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  Discussion on Defiant 5 y.o? Other issues. Assaloosa perhaps? (Long)
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Member:
adriaa

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 30, 2011 - 12:45 pm:

Hello all HA friends,

I had let my membership lapse but realized it is such a great site. I am going to try to make this as short and concise as possible but it has been a long journey.

In Jan of 2010 I purchased a 3 1/2 y.o. Apply/Holsteiner, with fantastic movement, bone, everything. He was a pretty bomb proof 3 1/2 yo and everyone was so amazed that he was so calm. At any rate I rode him for 5 months, not asking a lot just working on forward, balance etc. He had some forward issues he'd stop, not want to go, nappiness I guess. But he was ok, but as I rode him he started to become more and more hard to bridle, itchier in the cross ties, mounting block issues etc. Figured he's young etc. and I did ground work with him, worked with the bridling issue. He was getting better.

I then brought him home and he had 6 months off in the pasture.
In Dec. I brought him to a new barn that does training and is a "dressage barn" which is an hour away so it was more difficult to be there all the time. When he first got there they were so amazed how calm, cool he was, bomb proof etc. So he started in training, they are a very good barn, wonderful trainers, I like them a lot.
Their deal is that they would train him to a certain point that they felt suitable that I cold start to work with him as well. Which is great, I am not a trainer and to train a young horse properly you need a good experienced hand. He started out ok, they are very consistent and gentle, he slowly became more and more nervous, difficult to saddle, difficult to bridle, spooky, nervous etc. Then... this is a horse that had never bucked, he started bucking on the lunge, this was not for fun, but a real "get this thing off me" kind of broncing, as if he had a lion on his back. Then one day he got my trainer off in one huge bronc, out of the blue. So I then got the Chiro out to look at him knowing that this was not behavioral but a real reaction to pain that he had probably been enduring for a while but just snapped. The chiro said he had a subluxated SI Joint, adjusted him, he had an ulcer, and he was also under developed muscularly. He had such huge bone, but not enough muscle to move that bone so he was also fatigued. Did a course of Ulcergard, kept him on Ranitidine for a while.
Stepped back a few paces in training and was just doing gymnastic exercises etc, cavaletti. He wasn't being ridden, just lunged etc. There were no significant changes, still the bucking, usually one direction, and he looked so stiff and so in pain at times. Got the Chiro back and he did a Thermal scan and found a cold spot on his withers right where a saddle might sit, depending on the saddle. He said it could be an old injury that was fibrous and could become irritated with constant pressure. He did Mesotherapy on his withers which was an relief for him, he was relaxed, no saddle problem. Did the Mesotherapy twice. Got a new Schleese saddle fitted for him, described all his issues, Jochen dealt with them. Still bucking. No one could really find anything really wrong with him, sound, no spinal issues, we had addressed saddle issues, addressed the wither issue, but his pain related behavior continued even when it was determined he was not in pain, this is months where he is not being ridden, desensitizing him. So, finally my trainer said she really did not know what to do, and was she just wasting time and money and he is not improving at all. He was deemed unrideable. So I got the other Chiro vet, who also does TCM to come and evaluate him. Her determination was that she could not find any pain responses anywhere, we went through the process, he bucked, we tried several things, tight girth, loose girth (he hated that) He was defiant, fresh and had quite an attitude and in TCM he was an angry Wood Horse and was imbalanced, I'd say ah yes, he's pretty unbalanced. So, she prescribed Liver Happy herbs, I have used TCM herbs before and they did work so I said what the heck. Plus, we decided to take Cris right back to square one, start with round penning, respect issues, and we decided try a western saddle on him, by gum he loved that western saddle! Plus the herbs were working, he improved steadily. Finally Hollie felt she could ride him again and she started riding him in the western saddle very slowly, just walk, he walked for a month. The herbs worked because we tried an experiment to take him off 2 times and each time he reverted back to crazy.

Jochen Schleese came back for another fitting, he bucked with the Schleese saddle but Jochen worked for a long time with him and finally got the saddle to fit right, plus one of those anatomical girths with the large pressure area. Hollie, said he moved so well in his newly fitted saddle! No more western saddle. At this point she is trotting, outside in the arena, doing well.

But he is getting brattier, she never lets him get away with it, but he's making her work harder before she gets on, she always ends a session with riding, no matter how long it takes, to get him to listen. He cow kicks in the cross ties, bucks at times in the cross ties. He is also being bad in the pasture, being more aggressive to other horses, he was always a clown and quite a rough player, but never aggressive, so he's been moved. I didn't mention he's very sensitive, I think he's a lot like the princess and the pea, his skin seems sensitive sometimes, gets weird about brushing.

Sorry so long, but it has been a long trip. So, after seeing to every possibility, addressing pain, addressing behavior issues, bringing his training to square one, as if he had never been backed before he is still testing, but really testing now, way more defiant and bold. Is he being a 5 y.o. who has discovered this new found power? Is he being an Assaloosa? Is this a new phase? Are Appaloosas really that stubborn? There seems to be a lot of Appy jokes out there...

A friend said he needed more Mommy time instead of more trainer time :-)

He's also a very sweet horse. I don't think he's ever had anyone treat him badly, I'm sure he had huge holes in his training. He is great when I do groundwork with him, backs, yields, walks, trots verbal cues, obeys me. But that is getting boring for him and I'd like to step up the ground work but am not sure how to. He also wears his heart on his sleeve, and at times just seems to need reassurance, but then on the other hand he's being defiant.

Does anyone have any ideas beyond what we have done that would help, insight into this guy, who is like like Jekyll and Hyde.

Sorry this was so long...
Member:
mrose

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 30, 2011 - 1:17 pm:

If you stated I missed it, is he a gelding or stallion?

Did you have his teeth checked? Are/were there wolf teeth that need extracting?

Horses like this are so difficult to figure out. Maybe Ann will comment since she has Appy crosses she might have some insight.
Member:
adriaa

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 30, 2011 - 1:47 pm:

sorry I didn't specify, he is a gelding, although he was gelded late, at 2, but people have said this shouldn't make a difference. He did have to be removed from contact with the mare pasture when he broke a fence trying to see Maya...

He had his teeth done last Jan, he did have an extraction done, so I think no wolf teeth. I know he is due for a dental soon.

I have read that Appys are really stubborn, but once you gain their respect they are extremely true and loyal.

He really is like a little kid, or teenager, stubborn, defiant but also needing the reassurance of mom and I know he's given the barn a run for their money. Like my teenage son, one day he gets out bed happy, the next he's a grumpy teenager.
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 30, 2011 - 7:20 pm:

Hi Adria,

I don't know if you were a member when I was discussing all the issues I had with Tango? Freision(Never remember how to spell that dang breed!) Morgan/Qtr mix. SUPER sensitive, bolted all the time, couldn't so much as sneeze around him. Dangerous to be around anytime the saddle came out of the tack room. Went back to ground work over and over, desensitized til I could do it all in my sleep. One step forward, 3 back. Over & over...yet he was/is the most loving, curious, goofy horse I've ever met. And he's known the basics for YEARS as far as ground work goes.

You sound like you have done everything possible to check out physical issues. I am a hoof fanantic, so I have to ask: Is he barefoot? Shod? Good heel platform? Bars correct? balanced? Hope he's barefoot!

Have you tried adding magnesium to his diet for the sensitivity issues? He may benefit from that just to get him to focus while you work through this.

And have you and the trainers, also looked at how you approach him in every interaction?

What worked with Tango is I added 5000 mg of Magnesium daily this summer. Really learned new things about trimming, after he recovered from an abcess, he is very sound, hooves are better than ever.

Then I approached him with a totally different point of view. And hay pellets in my pockets! I made sure I was 100% confident, never reacted to him jumping or humping up his back. A few pellets from each side when I first get on him. (That I started after he bolted due to me touching him on the right side of his rump! Bolting meant bucking, meant more running,and more bucking! I am not young enough for that crap anymore)

In other words, I approached him as if he was any other horse I was getting ready to tack up and ride. Ignored any reaction I did not want, praised him for being good, gave a few pellets. I don't know how to expain it other than to say he went from being one scared, and sad (they don't want to be scared!) horse, to having the calmest eye, rode him yesterday with gunshots going off in the woods, cats racing around outside the arena, back cinch on (that was a major problem for him for years!) and he was just calm as can be.

I think he just had to learn it wasn't necessary to spook, to be worried, to bolt. And your horse may have lots of learned behaviors that started from real pain issues, or more training than he could handle mentally, and he just doesn't "Know" he don't have to act the negative ways that he does.

I would also ask very, very, little of him when riding. If all he does one session is want to stand still, flex him, move his rump around his front end, front end around his rump. Make him do SOMETHING but at his level. I don't think we have any right as riders to expect more than the horse is capable of giving at each point of their training, and he sounds really overwhelmed. That IMO, shows up as stubborness, and depending on the horse, can get ugly! Don't assume because he's such and such an age, he should be able to do whatever others his age can do. I just noticed you said he's 5; very young yet! Treat him as he's 2 for a bit. The more you hurry, the farther behind you get with some of these challenging ones.

I am not a Parelli expert, but I also did some at liberty training. Started out just as a "what kind of mood are you in today, do I dare get on you?" thing, and I still do it. Tango can move around the arena, we practice some things, he comes to me, gets his pellets, if he's silly, he leaves again. When I get on the mounting block, I "ask" him to come and stand the correct way, and let him offer his back to me. Don't know if it's "Correct" but it works for us.

BTW, he's 9 1/2 years old!! And we just started riding together SAFELY a couple of months ago! Took 8 years, well, didn't ride him as a yearling, but you know what I mean, lol!

Now I wrote you a novel ;) Hope something I shared helped. Best of luck, I hope he becomes the partner you are hoping for.
Member:
adriaa

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 30, 2011 - 9:01 pm:

I'm glad you wrote a novel, I don't feel so bad, but sometimes what needs to be said and explained takes some time and words!

I think you hit the nail on the head about that he had more training than he can handle, who knows how he was started, and obviously the training he was getting was too much for him and his big goofy self. He was not being worked hard, half hour at most, but it was consistent and due to his big frame and the lack of muscle tone at the time it was too much. He wasn't skinny, but he is a hard keeper, eats a lot and still wasn't gaining, I think all the food just went into growing! Also, he probably had learned behaviors from pain before I got him, possibly he started acting this way and that's why he was sold. I think that the pain in his withers is/was something that went away with rest, but returns when being ridden, very difficult situation. So far it hasn't returned, and possibly the more muscle he develops over his top line it should protect any issues there, I hope. I know he's a baby still, and I don't want to push him. He does not get worked hard, for along time he was just doing ground work, then slowly at a walk and now he's up to trotting, so we are trying to go really slowly.

I'm glad Tango has come so far with your guidance, I can hope that Cris matures as well.

I have read about magnesium, I could try that on top of his other stuff. He's on his Special Liver Herbs and Succeed for his gut issues.

Thanks for the insights, I know there is lots of time for us, I just get discouraged that he's one step forward two steps back.

Adria
Member:
lrhughes

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 30, 2011 - 9:09 pm:

It appears to me that he's the boss and does what he feels like. I like what Ray Hunt and his guide, Tom Dorance, said..."Make the wrong thing hard and the right thing easy". That seems fundamental in dealing with big, strong horses that can get very full of themselves. Buck Brannaman uses a similar approach. You seem to be making the right thing easy, but not making the wrong thing hard...and I don't mean whipping/etc. But a cow kicking horse is not funny...nor is one that bucks and bolts.
New Member:
syaler

Posted on Thursday, Dec 1, 2011 - 8:21 am:

Angie, I think your post is brilliant! As the president and shelter manager of a non profit donkey and mule rescue I hear terms like defiant and stubborn a lot. I don't buy into either one of those descriptions. I think an animal tries to communicate with us to the best of it's ability. It's very difficult as we speak different languages.
I use operant conditioning on every animal that comes into the rescue. Many of you know oc as clicker training. The basic tenet being "behaviors that are rewarded will be repeated". "Behaviors that are ignored will usually extinguish themselves". The only thing that makes this different than what Angie has used as a sound, a click or a word, is used to "mark" the behavior; to let the animal know Yes, that was what I wanted and a reward is coming....I'm happy to walk you thru the basics if you are interested. Good luck with your horse Adria!
Member:
adriaa

Posted on Thursday, Dec 1, 2011 - 10:03 am:

Ann, at one point when we were at a loss, when there was no evidence of pain and it was just behavioral, he couldn't stand to have a saddle on his back even though it didn't hurt and was just sitting there. I was going to bring him to a behaviorist who used clicker training, and she had helped some pretty confused horses get over serious issues. I did not go that route since we decided to just treat him as if he had never been started, and re-start him.

I can do some basic clicker training with him in certain situations where I have control, i.e. cross-ties, grooming, saddling, bridling.
At this point he pretty much is under the tutelage of my trainer, whom I trust and has her own system with him which is working,
He has come along way since Feb.

At this point all that I am able to do with him is grooming and ground work. The clicker training could work for his behavior in cross-ties. He acts like he has ADHD, he is very mouthy, playful and wants to grab the lead line, cross-tie etc. all very cute like a dog holding his own leash, but I have been told not acceptable. So in the cross-ties, he fidgets, paws, plays with his lead, plays with the line, stamps his feet etc. I think his skin is VERY sensitive, brushing gets him worked up, but he likes the soft stroking of the super soft finishing brush. But, the vet said she didn't see any evidence of skin sensitivity. I am hesitant about the treat part of the clicker training, he can be a treat hound and get pushy, he's already lippy.

LRH, yes he is full of himself but in a very juvenile way, but in his bossiness he does back down, he tries to get away with stuff, but actually never gets to (probably frustrates the heck out him, he probably thinks, "how come we always have to play your game, not mine".) He really does not ever get the reward for his unacceptable behavior. Maybe eventually like Ann said they will extinguish themselves when he realizes it just isn't worth it.

I have to say, he is quite respectful when I do groundwork with him, he backs, he yields (forehand is bit tricky), he'll put his head down for me, to the ground. It's the whole riding scene that he is not ok with, he stops when I stop, mostly.

We have tried to make the right thing easy yes, but making the wrong thing hard has been difficult, so his bad behaviors are just ignored and we continue doing what was planned, like Angie and Tango, just get on with it and pretend that you don't see him acting out and nothing is amiss.

He is not a bad boy, just young and is having a rough start to his career.

Ann, I would love to hear any suggestions you might have for clicker training and for example in a cross-tie situation. He behaves pretty well just on a lead line,

thanks for so much good info
Member:
adriaa

Posted on Thursday, Dec 1, 2011 - 10:23 am:

He's also a very good boy about leading to and from pasture, no pulling, jigging stuff like that. It really is the whole riding process.

Brought in = Cross-ties = saddle and bridle = being ridden and in his mind this = pain.

Need to break this cycle or somehow get him to realize this process is NOT going to hurt.
Member:
syaler

Posted on Thursday, Dec 1, 2011 - 10:54 am:

Hi Adria, I you will email me privately: awfirestone@gmail.com, with specific things you would like to work on I will be more than happy to help you. Re: your most recent post I would start by trying to make Cross ties= good things happen. Forget about the saddle and bridle for now. Get yourself a small cone or even a plastic soda bottle. Present it to him...he will sniff it, click and treat. Click can be just a tongue "cluck". Present treat while placing "target" or cone behind your back. He will be "muggy" for a bit, until he figures out the rules of the game. You can feed the treat from a bowl if that is easier, just remember he has to do something to "earn" his treat. Repeat this exercise until he will touch target if you hold it a bit higher, or lower, or to the side. When he is reliably doing so add the cue, "touch", or whatever you choose to call it. Once he is solidly "touching" every time you ask for it...start to c/t randomly, not every single time as you will have been doing up until this point. This will make the behavior stronger. After doing that for a few sessions, so that you are SURE he understands, go to just a verbal reward, or a "good boy"

You write that he is fidgety on the cross ties; So you will be looking for a quiet moment. ...click and treat for even a nano second of body quietness..non fidgetiness. <g> Try to focus on what you DO want him to do, rather than what you DONT want him to do. One of my favorite mantras that I have learned from Alex is "It takes as long as it takes", so you might as well enjoy the ride. I find it hugely rewarding to ME when the animal figures it out and starts to enjoy the game. I hope you will as well.
Member:
juliem

Posted on Thursday, Dec 1, 2011 - 10:58 am:

I hesitate to even bring this into the discussion, but my experience with western performance horse trainers (cow horse, cutting, reining NOT pleasure) is very different than how this horse is being trained. They would start him over, but he would be working much harder--five is actually pretty mature. His naughty behavior would result in him getting his butt worked off! He would be sweating from ear to tail! Good behavior would result in rest, which he would be seeking! Western trainers just have zero tolerance for "naughtiness"! A cow horse trainer, assuming a vet has ruled out any physical issues, would say this guy is being pampered. It's time for him to earn his oats. I've heard them say that horses started with no real demands for good behavior and work get resentful when it is asked for. I'm not saying this is the solution or the way to go, but you've sure tried everything else. I don't mean western trainers are abusive, but they do demand respect. They don't use whips, spurs and bit to achieve this--they make the wrong thing hard--sometimes really hard. And the right thing is always rewarded, either with release of pressure or just moving freely, or with rest. Sometimes a ride just ends when the horse does something well--trainer steps off, loosens the cinch and leads the horse back to the barn.
Member:
syaler

Posted on Thursday, Dec 1, 2011 - 11:20 am:

I mean no dis respect but the above post makes me cringe! That type of "boot camp" training is abusive and does not take learning theory into consideration at all. If one understands how the animal's brain works, they have a much better chance of getting inside of it.

What is "working his butt off" going to teach the animal? He is not being "naughty". That is our "human" description of the behavior. He is behaving in the manner he is for a reason...either he hasnt internalized the lessons, he is in pain, or there is something else going on.

I would much prefer to have an animal who is behaving well because it's rewarding for him to do so; he is in a partnership with me, not because he is afraid of what will happen to him if he doesnt comply. }
Member:
juliem

Posted on Thursday, Dec 1, 2011 - 11:47 am:

Well Ann, if this horse continues to get worse in his behavior (bucking and bolting!) he will become dangerous. Then what kind of life will he have? This "boot camp" as you call it may save his life. Have you ever had experience with a good performance horse trainer? They are much more into how a horse's mind works than you may think. Just sayin....
Member:
lrhughes

Posted on Thursday, Dec 1, 2011 - 12:35 pm:

Julie, your points are very good and our ranch horses are happy and know how to do hard work. They are our partners and when we need their help, it can't be up to them. There is a ranking in horse behavior and a leader is the boss. Not mean, but not willing to be ignored or stepped on either...Just watch a mare with her foal, or a herd of horses on pasture. The horse in this post will hurt a rider one day if his behavior isn't corrected. Pressure and release are an art and become very light when done well.
Member:
adriaa

Posted on Thursday, Dec 1, 2011 - 12:38 pm:

Julie and Ann

I think there is validity in each camp. Oh and just to clarify, he's not a bolter just a bucker:-) Don't want to throw him completely under the bus! Obviously horses respond to positive reward, be it a click and treat or the release of pressure.

Cris is probably at this point getting a mix of both camps, he was possibly spoiled in that after he bucked the trainer off he wasn't ridden, (because he kept bucking, even when not ridden) we actively sought out options and reasons for this behavior, finally arriving at different problems which we addressed. So, he should be good to go now, right? Yes, but still other behaviors crop up. It took a long time to figure it all out.

However, he is not allowed to get away with certain behaviors, when he is worked, he is saddled up, goes to the round pen or not depending on his mood, it changes, when Hollie feels he's ready and is listening and respecting her, she gets on. The ride could be a few times around the round pen, walking through the barn to the outdoor etc. She, at this point, will not end a session unless she gets on, otherwise he would have won, so she will work him in the round pen until that point, regardless of how long it takes. So yes, there could be a day when he needs to be "worked out of it" and days he's fine and she feels comfortable to just get on in the barn and skip the round pen.

At this point it's not ALL about the riding, it's about the process, and getting him to accept this process, that yes, he is going to be ridden, that is his job. Kind of like my 13 y/o son has a hard time accepting that homework is his job! He'd rather be playing games, Cris would rather be in the pasture.


But he is NOT being worked hard till he's sweating, breathing hard, being chased around the round pen to wear him out.

Part of some of the issues is there is no consistency in his behavior, everyday he wakes up on a different side of the bed.
Member:
lrhughes

Posted on Thursday, Dec 1, 2011 - 1:15 pm:

For me, horse whose ride-ability depends on his mood is a very expensive hobby and likely to hurt his rider if his mood changes. A rider should be able to halt bad behavior before it gets out of control on a decently trained horse. Performance quality will vary on good and less good days, and riding objectives may change with that in order not to sour the horse. The horse described here is big, and energetic and should be treated like an athlete....conditioned up to where his abilities can take him. Most horses get bored or soured with nothing but round pen and arena work. They need something to go and do. Working on new tasks from the ground & on board (jumping, walking through obstacles, doing new patterns is helpful, and going out for a "trail ride" is a reward for most horses that are kept penned. At least that is my experience and that of many fine rider, including professionals and non professionals, who I've known through many years.
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Thursday, Dec 1, 2011 - 4:52 pm:

I actually studied the clicker training, and for me, I just felt better doing it with the treats, not having to worry about a certian sound, or carrying the clicker. I feel I am following the principles with Tango. It made something "click" in his head, ha!

One thing I do want to say that needs to be really given some thought: Think outside the stall, think outside the barn, think outside the arena. Every horse is different. Personally, I think Tango & I would have avoided tons of issues had I never heard of Clinton Anderson and his "respect" this and respect that, and move your feet. DID NOT work with Tango! Desensitizing scared him...Period. No matter how I approached it..so guess what? I just quit. (And now he's fine with most things...go figure)

Question everything you do, find a new way to do it. Why does he need to be in cross ties? What's wrong with saddling him in the stall? The arena? Maybe he needs to SEE the saddle coming, and can't see it when in cross ties. I did hours of saddling Tango loose. I still saddle in the stall, and he is BETTER than is the cross ties.

Don't have an agenda, make it play time. Take walks. Let him follow as if you are walking a big dog, go EVERYWHERE, and don't make it work. Don't challenge him, just be a passive leader. Don't saddle or bridle him either. Make him stay off your heels, don't let him run you over, or graze, it's a walk. Pure and simple.

Klaus Ferdinand Hempling's "It's not I who seek the Horse, the Horse Seeks Me" really spoke to me as far as what I could do differently to be the leader in our relationship. I am sooo past the lets work them til they are dripping with sweat. Been then done that. Guess what? The horse didn't learn a darn thing! A horse has to be calm to learn IMO. And needs to be calm to trust. A calm trusting horse will do work, even in pain, I think, for their human partner. I guess I feel if they feel understood, they will try to do what we are asking. I know, many will give me flack for putting too many human emotions here, but geez, it sure helped me with my troubled guy.

Tango is mouthy too. He's also like a giant red Lab, lol! It's his personality, and I let it shine through. In fact, laughing at him seemed to help with many of the issues. I swear, he even eventually came to the conclusion he was being silly over nothing.

I could type for hours about our adventures. If it was going to happen to one of our horses, it was going to happen to Tango. What changed HIM was me changing MY expectations, my thought pattern. I am not an expert, basically I can start a horse in the basics, and after that I have a lot to learn as far as the finer points of riding go. Don't really care though if I fail there, or don't win a ribbon, it's playing with horses for me. And being SAFE. I love the challenge of figuring out the difficult ones. Of trying to see things through their eyes.

I always say remember: The horse is ALWAYS right. It's up to us to figure why he's doing what he's doing. Unless he's seriously got a screw loose, and is dangerous to everyone, he's really just misunderstood!

Off my hay bale now ;)
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Thursday, Dec 1, 2011 - 7:15 pm:

"She will not end a session unless she gets on." And then you go on to say he will have "won" if she didn't get on.

See, this again is thinking that IMO, needs to be changed. We want a partnership, and if we are thinking winning or losing, how can it be a partnership?

Please don't misunderstand me, I know exactly where the trainer is at! I used to set goals, complete with checking my watch because we needed x amount of minutes on warming up, x amount of time trotting, etc. Now I watch my horses, that's where the at liberty comes in first. Is s/he off? Energetic? Bored? Corny as it sounds, I "ask" "hey, are we ready for riding today?" With Tango, oh boy, I got lots of NO...H*** NO!!

This doesn't mean I don't ask anything of my horses, I certainly do. Yet we got farther in a few weeks than I had IN YEARS of doing things the "old way." Especially with my challenging guy.

This doesn't mean I am going to only ride him when he's in the mood, not even close. That was just a small part of the big picture. I went from 20-30 minutes of review work, and most days NO RIDING, to walking around my arena, him following me with reins looped around the saddle horn, then I get on. Sometimes he gets some pellets, usually on the right side since he's stiff to the right. It's all low key, nothing is set in stone. Except I stay safe!

If your trainer isn't willing to do things differently, then I hope you can. I really think that if you all quite making riding the focus, you will get on with the riding part of his training sooner!

I want to take this guy on, ha ha! I have my challenging one figured out now, I am a bit bored, lol!
Member:
adriaa

Posted on Thursday, Dec 1, 2011 - 7:28 pm:

Angie so much of what you say rings true. It is all about the horse, they are all different. I have a TB mare who was trained extensively by a student of Buck Brannaman, I have to say she would probably be a basket case if it wasn't for those grounding exercises. She can do all those things in her sleep AND I can pop on her and ride her after 2 years off, a few ground work session, in a rope halter. I never saddle her in cross-ties, bring all the tack, horse and brushes to the arena.

I used to tack up Cris in the arena at the other barn, we'd do some ground work and tack up. IMO I prefer to tack up in the arena, or stall or wherever.

On the other hand, the Cults of Clinton and Parelli, get tiring. The last few times I watched Clinton he was quite rough, and I always wonder why the Parelli's horses who must be the best trained horses ever after ALL those games, still act out and kick people! Ok, Linda's horses, and can't handle umbrellas.

Cris, on the other hand is pretty bored with the games, he can do them, willingly for me. I'm sure he'd have no problems with tarps, umbrellas and the like, nor plastic bags.

Interestingly I have an older Morgan mare who was a Park show horse then broodmare, who was never trained in NH, does have problems with suspicious objects, though she's perfectly happy to doze on the cross-ties. My TB mare is like "hey, what do you have there, let me sniff, give it a nip or two"

The problem I have with Cris is that I feel I am somewhat under the control, not really control, of my trainer, but she has a system that seems to be working for her, I can ask her if she's willing to saddle him in the arena sometimes. I can saddle him in the arena any time.

Actually I'm pretty frustrated, I haven't ridden him in over a year, he was in training, then the day that I was going to ride him was the day he exploded and bucked Hollie off.

And no, he doesn't have a screw loose, I DO think he may have had some traumatic episode prior to my having him, which haunts him, too bad we can't do some PTSD therapy! He's not dangerous to everyone. He was transported from Washington state to NY when he was maybe a year and a half, that alone could have messed him up!

thanks for your ideas and thoughts they are very helpful and also reassuring.
Member:
leilani

Posted on Thursday, Dec 1, 2011 - 7:48 pm:

This from Mark Rashid.

One of the ways he does this is by a training idea he refers to as "passive leadership". Recently, Mark was asked to define a "passive leader", and how it effects horses during training.

Well, here it is in a nutshell...

There are two types of leaders in a herd situation. The alpha, or lead horse, that rules by dominance, and passive leaders that lead by example. The passive leaders are usually chosen by other members of the herd and are followed willingly, while alphas use force to declare their place in the herd.
Passive leaders are usually older horses somewhere in the middle of the herd's pecking order. They are quiet and consistent in their day-to-day behavior and don't appear to have much ambition to move up the "alpha" ladder. As a result, there appears to be no reason for them to use force to continually declare their position in the herd.

Alphas, on the other hand, are usually pretty far from being quiet and consistent in their behavior. They are often very pushy, sometimes going as far as using unprovoked attacks on subordinates for the simple reason of declaring their dominance. As a result of this behavior, the majority of the horses in the herd will actually avoid all contact with the alpha throughout the day.

The reason for this avoidance is that horses are designed to use the least amount of physical energy possible throughout their normal daily activities. A good example is a horse that spooks. A horse may jump at something that is unfamiliar, but he won't always run away from it. He will only run away if it is absolutely necessary. By doing this he is saving energy in case he really needs it. This is a "safety valve" that has helped the horse to survive for over 50 million years. By not using energy unnecessarily, they will be able to use the stored energy in case of a real emergency.

By following a passive leader who uses the least amount of energy throughout the day, (and that isn't constantly forcing the other horses to use theirs) the horses are not only able to stay quiet and content, but they are also helping to insure their own survival.

Passive leaders have "earned" that particular title with the other horses by showing them they can be dependable in their passive behavior from one day to the next. In other words, they lead by example, not by force.

This is the type of behavior that I try very hard to base my training on. Leading by example, not force, and by being as consistent as possible from one day to the next.

I guess when it gets right down to it, it's more of an attitude than a technique. It's being able to give the horse the benefit of the doubt that they will try and do things right for you, and not constantly reprimanding them for things done wrong.

Mark Rashid
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Thursday, Dec 1, 2011 - 7:55 pm:

I think it's Buck that said they never forget a bad experience. Tango had plenty of them, not on purpose, just the way things worked out with him. So I think those things are always there, they just have to be convinced that their human won't let anything bad happen to them. And you are at a disadvantage if you have a trainer working with him, since she is not YOU. No matter if your riding styles appear to be the same, you will do enough things differently that he will notice. At least I believe that.

I don't consider myself a follower of any of the clinicians any more. I learned the hard way that it's not to my advantage, and in many cases a disadvantage to my horses, to just think whatever they are preaching is the only way. Horses have too many different personalities, same as people do.

Many people told me to get rid of Tango...to whom? He wasn't safe. My hubby refused to watch me work with him, he thought I was going to get killed.

I used to cry I would get so frustrated. I could see the fear in his eyes. What I couldn't figure out was WHY it was there, and how to get rid of it? He wasn't BAD, he wasn't mean...he was just scared. Of noise, and movement above him; those 2 things make it very hard to make a good riding horse! He was super ticklish to cinch up. Feet would go flying trying to trim his hoofs. Ugh..just all kinds of things that were his way of protecting himself. Yet a puppy in the pasture, always comes to visit me, and I never had treats in the pasture. I felt he was begging to be understood. And I think Cris is too.

He sounds like he actually has many good qualities! As for bucking the trainer off...maybe you need to re-think this trainer? Maybe he's never going to be what you want him to be? Are you hoping for a show horse? You said dressage barn I think. I used to think Tango might do better in the circus, lol!

Good luck. Post a picture of Cris? Love to see him.
Member:
juliem

Posted on Thursday, Dec 1, 2011 - 9:15 pm:

It's not at all unusual to see a cutting horse rider reach down and take the bridle OFF. The horse will continue to do his job often cutting two or more cattle out of the herd at the barest suggestion from the rider--that's a partnership. But it's a partnership where the horse isn't the managing partner. Sounds as if Chris may be the managing partner. It's hard to know what's going on, but very few horses have the luxury of taking years to get safely under saddle. If all a horse has to do to be cared for all his life is basically learn tricks, then that's all he's going to learn. Nobody loves ground work more than I, but it really isn't going to give most horses a free pass to a lifetime of love and care. I've raised and sold a fair number of young horses, and none leave my care until either they are safely under saddle (walk, trot, canter on a loose rein, whoa, etc. soft and light) or I'm assured they will be.
I'm not trying to say I know what this horse needs. I don't know him or his situation. But it sure seems like what's been going on for a long time isn't working.
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Friday, Dec 2, 2011 - 8:31 am:

"I guess when it gets right down to it, it's more of an attitude than a technique"

That sums up what I was trying to say in my very wordy way! IMO, all the great trainers out there understand that, and understand the role of a passive leader.

Julie, your last sentence is one I repeated to myself many times. What I had always done with young horses wasn't working with this one special one. As I said, I am not an expert, I've maybe started a dozen horses? And fine tuned a couple dozen more? Over 40 years? Sure don't qualify me to be a trainer. Yet I did not want someone to get on this horse and cowboy him to teach him a lesson...it just didn't seem right. It may be right for Cris, but it makes me wonder if he would blow up again at a later date? I think back to square one, no demands, then baby baby steps will get Cris where his owner wants him to be quicker than what is being tried right now.

You are correct that few horses have years to get their attitudes adjusted and get going well under saddle. (My words, not yours I know) But I wonder...what IF all horses were trained with the idea that it would take as much time as it takes, instead of some industry standard? Think of race horses, show horses, reining horses. I would love to see the day each horse is treated as an individual and trained according to his mental and physical state. I understand breeders can't afford to take 5 years when 3 years seems to be the age that a horse can be "winning."
Member:
adriaa

Posted on Friday, Dec 2, 2011 - 10:29 am:

Here are some videos of Cris, they are old and the one where he is bucking and having trouble is the day of his bucking off Hollie.

The one on the lunge w/o tack is right after, he's clearly happy to be tack free!

https://www.me.com/gallery/#100130
https://www.me.com/gallery/#100131
https://www.me.com/gallery/#100138
Member:
adriaa

Posted on Friday, Dec 2, 2011 - 10:32 am:

that may not work, try this

https://gallery.me.com/goosgrl7#gallery
Member:
lhenning

Posted on Friday, Dec 2, 2011 - 11:15 am:

Angie, that is so true. It takes as long as it takes and my Cutter has also needed longer to "get the picture".

Adria, if what your trainer is doing is working, I'd keep her doing it. Many of the behaviors you describe were the same for my horse. I tried using food to teach him but did not like the result. I truly believe that in his case, me giving him food looked to him like I was submissive to him. He most definitely did not need any encouragement in that type of thinking. Might work for some horses, but it did not for mine.

When you ask how to make the wrong thing difficult, try thinking of work vs working harder. It is harder for a horse to turn a small circle than a large one. It is harder for a horse to trot than walk. It is harder to back up than walk forward. More energy might be a better way to look at it. It is not done as punishment and there should not be any emotion attached. It can be done in groundwork or while riding.

I think being able to feel what is happening in the horse's mind is the key to it all. Not easy, but we must read their expressions, their body language, and their moods appropriately to know how much pressure they can take at any given moment. Too much pressure and they react by bucking, bolting, rearing, and all those undesirable ways. Working as a team means they give willingly and that means we must not ask more than they are willing to give. We can up the pressure and get to that next level of cooperation by using harder work to make it sensible to them to make the easier choice, but only after they learn to give to that pressure to begin with. Rewarding good behavior with rest, pats, and praise does work.

When you speak of the pain cycle and his association of riding with pain, I think successful rides without pain should help to change this over time.

I'd get him off the cross ties for now too. Work on building his trust by setting yourself up for success during his grooming. Try to end with him calmer than when you began. If he prefers a brush, use it and only switch when he seems totally accepting of it and perhaps for a few quick strokes.

One thing I would do is insist on him standing still. (You can do this with or without having him tied up). If he moves, move him exactly back where he was. Not with sounds, just simply and without emotion, put him back. Watch that his hooves go back to the same place. Little things like this are another dominant gesture of you putting his feet somewhere. He may resist but your key is to stay unemotional. Keep doing it over and over. It takes as long as it takes, but always end on a good note.

There are many non-verbal clues we give horses that tell them we are in charge. Years ago, I would go in the pasture with a lead rope and calmly stand among the herd. I noticed that Cutter would occasionally, for no apparent reason, push another horse away from their spot. The other horse would run a few feet, then go back to eating. Cutter would take that spot and all was well. I began to do this to Cutter a time or two when I was out there. Push him away with my lead rope and stand on his spot. Little things that say, I'm your leader.

The moodiness so describes my Cutter. One day to the next was completely different. Much of it seemed due to tussels with other horses or he just did not want to be ridden instead of eating grass. Your job is to get him in a better mood. Sometimes it is only a little better, but try to end more happy than you began. There were days I'd have to be so praising of Cutter just to get a tiny bit more happiness from him. He might back up on a lunge line, something he easily knew how to do, but I'd make a big fuss and tell him what a good boy he was and give him a little scratch on the face. Maybe in his mind he'd think "oh, I didn't have to do much to get that praise, maybe this isn't so bad after all". On a less moody day I'd push a lot more because I knew he could handle it.

Give him a job to do. Keep him attentive and focused on you and always doing something. If he does something wrong it is because he isn't doing the job you gave him so then he should work harder. No emotion, just a smaller circle then back to the bigger circle. Again, based on his mood of that day, that is how you decide how much work to push on him. If he is defiant and belligerent, I'd put him to work good and hard but reward good behavior with rest. If he is stiff and resistant I would be more asking and work for softness, with a lot of praise when he softens even a tiny bit. If he's spooky and scared I would ask for complicated things that make him really focus on me. You have to work the horse you get that day. He may have been an angel yesterday, but today the devil horns are your task and yesterday no longer exists.

Consistency is key and being the same person with the same demeanor and the same expectations will build his trust. Cutter is also a very sensitive horse and that is how he'll always be. That can be bad, as in these situations we describe, or it can be wonderful because he has become so very light that I barely move my seat and he responds. It has taken us many years but it has been one of the most rewarding journeys I've ever taken.

Oh, and I would hope your trainer soon has you riding him too. You can only learn by doing it yourself. For now, groundwork is a good confidence builder.
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Friday, Dec 2, 2011 - 3:34 pm:

Very well said Linda!

I do lots of backing, head lowering, dressage type stuff. I am not into the correct terms, I guess shoulder in, haunches in is what I do. But each exercise is a step, or 3, not backing across the arena. Ask for the canter, 3 strides, walk again. I have a horse I need to keep focused on me or he blows up. And he must be kept calm. I have complete faith my silly guy will be a great riding partner now as we progress. All mistakes will continue to be mine.

I am waiting for quick time to load (Just took it off my computer yesterday!) so I can see the video clip.

My greatest joy when it comes to working with horses is I only think about the horse; my mind just can't be on any of the worries we all face day to day. I thought I was doing a great job reading a horse..ha ha! Tango proved me wrong time and time again. It's like you have to let go of everything, be in the now, and as Linda said, it's all done without getting emotional. Well, except for those "good boy!" comments ;)

Oh Linda, if I give Tango anything complicated, he really looses it. Even weaving cones, oh boy. Some days we can weave them all, other days, I am lucky to make a circle around the perimeter of my cone set up. Once I feel any tension, I know to back off, no matter what my agenda was for us to accomplish that day.
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Friday, Dec 2, 2011 - 3:39 pm:

Quick time wouldn't download for me! I can't see the videos, but I can see the horse, and he looks to be a very handsome guy! I love his face and his eyes. To me he does look like he would keep a person on their toes, lol!

Now off to figure out what our computer needs so that updates are allowed...
Member:
adriaa

Posted on Friday, Dec 2, 2011 - 8:32 pm:

This should make it easier :-)

https://www.youtube.com/user/goosgrl7

Yes, well said Linda! what my trainer is doing is working, she did have to think out of the box a bit for him and she has done really well with him, she is working with him very differently than she might another horse, and he is improving slowly which is good, it's just that I need more tools in my box to help him along.

Linda, Cris is also very sensitive and because of that he is very sensitive to the aids, so if one is heavy on the aids at all with him it would probably seem like shouting.

Also, being the breed that he is, he is only wearing an Appy jacket, but he really is Holsteiner, and they don't mature until at least 7, so he is still growing and packing on muscle. Unlike a QH who would be pretty mature at 5 since they are compact, efficient horses. He is a big gangly teenager!

I am going to start doing stuff off the cross-ties like I would do with my other horses. I don't want to confuse him if I am doing different things with him, he does behave differently with me than my trainer, she is all business, I am Mom and although I don't allow any funny business, my aura to him is different.

Good news is he had a really good session yesterday. I do want to compete, he was bred and purchased to be a sport horse, competing on a low level is my goal with him, but definitely not at the risk of his sanity. That I will not do, so we see how he progresses, if we get over this hump and he gets more secure and comfortable.

So far he is not being pushed, and we are going at his speed, I know some say that is letting him decide but since he has had some trauma it's what is needed.
Member:
lrhughes

Posted on Friday, Dec 2, 2011 - 10:02 pm:

As one of the suspected "some" I think Linda has made good comments as have others. You have clarified your perspective as the commentary went along and I'm personally, at least, less worried that you will be a casualty...I know that the sport horses are slower to mature physically, and watching him on the lounge, I thought your fella was playing more than being unwilling as the bucking was mild...?? Good luck as you go forward. I too go to a different place when I ride...for me, it isn't a matter of forcing so much as teaching and learning the partnership.
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Saturday, Dec 3, 2011 - 8:27 am:

Hey Adria, thanks for providing another way to view the videos, that worked for me.

I LOVE your guy! He is fun to watch, shows so much curiousity and personality! That bucking on the lunge? Ah, just being playful. I have another gelding, Cody, who tends to do that too. He also bucks in playfullness while I am riding him, I did get a BIT annoyed with that trait and he had to learn that was not fun for me, lol! My first ever attempt to canter him? I did not make the 8 second bell! It was like I was going off forever.

Cris may have been protesting being all tacked up with the saddle and side reins? Or the whip? The trainer is busy with whip movement while he is cantering I noticed. I think a super sensitive horse may find that overwhelming and add to his acting out. I do like one of Clinton Anderson's suggestions: DON'T NAG YOUR HORSE. I love word commands, caaaNTTER, followed by a snap of the whip if needed, then nothing else until I ask for another transition.

I think you two are going to be just fine together. He's very intelligent looking, and walks to the beat of his own drum is all. As long as you and the trainer remember he's not cut from the same mold as the rest of 'em, he'll take you far.

Best of luck, keep us posted please on your journey.
Member:
adriaa

Posted on Saturday, Dec 3, 2011 - 9:47 am:

Thanks, he is a pretty fine looking guy. He is very curious and a goofball, but he does have the attitude that goes with it, an in your pocket horse, literally, if the Parelli's were to Horsenality him, he'd be a Left brained, introvert.

Actually that bucking is the response to his pain, it's like he can't move out, his back is stuck and he's having trouble with his leads, cross firing behind, crow hopping, kind of like an itch he can't scratch, so he bucks instead. When I first got him he never bucked in play on the lunge which is why I knew something was up when he started, it's pretty much "get it off me". He won't do it with no tack, as you can see in the video with no tack he is relaxed, moving out and his canter is freed up.

Moments after that video is when he bucked her off, in a huge, 2 ft off the ground, spinning bronc, she never had a chance. I KNEW he would never do that for spite or no reason, so it was definitely pain related. I would post that clip but, for confidentiality reasons I won't.

I have to say that the ONE thing that I sort of disagree with is the side reins, I think they are a little heavily used. However he is extremely high headed, bracey and hollow, I think more as a protection mechanism to what ever injuries he's had, so when under saddle to avoid rounding his back, he hollows to avoid contact with the saddle, but as I say I hope we have fixed all that for him. So I keep asking her about the side reins... I understand her reasons, it is helping build his top line and develop those muscles. You can see in the video he is straining to brace under saddle, trying to avoid the saddle. Poor guy.

Thanks for all your kind words and encouragement, hopefully we are on the right track finally after a few missteps and figuring out what was up.
Member:
jowidner

Posted on Sunday, Dec 4, 2011 - 9:58 pm:

Very nice horse, Adria. Here's my two cents worth: He does look like a horse who is going to be slow to mature. The difference in the two videos, one in side reins and one without, is telling. He just doesn't look physically ready for the frame that the side reins require, and his behavior confirms that. With his head free he moves happily and freely forward. With the side reins, his carriage changes completely: you can see the tension creep into his head, neck and back. Horses buck when they can't move forward. He was not physically able to move forward in that frame without pain, so he went up instead of forward.

Give him time to mature. Lots of long and low and hill work until he has the physical ability to carry himself with more collection. Its very common for modern day dressage riders to ask for too much collection too soon, and they end up with behavior problems, injuries, and an imitation of self carriage rather than the real thing. Your horse is telling his trainer, "I'm not physically ready for what you're asking me to do."

Help him grow up with his manners by insisting on proper manners in a firm and fair way. Send him out on long trail rides with a mature and experienced horse who can show him how a grown up horse acts. Give him time now and you will reap rich rewards later. He's an impressively nice horse. Good luck!
Member:
syaler

Posted on Monday, Dec 5, 2011 - 8:26 am:

I've had a crazy busy few days and have DrOpped out of the conversation, but just read the post by Jo Ann J. It makes soo much sense. I am enjoying this discussion and hoping for all the best for Cris and Adria.
Member:
adriaa

Posted on Monday, Dec 5, 2011 - 10:06 am:

Thank you Jo Ann!

I am on the same page about the side reins, as I posted earlier. I have hinted, and so did the vet. When he exploded the chiro vet came and basically said that he didn't have the muscle to do what he was being asked. He is more fit now, but she still uses the side-reins all the time.

I don't want to offend her, since I do like her a lot, but... I need to state my concerns, urghh I hate this,

He IS an impressive horse, he has beautiful natural gaits.
Member:
lrhughes

Posted on Monday, Dec 5, 2011 - 12:30 pm:

Jo Ann's comments really capture both the current most visible problem and the most direct solutions. Good advice.
LRH
Member:
npo33901

Posted on Sunday, Dec 18, 2011 - 6:26 am:

Side reins ? Nagging ...hill work ...
I am of the same opinion as commented above . There is an excellent book written by a German vet /rider Dr. Gert Heuschmann,
The fundamental principles of anatomy . Beautifully explained all the mechanics of muscle function .
Anja Beran ,classical rider works closely with him. Both are to be found on google .
These two people will give you many answers .
Adria, you have a beautiful horse there . Follow your instincts and listen to your horse .
Member:
frances

Posted on Sunday, Dec 18, 2011 - 8:04 am:

Thanks for the Gert Heuschmann tip Anna-Marie!
Member:
npo33901

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 20, 2011 - 7:08 am:

LL , glad you like it .
Adria, very good way how to make a horse to put his head down on his own is ... lead him in hand - with a halster or if he is very spooky with a lunging cavesson, and lead line over poles on the ground . First let him smell and examine everything and see they are there . put one here and there and 4 like for cavaleti work . Judge his reach/space of his walk/trot , he should put his feet in the middle between the poles) Walk him over in both directions and when he is doing well, try to gently trot . He will look down and will be careful where he is placing his legs . After few days when he is accustomed to this scenario, try it on the lung line. NO SIDE REINS !! He cannot look and STRETCH his back/neck muscles with side reins .... I recommend to lunge using the whole arena - lead him (on a long line) in straight lines , circle few times again straight line , circle and diagonal - change reins - circle . It makes lunging more interesting and eventually you can even try in canter .
BUT NEVER CANTER OVER POLES . Approaching the poles, bring him back to trot or walk . All this makes it interesting for the horse - they love it . Changing the tempo often is the best excersise for his muscle development . HALT him occasionally and praise him - use your voice after he'd done well over poles... Give him rest/stretch in between often and don't work him too long .
Ask you trainer how can the horse stretch and relax his muscles with side reins .
I have one high headed horse . When he puts his head down on the lunge, I always verbally praise him .

If Cris is very jumpy, lead him with a friend - short lead lines attached on both sides = I mean one person on each side . Take it slowly - he will soon pick it up and you will manage by yourself .
Adria , if you do this, will you let me know about the progress - ?
Member:
adriaa

Posted on Thursday, Dec 22, 2011 - 10:10 am:

Anna-Marie, I do know of Gerd Heuschmann, I've watched one of his DVD's and also know of him through his partner/associate Jochen Schleese of Saddle fit for life. I did discuss my concerns about the side reins with my trainer and she understands how I feel about them, I really don't like them, she somehow feels more secure with them on... (personally I would feel more secure with out them, since I think they make him tense) since he does stick his head in the air and when he does that he can be hard to handle. However, the other day Cris was tacked up by the other trainer there WITHOUT side reins and she rode him and he was fine, so hopefully she will continue to use the side reins less, and then only on the lunge for short bits.

He is not a crazy horse, not really jumpy, when I work with him he's fine. We have worked him over trot poles, on the lunge line, so he knows all of that. I have been working with him in the arena tacking him up there he is fine.

He is very wary of going under things, like through doors etc. I still think something happened to him at some point.

I am trying a test since I am not completely convinced he is pain free, I talked to my vet and he ok'd putting him on a course of Bute for a week to see if anything changes, if he is the same then obviously it is totally behavioral, and we work with that. He still has problems on the left lead, canter going left is still a serious problem.

I'll keep you posted. Thanks!
Member:
leilani

Posted on Thursday, Dec 22, 2011 - 11:28 pm:

Adria,

Try and get a copy of the DVD 'Buck' about Buck Branaman. Might answer a lot of your questions. Take care.
Member:
lynnea

Posted on Wednesday, Dec 28, 2011 - 12:21 am:

Adria, I have been reading the posts and there are some excellent suggestions...I am not a trainer, but I have had some of my horses over the years in the hands of trainers that resulted in me having to bring them home to deal with many problems that they did not leave with. One mare I bred and raised was very energetic, sweet and willing when she left. When I got her home I couldn't even put a foot in the stirrup without almost landing on the ground as she sped off like the speed of light. She pinned her ears, tried to bite and kick me when I approached with a saddle. I spent a lot of time trying to keep her with me while I tried to get on...when I made it it was a most unpleasant ride, she would get behind the bit and roar....she wanted to do nothing but go fast and did not want me to direct her. After much thought, I decided to reverse everything. I put her in a hackamore, a bareback pad and climbed on the fence to get on. Believe it or not ..it worked like a charm. After almost a year of walking her around and trying so many things, this is what worked. I rode her everywhere like this for a year and then I went back to the saddle. No problem. I used the fence to still get on for a couple of months and then put my foot in the stirrup and all the other stuff was gone. I guess my point is , even though I know no one probably wants to ride your horse bareback, but if possible, I would give it a try.....It just may answer the question of it being pain or if the saddle is a reminder of something bad that happened to him..the girth could also be a problem . If he can be ridden without the saddle, just a person..it might answer a lot of questions......and I agree the side reins are restricting him too much. There is a better way to lower his head. He is a beautiful horse!!!! I couldn't help but offer my experience, even if it sounds illogical for you.
Member:
adriaa

Posted on Wednesday, Sep 26, 2012 - 10:01 am:

Hi,

I just wanted to give everyone an update on my guy Cris. He is doing REALLY well now. Shortly after these posts my trainer started riding him without side reins. In Feb. I started riding him, he has progressed steadily since then as have I, he is not an easy horse to ride and we determined that he REALLY needs to know that his rider will take care of him no matter what. So confidence is a must.

He is becoming more and more relaxed, round and accepting of contact, his head tossing, braciness is demising. Long and Low is still a distant goal, but he's getting there.

We did our first test in early Sept. and he got 70.94% and Reserve high score!!! He's bending better and canters are more balanced. He still has issues with left lead, his stiff side. He is maturing as well I think.

here's a link to a video and I'll post some pics.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2kwz6Y9aSI&feature=plcp


It's good have success stories huh?

AdriaCris
Cris2
Cris3
Member:
dres

Posted on Wednesday, Sep 26, 2012 - 1:53 pm:

Thank you Sara for turning me onto this post.. Adria i too have a Appy W/B that has given me fits like no other horse i have owned... and i bred this guy to be my colored Dressage mount .. Don't want to be long winded, but his tude i believe is just what you had said above .. Tom needs a firm, consistent confident rider on his back or he will take advantage in any way he can .. His MO has been to just shut down, plant his hoofs not go forward.. He would ring his tail, pen his ears and cow kick your leg .. BUT let him jump and he will jump the moon for you..
He shows promise as a 4ft- 5 ft jumper but the flat work will get in his way ..
Recently he did a rodeo buck that he has only done one other time and he tossed me like a sack of potatoes .. i broke my back / my ribs / lacerated my spleen and did some deep bruising to my hip... "oh but he never bucks like that"
I don't have the funds to keep putting into him and to find a trainer that will go slow but firm with him. They are hard to find .. he does not need to be worked to death to get his rest kind of training but he does need a firm rider that can tell him to put up or shut up ..
Anyway i am glad to see you are riding your horse as this was my dream with Tom .. i am throwing in the towel tho now ..
Here is a video of him 1.5 years ago when i introduced him to jumping .. he was slow to mature as well he is 6 this year and just finished growing .. mentally i think he is still maturing ..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8nV7EvScLU

On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spot..
Member:
adriaa

Posted on Wednesday, Sep 26, 2012 - 2:15 pm:

Ann, Tom is gorgeous, what a beautiful mover!!! He's got one of those beautiful canters. My trainer and I almost threw in the towel with Cris, but I just wasn't in a position to throw him away and get ANOTHER dressage horse. It was his 5th year too. He's now 6 and he is maturing physically and mentally and he more accepting of his job and that it's going to be ok. He gets better everyday. He is still what is considered "cold backed" and interestingly the cold does bother him, he needs to work some of the funky humpies out on the lunge! I use a Back on Track pad which supposedly radiates heat back to the horse. He likes it.

I would say don't throw in the towel!!! Check his back, check the saddle fit, double check the saddle fit, see what a chiro says. I went through all of that with Cris, I don't think they do those bronco bucks for fun. That's what Cris did to my trainer, launched her 2 feet in the air. After he did it he was clearly upset, sort of traumatized like he didn't really want to do it, but just couldn't stand it any more.

Maybe now that Tom is 6 he'll get better, maybe give him a few months off.

Good luck, he looks too good to give up on
Member:
dres

Posted on Wednesday, Sep 26, 2012 - 2:47 pm:

Thanks Adria, no back issues with Tom , no pain issues either ... his bucks are pure i don't want to go... we have to ride him with spurs... the TWO times he did the BIG bucks was becus he was pissed at us putting the spur on him to GOOOOOOOOO...
He too, is very what i call TB skinned , sensitive to flys and sweat .. but loves a good firm curry.. He is not spooky and takes to new places easy .. in fact .. i had my best rides anywhere but his back yard ... he is a adrenalin junkie ... so plenty of forward at new places.. but that goes away to after a few visits ..
Wish i could keep him ... but he is to talented to keep as a pasture baby sitter and i just don't have the $$ to keep putting into him .. as i have two more that i ride and show ... arggg .. he was tho, to be my next super dressage star ..
He is slowly varnishing out ... he will someday , again a late bloomer be like a blue roan only his head will vanish out too ..

On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
Member:
dres

Posted on Wednesday, Sep 26, 2012 - 2:50 pm:

BTW .. he DOES have the best canter .. in fact he was the most balanced baby i put under saddle ..but the canter is to die for ..

On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted with spots..
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Sep 27, 2012 - 7:24 am:

Congrats Adria, thanks for the update.
DrO
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