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Discussion on Drastic change in behavior/personality?!
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New Member:
cruces
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 10, 2010 - 11:52 am:
my 4 yr-old mare , who i have had for 3 years and put under saddle about 16 months ago, has seemingly become a possessed imitation of her former self. She had been so incredibly easy to train, so willing, and so level-headed. Suddenly, in the past 10 weeks or so (but perhaps it stared a bit earlier , when she pulled back so hard when she saw the saddle coming near her ...she broke the rope!)
She was standing still for mounting, though we had to work through that for a while; suddenly she has reversed it and i am at risk to mount her if i am alone. (if someone else is around and stands at he head, she will stand)
She is extremely mellow and gentle being led, loading, grooming, etc.
BUT when the saddle comes out of the tack room she starts nipping at me; she nips the air in front of her with every pull i make on her cinch, even when it is VERY loose yet; 2 days ago she nipped my shoulder sleeve as i bent in front of her, after her saddle was on. yesterday AFTER a ride i was loving on her and cradling her head with both hands, she went right along my ear to nip again! This is my "reliable" ride....?!( the other is my Arab.lol)
she was limping 2 months ago, very slightly and suddenly, then stopped; limped again a month or so ago, yet i saw no limping yesterday when i took her out, or the day before. (Actually, the day before, with a whole lot of focus on her gait while under saddle, not leading her, with 2 sets of eyes we could discern a very minor hitch in her step on the front right leg...then it stopped too. we wondered if we had imagined it because we wanted so badly to find a physical cause to her personality change)
i searched the site and found a lot about "defiance" in horses her age, and wonder if she has rebelled because i have upped her training to compete on trail rides. we had a major disagreement about backing under saddle just a few weeks ago, the last time i had no mounting issues with her, and saw her as her "normal" self. i wonder if that was her "last straw" in expecting too much from her too fast and soon.....?
any insight out there?
thanks!
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Member:
lynnland
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 10, 2010 - 1:21 pm:
Hi,
Just a quick thought. Is the saddle fit correct for this horse? In my experience, nipping is not unusual in a young horse if it is getting impatient or when tightening the girth/cinch but your description of her behaviour when saddling is a bit extreme. I would suggest that something, somewhere might be causing pain when she is under-saddle. If you don't find anything, I would try backing off the training and doing something that you know she enjoys to keep her fit like easy shorter trail rides with some other horses?
Good luck
Lynn
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Member:
lhenning
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 10, 2010 - 3:05 pm:
Hi K J,
Welcome to HA!
First thing, I would do as others say and check for pain issues.
I had similar problems with my young horse. It turned out I had skipped too quickly through the sacking out process when he was younger. I had to step back and re-introduce the saddle and blanket as if he had never seen them before.
Then I had to really think about how I was cinching him. I was very new to horses and did not know much. I was cinching him too tight, and trying to get it tight right away. It helped to cinch a little, walk away, then come back and cinch a little more. Does your horse pin his ears when you pull the cinch? Mine did and that was my clue.
He would also try to bite me if I ducked under his head to work on the other side. Even if I corrected him one day, he would do it again the next. So I stopped doing that and started walking around behind him. Basically, I ended up changing our whole saddling procedure and it helped us find a new beginning.
Biting in itself is a respectfulness issue so I also did a lot of training for that. You would notice this in other areas of riding and leading. If the other ideas don't help, then perhaps this is the problem and you have more to work on than saddling.
Good luck,
Linda
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 10, 2010 - 6:05 pm:
Had a horse here with quite similar actions, the girl got quite frustrated as to what to do. If you are sure it isn't a pain issue, approach and retreat works wonderfully for this type of behavior.
This is what I did with her horse. Started with the blanket, (always keep your elbow towards their head so that is what they meet if they swing around to bite) Her ears would also pin and she would act threatening. Put the blanket on, took the blanket off at first I repeated this MANY times, from both sides. The first time she didn't swing to nip she got a reward. The key here is not to stop the first time you get the ans. you want, bore them (and yourself) to tears with the blanket off and on. Good job, good girl, put her away! Go back in an hour or two and do the same thing, every time will be shorter.
Once you got a happy horse putting the blanket on, get the saddle, same process... put her away a happy horse, don't cinch her up or ride.
Next process cinching, this can be a little more time consuming, but worth the effort.
Pull the cinch until you are ABOUT to get the ugly face uncinch, do it again, once you have her cinched lightly without a reaction reward and put her away. Repeat Repeat repeat, until the ugly faces disappear and they will, it's a matter of patience. Do not even acknowledge the attempt to nip or the ugly faces keep your elbow in place just in case) just go about your business.
Mares
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New Member:
cruces
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 10, 2010 - 9:03 pm:
again, thanks for all the suggestions!
i am not certain at all that is is NOT a pain issue. we have an appointment with a horse chiropractor on Saturday, see if she can rule in
(or out!) anything. quite honestly, i don't know how to really go about finding a non-obvious source of pain in a horse. any ideas on that one?
as to cinching her- i am always slow and it is never even tight enough on a ride. go figure- it is always rolling and loose after we get started and yet again later on. it could easily be an improper fit for her, as i use it also on my Arab. yet unless it's pinching her if/when it rolls, i know for certain it isn't too tight. Then when i do tighten it after we have started out, she doesns't get nippy on the trail. i have to say that the most interesting aspect of all of this is, perhaps, that once we get started, until we are untacked, her attitude seems just as fine and reliable as it always has been...?
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 10, 2010 - 10:18 pm:
Kj in your first post above you said she has started moving off when you get on and someone has to hold her. You also stated you had a major disagreement about backing. So it would seem she has some other issues showing up. Have you tried a different saddle. Maybe even having a trainer evaluate her would help, sometimes an experienced eye can pick something out that we are doing wrong or even pain issues.
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Member:
lilo
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Posted on Thursday, Nov 11, 2010 - 10:24 am:
Hi KJ,
I have a mare also. What I have noticed with her is that she nips at the air to tell me when something hurts her.
She is 24 now, and heat cycles do not seem to be a big issue anymore. When she was younger, there were times when she would nip when I groomed her flanks. That may have been related to her heat cycle (she was never very obvious, so it was hard to tell).
Now she will do it sometimes when I groom her chest and it is very matted. I have to be super gentle in that area.
So - bottom line, I think you are right to try and figure out if it is a pain issue, as others have suggested.
Now, my gelding sometimes bends his head around when I mount and tries to bite my stirrup - that is definitely defiance, not pain. He would rather lounge around than be ridden, is what he is telling me.
Lilo
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Thursday, Nov 11, 2010 - 11:23 am:
Ill-fitting saddle and pain issues certainly would be my first thought here.
Also, check the teeth. Sometimes a left-over wolf tooth could cause a problem.
Eating certain toxic plants (Fitweed, AKA Corydalis, for example) will cause horses to snap at the air but would not imagine that would apply to an ingrained behavior pattern.
Ingesting some toxic plants may also cause permanent personality and neurological changes.
While unlikely in most cases, this is something to be aware of.
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Friday, Nov 12, 2010 - 12:17 pm:
Hi, K J,
I have been out of the town and just got back so I am catching up here.
As I read through your first post, 2 words came to mind: THINK and WHY
Why from my late mentor, and think from HIS mentor, John Richard Young.
I also got a very passionate email from former HA member Erika and we are both thinking the same thing here! Find out where this horse is in pain.
WHY is she reacting differently?
THINK back on everything that you've done in her training(Not to place blame but just to think through the horses eyes!), and any incident no matter how trivial appearing.
Did the pulling back scare her and hurt her?
Is she limping because her neck and shoulder area is sore from the pulling back?
Remember this is a large animal. A hurt area any place on her body results in compensation in another area.
As you read around on here you find I am very passionate about barefoot hoof care. With that in mind, check this horse over from hoof to withers, and hoof to hip. I have a gelding who suffered a shoulder injury 7 years ago, his feet in front adjusted to that injury because he weighted the good side more to rest the sore side.
Sounds like a little thing, but it's not little for a 1000 pound animal.
I have a 22 year old Arab mare who will pin her ears and nip at me, or buck if she is in pain. Sometimes I know why she's hurting, some times I give her time off and it resolves itself.
My advice is leave the saddle out of sight for now. Groom and massage and watch her reaction. The last thing you want it to push on with her training and have pain associated with you and saddles at such a young age.
I don't know if Jim Masterson has any thing on You-Tube but his Equine Massage DVD is excellent if you can find an example on it. Soft, feather like touch head to to beside the spine. If she blinks, slowly increase pressure and work that area. Look for sighing, snorting, lips quivering, and keep working the area. Trust your instincts what to do, and then walk away and watch her.
Do the same to her shoulders and chest muscles. Let her know you are there for her, and understand something is hurting her. I think you said you had a chiropracter coming out? S/he should know about massage too, and be able to give you some guidelines.
Been there, done that with not recognizing pain in a horse. Very few horses are born "defiant" but too many are made that way because we don't understand what is causing the behavior.
Sorry to go off on a rant! Stay safe, a hurting horse is a dangerous horse.
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Member:
cgby1
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Posted on Friday, Nov 12, 2010 - 8:52 pm:
Hi KJ,
I also feel that this is pain related to the saddle. Years ago a woman I knew had a mare that tried to attack her because of a badly fitting saddle. The mare was pretty much ruined after spending 6 hours under saddle the previous day. I would highly recommend that you have a professional saddle fitter check your mare and saddle. She ended up getting rid of that mare! Saddles can bridge a horses back which is what happened to that mare.
Cynthia
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