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Discussion on Dancing in the Picadero- Hempfling's Methods
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 26, 2011 - 8:32 am:
I have just read Hempling's newest book, "It's Not I Who Seek the Horse, The Horse Seeks Me." I've also been reviewing his other book, "Dancing with Horses."
I was wondering if any one has ever put into practice his concepts of working in what he calls the "Picadero" which is a 36' square arena.
I am considering taking apart my round pen (once the ground thaws!!) and doing this size arena instead. I have a 80 x 120 arena also.
His arguments for why the round pen isn't a good idea, and why this size square are good make sense.
Anyone?
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Member:
lilo
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 26, 2011 - 9:40 am:
Angie - I read his book, "Dancing with Horses" quite a while ago. He is amazing (one can see him on youtube also). I forget now what his arguments were for the square arena, just remember how impressed I was with his approach.
I often wonder if a lot of the successes of horse trainers are directly correlated with the time they spend with their horses. I mean - a lot of them do really nothing else except spend time with different horses, riding different horses, reading the body language of different horses and perfecting their own body language. No wonder Pat Parelli and Linde spend the winters in Florida and the summers in Colorado .....
That does not take away from their accomplishments - just makes me envious.
I would be interested in hearing whether this works for you, Angie.
Lilo
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 26, 2011 - 10:57 am:
He is amazing on Youtube, isn't he?
He latest book is very different. Different compared to any horse training book out there IMO. More about his philosophy, and about inner strength I guess. I will have to reread it before I attempt anything new! If I had to sum it up I would say it's all about us being the leader and the horse knowing it?
Hempfling don't have much good to say about round pens. And part of the idea behind this small square is that the horse works with his hind legs under more also.
Of course my thinking is I can do more with Tango, and he won't have so far to run if he bolts, lol!!
Winter is such a nice time to read and dream about summer's riding goals.
I might be able to rope something off before spring thaw even...so I'll update when I do something.
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Member:
lilo
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 26, 2011 - 3:16 pm:
Thanks, Angie. Will be looking for updates. Lilo
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 26, 2011 - 8:48 pm:
Interesting I will have to look this guy up, how does a square make a horse work off his hind end more? Don't they still go in a circle?? Any square arena I have seen has a round track going around it.
OR is it the size that matters LOL.
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Member:
npo33901
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 27, 2011 - 10:21 am:
Angie, why don't you just rope off a square in your old arena ?! It should do the job .
I am going to do the same - once I'll start training. My reason for it is - one, I've heard other trainers doing it,
two, it is smaller , less running for me and restrict the horse more.
Horse working off his hinds more ?? don't understand also.
Hempfling is fantastic - he just got something in his soul .
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 27, 2011 - 10:53 am:
Let me get a chance to review what I read and give an update here. I can picture some pictures but have to reread it. Something about the horse not actually making a circle in the square vs the round pen for one thing.
I have actually thought about just roping off an area for starters and probably will since I can most likely do that without waiting for the ground to thaw to move fence posts!
Interestingly enough, I watched something I had recorded from TV and this guy was also referring to working from I THINK 15 meters down to 10 meters. Hemplings square is 11 meters.
Hubby told me NO MORE BOOKS!! If another box that says Amazon on it, and especially if it's a (bad word here) HORSE BOOK, shows up here, I am toast!
So I hope others order books and open up discussions since my time doing that is now over..sob!!
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Member:
juliem
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 27, 2011 - 2:15 pm:
I think round pens are WAY over used! Too many unskilled people found they could just run a horse to exhaustion and then they could get submission. I don't use one to start my youngsters and especially not to get started with a weanling that hasn't been handled. A round pen encourages a horse to just keep running mindlessly while the corners cause them to slow down or turn and that gets them thinking instead of reacting. I use a square or rectangle pen about this size. I think that constant circling is hard on young joints and foot structures, which both my vet and guru farrier agree on. Even skilled trainers rely too much on the round pen IMO.
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Member:
lhenning
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 27, 2011 - 2:18 pm:
I haven't read anything by Hempling so it's hard for me to understand why a square would be better than a circle. It seems to me what you are doing in the square or circle is more important than the shape.
For what it's worth, back when I first began training Cutter we worked in a sort-of round pen. It was round except on one end where there was a corner at the gate. Cutter would always run to that corner and it was hard to keep him moving through it, so he was rewarded often for doing it. Now perhaps you won't be using a lunge whip and making your horse run in circles such as one does in a round pen, but if you were I would think the horse would find those corners as nice little resting spots.
Now if you are riding the horse in the square, that sounds like a good way to get them really into those corners and bending, but you could do that in a rectangle arena so I still scratch my head on the square concept. I'd be interested to hear the theory behind this.
I have seen numerous clinicians and trainers that poo poo each other's ideas just to get us to accept theirs as best. In my personal experience, I've used many different ideas and put them together to make a training program that works for my horse and me. I try different ideas and keep the ones that work, throw away the ones that don't. My program might not work the same for you or someone else but the same concept will.
You have had great success already, so in my opinion don't throw away what has worked in the past, build on it. There is no one magic trainer or teacher that will make it all happen, so I guess in this case I have to agree with your husband. (Yikes, don't tell him I said that!!)
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Member:
gramsey1
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 27, 2011 - 2:42 pm:
I agree with Julie. I have seen people chasing their horses round and round without intent.
This is misuse of the training aid. The advantage of the round pen is no corners. So, the horse needs to focus on you. There is, for the horse, no point in focusing on the wall for escape from pressure. Release comes from the trainer.
Hempling's approach is all about choice, the horse chooses. The corners give another choice. But, one I find potentially dangerous.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 27, 2011 - 5:39 pm:
Tools are very helpful, and not chasing a horse mindlessly around is not good (usually) either, tho I got to admit I have been guilty of letting them RUN to blow off steam then the brain kicks in, but don't you think no matter the technique it boils down to pressure and release and most importantly the timing of it all, whether it be in a square or round pen?
I have to agree with Guy, if you put a little pressure on the wrong horse that got "stuck" in a corner and the timing of your pressure and release was a bit off, there is potential for a train wreck... have seen it more than once. Just like if the "herd" cornered a horse.. you've all seen that fiasco, over or stuck in the fence they go Round pens give you a bit more forgiveness, just in case you don't have your timing right, or a panicy type horse...JMHO
Angie I can't believe you don't hide that stuff from DH LOL. OH honey I borrowed it from someone No hidey hole???
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Member:
juliem
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 27, 2011 - 7:09 pm:
Absolutely right Diane and Guy! If the person in the square pen doesn't have a great sense of timing and "feel" they shouldn't be using a square pen. Knowing when to ease up on the pressure and how to turn and reverse the horse while staying safe are minimum requirements. I think it's best to develop a sense of timing and feel anyone attempts training in any pen!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 27, 2011 - 7:50 pm:
Julie, I wouldn't hesitate to put Hank in a small square pen at this point, but then again I don't know why I would, He does what I ask at liberty in the oval arena, I don't quite get the difference. Once we started refinement I could get him to work from his backend (if his hooves didn't hurt!) in the arena
As an aside when I started Bonesy at liberty he was a FREAK. I have absolutely no doubt had he had the option to get stuck in a corner he would have been right over or through the fence! NO doubt what so ever! I thought he was going to go over the round arena fence!
We have to learn our timing and feel for every horse and they have to start somewhere. I did get Bonesy pretty good at liberty, he didn't have the "refinement' Hank had yet, but he listened, and I still think if he was in a square pen at that point the corners would have been a disaster, I actually think it would have paniced him even with good timing... this is where the "feel" comes in, he was a completely different animal then Hank. Hank is not a panicy horse, Bonsey most definitely was.
I have not read Hempfling's yet, but I will, I could be missing something.
Timing is usually close to the same for most horses...but feel is NOT, again IMHO}
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Friday, Jan 28, 2011 - 12:07 am:
AH, Diane, hubby got the mail the day my last book order came!!
I agree with round pens being over used, and not being a training tool but rather a "work the horse til he settles" tool. I have noticed many times that if I start in there, I am missing my straight sides and corners, so I have to get off, open gates, go to the arena; so I have been questioning why I have a round pen? I don't think a horse pays as much attention to me in there either vs a small square or rectangle. Which I had years ago when I started 3 colts over a 2 year period.
I have to give this some thought, but I think a horse pays more attention with corners rather than in a round pen! Maybe more so riding but I think I can make more use with a straight fence line, and a corner, than a round circle!
NO LINDA...NO...I will not tell hubby what you said, lol!!!
What Hempling's latest book tries to convey is a more holistic philosophical way of being with your horse. Yes, there are specifics, but it's not about square penning vs round penning for lack of a better way of putting it. I don't get the impression he puts on a show, like Parelli style, or getting respect, say like Clinton Anderson. What I got from this so far was the last thing we should be discussing is round vs square! I think he makes a connection with horses within minutes and he don't even need an enclosed area. The horse wants to be with him, accepts him as leader, and acts with pride. Maybe like join up?
I hope someone else splurges and reads the book; it's different. I can't explain it. Inner peace, inner strength that the horse understands and respects? 110% confidence.
I personally find it rather intriguing. Maybe I am just ready for something different. I keep thinking horses know how to move, how to stop, and they can do all kinds of fancy things just fine. And I am not sure I believe in round pens, or endless repetition of any thing any more.
Maybe a 11 meter Picadero means something to the horse? A magically distance between human & horse when the person is on the ground? Not too far, not too close?
Diane from your description in your last post, I think you do alot of what this guy does! And if you had to work with Bonesy again, you'd do it different if you "got" what Hempling is trying to convey. I know those types that panic in the corner & go over fences, don't take much more than you breathing too hard! But, as Hempling says, those kind are his favorites, the sensitive ones.
So many books to read, so little time,
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Jan 28, 2011 - 7:53 am:
LOL I do like those kinds too I had a round pen when Hank was first broke out, I think I used it 10 times, I never did like it, it seemed to "confining" and really doesn't give the horse any option other than to run mindlessly given the right conditions.
I like my arena, it gives them the option to "run off" and get away from the scary human or pressure as we call it, then I get to try to get their attention back on me. Whether it be a round, or square pen small or little, it does come down to timing and feel.
I don't think I could have done much different with Bonesy other than have spent more time teaching him about pressure and release, before I let him go. I do know if I had put any pressure on him when he was paniced he would have jumped out or at least tried, I obviously didn't have the leadership role down with him at that time, he was a tough cookie LOL. After a week we had it down pretty good, but like I said they have to start somewhere. Bonesy was always bottom of the pecking order even at Sue's I think that played a role in his confidence level, and his panicy type reactions.
Hank is boss and once you get the leadership role with him (which is a challenge also) he is a piece of cake, he will test once in awhile..just to make sure I am serious about it. His personality in a way is harder to work with.
The hempling guy sounds talented, but they all are, they have done this stuff for ages with all types of horses. Parelli or Anderson ect. Would have no problems in a small square also. I just think for us novices round is better in most cases, but it always fun to try something different
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Member:
lilo
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Posted on Friday, Jan 28, 2011 - 10:26 am:
It all depends! What I mean is, how you use the round pen or square pen, or how you lunge a horse. I hear the Parelli's talking about lunging and how that is just "mindless" circles. It can be, unless you use it to teach your horse. Teach him voice commands, teach him transitions, change the direction often.
That said, I never learned to use the round pen and probably would not be very good at it unless I worked with a trainer. But I have seen it used by accomplished trainers very effectively.
I am getting intrigued with Hempfling's latest book - maybe the library has it?
Lilo
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New Member:
reubenr
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Posted on Friday, Jan 28, 2011 - 11:58 am:
All this talk about "mindless" circles seems stupid. All of the top professional trainers, highly recommend starting young horses in a round pen. I personally have started over a hundred colts and unbroke or green horses in the round pen and I didn't do anything "mindless." There was a purppose in everything I did. Take a look at Clinton Andeerson.
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Member:
lhenning
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Posted on Friday, Jan 28, 2011 - 11:59 am:
Lilo, I so agree with you. You can be effective in a round pen or lunge line, or not. It's about technique and understanding the horses body language.
My understanding of a round pen is that it is used best in the early stages of training and not to just run a horse around in circles. I have used the same concepts in numerous situations that had nothing to do with a round pen. Like Diane says, pressure and release.
Angie, what I wonder is why you want to go a different direction than what you have already found successful? I mean, you RODE Tango last year! You did so well, why not repeat what worked? I bet it will go faster this year and you will be riding sooner, and wouldn't that give you the opportunity to teach Tango some new things before the season ends?
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Friday, Jan 28, 2011 - 2:34 pm:
Guys, you are all missing the point here! And I am sure that is because I can't put into words what I am going with here.
Let me give you my personal example, one that I bet any one who has started some horses can relate to:
First horse, little stud colt, I am about 12 years old. Keep jumping on him, laying all over him, BAREBACK, and then rode him. Same pattern a a few more young ones, only advance to owning a saddle. Knew enough to use a snaffle first, not sure why.
Advanced to working my next couple on the lunge line to introduce saddle, voice commands, body language.
Next ground driving in addition to lunging.
Then about 15 years of KIDS, 2 legged ones, and then back to horses. NOW comes the clinicians with their methods, the round pen, join up, more fine tuning of body language, and of ground driving.
In between that I went from snaffle bits, to bits that took 4 reins, (didn't use them too well!) martingales, all kinds of gadgets.
Back to mostly snaffle bits now.
I am obviously older (much older, lol!) have more patience, and a better understanding of many things equine.
BUT, Linda...success with Tango? YES, BUT again...he's going to be 9 years old in May, just saw that on the tack room calendar. Is success riding a horse I've owned for almost 8 years and I just rode him last year???
It's not my methods in the round pen lacking. We do that just fine thank you. We ground drive just fine. And yes, we've had some good rides too finally, all in the arena or round pen, but rides just the same.
But no way in hades do I want to even think about starting again in the round pen! Nor do I want to just get on and ride him, not enough life insurance on me for that!
O.k., Tango is a special or warped character, depending on your point of view. I am NOT afraid of him. Cautious yes, I'd be an idiot not be cautious with him or any horse.
And could someone cowboy him and get the yahoo out of him? Sure. I've had offers in fact from guys wanting to do that. It don't seem right to me, not with this horse.
Something is missing. It's something inside of me that he is picking up on. Tango is friendly, willing, and he loves to go! I can see us going miles and miles and he won't once ask to go home; once we get to that point.
Right now this Hempling dude seems to speak to me and is offering something that I hope I can add to what I know already.
Maybe another way of saying it would be think of the last time you were riding in the "zone." It was probably a short lived experience before you started thinking again about where your legs were supposed to be, what your hands were doing, if you were breathing correctly, and you started watching your horses ears; need I go on?
I want my relationships with all my horses to advance to something; I dunno; beyond the round pen or even the square pen.
But if that means starting in a specific square sized arena, o.k., what have I got to lose? I won't UN-DO what I've done so far. And it may just build up the horses' bodies in a good way too working freely. That's part of it.
And this guy with the funny name has some ideas about body language that is helpful. And about our posture, and some things that sound a bit woo woo! So what!
I think I found an area that I can rope off for my Picadero! Just need to read more and study more, then when warm weather finally arrives. IF it ever arrives!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Jan 28, 2011 - 2:36 pm:
Reuben you are right, the round pen in the "right hands" is very good for starting horses. Hank was started in a round pen and I have seem 100's of horses started this way. I am talking about after you "graduate" from the round pen.
I think the "mindless running" comments stem from novices running a horse round and round with no concept of pressure and release and working on that stuff. I like mine to have a "mindless run" once in awhile I think it is good for them I don't force it but if they want to YAHOO, go ahead Seems to settle them and get them ready to think IMHO.
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Member:
juliem
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Posted on Friday, Jan 28, 2011 - 3:01 pm:
Rueben, personally, I resent your characterization of this discussion as "stupid." It's an exchange of ideas and perhaps a chance for someone with an open mind to learn something. I suppose the whole idea of "ground work" would have been considered "stupid" a hundred years ago. I like to think we've moved beyond that in our work with and understanding of horses.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Friday, Jan 28, 2011 - 4:10 pm:
Angie that is what I'm trying to say Round pen, square pen, what does it really matter.. it is what it is LOL. You are right you have to reach inside yourself to figure out Tango, OR maybe you are trying too hard to figure him out. Horses for the most part are pretty simple. Just like trimming hooves, less is more.
I may be wrong, but in some of your posts about Tango I pick up a little fear back in your head rattling around somewhere. I also know exactly what it is like to try to overcome that fear, little as it is/was. It was enough to interfere with hank's and my relationship. He had good ground manners, ect. On the ground you couldn't ask for a better horse. Soon as my butt hit that saddle he knew my confidence DrOpped just a notch and that is all it took. I rode a little stiff, i grabbed the reins when I shouldn't. I didn't trust him or GIVE HIM the opportunity to do the right thing.. Had to fix HIM first LOL. That trainer guy told me years ago to give him the choice to do the right thing before correcting (which was really my fear) I couldn't deal with that concept, because Hank wouldn't do the right thing given the choice in my mind, and I had never had problems with green horses before, everybody thought I was an awesome rider. Hank taught me I had no idea what I was doing. At this point I thank him, but it was a very frustrating challenge, and I had to look to myself for our problems. I was not "soft" enough for him. I had to develop a feel for what was going on in his head, I had to look at HIS point of view.
I am not saying this is your problem, but what I went through with the "special" one
Hank is 13 Just in the last 2 years have I been able to ride him and know he wasn't going to kill me. I had to really change the whole agenda with him from what I was used to. I can still get the fear of God put in me by that boy, but now know how to deal with that. All these trainers and clinicians have something to offer, but not every horse fits in to the same program. Pick and choose what works for you.
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Member:
npo33901
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 29, 2011 - 6:29 am:
Carolyn Resnic uses both rectangular/nearing square pen and round pen. If she is teaching something new/difficult - the takes the horse to round pen . Rectangular pen gives the horse posiblity to escape the pressure .
Prof Beery (old trainer now dead) used square pen .
I think the design of the pen is not that important......Just shouldn't be too big . It is the skill and feel and experience of the person which is important, what makes the difference. - I wish I had that.-
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Member:
npo33901
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 29, 2011 - 6:31 am:
Just came across of BRENT GRAEF .
Another one with talent and feel........
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 29, 2011 - 10:33 am:
Well, Diane, at least there is something rattling around in my head, lol! Sure, I feel a brief flash of fear, "OH ****" if any horse does a major spook. And with this special one, if things don't feel right, I won't get on him. He's taught me soo much about myself, and my skills. Or what was lacking in my skills.
And I will admit I did order this book thinking mostly of Tango. I just know we are on the brink of a major break through! It's like it's sooo close, whatever "IT" is, and I want IT to happen!
More work in the round pen isn't the answer. The arena has it's place, I love doing things in there but love more leaving it to ride out in the woods.
I think the purpose of a smaller square pen for me anyhow, will be to work on fine tuning body language. Making our connection stronger. Hempling does so much with body language and what he projects from within himself. I think what he is saying is we all do WAAAAAY to much. When one horse flicks an ear back, another horse probably picks up on that. They can feel a fly land on them.
He talks about how to stand, walk, where your eyes are looking depending on where you are in relationship to the horses body. He takes his horses on walks like he has all day, not a care in the world.
We think ride, and drill, and repeat things over and over in the arena, looking for perfection. I know I get bored with that, and I bet the horses do too!
Cannot we not dance with our horses in a much simpler way? I have in my mind a rider doing passage (Sp?) with loose reins, or no reins. Or who was it that could trot his horse backwards?
I'll try to make time to go through this book again, and give myself the assignment of doing a brief book review so I can type a summary.
Spring, hurry up!!!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 29, 2011 - 10:54 am:
Less is more LOL thanks for the giggle about the head rattling, let us know how it works out. Spring is only 4 mos away!
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 29, 2011 - 11:14 am:
https://www.the-horse-seeks-me.com/rezensionen/
Here's a link to some reviews that give a better summary than I could. Just reading through that will give you an idea of how tough it is to put into words what Hempfling methods are about.
I am NOT waiting 4 months to play with my horses again!!!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 29, 2011 - 12:43 pm:
OK so I watched a few of his video's on you tube, very good, but I really don't see much of a difference in his approach vs, other well known trainers??
4 mos. YUP
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Member:
gramsey1
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 29, 2011 - 6:36 pm:
I observed an unfair characterization in the SOS -soul killing training video. Monty Roberts told that he got the idea for pressure and release and Join-up by observing wild adolescent horses being reprimanded by a lead mare. She chased the offending youngsters out of the heard. When the youngsters offered signs of proper submission, licking - chewing, lowered heads, they were permitted back into the herd.
He observed that this chase was always short, and conjectured this was due to potential danger from predators. Never, did he suggest or recommend predatory behavior and non-violience was always his gospel.
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Member:
lilo
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Posted on Saturday, Jan 29, 2011 - 7:21 pm:
I am on the waiting list at the library for Hempfling's latest book!
Guy - I read the book by Monty Roberts but I don't know what you are referring to when you talk about the SOS - soul killing training video.
Lilo
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Member:
gramsey1
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 30, 2011 - 7:50 am:
The SOS - Soul killing training Video is one of the Youtube videos that can be reached through Hempfling's site. I think he and Monty would agree on the premise of the video, that chasing a horse in a round pen can be abuse, predatory.
To see the Hempfling video, click on the link:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZsbZrly5YoY&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL
There are 36 videos in four groups, it is in the last group.
I am suggesting that this need not always be the case. Discipline is not by nature abuse.
I think the good news from Hempfling, and Roberts, is that training requires discipline, of the human leader, and the horse.
Focusing in this case on the discipline required of the human leader, is what different and seductive.
My point is this discussion was, and remains safety. Check out the Horse be Safe video in the third group.
I quote, "Change illusion into knowledge and reality, and sentimentality into carefulness and responsibility."
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Member:
lilo
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 30, 2011 - 11:29 am:
Thanks, Guy, for the clarification. I actually saw the video on youtube and thought it was against round penning? Did I get that wrong.
I have a major problem with a lot of the trainers in this day and age, and that even includes Mark Rashid from Estes Park, Colorado, in that they seem to pass judgment on other well known trainers. He was describing in one of his episodes a woman who tried to apply the Parelli principles and really was not good at it. Does that mean Parelli is all wrong in what he teaches? Diane has certainly derived benefit from his principles, and uses it with Hank at Liberty. It is so easy to be exposed to some training method and, without following up with detailed instruction, go home armed with a special halter and "carrot stick" try to apply the principles and fail.
Conversely - I think that the ever popular clinics put a lot of pressure on the trainers. There was an episode last year when Parelli tried to work with a particular difficult horse (this happened in the UK) and it did not go well at all and a lot of spectators left in disgust. He actually had to publish a lengthy apology and explanation subsequently. Yet I have a neighbor who went for a Parelli session in Pagosa Springs and derived a lot of knowledge and has a much better relationship with her younger (and sometimes difficult) horse.
Sorry for being so long-winded ...
Lilo
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 30, 2011 - 11:45 am:
Guy,
I somehow missed that video. Very good! And he shows some pictures from his book with the person being +++, meaning the human is a positive place to be.
And that video gave me an "ah ha" moment. I can see how easily I can become a predator in the round pen. No wonder Tango stays confused and unsure of my leadership! No wonder my gut says NO MORE ROUND PEN work with him.
If I were to start him, or any horse today, I think, based on Hempling's teachings, I would now NOT use a round pen for sure, and 2nd, I would be in the "driving/predator" position for about a minute only. In fact, I remember a mare I had who would race and race around the round pen, and I would just sit on the mounting stool, like in the thinker position, and wait her out. No pressure, not asking anything of her until she decided running was pretty stupid on her part and served no purpose! Then she'd come and stand by me, head down, and we'd begin work.
I think that video says so much!
We never ever want to be thought of as an enemy to our horses. A leader, a partner yes.
Some have mentioned Clinton Anderson. I have been so turned off by his methods for some time now. I wasn't sure why that was until I read this last book. I think I have said this before other discussions but A) I think his methods were the worst thing I could have done with Tango, B) I think his methods MAY have a place but ONLY with a very aggressive horse. And that is iffy, because the aggression is probably fear or pain based and that needs to be determined first.
Another thing stressed in the book is safety. Project confidence, leadership, and being grounded. Have all the patience in the world the while being totally aware of what the horse is doing to keep yourself safe.
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Member:
gramsey1
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 30, 2011 - 3:14 pm:
Angie,
Initially, I was put off by the video, because I thought it was anti-round pen. But, on reflection, I feel it decrying our human propensity to predatory behavior. It is about non violence.
Lilo,
Join-up, the term coined by Monty Roberts, a procedure that involves pressure in a round pen, is typically done once, maybe twice, early in training. It is not an exercise or drill that is part of daily interaction with the horse. It is a way of initiating dialog. I think Monty Roberts and Klaus Hempling would agree on the point.
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Member:
lilo
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 30, 2011 - 3:44 pm:
Guy - it has been a while since I read Monty Roberts but I do remember his "join up". A friend of mine has used the principle very successfully with her horse (not in a round pen, but in her rather large arena - lots of room for a horse to get away from pressure). It took a while, but finally the horse decided the best place to be was right next to my friend. Only then did she start working with him.
By the way - one of the most important principles Parelli teaches is not to act like a predator.
Lilo
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Member:
rtrotter
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 30, 2011 - 4:47 pm:
I've been monitoring this discussion since it started and I believe the answer can be found in the title of Hempfling's book. It's Not I That Seek the Horse, the Horse Seeks Me.
Because in the longrun, that's what we want, we want the horse to seek us as his/her leader, protector, friend etc. It's the connection we make with our equine partners and it really doesn't need any type of enclosure (round, square, big or little) to make that connection. We as humans feel we need these areas or our horses will run away from us and not do what we ask them to do, or because its more convenient for us to deal with them in an enclosed space. In reality though if our horses were really connected to us then they would follow us around at all times waiting for the correct signals ( from our body language)so they could do what we ask.
I learned this first from Monty Roberts, I got interested in him after the movie the Horse Whisperer came out, and in my opinion anyone that came after him is a commercialized version of what he promotes, and I've watched just about all of them in action( I am not commenting on Hempflinger here because I haven't read the book or watched the video's yet) but I would have to say just from reading the comments above that they are very similar.
I had a mare that was very hard to catch in a very large area, I learned that by not directly looking at her and keeping her moving using my body language until she turned to face me on her own that she was much easier to catch. I learned how to do that from Monty Roberts using his Join Up process, made my life and her life much easier. Over the years I added clicker training to my repetoire because I think that it makes the horses associate doing the right things much more quickly.
Interesting discussion.
Rachelle
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Member:
lhenning
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Posted on Sunday, Jan 30, 2011 - 8:06 pm:
"BUT, Linda...success with Tango? YES, BUT again...he's going to be 9 years old in May, just saw that on the tack room calendar. Is success riding a horse I've owned for almost 8 years and I just rode him last year???"
Absolutely. No doubt. Yup.
It took you eight years to find what worked. Last year, you found it. Don't diminish your success by adding up the time. It sometimes takes a lot of trying this or that to find what works, but I really believe once you get a foot in the door you must acknowledge that as progress.
I want to be very respectful and humble here, because I know you have a lot of years of experience. Yet every horse is a bit different from another one, just as people are a bit different. Some learn quickly and in a simple methodical order, others have to work through other issues before they even begin to think. If we approach each one with the same expectations, we might spend a lot of time scratching our heads and wondering why they don't all pick up the information in the same amount of time. What really matters is finding what works for each individual horse.
I don't want to imply that learning new concepts won't help in your work with Tango. I just wonder if you abandon what you were doing in favor of something different, could it set him back instead of moving him forward? Could it actually cause you to take even longer in getting him to your goals?
We always say with horses we need to take baby steps, that we need to break things down into micro pieces and work consistently toward an eventual goal. There is no time line for a horse to learn each of these steps; it takes as long as it takes. Perhaps you wish to be riding him on a trail, but you must take the steps to get Tango to do so in a safe manner. You also need to get yourself to ride him in that area with confidence. The step you started in the arena last year is just one step toward that goal. Believe in yourself and believe in him, because you will find IT when you can let go and trust him. Then and only then will he be the horse you believe he can be.
Books may help but I believe riding him often, and most importantly riding him consistently, will truly get you there.
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Monday, Jan 31, 2011 - 9:06 am:
Rachelle,
You summed it up perfectly, IMO, that we want the horse to seek us as his leader, protector, and friend. Not just the bearer of food, ha!
I just did a quick count: I have 70 books related to horses! The oldest, published in 1954: John Richard Young's Schooling of the Western Horse, the newest the one we are discussing here. And the funny part? Those 2, along with Sally Swift's Centered Riding, seem to be my favorites!
As is obvious from this discussion, we have many different viewpoints what works, what gets the best results. What is in the horses best interest.
Yet in reality, a horse is going to respond to pressure, and release of pressure the same. Some may take longer. And body language is body language. It's US that needs more work usually, not the horse! And not so much on techniques even, but our mindset too.
Linda,
Thank you. I've been giving this discussion, and what I think KFK's message is, lots of thought. I've been trying to be more aware of what my body language is saying. Instead of going out and feeding with the thought "It's so cold, hurry up, get back in" I have been more aware of everything even during those interactions.
Yesterday, I sat on Tango's stall wall and, at the risk of sounding "new age-y" I tried to empty my mind (no laughing now!) and just be "in the now." Let him come to me, which of course he did being such a friendly critter.
I "asked" telepathically, if he was interested in my being on his back. Yes, I was rubbing him, doing some TTouches, (the other new book I got) but only where I felt he was asking to be rubbed. Limited to his neck and head. I waited for him to offer his back to me.
And ended spending time on him. No halter, that's a first. Just thought about being part of him I guess. Not asking anything, he was free to move around, eat hay, look out the door.
I think that putting 100% trust in him to do the right thing will work. And as you said, letting go and believing in him and myself will lead to IT.
We'll see I guess!
At any rate, it was sure nice to be on a horse for a few minutes. Like being a kid again when I used to just lay on the horses when they ate. Back then, no worries about bills, the price of gas, the kids, etc. When are just thinking equine, it sure frees up our minds from the other clutter crap!
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Member:
lilo
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Posted on Monday, Jan 31, 2011 - 10:12 am:
Angie - I think that is why kids can often get their horses to do so much - they have no preconceived notions, they are there to have fun with their horses. Their minds are not distracted by trying to emulate a certain trainer, or what they have read in some book. They just experiment and see what works.
Just like you stated in your last paragraph.
Lilo
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Monday, Jan 31, 2011 - 12:01 pm:
I had to share this: (typing with semi-thawed fingers here)
So I am sitting on Tango's stall wall, hoping for a repeat of yesterday. He's not as receptive so I thinking it's cuz I am annoyed that my little JRT is whining, put him in the tackroom, (still can hear him) and get back on the wall. Decide to do some massage and find Tango has lots of areas just near his poll, and his withers...oh oh! (Need to review massage DVD!)
Than Tango decides to smell my frozen fingers, gets shocked, and funny guy that he is, he's now snorting and not coming back to me, not even to finish the massage! OMG, what to do with this horse?! Good Lord, so with frozen fingers and TOES, I need to end this on a good note. Just standing tall, gentle touches, and wondering what would KFH do? Oops I see I had KFK above...Hempfling, not Kempfling!
WWKFH DO, ha, ha, my new motto!
Memo to self: wear warmer boots next to do chores since I never know how long I will be out there.
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Member:
gramsey1
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Posted on Monday, Jan 31, 2011 - 3:21 pm:
Isn't their reaction to static funny. Our super sensitive Oldenberg took one shock to associate the event with blanket removal. Now blanket off gets a pinned ear, don't touch that response.
Our one neuron TB took a couple of long blue static shocks to develop an association, but he definitely holds me responsible, not the blanket.
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 1, 2011 - 8:30 am:
 "Our one neuron TB"
Maybe I will change Tango's name after all: "Two Neuron" Thanks for making me laugh!
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Member:
lilo
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 17, 2011 - 10:08 am:
Angie,
I got Hempfling's latest book from the library and just finished it.
I must say, the man is amazing. I watched a lot of his videos. I don't want to take away from his achievements, but, like all who have achieved a lot with horses, he does pass judgment on other training methods.
He is obviously very influenced by Eastern principles and that explains some of his success. When I see him move, it reminds me of an introduction to Tai Chi I once attended (all movement comes from the hips, is what I remember).
I do not think the book is easy to understand and follow. It is more a philosophy than something a person can apply, although there are places where it gets more specific, and that is useful.
I now ordered "Dancing with Horses" from Amazon.com, because he refers to it often.
I would be so interested, Angie, in hearing about your experiences with Tango, once the ground thaws and you can build your "Picadero".
In conclusion I would like to mention that I have seen many videos on youtube of Level 3 and Level 4 Parelli students working with their horses off line, that are pretty amazing. The horses seem to be happy and not forced at all. Of course, they don't work toward the collection that Hempfling achieves, because that is usually not the goal for those students.
Lilo
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 17, 2011 - 11:21 am:
Hi Lilo,
I am glad you read the book and shared your insights. I just re-read "Dancing with Horses" and got sooo much more out of it the 2nd time around. I read it years ago, and thought what a bunch of mumbo jumbo!
It explains so much more about the Picadero IMO, than his 2nd book does. Both are about his philosophy and I think the earlier book may be better with methods.
The thing about great trainers I feel is they cannot put into words or give instructions what they do since it is by feel and intuition. IMO. That is what makes it so hard, and so frustrating! And fascinating at the same time.
I think many of us want a strong bond with our horses, "To Dance with Them" but we are so caught up in the methods, the aids, the tack, that we can't FEEL what the horse is doing, or sense what the horse if feeling & thinking. I guess that is what turns me off these days about many of the clinicians, and has always turned me off when it comes to dressage in the show ring setting (sorry)
I had some insight the other day spending time with my horses and I don't know if I can remember the words of wisdom (;-)) I came up with but I'll try:
I believe for example, Tango is one very intelligent horse. I think he is waiting for me to be his leader, to figure out what we need to be a team. I know in my heart, it's not about more round pen work, more "lessons" of the same...as KFH says the horse knows how to do all the moves we are asking, he knows how to survive, and be a horse. It's our job to figure out how to be part of that. (Something like that)
And although I say I am not fearful of riding Tango, I THINK I project confidence, and leadership, the KEY IS: WHAT DOES TANGO THINK? It makes no difference what I think: What matters is what is the horse picking up from ME? He is honest, and cannot be fooled! It's black and white to him; either I've got it, or I don't have "IT" and he knows it!
How's that for philosophical thinking?? LOL!!
I also sense my mare Willow is depressed and lonely as she is the only mare. Cody is the hard one since he just "is" and accepts whatever comes his way. He is a loving sweet horse who is not appreciated for what he has to offer.
In regards to Parelli, I've learned from them yet honestly, do we need 25 DVD's to teach us to play with our horses? To ride correctly? Pat is a great showman, and he's intelligent as a business man, good for him! But talk about over kill!
I have 2 spots I can use for my Picadero, I can fence off part of the garden, or I can run 2 ropes from the corner of my arena, and gate, to the perimeter fence of my small pasture. Those areas will give me places to work before I move fence posts. Meanwhile I will keep reading and working on ME to see what I can achieve.
Let us know what you think of his earlier book after you read it?!
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Member:
lilo
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 17, 2011 - 6:44 pm:
I agree with you, Angie, about the Parelli system and how it is big business. I admire my neighbor who has taught herself a lot (she is a savvy club member). She is always willing to share her insights, and she has achieved a lot with her horses. However, her younger horse is a tough one to figure out (she does not know much about his earlier experiences - some reining training, and mostly just left standing around - she got him when the owner could not deal with horses anymore for financial reasons). But - she took him to a two week Parelli course in Pagosa Springs and has made great strides since then.
I think - just like we said in an earlier discussion - if you find a method that makes sense to you, it will be easier to apply and to make progress. I often go back to my earliest riding experiences (with German instructors) with my gelding.
I am looking forward to re-reading "Dancing with Horses".
Lilo
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Friday, Feb 18, 2011 - 9:57 am:
"When the student is ready, the teacher shall appear."
I think I have gone full circle on my training ideas, since I am back to re-reading my books that are more on the thinking/feeling than the techniques, LOL!
Of course once spring arrives and I can actually get outside and do something with the horses, it may all go out the window since it is easier to revert back to what we are comfortable with.
Stay tuned for the next chapter in the adventures of Tango's life, ha ha!
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 19, 2011 - 10:27 am:
I haven't built my Picadero yet but I did ride Tango the other day!
I started out with a good grooming, tacked him up, and we went for a walk. I led by about 8 feet, carried a dressage whip with since I was concerned about getting stepped on. Not because Tango is pushy or rude but because the ground was mud in places, slush in others, water, etc., and I thought he might "pop over" a spot that worried him. No problem what-so-ever! Better manners than my little dog, about equal to our loveable Labs manners, lol!
In the arena, I did a safety check: brief lunging at all 3 gaits on 14' line. I mean BRIEF: 2 laps walk each way, 2 laps trot, 1 lap canter. Just to check for bucking, butt scooting behavior.
Some rubbing with whip around saddle, UNDER saddle (the noise and sensation has always worried him) just had him tighten up a bit.
So I stood on my mounting log, and asked him to stand for me to get on...he did need some massage done near his poll first. Seems to have a lot of issues there, so worked on that before he offered to stand correctly for me to get on.
And off we went! GREAT RIDE! I didn't ask for much, he just walked where he wanted at first to the left. Then he chose his scary direction, right, and he was fine. Snorting and chewing, a bit of silliness perhaps seeing our shadow. Clear sky with the sun blasting on WHITE SNOW!! He was probably sleepy from the warmth, I know I was. My biggest fear was thinking he would roll cuz he was thinking about it.
'Nways, maybe this will be a start to riding Tango successfully every time and we are on a new path. Most likely he will challenge me more than a few times yet!
I tried to take on a calm, new way of leadership. (Not that I don't think I was doing that before, but...)Maybe I've become more "Eastern" and more centered. Maybe I've bored this poor horse to tears with my previous attempts and he's decided to just not react any more since this human is apparently never going to figure it out, lol!
I still plan on setting up the Picadero since I am still interested in what the size of that may accomplish. Just waiting for the ground to thaw so I can move fence posts.
Me very happy!
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Member:
lilo
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 19, 2011 - 7:50 pm:
Angie,
Great news!
I have now re-read "Dancing with Horses". I am especially focusing on the leading (I have always felt safer on the horse than on the ground, when away from home and horse is excited).
Many happy rides!
Lilo
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