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Member:
andym

Posted on Saturday, Mar 19, 2011 - 10:14 pm:

Hi All
I have a training problem with my 8 year old Arabian gelding. I brought him to his present trainer (whom I have known for many years) as a five year old. He had been well started under saddle by a Q/H trainer friend of mine. Our present goal was to get him into dressage. He has picked it up pretty well but also has picked up head tossing which has increased and prevents him getting good scores.
He's a well mannered horse and I have had our vet examine his mouth, teeth, ears. poll and any other area he thought could be a medical cause which has ruled out a medical cause.
I think it's the bit and handling of the reins. As you might guess, my trainer thinks otherwise. To her, "it's the horse". I have read many, many training comments by members of HA and am favorably impressed by their thoughtfulness and experience.
I have enclosed a picture which is a snapshot from a video. I would very much like to hear your critique of the tack and rider with relation to a possible cause of head tossing.

My picture may not have loaded - too large- if not, I'll get help and load tomorrow.
Member:
mrose

Posted on Sunday, Mar 20, 2011 - 1:36 am:

Imo Arabs can be much more sensitive to the bit, and to all other cues, like body position, than some of the other breeds, like QH. There are exceptions, of course. What kind of bit is the horse and what is his training history? I've had difficulties with trainers, good people, who weren't used to Arabians. Most of them just seem to be sinsitive and take a little differnet method of handling. That being said, any horse will resist the bit if he's rushed into a difficult or severe bit before he is ready, or if the body of the rider is telling the horse one thing and the bit and hands are telling it another.
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Sunday, Mar 20, 2011 - 8:51 am:

Sara makes some good points. I haven't owned as many Arabs as she has but my experience echos what she is saying.

The only Arab I have left has a very small mouth and she cannot handle a lot of bit in her mouth. Besides the size of a horses mouth, you need to take into consideration the thickness of the horses tongue, lips, and I think there is something about the jaw bones also. I read about this; it might be on the Myler Bit website.

In my opinion, and I am not slamming dressage riding when I say this as this don't apply to all of course (and I can't do what they can either!) many seem to try to hold the horse in frame between legs & bit. For a sensitive Arab, that does not make any sense! It took me many YEARS to get my mare to carry her head lower, and carry herself well, without the head tossing. A bit that is tilted forward in her mouth helps as she needs to carry her head just so to find the sweet spot. I change between that bit and a snaffle on her.

What calm down/head down cue does your trainer use? My favorite is I take the slack out of one rein, and lift the other rein up a bit. On a circle, I would "hold" the outside rein, lift up the inside rein. It's all done very softly, gently, and the release comes instantly. Horses, IMO, catch on very quick to that.

A last note: Not every one can ride my mare, cuz as Sara says, body position and sensitivity is so important to these horses. One has to sit "soft" and have soft hands or you have one frustrated horse tossing her head and pinning her ears.
Member:
canter

Posted on Sunday, Mar 20, 2011 - 11:39 am:

While sometimes, "it's the horse", in my experience, it's more often the rider. Frequently, we don't feel the mistakes we are making unless they are pointed out by someone knowledgeable on the ground.

If all the tack fits correctly, then my guess is the horse is being over-ridden with the hands. Roundness comes from engaging the engine, the back end, not from holding the head in. If the horse is flipping his nose, he's not accepting the contact and therefore the contact is likely uncomfortable to him. When he gives, does the inside rein soften as a reward? Is he adaquately pushing off from the back end? Are the riders elbows soft and giving, following the horses movevemnt without giving away the contact? How's the riders position? What about the riders legs - are they softly lying against the horse sides or inadvertently bumping the horse?

With my mare, she will reflect in her way of going, exactly what I am doing correctly or incorrectly. If I am having trouble, I look to myself first as it's almost always my fault if she is resisting something. As soon as I figure out (usually with the help of my trainer) what I am doing wrong, and fix it, my mare softens and relaxes into the bit and starts swinging freely thu her body.

It takes a lot of feel and a good eye from the ground, sometimes to get it sorted out. Hopefully you can post that picture and that may give us a few more clues to help you out.
Member:
andym

Posted on Sunday, Mar 20, 2011 - 1:24 pm:

Hi,
I think this photo will open. If not, I'll try again.
I appreciate your comments and they are well taken. Yes, Arabians are more sensitive in many ways, but we've both had Arabians for many yrs and believe this is unusual.
I think I've downsized the photo and it uploaded.
Member:
andym

Posted on Sunday, Mar 20, 2011 - 1:56 pm:

HiIbn Warranty

Third Time's a Charm ??
This is the pic.
Member:
andym

Posted on Sunday, Mar 20, 2011 - 3:06 pm:

Here's another photo. A bit clearer I think.
THe bit is a three piece snaffle fitted properly for size.
His sire was an Australian and Canadian National Champion and his dam was a very well bred of mine. He was first green broke as a stallion by a very good QH trainer. Then because of stable manners and general problems of keeping a stallion, I had him gelded as a four year old. His present trainer started when he was five and did reasonably well in training level dressage at mostly local shows. He's easy to handle and well mannered. But the head tossing, though not severe, detracts from his performance.

IBN Warranty
Member:
dustee

Posted on Sunday, Mar 20, 2011 - 3:09 pm:

Just some observations - - and I have been in training, showing, and teaching of dressage for about 16 years.....which certainly does not make me any kind of an expert by any means...
The saddle as shown appears to be extremely small for this rider (and I hope it's not you!). There is no room between the back of the rider and the cantle of the saddle. I would expect to see several inches.
The riders ear, shoulder and hip is in line - as they should be. But, the heel is also supposed to be in the same line, and is dramatically forward. Therefore, the stirrup leather needs to be lengthened. It's much too short.
In dressage, the thumb of the rider's hand needs to be on top. This rider hands are "overhand" and need to be turned to the thumb is on top. The wrist, however, is straight, which is good.
The saddle and girth appear to be much too far forward on the horse. You would normally see about a 4" space between the front of the girth and the elbow of the horse. This is because the scapula of the horse must never be pinched and must be totally free for correct movement through the shoulder.
Swishing of the horse's tail makes me wonder about the abount of tension in the rider. Normally, in dressage, the rider's toe is pointed straight ahead and this rider appears - in this split second, to have her toe pointed out - which also puts her heel into the horse's side.
Is this a double bridle being used? A double bridle would not be used for a horse new to dressage for at least four years or so...
Just some observations....
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Sunday, Mar 20, 2011 - 4:14 pm:

I know nothing about dressage saddles, and my definition of "dressage" is a horse moving freely with rider and horse in balance. I "play" at dressage, meaning I ask for lightness, and some higher level moves without any idea if I am accomplishing them or not! Don't know, don't care, I will NEVER ride in front of a judge and my concern is my horse(S) & I are having fun! And we keep challenging ourselves. My eyes glaze over on all the stuff about leg here, leg there, DrOpped shoulder, yadda yadda.

Having said that, what I see from the pictures is a horse being held in an inflexible manner, between hands and legs. (no insult meant, just my impression is I see tension in rider & horse) I would suggest stepping back and doing mega work on a loose rein, asking for relaxation. Again, not an expert here, but a horse, IMO, should be able to move freely without contact at all gaits, and engage from behind, before being asked for contact on the bit. (After initial basic training) Get rid of the running martingale if that is what is being used. What purpose is it except to bump him in the mouth?

When going back to contact, see how light of contact can be made with his mouth, and still hold his frame without the head tossing. Give him time to get used to the idea there will be contact, but less than before and he may (hopefully) surprise everyone and agree to the new rules.

I would be really concerned that this horse will blow up eventually and get worse. Head tossing is a sign of something irritating him, and the horse is 99.9% right and it's up to us to figure it out.

Three part bit: With the nice heavy lozenge thingy in the middle or that other piece that is a bit harsher?

Also, I've head success with going back to all the relaxation work, then temporarily going with another bit. In Heather Moffett's book, "Enlighted Equitation" she says to use a mullen bit which encourages the horse to round it's back and all that stuff ;-).

What I am suggesting is not months of starting over; a week or two is all. It's amazing simple. Throw out everything the trainer & you are thinking and trying to accomplish and just ask the horse what is comfortable for him for now.

He's very handsome BTW! And I could never stand riding in that type saddle, lol! Tried once for about 15 minutes, hated it.

Best of luck, hope something works!
Member:
canderso

Posted on Sunday, Mar 20, 2011 - 4:38 pm:

Hi Andy,
what a sweet looking horse - and he clearly is able to extend, which is such a good thing!!

As usual, Fran C has really struck on some really good points... without having seen any pictures (Fran C is well worth listening to!) Dustylin and Angie have made some other points that are maybe worth considering too.

I have to admit I agree that it looks like your saddle isn't quite right. Dressage saddles are made to be sat in in a certain way, and a strong hunter/jumper leg (and seat) sometimes makes the saddle work against you and your horse. Food for thought: you might want to play around with a few more saddles to see if any are 'easier' for both you and the horse. You will know when you find it... Suddenly your posture straightens, your legs DrOp down and your horse sighs in happiness.

My big question is what is that thing hanging behind the horse's jaw that appears to be attached to the thingie around his neck? The picture isn't really clear...
Member:
lynnland

Posted on Sunday, Mar 20, 2011 - 7:48 pm:

Hi,

I have ridden hunter/jumpers for over 20 years and generally have had success with very simple snaffle bits (egg butts, d-rings, loose rings, etc). However, I was getting some head shaking on the turns in my otherwise very cooperative warmblood. I went to the myler site and did some reading and tried one of the shallow ports (MB04) and could not believe the difference. It is not a bit for all horses, but I was pleasantly surprised at the difference it made in my horse. Note that he was happy in it long after the honeymoon phase I often see with horse in new bits. Another very sensitive horse a friend has made incredible improvements when changed to a mullen mouth bit. We put a huge amount of effort into fitting saddles but don't generally seem to do the same for bits (at least I never used to) Good luck
Member:
jowidner

Posted on Monday, Mar 21, 2011 - 1:22 am:

Hi Andy. You mentioned that these photos are from a video. Could you post the video for us? Just put it on you tube or another video site and then post the link to it here on Horse Advice.

Critiquing a photo is always a bit hazardous because it is only a moment in time. With that disclaimer, I agree that the saddle looks too small and that makes it hard for the rider to sit properly. I see imbalance and tension in the rider's head, neck and shoulders, and that is going to travel right down the reins to the horses mouth. Its especially apparent in the second photo, where tension and resistance in the horse are more apparent as well.

I don't mean to sound overly critical of the rider. Just relating what I see in these photos. Your horse is lovely. What does he do with a looser rein? Will he lower his head, soften and relax?

The bridle looks to be a single bit with two sets of reins attached and a running martingale on the lower rein. Is that correct? While I have seen that used on young horses in Morgan and Arabian barns, I've not seen it used by any dressage trainers that I can think of.

The latter simply use a snaffle with a single rein and spend a lot of time encouraging the horse to move forward in a soft, relaxed, and even tempo. When the horse can carry that out reliably, then lots of work with transitions and circles to encourage further self-carriage. All done with just a snaffle and single rein.
Member:
canter

Posted on Monday, Mar 21, 2011 - 7:33 am:

There is a lot of very good feedback for you, andym, from everyone. After seeing the pictures (and I agree with JoAnn that because they are only a moment in time, they might not fully and correctly represent what the rider is doing), I will add that in both the pictures, it appears that the rider's heel is in the horse. I can't claim much experience with Arabians, and I know they are sensitive, but any horse is not going to appreciate a heel in it's side, all the time. The horse will start out resisting, and eventually tune it out and become dead to the leg.

If you are certain the bit fits correctly, and if you can work on some of the other issues (such as potential saddle fit), it may be worth your time to take a step back in the horse's training. Perhaps put him on a lunge line with side reins. It may help re-establish trust with a steady contact. Perhaps some lessons on the lunge for the rider, on a good steady school horse, to help lengthen the leg and reinforce a steady and relaxed position.

Your horse is lovely, andym.
Member:
andym

Posted on Monday, Mar 21, 2011 - 10:28 am:

Hi to All
Very good feedback and much appreciated. I agree about the video and will put one up on Facebook but it might take a bit of time. In the meantime, I'm listing the suggestions for review with the trainer.
Will get back to the list with video link.
Thanks,
Andy
Member:
lhenning

Posted on Monday, Mar 21, 2011 - 12:24 pm:

I have taught a few trail riding/rental horses to stop head tossing in just a few minutes. Simply hold the reins with contact, horse tosses head, when horse stops tossing or slows down for even a brief moment, DrOp the reins. I mean like immediately throw them down on his neck. Timing is essential. Tossing is more work, they would rather not do it. They just need a reward in the form of release when they don't toss their heads.

Over time, (could be a long time) the reward does not need to be so dramatic. Just lightening the contact at the essential moment is all it takes to give the reward. Again, timing is everything.

Teaching them to stop is easy. Finding out why they toss to begin with is much harder, but it is the most important thing. Your horse will not be happy in his work with that kind of anxiety and I believe it will only increase if not resolved.

Could it be that he was started in contact work before he was ready for it? He should be supple and relaxed and seeking contact, then brought up through his training being asked for more when he has shown he is ready. Being ridden in contact for long periods of time is hard on a body that hasn't developed the muscles to maintain it yet. If his mind and body are stiff and unyielding, he is being made to assume a position that is hurting him. Step back and work on softness and yielding to pressure, as well as flowing, rhythmic gaits. Ride on a loose rein to encourage relaxation.
Member:
shanson

Posted on Monday, Mar 21, 2011 - 3:17 pm:

It's hard to tell from these pix, but it looks to me like the saddle is too far forward on this horse. Does anyone else see this?
Member:
andym

Posted on Monday, Mar 21, 2011 - 10:18 pm:

OK, here's a video of my Ibn Warranty from 2009. He's more noticeable now but my 2010 videos are too large for YouTube. I think however this gives one a good idea of the problem. ed, I can try to reduce the 2010.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBeO_KMUEe4

Andy
Member:
36541

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 23, 2011 - 8:34 am:

Hi Andy,
What I see in this clip is a tense unhappy boy - tight through his back, grimacing with his lips at times, wringing his tail. How does he look at the canter? Will he take a longer rein and stretch his neck at the trot? Does he look this way on the lunge with a surcingle and sidereins(not cranked down but not floppy)? If this clip is even close to what you are seeing currently, I'd be inclined to make a change in the training/trainer because it would represent a marked lack of progress for a year's worth of investment.
Member:
andym

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 23, 2011 - 1:14 pm:

Stacy
Here's a better video made in 2010. I tried to post it before but had a problem with Youtube.
I appreciate your comments. As I said in my first post, although I think it's the bit and handling, the trainer think's otherwise. Your thought of "another trainer" may be a solution.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK7TpEXabG4

or go to YouTube.com and in search, enter IbnTraining Video 2010
Member:
jowidner

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 23, 2011 - 2:18 pm:

Hi Andy,

I just watched both videos, and I agree with Stacy. Your horse looks unhappy and tense, both in the small circles on the lounge and in the full arena under saddle.

In the first video he's so unhappy in his mouth that he keeps losing his forward momentum. Free forward movement is the foundation of all dressage. The watchwords are forward, even tempo, relaxed, and elastic. For over a year now, the horse's training has been characterized by resistance and loss of that happy, forward, elastic movement. Remember that when we work with horses, we train their minds as much as their body. Right now I'd bet he associates work with discomfort. Help him be relaxed and elastic through his whole body and being. If the horse isn't happy and relaxed in both mind and body then you're not going to get the results you desire.

I would go back to basics. Get rid of the draw reins and the martingale. Get rid of the contact and asking for a frame. Take the pressure off this horse. Find a way for him to be happy and relaxed in his work. Listen to the horse - he will tell you what he needs. You might even want to consider going to a bit-less bridal for a period of time just to see if he is happier and more relaxed. Then find a gentle snaffle that fits his mouth. I assume you've had his mouth checked by an equine vet who is knowledgeable about teeth. After he is relaxed and going freely forward with an even tempo, begin with gentle half halts and transitions. You want him to respond to the bit as just another aid and source of help and information from the rider, not as something that causes discomfort or restriction. Sometimes T-touch, especially around the horse's mouth, head, neck and back, will help.

I don't think the horse tripped because he wasn't paying attention. I think he tripped because he was trying to find relief from the pressure from the rider and it threw him off. I'd be tempted to look for a trainer who is more forgiving and listens to what the horse is trying to tell her rather than dictating to the horse on her own terms. I think your horse has actually been very forgiving. He's been putting up with pressure and discomfort for over a year and instead of reacting with a sullen attitude or massive resistance he is still doing his best to figure out what his trainer wants and cooperate.

He certainly is a lovely horse. Once he is happy and relaxed through his head, neck, and back, he will be pretty spectacular! I would love to see a video of him happier and carrying himself with a relaxed, happy pride.

One more thought. How is the footing in the arena? It sound very hard and jarring, and that can add to discomfort, although I don't think its the primary problem here, if its too hard that's not going to help or make for long-term soundness for that matter.
Member:
canter

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 23, 2011 - 4:31 pm:

Andy, I too agree with Stacy and Jo Ann - and what cemented it was when he tripped. He didn't do it on purpose, horses trip sometimes. The trainers reaction to that seemed unfair, and her correction of tapping him with the whip 1/4 way around the arena did nothing but make a tense horse more tense. Even if he was distracted, it's the trainer's job to kindly keep him focused.

He really looks like he's trying to figure things out and certainly appears to be a kind, forgiving boy.
Member:
canderso

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 23, 2011 - 5:41 pm:

What struck me also was that there was only about 2 seconds where your trainer's arms actually bent at the elbow. A straight arm makes for a very hard and unyielding hand... no wonder the poor lad is tossing his head.
Si I agree with Jo Ann and Fran: It may be time for a new trainer.
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Thursday, Mar 24, 2011 - 7:25 am:

Andy, I also agree with the wonderful advice given above from Stacy & Jo Ann, and everyone. When I watched the video I wanted to stop everything, get the rider off, and take Ibn home! (The first horse I purchased as an adult was a leggy 2yr old grey Arab, who I called Ibn, so I got a bit sentimental watching!)

If I were to ride your horse, I'd put him through his paces without ANY rein contact; he's smart and sensitive enough to rode that way with ease is my guess. Find a trainer who understands that a horse can be rode without using reins for keeping the head just so, and keeping the pace just so, and who understands when & HOW to use them for refinement. Things I maybe can't explain as well as others as I am teaching myself that.

Best of Luck to your Handsome Ibn,

Please update us as changes are made.
Member:
36541

Posted on Thursday, Mar 24, 2011 - 8:38 am:

Whew, just watched the second video. Andy, do you ride? Do any groundwork with your horse? It's possible that even a kind novice might be better for this horse at this point.
The saddle is too far forward in the lunge scene, I don't know if it was reset for the riding but will affect comfort in the wither and shoulders. It may be too wide for this horse. The hateful comment from your trainer to the horse about his stumble speaks volumes. If that is the tone with you filming, I wonder what is going on when you aren't there? There's more I could say but I think you should cut to the chase and make a change. From my observations, things rarely get better for the horse if the humans try to work things out. Say your good-byes with the truck and trailer running and find him a new barn. Consider the possibility of getting on yourself and having a new trainer help with lessons. Do something - the horse can't change things for himself.
Member:
lhenning

Posted on Thursday, Mar 24, 2011 - 11:21 am:

The thing I noticed was on the lunge, at one point the horse lowered his head, relaxed, and rounded up. Then the trainer pushed him more. He should have been rewarded for doing what she wanted by bringing him to a walk. She also quit lunging when he was at his worst. What do you think that taught him? No wonder he is confused.
Member:
alden

Posted on Thursday, Mar 24, 2011 - 11:15 pm:

Hi, all good advice above. You have a very nice, kind horse, I know cause if I were him I'd of unloaded that trainer long ago :-)

I wouldn't know dressage if a herd of it ran me down, I do have a fair bit of experience with Arabian horses. But I do have experience with dressage riders, and folks I was around tended to do nothing but dressage training. Something to consider with all horses but specially Arabian's is their state of mind, I find they bore easily and I change things up often to keep them interested.

What came to mind when I watched the both videos is that he needs to get out and let his mane down. Go down the trail a little, lots of training can be done outside of the arena. Lots of loose reins and lightness. Maybe some trail obstacles, get him thinking about his feet.

And above all else lots of rewards, even if it's not perfect, rewards for the smallest tries at first, then build up to perfection.

He sure is beautiful, you are very lucky.

Good day,
Alden
Member:
mrose

Posted on Friday, Mar 25, 2011 - 12:38 am:

Alden, you are so right on! LOL Arabs seem to have a different mental outlook. And a little outside time does everyone good.

Good comments. Trainers tend to take comments as criticism. I hope your trainer will take all these suggestions as constructive criticism. A lot of people can't work with Arabs. Generally speaking, they are very smart and very sensitive and don't like to be pushed. They need to be treated very fairly. They won't put up with a lot of stuff other breeds put up with.

All that being said, some of the comments apply equally to any breed. You always have to leave an open door if you shut another door. If you don't, you'll have problems. I hope you trainer can understand this.

If you haven't looked, there are some great training videos. books, etc. on the proper way to get collection - which is what I think your trainer wants to achieve.
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Friday, Mar 25, 2011 - 7:38 am:

Love your post Alden, lol!

Not to be mean to the trainer, this is tongue in cheek folks, but I'd like to put all riders like her on my arab mare. Willow would start swishing her tail, pinning ears, and start giving little bucks. Those would be warning signs to back OFF as she's on overload and an explosion is waiting to happen. Ignore the warnings and next comes airs above ground, not sure if they have a name or not, but trust me, NOT FUN.

I speaketh from experience: I tried the 4 reins, running martingale, going to be a dresssage rider with this poor horse of mine in our younger days. I did lots of damage before I learned some better ways.

Andy I'd love to hear a report that you and Ibn went out on a trail ride, and he got to let his mane down!
Member:
jowidner

Posted on Friday, Mar 25, 2011 - 12:23 pm:

"I wouldn't know dressage if a herd of it ran me down" Alden, that's the funniest thing I've heard in quite awhile!

I like your suggestions about getting him out and encouraging him to think about his feet. Excellent ideas.

Sara, you are so right, you've got to keep the minds of the clever ones engaged or they will find a way to engage them all on their own, and not in a way that makes life easy for their humans.
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