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  Discussion on TB Gelding bucking, is there hope?
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Member:
ptownevt

Posted on Monday, Jan 31, 2011 - 3:58 pm:

My daughter's TB gelding has a spooking/bucking problem. He has always had a big spook and buck. They have worked regularly with an excellent dressage trainer and the two of them have come so far it's hard to believe. They are really lovely together. They have achieved 3 very nice gaits and are working on leg yields and shoulders in. Unfortunately the bucking has gotten worse. We are heartbroken, probably more me than my daughter. I cannot let my daughter continue with him if we can't get this bucking under control. I have a vet visit scheduled for Friday, Feb. 11 to check him out for any potential physical causes. We have had the saddle adjusted and checked twice in the past year. It is supposed to be perfect. The bucking seems to come more frequently once she has asked him to canter. It is like he gets really excited. He has a history of bucking that goes back for the 3 years we know about. I had Anna start every riding session with a short ground work session to establish the working relationship. This worked very well in the beginning, but it seems that once cold weather hit he was off to the races, no pun intended. He has now bucked almost every time she has ridden him for the past month. She rides at least 4 days a week, often 5. He is now very fit and balanced which seems to be having the effect of making the bucks bigger and harder. He does pull up relatively easily and Anna sticks "like a tick" but I have taken her for xrays twice in the past year.
I guess I just want someone to share a story where they were able to get through this type of problem. We struggle financially to support 3 old/unsound horses. This horse is only 15 years old. My daughter's trainer has a couple of very nice horses trained through PSG that she can ride, but our hearts are with this big goof. So, how about it? Has anyone succeeded with this kind of a problem?
Member:
lhenning

Posted on Monday, Jan 31, 2011 - 4:26 pm:

First thing I would have him checked physically, but I see you are doing that. Many times these problems stem from pain issues.

I don't have any good answers for you but some questions come to mind. Does he do this every time she asks for canter? Does he do it on a lunge line? If excitement seems like the problem, has your daughter tried to collect him and ask softly so his excitement level stays down? What is his reaction then? How does she handle him just prior to bucking? Can she feel the buck before it happens and disengage his hindquarters? If she can stick like a tic (love that!), then she has ridden him through the tizzy fit. Does he calm down afterward and go on or does he continue to buck when she asks for canter?
New Member:
kirayn

Posted on Monday, Jan 31, 2011 - 4:34 pm:

First, it sounds like you have an excellent young rider, esp. if she can "stick like a tick."

Next, I would ask a series of questions:
1) Do you have an equine chiropractor (or if your DVM does chiropractic work) who can check your TB. In particular, you could check ahead and run your hands along in the region behind the wither towards the center of the back where the rider sits, look for "hot spots" after a work session to see if he is "warmer" at any particular spots along his spine or major muscle groups.

2) Does your young rider do stretches with the TB before mounting followed by lateral then longitudinal stretches at the walk first and then trot before canter work. My OTTB will still give a buck once in awhile, usually I or my trainer let him get it out of his system by a bit of a run around the arena before work commences, but this may not be an option for you. Some folks will do something similar by letting their horse buck and play on the lunge line, but I would rather a horse think the lunge line as a time to listen and learn.

Alternatively, by remembering to do the simply lateral stretches (shoulder in and shoulder out) along the wall at the walk can result in a nice deep stretch longitudinally at the walk, all of which is then repeated at the trot, the results are fewer if any bucks at the canter, though nothing is guaranteed.

3) Have you considered something like a low level of a B-vitamin supplement to level out your TB (though too much can have the opposite effect that you want).

4) have you considered adding more fats to his diet as this too will tend to level out a TB.

I am sure you will soon get many other suggestions.

Good luck
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Monday, Jan 31, 2011 - 5:34 pm:

When he was younger one of mine used to do this every time we went into the canter.

I think that for one thing I began to expect it, which caused me to tense up and not make a smooth transition with him. He would stop the bucking after I yelled at him and gave him a pop with my riding crop.

Last spring when I began riding again after a couple of months of no riding this same horse's back had apparently changed and he went into a wild buck every time that I asked for a canter and there was no stopping it. I simply couldn't canter him without being bucked a great deal. He also felt to me as though he was compensating and not going quite as freely as normal at other gaits.

We figured out that my saddle was pinching him in the front. He palpated as very sore behind his shoulders.

Now that I've changed the padding he's doing well but I have to get the pad and saddle set just exactly right.

I'm in the process of trying a different saddle and one of the Len Brown Corrector pads with him now.

Make sure that the saddle is not so far forward that it is interfering with the horse's shoulders.
Member:
ptownevt

Posted on Monday, Jan 31, 2011 - 7:37 pm:

The vet I have scheduled does chiropractic work.
His bucking is somewhat random. It doesn't always occur at any particular gait or transition. He has bucked at all three gaits. His bucks often accompany a spook but not always. She stretches his front legs to make sure the girth isn't pinching anywhere but no other stretches. I would like to let him run in the indoor but I am afraid with the mirrors. I've known more than one horse who ran into the mirrors. He also kicks so high that I am afraid he could hit a mirror.

I will have another saddle fit check done. I will try the b-1 supplement.

He is on a low NSC feed with a high fat content, the Blue Seal version of TC Senior. He is very sensitive to carbs. He did well on Ultium and also on TC Senior, although he has never had a time when he did not buck at all. The feed dealer the barn uses does not handle TC anymore so they have switched to the Blue Seal SBP 14-10. Maybe I will try going back to TC Senior or Purina Ultium and see if that helps. I feel like I am grasping at straws.
New Member:
kirayn

Posted on Monday, Jan 31, 2011 - 7:54 pm:

Bear with me here....
Just as a follow-up on my previous note.

The longissimus muscle must be relaxed to properly move through the beats of the canter. How the horse moves at the walk can tell you whether or not this muscle is relaxed. Watch for a nice relaxed swing and bob of the head when riding on the buckle versus a tight hollow-backed carriage.

The Musculus longissimus cervicis runs along the wither and through the area where the rider sits, and it is runs underneath the Pars thoracica which extends from the back half of the scapula (shoulder blade) into the back right where the front of the rider's pelvis hits the saddle.

Not to say that this is a muscle issue, I suspect that you will find that there are a couple of vertebrae compressed or out of alignment

Focus on the right side between the upper point of the shoulder (Point #1) and where the wither spinous processes are highest (Point #2), then follow the descent into the area where the saddle rests (Point #3, about 6-8 inches from Point #2). This is your triangle focus area of concern. You would need to be one of my horse friends to know the reason for why I suggested the right side over the left.

Anyway, this area can cause pain through to the hip, stifle, and hock on right, as well as across the croup to the point of the hip on the left. In addition, it can cause pain about halfway up the right side of the neck. And it can also cause pain down the front of the line of the shoulder into the front of the chest and thereby affect the abduction muscles of the right front.

Vicki Z is very correct in suggesting that you check the location of the saddle. Depending upon the type of saddle, you and your young rider need to check the position of the saddle every time you girth-up and make sure that the horse has freedom of movement through the shoulders. But that said, the saddle should never be so far back as to rest on the lumbar region of the spine (the area past the last rib attached to the spine).

Again, check with your DVM. Just as Linda Lashley stated, "Many times these problems stem from pain issues." In the mean time, use your own hands to check over the horse's body, esp after the next workout. This will tell you a great deal which you will be able to pass along to your DVM. If you do not feel you have a very sensitive sense of touch, I suspect your young rider does and it will give her one more level of connection to her TB.

Good Luck and I hope you let us know the outcome.
Member:
canderso

Posted on Monday, Jan 31, 2011 - 7:59 pm:

Oh this can be so frustrating. I had a horse that bucked every time I got on him. It turned out to be pain - feet (low ringbone) and then hocks.
So make sure the vet check is thorough...

Out of curiosity, what does the dressage trainer suggest?
New Member:
kirayn

Posted on Monday, Jan 31, 2011 - 8:25 pm:

Sounds like you have made the right moves, DVM and possible saddle fit. But if you have had the saddle fitted twice, and depending upon whether they made any changes the last time, it may truly be a vet issue. Or, depending upon the saddle, he may not like it unless it has a bit of cut-away because of the long shoulders of the TB. I actually switched dressage saddles for my TB and it made a world of a difference.

Though my trainer rides him in her own jumper, and I can tell the difference. She uses extra padding because most of her horses are warm-bloods, but he still gets some tightness mid back.

My TB has had chiropractic work every 6 wks for 6 months (4 sessions) and now I am shifting him to 8 wks between sessions. He went from twists in his back with pelvic brusing (from bucking like a fool then slipping in the mud to do a belly flop out in pasture) to just have some compression and wanting the massage work while he snoozes.

Even so, a tarp outside the barn can still catch his eye and he could spook but is becoming much much calmer the longer he has been at the current barn. I bounce a ball off of him, his legs, and roll it between his feet to desensitize him and increase his ability to relax and "potentially" stay that way.

Your daughter might also be able to stretch his hind legs, depending upon her size. After cleaning his feet, she can pull his hind leg forward and up, like the farrier would if he was putting it on a stand to finish his trim. Hind leg stretches are definitely harder to do. Front leg stretches should not got beyond a 90 degree angle on the elbow.

My previous barn had mirrors, so arena run-abouts were out of the question. So you may have to check with your trainer for a suggestion here to see what they suggest as the best method for getting ride of the preliminary bucks (and kinks) before a workout.

As for the B-vitamins, there are several good ones out there. I use about a 1/2 dose of my calming supplement once per day, SmartPak and Uckele both carry good stuff.

I used to feed Omegatin, really high fat, really expensive, but also really hard to find, really...

You could always try supplementing with one of the various rice and or flax bran mixes, I like OmegaFields because I can find it consistently and it is a mix of both rice and flax bran. Another alternative is something like Cocosoya, but be careful of corn-only oil because of the inflammatory response it can cause. All of the about can provide you with the additional fats in the balance of Omega 6 and 3's that you want.

Question 1: Is he an OTTB or a never raced TB?
Question 2: How old is he?
Question 3: How long have you all had him?
New Member:
kimber3

Posted on Monday, Jan 31, 2011 - 9:13 pm:

I had a similar problem with my boy. He did end up having some tenderness on his back. He also did not like a Western saddle and would panic and buck as soon as he would take a step forward even if the cinch wasn't that tight. If you put an English saddle on him then no problem at all. I had a massage therapist come out only a few times and it helped him immensely. I still haven't been able to get him to accept the Western saddle, but I am just as happy riding English.
New Member:
kirayn

Posted on Monday, Jan 31, 2011 - 9:40 pm:

kimber3

Did you check to see if the bars on the western saddle fit your horse? The nice thing about an english saddle is the degree to which it can be 'fit' to the horse. The panels are broader at the front of the saddle where the spinous processes of spine are highest and this padding provides cushioning relative to the movement of the shoulder relative to knee pressure. In addition, the structure of the panels allow for the saddle to be 'lifted' off the spine and thereby reducing pressure on the spine.

In the case of a poorly fitting western saddle, people will sometimes check the pommel area immediately under the horn but forget to check for clearance further back where the pommel meets the rise of the seat.

Also, if the saddle pad is not lifted off the wither, regardless of whether it is an english or western saddle, you can be adding considerable pressure across the wither. Imagine if you had to walk around with a tight, heavy pressure across the base of your neck where it meets your shoulders. This would eventually cause you tremendous pain, headaches, pain in your hips and a change in your gait depending upon the balance of the weight.

As riders, we rarely ride completely balanced across the horse at all times. So if you add a tight saddle blanket and a saddle that is too tight (which pinches the spine) or too wide (DrOps onto the spine), you will have an unhappy horse.
Member:
jowidner

Posted on Tuesday, Feb 1, 2011 - 12:10 am:

Are the arena mirrors small enough that they could be covered (I'm imagining a tarp that could be rolled down like a window shade) and a temporary fence of tape and step-in poles be set up to keep the horse away from them to allow for turn-out? Depending on the arena design that could be fairly simple to do or way too much work to be worth doing.

Is the horse possibly resisting, or just too full of energy? Some horses will resist when asked to focus mentally by letting loose with a yee-ha! They may resist in the same manner when asked for work that is more difficult for them to do, like collected work. Or as others have said, a pain issue, especially with asking for collection.

Your daughter sounds very brave and skilled. Is there any possibility she is unknowingly blocking the horse's forward motion while simultaneously asking him to go forward, thereby leaving him nowhere to go but up? This can be very subtle. Sometimes a carefully viewed video can reveal this. Some horses will be very forgiving of this and just slow, but others already prone to giving a buck may respond with that when confused or looking for a way out.

I certainly understand your concern for your daughter's safety. Does your trainer/instructor ever ride the horse? Does the horse buck with her also?
Member:
lynnland

Posted on Tuesday, Feb 1, 2011 - 7:34 am:

Hi PT,

The others have given some great advice and it looks like you are making sure he is not in pain. Sounds like he might simply be in good condition and being goofy. Every horse has it's "thing" and this might be his. Not anything that I would call unusual, although certainly disconcerting, especially to a parent. If this is the case, I would expect it to be worse in the cold and he should be better in warmer weather. Those darn thoroughbreds (especially once fit) are hard to wear down a bit. What about a little lungeing prior to riding. It is amazing how a bit of cantering on the lunge can settle the silly ones. Is your daughter concerned with the bucking?

Good luck
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Tuesday, Feb 1, 2011 - 8:49 am:

Does he get rode out of the arena? Is he perhaps in need of some lo key trail rides on a loose rein?

I have a 11 year old gelding who loves to express himself bucking. His thing is to squeal, put his head down, and let his back end fly up! He's actually kicked me a couple of times, once setting me in the mud, and once he connected with a bucket I was carrying. He's not being mean at all, it's just his way. He'll do it riding also, but in the arena, not on trails. On trails he's looking around, and that's where his energy goes.

After the physical exam, I would try something different other than what the trainer is having them work on. It could be a stress & pain issue and I would suggest looking at it in a completely new way. Like maybe from his point of view; Dressage? Endless schooling in a arena? Repetition and more repetition? Even if that is not the case, I stand by my suggestion to look at things from his point of view.
Member:
ptownevt

Posted on Tuesday, Feb 1, 2011 - 8:04 pm:

Thank you all so much for your suggestions. I will definitely keep them in mind for him. To answer these questions:

Question 1: Is he an OTTB or a never raced TB? He raced as a 2 & 3 year old, no records as a 4 year old, then went back and ran once as a 5 year old. His name is Eightyfive Union. He is by Belong to Me out of Close to the Top. His grandsire is Danzig.
Question 2: How old is he? He is 15.
Question 3: How long have you all had him? We've had him about a year and a half.

He actually seems to like dressage. It seems to occupy his busy mind and calm him.

The trainer unfortunately thinks there is a train wreck looming. I think she would just as soon move my daughter on to one of her horses. I do not believe there is any ulterior motive. She is letting my daughter work for her lessons and would not be charging us for the rides on her horses. She believes that my daughter is very talented and wants to make sure she stays safe and continues to progress in her training. I can't argue with any of that. My DD will be riding one of her horses and our OTTB for now.
Member:
gramsey1

Posted on Tuesday, Feb 1, 2011 - 8:28 pm:

I am with all the opinions expressed here suggesting you verify that the problem is not physical pain. If you are sure it is not pain, and are at the end of your rope.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5O4JHJhiUE
This member of the Youtube seems to have an interest in bucking horses.
BTW we are right in the middle of this with one of our horses. We have an appointment for evaluation of the horse with a veterinarian on Monday.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Feb 1, 2011 - 8:48 pm:

I too want to put in a word for the possibility of a training or mental issue. Though 15 is a bit old for such a problem to develop as I understand it this is a long standing problem that has worsened as the horse and rider have advanced in training. Certainly one should first consider a physical problems with a good exam and any follow up diagnostics such an exam indicates. But if this road does not get you to where you want to go consider backing up to the point that this horse is enjoying his interaction (work) again and starting forward a bit more slowly. If this represents a danger to your daughter you should involve a professional trainer.

Now for the critiques of earlier advice which have become so unpopular. Please everyone do not take this personally. I am a grumpy old man but will be delighted to discuss any of the facts of what I say but will not engage anyone in opinions of my parentage. I blame myself for this problem by letting things get a bit loose around here.

A lot is made of saddle fit nowadays. I have owned over 50 saddle horses personally during my life and cared for thousands. In my experience horses reacting to the fit of any well made saddle is rare indeed with the possible exception of endurance horses and others similarly ridden. Yes, if a nail is poking down, or the pommel riding on the withers, or other such gross problem, horses are going to start hurting and rebel. Otherwise pain seems unlikely. I have certainly seen my share of horses that object to any saddle from a behavioral standpoint. These are mainly training problems with the rare horse that is just mentally incapable to deal with what is asked.

There is no true vertebral misalignments or compression at as described by the equine chiropractic. These are radiographic lesions that can not be made by physical examination of the horse. So this is a subjective term of uncertain meaning and fit the term "alternative medicine". But I have read and been told (but have not experienced) that horses do occasionally respond to these adjustments of poorly defined lesions. For more on this see HorseAdvice.com » Member's Services » The Lounge: Kick back and relax. » Alternative Medicine and Epistomology » Chiropractic » Equine Chiropractic Principles.
DrO
Member:
canderso

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 2, 2011 - 10:57 am:

Good on you, Dr O!
I don't think you are a grumpy old guy at all! I don't post much any more (kind of think it has all been said) but I keep paying my membership just so I can enjoy your evidence-based commentary.

Back on topic: I read that the trainer thinks this is a "train-wreck looming". Those are pretty strong words! I would be inclined to take that to heart and change horses.
Member:
ptownevt

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 2, 2011 - 12:23 pm:

I have definitely taken those words to heart. Anna will be riding two of her trainer's FEI horses. For now, though, I have to do everything I can to figure this out with her horse. To be honest, I do think this is likely just something he does when he's frustrated or wants to play instead of work or gets startled, etc. The big issue is how much I love this horse. I can't find another home for him because, one, there aren't many companion homes out there and, two, this type of problem would very likely have him end up abused and/or headed to slaughter. I couldn't bear the thought of that. I wouldn't mind keeping him as a pet, but I am currently supporting two other horses and a blind pony that can't be ridden. My finances are limited and we struggle to care for them all. They are taken care of but I often have to make tough choices about which bills get paid when. I just want so much for this to work out.
Member:
gramsey1

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 2, 2011 - 6:01 pm:

Dr. O,
You are the reason I pay for this service. You do a very nice job.
This is a very difficult problem. Medical research suggests that there is low probability of a clinical finding. So, we wonder. Training, behavioral, pain . . .
My wife and daughter have read, as have I all you have to offer on the subject. It then end, I belive your advice is worth the cost of admission.
Thank you.
Member:
mrose

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 2, 2011 - 6:26 pm:

Ha! I've been told I was becoming a grumpy old lady; no wonder I like this site!

Just for the record, I have had two problems with saddle fit; the worse was with a short backed horse and the western saddle skirts were too long over the loin area. They rubbed and put pressure on this area and made the horse sore enough that he "DrOpped away" whenever you made a turn (which caused the skirt to touch his loin.) The other was with another western saddle that was too narrow for a wide horse. I've never had a problem with a hunt, all purpose or dressage saddle, although I've used different pads on different horses.
New Member:
kirayn

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 2, 2011 - 7:14 pm:

Dear Ptowne
Glad Dr. O joined in the discourse. He is the primary reason I am a member.

Overall, every suggestion I have seen has been very positive. I think most of us suggested that a DVM is the place to start, which is where you said you were starting. In my state, equine chiropractic and accupuncture is performed only by DVMs.

I have seen some out-of-state chiropractor/DVMs at clinics that I would never let near one of my horses, and others that incorporate massage or other muscular therapy follow-up that made significant changes in horses that had been suffering for long periods.

And while I think there are many well-made saddles out there, there are many that are not. I have seen people ride in western saddles with broken trees and not know it and/or think it is a problem as long as they use a little thicker saddle pad, and then not understand why their horse keeps "acting up." But this does not sound like the case here.

Dressage allow such close contact, that if the saddle were poorly made, then it could be a source the behaviorial response seen in your OTTB as Dr. O described.

You gave the age of your OTTB as 15 yo, that does seem a bit old for this problem, but not impossible for a long standing physical, or mental/behaviorial problem - my 13 yo OTTB gets into a little buck once in a great while, but mostly if he hasn't been stretched sufficiently in warm-up. Though this is separate from just needing to get his kicks after a week of ice like we currently have been having.

You said you had owned him for 1.5 years, but that the horse had been bucking for 3 years of which you know. Similar to one of the other discussants, it would be good to know what the trainer thinks once the trainer has been on-board.

Even if your DVM clears the horse, and your current riding instructor is willing to mount-up, you should still consider following as Dr. O suggests, and locate a professional horse trainer to see you through this problem.

If not for your daughter, then for the next owner of the horse. Professional training would probably increase the saleability of the horse to a good home, particularly if he has known bucking issues; and make him safer for your daughter should you decide to keep him.

I have been reading posts for awhile, and you have many people in your corner.

Good Luck PTowne
Member:
kirayn

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 2, 2011 - 7:16 pm:

Correction to my last post:
I have seen people ride in western saddles with broken trees and not know it and/or think it is NOT a problem as long as they use a little thicker saddle pad, and then not understand why their horse keeps "acting up."

Sorry}
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 2, 2011 - 8:42 pm:

Thicker pads often seem to make problems even worse.

One of my horses is a very left-handed horse (maybe only about 10% of horses). When a horse DrOps one shoulder or a right handed rider is on a left handed horse a lot of little things can add up to pain for the horse. Saddles that are too narrow for the horse's back are a problem but I've also been told that "wide" saddles with extra padding cause even more pinching.

A more common problem is not the saddle or the horse but the human placing the saddle in the wrong location. If it pinches their shoulders or withers you will know about it in their way of going, which will NOT be good.

The horses' loins are very strong but some saddles will move and rub in this area, cause the hair to rub off, and eventually turn into saddle sores if one rides often and hard enough. I describe this problem because it is a problem that has been consistent with my left-handed, swaybacked horse.

Maybe most horses don't have saddle fit issues but for those who do it can be pretty profound, even with the most stoic horses.

Recently I am using one of the Len Brown CorrecTOR pads and am getting pretty amazing results.
Member:
freshman

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 2, 2011 - 10:50 pm:

Does bute have any effect on his behavior under saddle? Sorry if I missed this info somehow!
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Thursday, Feb 3, 2011 - 7:23 am:

Am anxious to see what you find out is causing the bucking issue. I am wondering if anyone has tried riding him bareback? That might do 2 things: take away any pain from saddle/girth discomfort. And give him new sensations of freedom perhaps? (hmmm...maybe that won't be good, lol!)

I am still thinking a mental issue. But then if it is a pain issue, it becomes a mental issue! In his mind he would associate riding with pain and react. Even after the pain is removed it might take a whole new approach to get him back on track.

;-) Don't mind me, I enjoy trying to figure out problem horses, and horses with problems! If it's just pain from something obvious, great! But horses just aren't that easy to figure out.

Vicki,

Would you care to start a discussion on the corrector pad? I talked to Len Brown once years ago and was intrigued by his pad; very put off by the cost though! And it's more expensive now.
Member:
jowidner

Posted on Thursday, Feb 3, 2011 - 9:56 am:

Whoa! Angie, I for one would certainly not be brave enough to get on a horse with a history of bucking without a saddle. And if it is a pain issue, it may not be the saddle per se but even just the weight of the rider. I've heard some say that bareback can be more uncomfortable for the horse than being ridden in a saddle, because the weight of the rider's seat bones is not distributed across a wider area like it is with a saddle. JMHO!
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Thursday, Feb 3, 2011 - 10:24 am:

I wouldn't be brave enough either! And you make some good points about the pain which I didn't consider. Something to consider after a thorough physically examination. With 2 very experienced riders working together, leading or on lunge line. I am again thinking about the horses mental state and no saddle may give him pause. As DrO is fond of saying: "I am not there to examine the horse...etc." And that was JMHO too of course!

The first, last, and most important thing to remember is STAY SAFE!
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Thursday, Feb 3, 2011 - 10:32 am:

I also was thinking just walking bareback to see how the horse reacted, not putting on a rodeo act!

And I get the impression that the owner, rider/daughter and trainer are all experienced and are only looking for suggestions and not likely to take any & every thing they read here straight to heart.

I don't know what it is lately, (the weather?) but it seems we all need to be careful what we post on here!
Member:
lhenning

Posted on Thursday, Feb 3, 2011 - 11:03 am:

Hi,

You never mention if he bucks while lunging, both saddled or unsaddled. Seems if it is pain or saddle, he would do it either way.

It might help to write down what was being done just before the bucking and what normally would come after that part of the lesson to see if he is anticipating something. I understand your daughter is a very good rider, but could he be sensing that your daughter is giving him conflicting cues?

If spooking is the cause then perhaps you might address that issue and see if anything changes. I used to be nervous my horse would spook and it made his anxiety worse. The rider really has to be very calm when a horse is prone to this behavior. There are a ton of good articles on this webpage and especially the ones that deal with spooking:
https://juliegoodnight.com/q&a.php

Julie works with both dressage and western horses. Her methods have been very successful for me. My horse used to spook at every little thing but after working with him, he now trusts me to decide if something is scarey or not. Julie is softer and lower in tone than many clinicians, and she makes good sense by figuring out the root cause of a behavior then shaping a training technique to address it.

Since TB's are sensitive to begin with, perhaps his emotions are getting away from your daughter. Dr. O makes good sense when he says to step back to the place before the bucking begins and work forward in a slower fashion. I also think Angie makes good sense in having the horse do something else besides dressage, to give his mind something refreshing to think about. Think back to when you were in school and imagine they never had recess. How is he at trail riding, or going over rails and low jumps? Even choosing to not ride and do ground work for one day each week can be a relief to him. I was not trained to do jumping so I would lunge my horse over jumps and he loved it. By giving your horse one day each week to do something different he might enjoy his work a little more.

Resistance can be met with different responses, but the trick is finding which response will help the individual horse find the right answer. For some, it involves getting after them but for others, backing off. If you approach the problem with an open attitude that an answer can be found, then it is a matter of trying many different things until you find the right one. Even a small change can make a big difference over time. If one thing doesn't work, try something else. No offense to the instructor because she sounds like a peach, but some people just keep doing the same thing and expecting a different outcome.

These are just a few ideas. This forum is a great place for brainstorming to come up with many ideas.

Good luck!
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Thursday, Feb 3, 2011 - 11:35 am:

Angie KJ, I have posted about my experiences with the CorrecTOR pad, adding onto a conversation about it that I had previously read.

His web address is higher up on that page but will put it here also:
https://www.thecorrector.net/
Member:
cometrdr

Posted on Thursday, Feb 3, 2011 - 6:56 pm:

ok this one makes my weekly review worth while! I too don;t post too much any more and my Comet does like to Buck recently when I request the canter. First let me tell you few things;
I can only canter him in an open field are -he is too big and my 'arena' too small. I ride both english and western on him - same with both saddles. he appears more comfortable with the Weight of the Western Saddle. It Has no back cinch. ALSO.... this is the biggest also - i noticed after the first bucking episode last week that the has a knot along his spine just before the rump where when I were to break in to a canter the saddles would come down and hit his back (remember no back cinch on western english one flops a bit too at the canter) all other gates are fine - lunges fine (still no canter on lunge arena is just too small) I am assuming that small very small knot on his back is the problem. Calling in chiropractor this week to assess and give adjustment. This boy is 11 this years this year. still thinks hes a young colt though....
I will watch this thread and also let you guys know what happens after the Chiro Visit!
New Member:
ptowne

Posted on Saturday, Mar 5, 2011 - 11:37 pm:

Well, I've changed his grain to Ultium, something I know he has been calm on. The vet adjusted his back, saying it needed adjustment in several places. He failed the flex test on both hocks so we injected them, or, rather, the vet did. Gunar also cut himself which caused his leg to swell up quite a bit, so it was a few weeks before Anna could get on again. Today was their 4th time out since the vet visit. They're 4 for 4! No bucking, no big spooks. He's been PERFECT! Today snow came off the roof with a big bang on the arena wall. Gunar hardly flicked an ear! Can you believe it?! Before the vet visit, that bang would have set him off big time. I am knocking wood furiously, but it looks like we our sweet boy is carrying over to under saddle. We are so happy; knocking wood, but very, very happy!
Member:
lilo

Posted on Sunday, Mar 6, 2011 - 12:28 pm:

Good news, and good wishes for the future. Lilo
Member:
dustee

Posted on Sunday, Mar 6, 2011 - 2:25 pm:

I have been around horses all my life. I have been very badly hurt several times, but I am still alive. There are times I should not have gotten on a certain horse. I was either in a hurry to get a training session over with because I had a busy day ahead; another time I recollect I wasn't happy about the way a horse acted yesterday - but don't wish to carry those feelings over to today, etc.....
I wish You would look forward to - say a couple of months from now - and what would you change if your daughter got hurt by this horse. People can die from injuries from a horse. Is this horse worth it? I have had horses I totally adore - and I have let them go, because I could never take the chance that someone - usually one of my students - would get hurt.
I am not trying to be the bearer of bad news. We are only just so educated - only just so smart - and our hindsight is still perfect. Your daughter is worth everything.....try thinking of other options. Dustee
Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Sunday, Mar 6, 2011 - 7:22 pm:

Pamela,

You said two things in your post that caught my attention. Hock issues and back pain. While I do not deal with riding horse, I do deal with racehorses and these two areas are generally connected although most folks, don't put two and two together. The other thing I would look at is feet because it is usually there where the hock problems and back problems begin.

I am not talking sore feet, I am talking form and function. If your horses toes are too long and his heels are to low, that puts stress on all the areas above the hoof, the leg does not align properly, and the hocks are usually first to show the additional stress. Then because the hocks are sore, the horse over compensates with his back resulting in activities such as you described earlier in this thread.

It was your horses way of telling you that something was wrong, his activities since then proved that you hit the right spots, but if you are having a form and function issue with his feet, then the problem is likely to return after the injections and adjustments wear off.

I'd like to see a set of close up conformation shots of his feet from the side including his hocks and lower legs and see how he stands naturally, no posing. Does he stand under himself, does he stand square?

I know my own horse is very sensitive to how level she is and also if she has the proper angle for her. If the angle, toe length and heel is not quite right she does some really weird things and she gets really ornery. It took me a long time to figure out her problem was the form of her foot and we have come up with a compromise so she can work and race her best.

Just my thoughts
Rachelle
Member:
gramsey1

Posted on Sunday, Mar 6, 2011 - 8:12 pm:

I agree with Rachelle, as usual, and Dustee. We have 9 year old OTTB. Off the track for four years. Bucking problem. It has taken a year to build good hoof structure. Less bucking, but still an issue. X-ray reading of back and lameness check yielded us this advise. Racing and dressage are different ways of going. Help him through the pain with naproxen, better than Previxox for muscle pain, or if necessary Robaxin (He said this should be a training phase not a chronic condition).
We started building topline and back muscle with long lines in a round pen, then in an arena (indoor we are in PA). Once we get past resistance (absolutely no bucking or attitude)in all three gates, extended and collected, without weight. We will start again under saddle. We are now armed with the right pain relievers, and an added measure of caution. Have not needed the pain relievers yet.
Read your horse, be safe out there. Wringing tail, back sensitivity, saddle sour . . . Where are you with this guy . . .
New Member:
ptowne

Posted on Tuesday, Jun 28, 2011 - 9:45 pm:

Just wanted to update. Gunar is still behaving perfectly. No bucking. Only legitimate spooks. He's almost lazy now. Anna has even started riding with a dressage whip. She doesn't need to touch him with it; it just keeps him up enough so she doesn't have to kick him into a trot.

I had my first lesson in 25 years today on him. He was perfect. I did not ride with a whip. He was nicely forward; enough so when I asked for a trot he trotted right away and so that I could give a half halt to balance him without his slowing or breaking. It was so very good!
Member:
canter

Posted on Wednesday, Jun 29, 2011 - 7:02 am:

Great news!
Member:
lilo

Posted on Wednesday, Jun 29, 2011 - 10:05 am:

Such good news! Lilo
Member:
babychop

Posted on Friday, Jul 1, 2011 - 7:43 pm:

What was it that turned it all around for him?
Member:
divamare

Posted on Friday, Jul 1, 2011 - 9:42 pm:

Excellent! So happy for you both.
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