myler from a while back that I could try. I agree on the martingale - I will skip that.
Ann - forgive me for my ignorance, but when you say forward hands, can you explain that more?
Thanks everyone!
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Member:
gwenyth
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Posted on Wednesday, Oct 6, 2010 - 5:28 pm:
Jennifer. I really don't mean at all to sound rude, but your problem may lie with your statement " when I jiggle a rein to bring his head down he overcompensates and puts it towards his chest". Lynn (above) is very correct. Yes, some horses will do that when you "jiggle the rein".
In dressage, you don't "make a frame", the horse relaxes into the bit and pulls into it when he uses his hindquarters. A suggestion for you - ride one handed, don't worry about the head and where it is, just ride with both reins in one hand and try to make sure you have nearly even pressure on both reins, with perhaps slightly more on the inside. (Eventually, when the horse goes into collection, you'll have more weight into the outside rein.) Do many many many transitions - walk to trot, back to walk, or to halt, over and over and over. Give breaks in between, then do more transitions. Eventually they will get better, but it will take a hundred or more, And I mean do 3 steps walk, 5 steps trot, back again, over and over. This will not hurt him or wear him out. but it will let him come into contact with the bit on his own terms and he will begin to relax, use his hindquarters, and develop over his back.
I would recommend not using side reins, it will only "set" the head and neck into an unnatural frame.
I take dressage lessons from an OLD German man, so this has been instilled in me that you never ever "jiggle the reins".
Try the one handed and let me know how it goes. I have a 1/4 percheron, too, they can be strong and stubborn! But it sounds like your horse is very nice and will be a good one for you. Mutts are often the best horses!
Nancy
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Thursday, Oct 7, 2010 - 8:09 am:
I just wanted to say to Nancy I love your description "In dressage, you don't "make a frame", the horse relaxes into the bit and pulls into it when he uses his hindquarters."
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Member:
gwenyth
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Posted on Thursday, Oct 7, 2010 - 10:06 am:
Angie, thanks.
Jennifer is only one of many people out there who have been taught to "jiggle the bit" in dressage. We listen to so called experts, and this is what they are teaching, that you "make a frame". Even in the big dressage magazines, they talk about "massaging the bit", which is really just another term for jiggle - lol!!!
So there are many people out there jiggling, massaging, and in general "putting the horse on the bit". That's why there are so many lame dressage horses out there; they don't use their backs or bodies correctly. The DVD "If horses could speak" addresses this very problem.
I go to 1-2 recognized dressage shows a year, and what I see there makes me somewhat ill. Upper level horses that are really on the forehand, with their head behind the vertical. Jennifer knows that this is wrong, from her post above, but that's how professional dressage people often ride.
I know I am on my soapbox, lol! But it sometimes really pains me to see these horses with their heads contorted. Even at the warmup at the WEG, there was lots of this.
nancy
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Thursday, Oct 7, 2010 - 6:52 pm:
When our kids were small we used to go to local horse shows so I could show them what NOT TO DO. I was ignorant then, and I hope I know a bit more now about 20 years later, yet I never did understand Western horse "jogging" if you could call it that, nose to the ground. Reins you could jump through. I still don't know dressage like you or many others do on here, (I think dressage = high school riding = horse and rider in harmony) but I don't think many of the dressage horses look happy. It's like they are being rode with determination that "you will do this or else" and it bugs me.
BTW, I have been known to jiggle the reins too for calming down, or just a "hello" are you listening? Julie Goodnight on tv made some comments about that; she said: "Get rid of a curb chain, and snaps on reins because they jiggle also and it annoys the horse."
I thought that was interesting!
Problem is where do you get a leather strap to work on a kimberwick(i)e bit? A wider one preferably.
Jennifer,
Hope we are helping and not confusing you. We tend to get side tracked when we feel passionate about something, lol!
All the best to you and your journey.
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Member:
rtrotter
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Posted on Thursday, Oct 7, 2010 - 8:11 pm:
Angie,
Try Big Dee's for a leather chin strap, it might be under humane jaw strap or something like that. In my industry they are usually used with a Crit Davis over check. I use one with a ring on each end because it fits on upper part of the over check. But I know they have ones that would fit on a Kimberwick instead of a chain.
Rachelle
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Thursday, Oct 7, 2010 - 9:36 pm:
Rachelle,
Thanks, I see some things on their website, not sure what is what so I will give them a call.
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Member:
lynnland
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Posted on Friday, Oct 8, 2010 - 7:41 am:
Hi Gang,
Maybe a little off-topic but they do make curb chain covers and leather curb chains. I took a quick surf and found some (although this is a UK site).
https://www.thesaddleryshop.co.uk/C/Bits_Bit_Accessories-(94).aspx
Lynn
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Friday, Oct 8, 2010 - 8:00 am:
I saw a foam cover Lynn, I think it was some outrageous price though!
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Member:
njen
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Posted on Tuesday, Oct 12, 2010 - 12:19 pm:
Angie ~ I find everyone's discussion very interesting even though I'm not a dressage rider. I'm really just a pleasure rider that wants to have a good relationship with my horse. I did take some suggestions over the weekend and did not do any jiggling and really focused on keeping steady hands. He seemed much happier and at times did relax his head - nothing like positive reinforcement (for me, I mean)!
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Wednesday, Oct 13, 2010 - 7:42 am:
Jennifer,
Anyone whose main goal is "to have a good relationship with my horse" is a wonderful horse wo(man). And my mentor, may he rest in peace, would love HA and all the wonderful folks on here who question "WHY" when it comes to riding a certain way to make the horse look a certain way.
Or as many old timers like him have said in many different ways: It's not the horse who is wrong. We need to figure out how to ask in his language. Look at what we're doing and how we're doing it.
Your story reminded me of a wonderful little flea bitten grey Arab mare I tried out years ago. She would only walk with tiny mincing steps, head tucked to her chest. I asked Gordon if I could "undo that" and he just shook his head in sadness. He really hated what people did to horses under the guise of horsemanship! He said it would take lots of time and work and no guarantees.
'Nways, your horse isn't in that category! And enough of my trip down memory lane, 
Wishing you many more happy trails!
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Member:
gwenyth
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Posted on Wednesday, Oct 13, 2010 - 8:59 am:
Jennifer, that sounds great! It's what Angie says - your main goal is right on, to have a good relationship with your horse. Just keeping that foremost makes you successful!
And Angie, many (most?) dressage horses aren't too happy. Even (especially?) at the WEG, IMHO there were very few harmonious moments. The judges want to see a horse "forward" (???), so all harmony goes out the window when you're pushing all the time, grabbing the reins all the time - lol! I do feel so sorry for the horses - and they can't be "undone" any more than your flea bitten grey mare.
When I venture to go to "big" dressage shows, the judges always tell me that my training is "correct", but we always finish in the middle or low end of the class, since my horses aren't "forward" enough - and yep, they don't hand gallop when they are supposed to canter, like some of these poor horses do........they don't toss their legs out in front of them during their trot, they go quietly and calmly, and that's just not what some judges want these days. And then every once in awhile, I'll get a great score from a judge who recognizes what we do together.
I always thought that good dressage was very akin to natural horsemanship - give the horse the option of doing it right by setting everything up for the horse to succeed, and when it goes well, give with the reins for the reward. Maybe dressage is so screwed up now, since riders no longer know how to ask the horse properly, how to build their musculature, and how to reward. It's a shame.
nancy
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Member:
npo33901
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Posted on Thursday, Oct 14, 2010 - 4:41 am:
Nancy, spot on !!
It hurts to watch manny top horses under these riders.
These "riders" may know but it takes too long to train a horse the classical/correct way.
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Thursday, Oct 14, 2010 - 7:44 am:
I went over to YouTube and found a short version of "If horses Could Speak." Which led me to watching more rollcur(sp?)videos along with one of some blond woman bragging (IMO) about her method. I felt sick.
I think I am a gentle rider, yet after watching those vids I sure do wonder how often I get in a horses way hurting his muscles, or how often I put a horses tongue or bars in pain?
And I remember being told we vibrated a rein, did vibrating a rein turn into jiggling which is now pulling the horse into frame?!
I seem to have forgotten the greatest words of wisdom my mentor told me:
ALWAYS ASK WHY.
Why is someone telling you to do that to/with your horse? Why is someone saying you need that bit, or that martingale? Question everything any "expert" about horses tells you, and if they can't answer "WHY" then forget it. Even question me, lol!
Jennifer, I bet you didn't think you'd be starting such a thought provoking discussion, aye?
Horsemanship = Harmony Between Horse & Rider
Dressage = Horsemanship at a Higher level
If you loose the harmony, it's NOT dressage, and it's NOT horsemanship.
A horse in pain, being forced into frame cannot be in harmony.
IMHO.
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Member:
gwenyth
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Posted on Thursday, Oct 14, 2010 - 10:39 am:
Angie, so true. It just ain't harmony.
I've been a member of USDF for about 20 years, and dressage has changed mightily during that time, my instructor says that it gives him "indigestion".
As long as $$ is involved with horses, and it always will be, at one level or the other, (in ANY horse sport), then the horse is the loser. I admit I have made mistakes myself in the past, and I try not to make any more.
I am always being told - "for a dressage rider, you sure are different. You love your horses, you turn them out, they stand quietly, they grow winter coats" . Isn't that just a SHAME!!!????
Nancy
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Member:
rtrotter
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Posted on Friday, Oct 15, 2010 - 5:13 pm:
Nancy,
You just cracked me up, I get this all the time and I have racehorses. They don't wear blankets, they are turned out just about all the time, together. I have weird shoeing beliefs, I love my horses and of course I do not know what I am doing. Meanwhile, my horses don't get sick, their feet are in excellent condition, my mare is racing the best she has in a long while, she doesn't have any breathing problems, tying up problems or lameness problems. She's happy and healthy and gets treated like a horse instead of a person. When she's happy, I'm happy.
Gee, that's the way I thought it was supposed to be.
Take care
Rachelle
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