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Discussion on TB Bucking - Racing to Hunter to Dressage
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Member:
gramsey1
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 9, 2011 - 4:19 pm:
I am stating this discussion as a follow up to behavioral problems with our OTTB. We have had him since he was taken off the track lame in October 2007. Onyx (Cat's Halo) got a few months off, starting into training for Hunter Showing in early spring 2008. The trainer and our daughter experienced sessions of great promise followed by bucking, retreat and restart. The trainer gave up on him after he became violent from the ground.
We moved and lost most of 2009 to illness and injury (us not the horse). But, we worked a lot on ground manners. At this point the horse is a saint from the ground. Seriously, he doesn't need stall doors. Point him into a stall and in he goes. He will not exit unless asked. He does not need cross ties. Though, he stands quietly in cross ties if asked. Nobody would believe that this horse broke by daughter's toe, kicked her elbow off, or pinned the barn manager against a paddock fence. He doesn't seem capable of a violent response to anything or anyone. Today, the barn manager permits were 2 year old to play with him in the barn. He is completely trust worthy.
Under saddle, it is another story. Last year we realized, low and quiet was not working for this horse, who can easily jump 4' oxers with 6' spreads. One rider said, He doesn't even get interested until the fences are over 3' 6". Yet, he would still become resistant (read quick little buck that lauches even a good rider several feet into the air) to schooling and training. It seemed to be back pain.
We tried expensive saddles, message, chiro. We were introduced to Dressage as a way to develop a strong back. J.J. Tate works with him and our trainer. We ran into a wall, resistance to canter and collection.
I read all the articles on back pain and finally decided to go ahead with one last Veterinary check, and pay for back X-rays if needed.
We went to Dr. Brendan Furlong's in NJ. Initally, he wasn't sure X-rays were needed. He saw nothing to indicate a back problem. Onxy had been in stall rest for two weeks and we wanted to be sure. So, we ordered the X-rays. Dr. Furlong said, the X-rays indicate nothing in the bones. But, he was taught how to run like a race horse. You are trying to teach him a new way to carry himself, how to carry weight. He is going to get sore. Help him through it with Naproxen which works better for muscle pain than Previcox. If he needs something stronger try Robaxin.
More to follow.
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 9, 2011 - 8:06 pm:
Good luck Guy. Sure hope your boy makes the turn.
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 9, 2011 - 8:10 pm:
Keep us updated. My first thought was maybe he needs more time? Since he seems sweet from the ground now.
Or maybe he's meant to be someone's weekend trail riding partner?
Is this the one neuron guy? I think that was you that said you had one like that, ha!
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Member:
juliem
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 9, 2011 - 9:15 pm:
Guy, I don't know if this is even pertinent to your situation, but a really good way to build back strength and help a young horse learn to balance with a rider is hill work, especially at a walk. Walking down hill, if the horse is stopped often so he can learn to get his butt under himself helps a lot with balance. Walking uphill builds a lot of strength in the stifle and hip area. That strength helps them balance the weight of a rider. Having to go up and down hill at a walk means the horse has to balance with every step in order not to break into a trot.
I'm talking foothills, not mountains. It's unfortunate this isn't an opportunity possible for every youngster going into training. Maybe some long trail rides at a walk would help your guy shift gears? Long, meaning several hours and miles. But then, enough miles probably help with every training issue huh?
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Member:
canter
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 10, 2011 - 7:13 am:
Considering how Onyx changed his ground manners from unruly to angelic, I wonder if, (ruling out anything physical, which you seem to have done), his training needs to be at an extraordinary slow pace. Just because he has the talent to go, doesn't neccessarily mean he is mentally ready. Going from racing to the focus and discipline needed for jumping and/or dressage takes a shift in mental focus.
Light, varied and interesting work under saddle, designed to build his back (such as trail rides and hill work suggested above) may help him shift his mental gears. He just may need to shift those gears slower than the average horse.
...I'm thinking out loud, Guy. From what I have read, you have already done a remarkable job working with Onyx and have looked deeply for answers to his issues. I hope you find those answers and look forward to hearing that he's become a dependable hunter for your daughter
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 10, 2011 - 8:01 am:
It is the old training story Guy. Start at a place the horse is comfortable and slowly work toward where the horse becomes uncomfortable. Once that happens, back up one step where the horse is comfortable again and do that step over and over making sure the horse is getting lots of positive reinforcement at this stage. Then try to move forward again perhaps with smaller steps. The smaller the steps the better the chance you will make progress. This all assumes you want to take the risk of injury which seems like a real possibility here.
DrO
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Member:
gramsey1
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 10, 2011 - 9:44 am:
Angie,
Yes, this is the single neuron TB, actually, I think I initially gave him credit for having two neurons.
All, thanks for the great advice. We do have some hills for him to work on. If he is not sore, he is very safe, quiet and beautiful. So, we need to go fast enough to keep building but slow enough to be safe.
Monday rider and trainer are driving to Hassler Dressage for a long line clinic. Why get on his back when it hurts?
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Member:
paardex
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 10, 2011 - 12:35 pm:
Guy from the showjumper background I can only warn you about the 'he is not interested if it is so low' part. I've known quite a lot of horses that were like that. But they always would just bump bars and be NOT INTERESTED. The ones that were unruly and to fast not relaxed or whatever on lower jumps NEVER became dependable by skipping the low part.
I used lungeing and freejumping and cavaletti work for the building up strenght in the back muscles a lot, less dangerous and easier on the horse[obviously not all the time riding needs to be involved to]
I know from the vet from Studbook Z. that they put the three and four years old horses when in training on a low dose of aspirin to take care of tiny inflammations and aches and most of all to [because it makes the blood thinner] get a thorough bloodflow through the body. BUT they only worked them like that for three month periods, then it was back to pasture for a while[this training was necessary because of the big amount of horses which takes an inordinate amount of people for a professional studfarm[financially not feasible]] AND they warned to never ever try this without a very good vet at hand and a very experienced trainer.AND it was experimental don't know what they decided in the end.
Just thought you might be interested in this and certainly not suggesting you to try.
It just shows that even without a race background and no muscles to be worked in a different way the training already is balancing between pain and progress I think. And one horse or another might react very different on a bit of uneasy muscles.
Just wanted to let you know that if somebody suggested to solve your problem by 'higher might get his interest' you should hear the other side to.
Jos
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Member:
gramsey1
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 10, 2011 - 8:37 pm:
Excellent input Jos,
There are no jumps in his near future. I agree completely. He needs to develop strength and coordination. We'll keep the cavaletti in mind. We use them as a change of pace. He is very interested, when we set them in sets that require his concentration.
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Member:
gramsey1
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 19, 2011 - 6:48 am:
Follow-up with photos
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Member:
gramsey1
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 19, 2011 - 6:59 am:
Buddies
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Member:
gramsey1
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 19, 2011 - 7:01 am:
Saddle fitter, interesting stuff
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Member:
gramsey1
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 19, 2011 - 7:02 am:
Wondering if this is going to help?
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Member:
gramsey1
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 19, 2011 - 7:04 am:
Fitter smells GOOD
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Member:
gramsey1
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 19, 2011 - 7:06 am:
Trot Trot Trot
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Member:
gramsey1
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 19, 2011 - 7:08 am:
Can we pick up the canter ?
No . . . not yet.
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Member:
gramsey1
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 19, 2011 - 7:12 am:
Okay, back to the Trot.
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Member:
gramsey1
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 19, 2011 - 7:22 am:
Walking the hills in the pastures has helped a lot. He is better balanced and, as you can see, is in pretty good shape. He is still developing a topline. And that little buck wasn't an effort to get the rider off, more frustration with working in a collected canter.
I didn't include photos of them working at he walk, but his walk is different now too. Much bigger but relaxed. Not resistant or hesitant. Our trainer is pleased with the progress so far.
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 19, 2011 - 7:43 am:
Wonderful news Guy. He is beautiful.  ))
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 19, 2011 - 9:48 am:
He's a very nice looking horse, and I am glad to hear progress is being made!
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Member:
lilo
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 19, 2011 - 9:49 am:
Great photos - put the relationship first!! He seems curious and that is good. Lilo
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Member:
36541
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 19, 2011 - 10:09 am:
Lovely photos, a likely looking boy for any athletic venture. Full of personality I wager? Stacy
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Member:
canter
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 19, 2011 - 10:53 am:
Handsome horse, Guy, with a sweet face and what looks to be a very kind personality. I hope he continues to improve!
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Member:
rtrotter
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 19, 2011 - 3:50 pm:
Very pretty(handsome) I love the expression in his eyes. Best of Luck. Another happy racehorse story.
Rachelle
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Member:
gramsey1
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 19, 2011 - 8:51 pm:
Angie,
I just reread the thread. It was one neuron.
You followed with, Maybe I will change Tango's name after all: "Two Neuron" Thanks for making me laugh!
I guess the photo tells it all. Our TB has only one. I used to warn Caroline, "burn it and you're done."
We are making progress. He came right back to work after that little kick-out.
BTW, it was seventy degrees on Friday and we had to use the hair net on his nose for the first time in many months.
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Sunday, Mar 20, 2011 - 8:29 am:
Guy, I will have to remember that "burn it and you're done" comment. I think I know some people like that too, haha! But seriously, that is just a reminder as to how slow we must take the training with these special ones.
I added to my discussion "Dancing in the Picadero"
sharing that I had a short but successful ride on my "Two Neuron" fella. These challenging ones sure make life interesting, but the rewards are even sweeter are they not?
I love the photo of him gazing off into the distance. He looks smart and sweet, nice eye. My mentor always told me "a good eye means more than anything else about a horse."
Looking forward to more photo updates down the road.
Stay safe.
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