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  Discussion on Vaccination issues
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Member:
theresab

Posted on Thursday, May 3, 2012 - 11:33 pm:

Well I finally found a spot that I've been neglecting in training my 2 yo gelding, vaccinations. Had my vet out today to do yearly vaccines. These aren't the first shots he's had and in fact the prior years vaccinations went very smooth so I didn't think anything of it. Long story short vet ended up bending two needles and barely got one of the vaccines into him and I ended up with a black eye. By the time I recovered from my sucker punch with his head, they ear twitched him to finish the vaccines. Not the way I wanted things to go. I worked with him a little bit after they left trying to poke him gently with a small stick which resulted in me getting bit. Gave him and I a break to recoup and read the article above to break it down for him and I to start again.
I started with the syringe, opened up near him- didn't phase him a bit. Rubbed syringe on his neck and over his body- again no problem. Wiped him with a small damp cloth, no reaction. Started pinching him along the neck not real hard- that made him slightly uncomfortable but he quickly relaxed and almost seemed to enjoy it. I tried my small stick (less than 2" long and thin, it will snap before going through his skin) and he reared and tried to bite me again. So I've pretty much narrowed it down to the needle stick and inject based on his reaction to me and the vet.

So my question is, without turning my horse into a pin cushion, how do I simulate the needle stick and shot without suffering any additional injuries. I was thinking about pinching harder to get him use to the discomfort. That way I could meter the increase.

My vet said to send him out to be broke so he gets use to discomfort ( spurs etc). If he over reacts to a needle I don't just want to send him off to have someone else risk injury riding him. Obviously I will let my trainer know about his over reaction even if I get a good handle on it.

His ground manners are pretty good, we are working on personal space, but he saddles, ground drives, leads, ties, tarps, clips, trim feet no problem. I joked that he fearless because he's never been hurt and it came back to bite me.

Beyond pinching is there a next level I should take it to? I don't want something sharp that will break the skin, but I would like to desensitize him to discomfort.

We did have a swarm of honey bees come through our pasture and he got stung about a dozen times or so, I'm guessing this drama started there and I didn't think about it. He had a bee hovering around him in the pasture (I was on the otherwise working on the yard) and he went completely ballistic, running, rearing, biting at it. That's just an excuse for his behavior as it is, how do I undo the damage?

Thank you in advance!
Member:
theresab

Posted on Thursday, May 3, 2012 - 11:53 pm:

I would like to add, when he bit me, he was swinging his head around to bite at his side and connected with my elbow. He didn't break the skin or even leave a mark.

However, it does bring to mind when I do ride him, what if another bee comes around or a horse fly. I don't want him to go ballistic. Should I download bee noises to my phone and play the around him? Any other ideas?
Member:
lhenning

Posted on Friday, May 4, 2012 - 10:43 am:

I can't help much about the bees, but I do not believe you should send him out to get broke so he gets used to discomfort. If it were my horse, I would first try to get all those ideas of his past experiences out of my head and start with a clean slate. He can learn to accept this, but you have to believe that or you are making excuses for him. Bees and shots are two different things.

I like what you were doing with the stick and breaking each step down. Clicker training is very effective with this situation. You really don't even need a clicker, just have several carrot coins (slices) in your pocket. Touch him with the stick and keep touching until he is relaxed then say "good boy!!" and give treat. Move on to the next step once he accepts that one. You don't have to do all in one day, but slowly lead up to the poke. You are looking for him to be relaxed in each of these steps so don't reward if he is anxious at all. Also, take your time with the simple steps even if he seems uninterested. You are teaching him that his relaxation is rewarded when you say "good boy" and that in turn means a treat will follow.

When you do poke him, if he rears or moves or anything, that is OK. (Use a long enough lead line to give him room to move). Don't reward but don't react either. Wait until he calms a bit, then go back to the first steps. If he again progresses easily through those, then poke him. I would use a light poke, not as much as a shot would be. Again, don't react to negative but look for any sign that he is calmer about it than the last time, if so, say "good boy!!" and give the treat. By this time, you have said that so many times that he knows a treat will come so he is wanting to hear it. That is when he is trying to work with you and all you need to do is make the pokes small enough that he can stand still, then treat. Gradually make them stronger and stronger.

This might take an hour or several training sessions, but it takes as long as it takes. Timing your "good boy" to relaxed behavior is what will teach him that is what will get him the treat. Horses are smart and they usually figure this out pretty quickly. If he isn't picking it up, then it could be your timing is off.

Do some websearches on clicker training and if things aren't going well with this, try to teach him something simpler. Then progress to the pseudo-shots once you have mastered the technique.

Good luck!
Member:
mrose

Posted on Friday, May 4, 2012 - 11:01 am:

I totally agree with Linda. You don't send a horse out to a trainer to "get him used to pain." A horse should never feel pain from a trainer, except as a BRIEF response to either agression or refusal to obey a command, once he has actually learned the correct response to a command. And, I stress "brief." A sharp reprimand, then release with a chance to react correctly; and when you get the correct response, release and praise. Spurs correctly used are a way to give a cue when the initial cues are ignored, or when a sharp, instant response is required. When used, they should give a quick poke, not a rake. No one should use spurs until they understand the correct way to use them. A good trainer will teach a horse from the ground how to respond to cues, then use the same cues once the horse is under saddle. I think Dr.O has an article on training here on HA (which I haven't read) and there are many good tapes, books, etc. I think a lot of them have been mentioned in other discussions on this site.

Imo, your horse was not being agressive, but acting in response to perceived pain or anticipation of pain. There is a difference. Bees really hurt, esp. if you have a sensitive horse. He shouldn't be punished for this reaction, but, as you are trying to do, taught that when you approach him with a shot or anything else, it is different than being attacked by a bee or biting fly. Linda's hints are good ones. Remember in spite of his size, he's a baby and it will take time. Imo you'll live to regret short cuts and quick fixes.

Good luck with him. He looks like he's worth working with! He's a cutie.
Member:
theresab

Posted on Friday, May 4, 2012 - 6:27 pm:

Thanks for the info and ideas. He definitely understands "Good Boy", that's been the cornerstone of all the other desensitizing I've done, so I think I'm on a good path there.

I think I'll trade my stick in for a toothpick eventually, it's about the same size. His reaction is so extreme I'm nervous about being up near his shoulder and crossing his pain threshold. I need a 4ft long toothpick so I don't get blindsided again.

I'll work on it in baby steps for sure. I can now tap him lightly with the stick point first but any direct pressure is too much for him. I can use my finger just fine and press and poke and he doesn't care. I need to find something that is somewhere between my finger and a toothpick and slowly work down to it. Any thoughts on good objects to use?

If he gets me again, my husband is going to make me train horses in a boxing helmet.
Member:
mrose

Posted on Friday, May 4, 2012 - 7:28 pm:

Actually, as amatures, when working with a young horse, a helmet isn't a bad idea! There's been a few times I've wished I had one on, and I was on the ground! We always used them when breeding also. You just never know.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, May 6, 2012 - 7:17 pm:

I think you are right about making the steps smaller between the skin pinch and the blunt stick poke. As you modify the behavior you should consider holding a syringe so it is easily seen. When you get to the poking stage you could use the end barrel of the syringe. The stick poke shows he is not reacting to pain but the expectation. Smaller steps should get you there.
DrO
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