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  Discussion on Hobbling to break a horses spirit
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Member:
carylann

Posted on Tuesday, Oct 11, 2011 - 8:36 am:

I recently acquired a 15 yr old paint gelding. His history was that he was broke at 10 yr old, then never ridden afterwards. Owned by a elderly lady that couldnt ride him due to health issues but did loads of ground training. I rode him in a round pen 3 times and he felt like he could explode although he didnt. Decided to sent him to a trainer. Got a call that he would just lock up when riding him then bolt. He wants to hobble him ( one leg up then lunge him in safe round pen), lay him down, then without hobble try to ride and work him again. He thinks this is the only way. He did work him for 2 weeks ground training before even getting on him. Anyone have any comments or experience with this approach.
Thanks
Member:
lhenning

Posted on Tuesday, Oct 11, 2011 - 10:18 am:

Find a different trainer. Right now.

I don't think you will ever get the best out of this horse by using force or trying to "break his spirit". It might work in the short term, but over time you will have other problems. The best trainers don't use methods like this because they value a horse's spirit. He just needs to understand what is being asked of him, and that takes better communication from trainer to horse.

My horse has had issues with bolting. I am working with a good trainer and she has never recommended hobbling as a cure. Instead, we work on understanding what makes him bolt. He is afraid and spooks easily, so we began desensitizing exercises and they have helped greatly. A lot of riding too, and the rider must be very calm on him so he picks up that calmness himself.

Your horse sounds very green and usually people recommend starting over as if he were a baby horse. This horse does not sound ready to ride. He is older and it probably will take very slow steps to get him to that stage. I think you need to find that special kind of trainer that is able to handle a different situation like you have.

Good luck!
New Member:
syaler

Posted on Tuesday, Oct 11, 2011 - 10:19 am:

Don't Do It!!!!! True relationships are formed through trust on both sides, the animal and the human. This is not going to do anything to made a horse want to relate to a human. It is going to create fear and mistrust. I would get my horse away from this trainer ASAP. This is NOT training in my book, it is abuse.

Ann
Member:
kathleen

Posted on Tuesday, Oct 11, 2011 - 10:35 am:

Get your horse away from that trainer ASAP. A trainer/owner needs to have a relationship with the horse that is built on trust. As said before, you will probably need to find someone who is willing to start from the beginning as if this horse were a youngster and work from there. Whoever you pick to train this guy must have patience and a genuine respect for horses. Using force causes fear or pain and that is what the horse will remember, not the lesson that is being taught.
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Tuesday, Oct 11, 2011 - 10:39 am:

I couldn't agree more with the comments above!

I have a horse who sounds like yours...He is 9 years old now and we are just starting to have a riding relationship. (lameness and other issues were part of the problem) TRUST and lots and lots of time working on everything, baby baby steps is must. This horse does not know what is being asked of him, he sounds afraid, and is possibly in pain. It might be hoof issues, back pain, neck, saddle fit, all of the above to some extent.

You do not know what his past riding experiences were. It don't sound like it was positive for him, and he is reacting the only way he knows how to...run as if his life depends on it! Which, in his mind it does. AND, he will always to some extent resort to bolting if his anxiety level becomes too high.

With time and the right trainer, he may become a decent riding partner. Don't put a time table on it, it will happen at it's own speed, depending on your abilities, the trainers, the empathy you all have, and if the possible pain issues are addressed.

Be honest with what you expect, what time you have, and abilities. AND, it may just be with THIS specific trainer also. Yet you don't want to pass him around either and make things more anxious for him. (That's why I have my horse yet! Who would want to tackle that??)

Most importantly, STAY SAFE. And good luck.
Member:
dove2

Posted on Tuesday, Oct 11, 2011 - 10:51 am:

Look into Parelli as soon as possible. It's one of the best methods for starting a relationship. There are many certified Parelli instructors who can help you. Better yet, go online and subscribe to Parelli Connect online. You'll have a lot of tools there to help you.
Member:
sdms

Posted on Tuesday, Oct 11, 2011 - 12:42 pm:

Hi Caryl. It sounds to me like your current trainer has heard of a couple of excellent training methods but doesn't know how to properly implement them. I think hobble training is a great idea for all horses but the idea is to teach them trust and to NOT move...not to tie their feet then lunge them. That's not hobble training. In proper hobble training a horse learns not to fight the pressure of something around their legs. This is not only great if you're on a trail ride with no place to tie but also if your horse gets tangled in a fence (or anything else). They learn not to struggle and will hopefully stand there until someone can get them out.

Laying down is also a great way to teach trust BUT it must be done PROPERLY. And, not all horses need this level of training. A horse is never thrown down but each of its legs are worked with, giving to pressure, then the horse lays down of it's own will.

IMO, as with most of the comments above, nothing in training should EVER be used to break a horse's spirit. Horses that have been "broken" rather than "trained" can never be fully trusted.

Just my two cents. Good luck!

Sara
Member:
kathleen

Posted on Tuesday, Oct 11, 2011 - 1:34 pm:

Sara, I agree with you about hobbling and laying down. In the right hands they are valuable training techniques. BUT, I read the heading of this thread, read that the trainer plans to hobble the horse with one foot tied up and then move him around the round pen. Then I read that he plans to lay him down. Because of the owner's description of hobbling to break the horse's spirit and the trainer's plan to hobble in that manner, I was pretty convinced that the 'laying down' was not going to be pretty. If this were my horse, I would not feel the need to explain to the trainer that the methods that he has heard of may be valid but his follow thru leaves a lot to be desired. Thus the recommendation to find another trainer.
Member:
lrhughes

Posted on Tuesday, Oct 11, 2011 - 1:44 pm:

Caryl,
Sara is correct. A trainer can use hobbles to effectively help a horse learn to stand when asked and save him (and you) from injury later. Laying a horse down is not breaking his spirit if its done properly. I've seen the approach used many times by good trainers and, for that matter, veterinarians like my dad. In essence, the reasoning behind laying a horse down (softly) is to teach the horse that he can let you have control without getting hurt. That is, he can trust you. In the wrong hands, this method can be misused. Lunging a horse on 3 legs is asking for a lameness problem; However, some very good trainers start colts by roping one leg and then holding it just enough to maintain pressure (and stay on) until the horse gives, then releasing and letting the foot down to rest.
Member:
sdms

Posted on Tuesday, Oct 11, 2011 - 2:53 pm:

Kathy, sounds like you might have misunderstood the meaning in my post. By no means was I suggesting that Caryl try to explain the proper to hobble train and lay a horse down to the trainer. That's something that must be learned by repeatedly watching it done properly then repeatedly doing it under the supervision of someone that knows what they're doing. In all likelihood, the trainer would not listen anyway. But, rather than tell her to get horse away from the trainer immediately I was giving her information to use to make an educated decision on her own.

It's very possible that the current trainer may be knowledgeable in other areas of training that might be of benefit to this horse. Caryl can simply tell the trainer she does not want these two methods used and if the trainer insists this is the only way THEN she can make the decision to move her horse.

It's likely she's already signed a contract for a set amount of time with this trainer and the trainer may be unwilling to refund any fees already paid. If that's the case, it's probably in her best interest to get every positive benefit out of the time she has. If she's not confident that her horse will not be mentally or physically harmed in the remaining time at the trainer she can always cut her losses.

Unfortunately, dealing with any equine professional that receives a fee is not always as simple as it should be!
Member:
carylann

Posted on Tuesday, Oct 11, 2011 - 8:38 pm:

Thanks to everyone for your input. I did speak with the trainer about my concerns. He assured me that his laying the horse down was in a way that was not aggressive or rough. Hours later he did ride him and made some progress. The hobbling exercise was not as I thought. It was done in a round pen but was not lounged. He was allowed to move at will and later laid him down. I will keep you all updated. If I feel that I need to bring him home, I will.
Member:
dove2

Posted on Tuesday, Oct 11, 2011 - 8:56 pm:

So your trainer had already done the deed while you were thinking about having him do it?
Member:
canderso

Posted on Tuesday, Oct 11, 2011 - 9:22 pm:

Oh Caryl,
Hobbling to lunge?
Laying down?
In my books, this is abuse (and more about the "trainer" than about the horse learning anything.)
But putting this aside, the fact that the trainer went ahead and did it knowing full well you weren't comfortable with the idea is inexcusable.
RUN AWAY (and take your poor, poor horse with you...) because who knows what else that "trainer" is willing to do to your horse, without your knowledge or permission.
Member:
carylann

Posted on Tuesday, Oct 11, 2011 - 10:53 pm:

Again, thanks for your comments and interest. Yes, he already had done this when I talked with him. He did call 24 hrs prior to discuss it with me. I had concerns the more I thought about it and reading the posts. When I called this afternoon he had already worked him some. I spoke with him at length this evening. I will speak with him regularly.
Member:
sdms

Posted on Tuesday, Oct 11, 2011 - 11:27 pm:

Caryl, just out of curiosity, you say you will speak with him regularly. How frequently do you go out to watch how the training is progressing and ask questions in person? Do you ever just stop in unannounced?

No matter how well you know a trainer and their methods it's always a good idea to stop in without warning to see how your horse looks and what is being done. Again, JMHO.

Sara
New Member:
lvgirl

Posted on Wednesday, Oct 12, 2011 - 12:01 am:

I was a trainer for 20 years. You can stop in unannounced but that doesn't mean you will get to see your horse worked. Out of respect that needs an appointment. You can check in to see if the horse is happy or depressed. If his bodily condition is good etc.
Member:
dove2

Posted on Wednesday, Oct 12, 2011 - 7:48 am:

I, too, sent my first horse to a trainer. He talked like he knew what he was doing, and he took a lot of money, but all he managed to do was stress my horse ( who I later discovered had HYPP - which the seller did not disclose and even delayed sending his registration papers until we had bonded with the horse). The trainer was recommended. I have since learned that 'buyer beware' is the only way to navigate the horse industry. The horse succumbed to HYPP based on these people and ended up being put down.

You have more help than you may know. I hate to sound like a broken record but your horse needs YOU to create a relationship with him. There are step by step instructions through Parelli (I've tried numerous trainers' methods and have come back to this one for the best and kindest method - although you still need to remember to be a firm parent-like partner.). If you use the same love/discipline that you might on your own three year old child, you will develop your horse into a true partner. No one can do that for you. The first order of business is to establish trust between you and your horse.....both ways. IMHO, you should start by retrieving your horse from this "trainer."
New Member:
syaler

Posted on Wednesday, Oct 12, 2011 - 7:55 am:

As one who trains using operant conditioning I have several "red flags" go up with your statements from your trainer. First of all why would one even want to break an animals spirit? Isnt that why we love the equines like we do; for that part of their amazing spirit? I can't imagine what goes on in an animal's brain who depends on flight or fight to be forced into a submissive position like lying down. That is cruel and unusual punishment in my book. I think it will only serve to teach the horse that humans are unpredictable, scary beings. I know I said this already, but I believe this is abusive behavior on the part of the trainer. . . NOT training. Good trainers train with their brains, not with pain, physical, or mental pain.
Member:
kathleen

Posted on Wednesday, Oct 12, 2011 - 9:47 am:

Caryl, I'm so glad that you had a good talk with your trainer and you both seem to be on the same page. Out of curiosity, was wondering about the heading on your post "Discussion on Hobbling to break a horse's spirit?"
Member:
sdms

Posted on Wednesday, Oct 12, 2011 - 10:12 am:

First, a couple of comments then I'd like to offer some thoughts to debate the opposite side of this issue than most people are taking.

I completely agree with what Sannene said. If you show up unannounced you can't expect that the trainer will DrOp what s/he's doing to ride your horse. You can see overall how your horse is doing. And, if you know ahead of time the trainer's schedule (do they train in the morning? Afternoon? Not on Wednesdays?) you can DrOp in during their regular training time. If they're lunging a horse with a leg tied up you know to run! If you show up a couple times during regular training hours and you can't find the trainer start asking questions.

Again, I am not saying Caryl shouldn't find another trainer but several comments after the heading caught my attention. First, Caryl admitted that the hobbling exercise was not as she originally thought. So, if there was a misunderstanding on that point were there other misunderstandings? Caryl also said that the trainer discussed the hobbling and laying down with her then she started to question it after the fact. This leads me to believe that Caryl gave permission but later had doubts. So, if that's the case, the trainer did not act against Caryl's wishes. The fact that the trainer called to discuss it before hand is a confidence booster. As I said before, hobbling and laying down can be positive trust building exercises IF DONE CORRECTLY and we can't say for a fact they weren't.

I'm also with Kathy on questioning the heading of the discussion. Did the trainer actually say the reason for hobbling was to break the horse's spirit? Or was that a concern that Caryl thought of after the initial conversation? If the trainer voiced that as the reason for the exercises then, yes, I say get the horse the heck out of Dodge!

Since we don't know Caryl, the horse or the trainer and we're discussing this over the internet it's tough to know exactly what the facts are. We have to read everything that's posted from different angles.

Caryl was wise enough to ask the opinion of other horse people so I'm sure she's wise enough to decide what's best for her horse whether that's leave him where he is or find another trainer. It's my opinion that we can learn something from every trainer or clinician even if it's what NOT to do. We've all made mistakes with our choices for our horses, too.

The good thing is that, for the most part, horses are very forgiving creatures. Even if we make mistakes we can usually correct them over time.
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Wednesday, Oct 12, 2011 - 5:21 pm:

My friend had a trainer who "laid down" her horse and it made the horse's problems worse plus created some additional ones.

He had been there for nearly two months and the horse was getting increasingly worse instead of better.

When she was at the trainers one day a neighbor came over and told her that she had witnessed the horse being laid down and he had caught his head under a fence. She advised my friend to get her horse out of there because she was tired of seeing him being mistreated.

My friend did just that and took the horse to a trainer who uses the Parelli type of approach and the horse is doing well again.

My Vet tied up the hind leg of one of mine once to aid in a sheath-cleaning project. I expressed concern about that idea but he insisted he had never had a horse who hadn't given to the rope.

Wrong. My horse fought to pull his leg free while hopping around on the other hind leg. Vet ran to truck to get a knife to cut the rope but didn't have one up to the job and had to stand there and manage to get the leg untied.

Both of my horses fetlocks were quite swollen after this exercise and I had to ice them. It is fortunate that the damage was not worse than it was.

I agree that teaching a horse to give to a rope around his legs is a very good idea but it should be done in a safer manner and it is NOT necessary to tie the leg up to do so. Likewise, I would not put hobbles on a horse's legs until he or she had first been trained to accept a loose rope placed around the back of the legs that could be quickly removed if necessary.
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Wednesday, Oct 12, 2011 - 5:26 pm:

In my opinion, "breaking a horse's spirit" is a horrible and a cruel thing to do.

And who wants a relationship like that with their horse?

Maybe horses can be fixed after they have been mistreated but it has been proven that they don't forget and I believe that mistreatment in some instances could ruin a horse permanently or cause a certain amount of long-term damage.
Member:
carylann

Posted on Friday, Oct 14, 2011 - 8:07 pm:

On my way to get my horse. We all can sleep better now. Decided to get him back early as he was not making the progress I had hoped. Thanks for all your posts. Going to start from the beginning. I will post an update soon. Want him to settle in before I do too much.
Member:
sdms

Posted on Friday, Oct 14, 2011 - 9:28 pm:

Great news, Caryl! Let us know how he progresses.
Member:
tdiana

Posted on Friday, Oct 14, 2011 - 10:42 pm:

Thank Goodness the horse has been rescued from this "trainer".
Member:
kathleen

Posted on Friday, Oct 14, 2011 - 11:04 pm:

Please keep us updated on his progress, and we always like to see pictures.
Member:
frances

Posted on Saturday, Oct 15, 2011 - 1:27 pm:

I think we're all hugely relieved!
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Saturday, Oct 15, 2011 - 1:36 pm:

Good luck Caryl, with your horse.

Let us know how it goes.
Member:
canderso

Posted on Sunday, Oct 16, 2011 - 1:20 pm:

Caryl, best of luck with your horse and do let us know how it goes. Horse training is a really tough world to navigate because you just don't know who to trust ... and everyone has a reason for doing what they do.

The truth is that the more aggressive methods can be effective - we see too many horses at the age of 3 and 4... even 5 and 6 doing extraordinary things to think otherwise. From what I have seen, these horses are put through a program that makes ... or breaks... the horse. World class professionals simply cannot afford to go any other way; they don't have the time and don't have the money.

My personal opinion is that most of us aren't making our livelihood from our horses, aren't world-class athletes and neither are our horses. So we have time for the gentler methods that, while taking longer, can bring more than adequate results. We can choose to take our time and to go for the kinder methods.

I apologize if I offended you by being so blunt earlier but it was clear to me that being started at 15 years of age, your horse was not headed for world competition.

So kudos to you for choosing the slower, kinder route. You made my day!!!!
Member:
gramsey1

Posted on Sunday, Oct 16, 2011 - 6:31 pm:

For what the horse does under compulsion . . . is done without understanding; and there is no beauty in it either, any more than if one should whip and spur a dancer.
~Xenophon

Classical Riding works because it has stood the test of time. It works without fear or force and most definitely without gadgets. It's working with, never against, the horse.
~ Sue Morris

If the art were not so difficult we would have plenty of good riders and excellently ridden horses, but as it is the art requires, in addition to everything else, character traits that are not combined in everyone: inexhaustible patience, firm perseverance under stress, courage combined with quiet alertness. If the seed is present only a true, deep love for the horse can develop these character traits to the height that alone will lead to the goal."
~Gustav Steinbrecht

Horsemanship is not merely a matter of bodily skills, but is based on scholarship and, therefore, is a matter of the mind and intellect. Good horsemanship is based on proper character development and, therefore, is also a matter of mentality and spirit. Without the correct attitudes and insights, there cannot be the right sport.
~Charles de Kunffy

Dorrance, Hunt, Roberts, Lyons, Parelli, Brannaman expanded the tent. Brannaman uses hobbling that Roberts considers violent. Hobbling is extreme. Can this kind of restraining be justified? What are the circumstances? What are the intentions?

The best thing I try to do for myself is to try to listen to the horse. I don't mean let him take over. I listen to how he's operating: what he's understanding or what he doesn't understand: what's bothering him and what isn't bothering him. I try to feel what the horse is feeling and operate from where the horse is. - TD

The human is so busy working on the horse, that he doesn't allow the horse to learn. They need to quit working on the horse and start working on themselves. They might get it done, but they don't get it done with the horse in the right frame of mind. The horse usually gets the job done in spite of us, not because of us. - RH

. . . there are more and more people who have no access to classical equestrian education or lack the will to pursue it, riders who are intellectually lazy, are physically incompetent, and will gladly promote the notion that there is a new kind of dressage akin to technology.
~Charles de Kunffy

Brannaman tells NPR's Neal Conan that horses have traditionally been "broken" by trainers, or taught to obey their masters' orders through harsh means of discipline. But Brannaman says he prefers to "start" horses.

This has been an excellent thought provoking thread.
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Sunday, Oct 16, 2011 - 7:07 pm:

Wonderful quotes above!

It's too bad that so many have to train horses to perform in some specific time frame, and that $$$$ makes the rules.

When we train horses, it should take as long as it takes, with each step being perfected before the next is attempted. Instead, some methods, IMO, seem to be the equivalent of taking our child from riding a bike to driving a car in 6 months! And I don't mean learning to ride that bike at age 16, lol! And we wonder why the horses break down physically and mentally?

'Nways, I also thought this was a great discussion, and good luck Caryl with your horse.
Member:
carylann

Posted on Sunday, Oct 23, 2011 - 8:18 pm:

Update on TC, the paint gelding. He did have some swelling develop in his front leg. Swelling is gone but is sore. Was initially distrusting of people but is doing better. Im using John Lyons method. He did well the first round pen lesson, but 2nd time not so good. Didnt work him long as he became sore. He is still isolated in separate paddock as my other horses are being very aggressive to him. Hopefully that will change. I hate keeping him separate but dont want him being ran around either. I have one gelding that I may try to buddy up with him. I originally got TC on trial. Ended up buying a mare. Sent TC to the trainer in hopes he would have some foundation and be able to be placed easier. Well, now I dont have the heart to let him go anywhere. More updates to come.
New Member:
syaler

Posted on Sunday, Oct 23, 2011 - 8:36 pm:

Please consider positive reinforcement training for your horse. Running him in circles does nothing to give him reason to trust you. I run a donkey and mule rescue. All the animals who come into my shelter are trained using positive reinforcement. It has not failed me yet. We use it for everything from body handling to trailer loading. It works by giving the horse a voice in the conversation. Please check out Alexandra Kurland's book Clicker Training Your Horse. I know we all have our preferred methods of training. I like this one as it is non confrontational, it sets the animal up to succeed and punishment is not needed. It helps to develop a rich and lasting trust, a bond.
Member:
sdms

Posted on Sunday, Oct 23, 2011 - 8:59 pm:

Caryl, sounds like the trainer didn't really know what he was doing and you made absolutely the right decision in bringing TC home. Best of luck and I'll be watching for future updates.
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