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  Discussion on Effect of Solitary Confinement
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Member:
andym

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 6, 2013 - 10:35 pm:

I have a 5 1/2 yr old gelding which is out of my thorobred mare by my arabian stallion. Both are good tempered, well trained horses. The gelding was shown extensively as a 1 and 2 year old colt . Good behavior and adjusted to trailering and various surroundings very well. He was gelded as an early 3 yr old, and , for personal reasons, was boarded at a very good stable where he got regular turn out daily with one or more geldings or 2 acre pasture. All stalls are solid walls on front (including door) and sides 4 1/2 feet up with vertical bars from there up to ceiling. The back wall is solid with a 2x3 window high up. He had a gelding on one side, a stallion on the other and others viewable across the aisle.
Last August, I moved him to a different stable to have him trained to saddle. Here his stall was solid on three sides floor to ceiling with only a 2x3 screened area in the front and a small window in the back. His turnout (1 or 2 hrs/day)was alone in the arena or in an outside paddock with usually a gelding in an adjacent paddock.
After 2 months of ground work, the trainer was able to get good ground work response and able to mount him easily, but could not get him to walk off. She was afraid he was going to buck if prodded to move on.
At that point, the trainer and the stable owner told me he was a problem horse: that he was aggresive and tense. That he was a danger and was likely to kick back or strike in front.
I then took him to a different stable and with a trainer who is very experienced and for whom I have great respect. After two weeks, she says he is aggresive but she will work it out.
However, his stall there is very similar - 4 solid walls with a small window and small grilled opening in the front wall. He gets daily turnout in the morning in an outside paddock.
My concern is that his behavior is a resultant of what I call "solitary confinement" of the stalls providing no awareness of horses around him, and little turnout with other horses. It is well known how solitary confinement can affect humans. Why wouldn't horses be the same ? Have any of you had this experience or know of papers on this subject? Your info or suggestions would be helpful
I have had horses for over 50 years on various farms we have lived on but always had open air stalls and never this problem.
AndyM
Member:
rdewitt

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 6, 2013 - 10:58 pm:

I have had very similar experiences when I have put youngsters in paddocks by themselves. My now deceased 5 year old was quiet and did fine by himself in an open air paddock where he could see others grazing, however, he became very difficult to ride/train when he was pastured by himself. When I would put him with his mother or another gelding he was wonderful to ride. I soon figured out he was NOT cut out to be turned out alone so I stopped doing it and once he always had a pasture buddy his good nature under saddle returned quickly.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Feb 7, 2013 - 7:27 am:

Hello andym,
Though I cannot say what is happening with your horse I have no doubt that horses which receive adequate amounts of turn out are more relaxed than those that don't. Horses that have a herd they are well integrated with so they graze in a relaxed manner all day will be more relaxed than horses that do not have this comfort.
DrO
Member:
moesmom

Posted on Sunday, Feb 10, 2013 - 10:01 pm:

I have three horses, all very different and with different needs. However I have found they are easiest to work with and are happiest when they have pasture buddy's or neighbors they can see and interact with. ( I'm trying to find that right setting for my old gal right now). I've had training issues with my Arab gelding over the years and have had more than one trainer tell me he is aggressive and could be dangerous. But I also have found trainers who totally disagree and were willing to be patient and work with him. My guy is smart and sensitive and maybe yours it too. Has he ever done anything aggressive or are they just waiting for him to be a danger? You might just need to find a better combination; A living situation where he can be a horse and a trainer who understands your horse and what he responds too. Just my thoughts. Good luck!
Member:
andym

Posted on Sunday, Feb 10, 2013 - 10:17 pm:

Thanks Dr O and oldjumpergal
I was with him and the trainer again today. He's not being receptive to training cues. As an example, when touched on the side, instead of moving away,he aggressively swings his head toward the trainer. More reactive on his right side than left. Similarly he's sensitive to touching around the head. Since this was not his nature a couple of months ago,we think there's a chance it may be a physically caused problem rather than a mental one, we have the vet coming Thursday to give him a physical check up. Will follow up on that.
Andym
Member:
andym

Posted on Friday, Feb 15, 2013 - 11:56 am:

DrO
Yesterday, 2/14, the trainer's vet examined my gelding. I was disappointed that although he is a state licensed veterinarian, he mainly conducts a hollistic practice. He asked little information of me and he and his assistant conducted his exam in the stall which made it difficult for me to see all in detail. He thumped and scratched ,lifted feet and stretched legs. He got reactions but I didn't think they were extrordinary considering two strange men in his stall poking and prodding. JT (the vet) did think so and quickly diagnosed the problem as EPM. He drew a blood sample from the neck artery and injected it at the four "ECM" spots. He also tapped along the backbone and neck with a small hammer like instrument as diagnosis. His treatment for now is to rest (ie: don't work) and give him a supplement daily which he has ordered for us. I suggested that treatment started early can be expected to get better results. He is of the opinion that it's not an emergency and wait four weeks and examine again.
All that said, I am of the opinion that a "medical" test should be done now and am getting in contact with a vet I have confidence in to do so. He's out of town but will be in Monday.
I have read your writings and others and think the latest info points toward the IFAT test or the ELISA test as more reliable. Would you agree or advise another?
I think EPM in a 5 yr old can be a serious long term problem and don't want it to be by inaction now on my part. Your advice will be greatly appreciated.
Andy
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Saturday, Feb 16, 2013 - 10:33 am:

Hello andym,
Though I see no indication of symptoms of EPM in your posts I will address your question about testing for EPM. The ELISA tests for the SAG antigens are considered most reliable do to decreased cross reactivity. But just testing the blood is not reliable for a positive diagnosis. See the article HorseAdvice.com » Diseases of Horses » Nervous System » Incoordination, Weakness, Spasticity, Tremors » EPM, Equine Protozoal Myeloencephalitis and restudy the diagnosis section to understand the strengths and weaknesses of antibody testing for EPM.
DrO
Member:
andym

Posted on Sunday, Feb 17, 2013 - 9:16 am:

DrO
Thank you for your reply. The diagnosis was made by touching etc and observing reactions. No pulse, temp, stetho sounds, and no observance of walking, trotting, etc. Treatment was the blood thing I mentioned previously to be followed by a supplement for a month; then re-examine.
I have read as you suggested and much other such as UC Davis papers. I understand that current tests are not always conclusive or reliable for positive but I thought they are pretty reliable for negative.
I have posted 3 video clips of him on Youtube as Mak in Training. One is 6 min and the other two are 1/2 min each. Clips made 1/19/13 (trainer's first day ever with him) and vet date was 2/14/13. She may have worked him one day +/- in between because now she say's he's aggressive to the point of being somewhat of a danger to handle. She has trained another of my horses and I respect her judgement but think I need a second opinion. Would you agree?
Member:
andym

Posted on Sunday, Feb 17, 2013 - 5:07 pm:

DrO
As an afterthought, my YouTube user name is basheik1 which if put in the youtube search box will list my videos including Mak Vet Exam and Mak in Training.
Andy
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, Feb 18, 2013 - 6:25 pm:

While I have no doubt large number of horses have improved following this diagnosis, I know of no research, or even a common sense reason, to support that the above described diagnostic techniques or treatment are effective. Another opinion would indeed be my recommendation.
DrO
Member:
suemc

Posted on Tuesday, Feb 19, 2013 - 6:25 pm:

Hello AndyM

Just came across your posts when doing one of my own about my own horse (Veterinary reasons)

Just thought I'd mention the obvious and mainly because having bought three young horses in the last two years (now 3, 4 and 5 years old) I have suddenly gained a lot of experience about youngsters! and they are very different and very sensitive!

Mine are all from different backgrounds:

5 year old from a dealer - Behavioural problems all human causes. Wouldnt stand still to be mounted and napping (turning around to go home if he didn't like something) Obvious from the start that he'd been hit a lot. Head shy and used to rear upon spinning and then bucked expecting a whack.. Patience and perseverence and we only have minor napping now.. usually one non violent 'I want to go home' tantrum per hour's hack and then he goes past whatever it is he doesn't like. This is down from spending sometimes half an hour at the same place turning him constantly back to face whatever it was that he doesnt like and then where possible letting him touch whatever it is with his nose. He now knows that I dont give in but I dont lose my temper with him either and so the rearing stopped and the bucks - now he just says okay I'll just do it because if I don't we'll be here forever!

I got him to stand by giving him a horse treat as soon as he is mounted. Now he stands like a stone!! Just got to watch the fingers as the head comes around for his treat like snake. In a year or so Im expecting him to be a lovely horse all round

3 year old bought from a traveller/gypsy - his problem was that he thought he had to pelt everywhere at a manic trot and didn't know how to simply stand and take a breather. Again patience and going back to basics is working wonders and you wouldn't think him the same pony. Driving/riding him all over, down main roads, lorries, buses etc. The gypsys' training made him great in traffic we just had to undo the bad parts of his training!

Youngsters are so very sensitive and they are babies learning about the world. They dont always understand what we want of them - even with tried and tested methods as they are all different. By the sounds of it, your lovely young horse has been moved from a place that he loved and where he was understood, to a trainer's place that he hates... like a child going to a new school where he feels intimidated/bullied.

My opinion, providing there isn't this health issue going on, is that he needs to go back to basics and to be loved and learn to trust you or a trainer over a lond period again before moving onto the riding. Be patient with him - I am sure he's just lost trust.. you haven't been there for everything that's happened in his training and it can take just one thing for them to suddenly lose their trust.

Good luck.. I hope he'll turn out okay for you health and training wise. Be patient with him..
Member:
andym

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 27, 2013 - 8:43 pm:

DrO and Others
Today I had the vet of my choice (he handled the breeding of Mak six years ago) make a visit to examine and prescribe a treatment for him. Before starting his exam, I showed him a six minute video made six weeks ago when his current trainer
worked with him her first time. As he watched, I told him of his history and training over the past six months. I included the trainers' and stable managers' comments regarding Mak's tenseness and aggressiveness toward them - behavior which does not show in the video. His current trainer and stable manager were not in attendance but the Vet knows them and said their comments should not be dismissed out of hand. I then brought Mak out of his stall and he examined him physically.Then he asked that we take him to the arena. He and I alternately led him as we went through doors and outside to the indoor arena. There, he lunged him both ways and patted him all over. All without incidence or aggression. Well, he said , he certainly isn't lame. Because EPM had been mentioned, he suggested that he be tested for that and if that's negative, he suggests a test for stomach ulcers. I agreed and he drew a sample which he will send overnight to UC Davis. He will call me with the results and I'll pass them on.
Member:
lynnland

Posted on Thursday, Feb 28, 2013 - 9:22 am:

Sounds like you are doing a good job looking for physical reasons for your horse's behaviour and have acknowledged that the current management situation might be playing a role (i.e., isolated from other horses). This might not be feasible or even useful but if he is not aggressive towards other horses you might want to try an acrylic mirror in his stall (on the opposite side from his feed bin). I purchased a young horse that had not been stalled regularly and our barn is set up so that he could hear but not see the horse beside him - he was walking in his stall a lot. I put up the mirror and he fell in love and stopped the stress walking. 4 years later he still dozes with his head beside his mirror and it is always covered in slobber. If you try this just be sure you watch him with it; you can get some interesting reactions from some horses.
Member:
andym

Posted on Monday, Mar 11, 2013 - 7:53 pm:

DrO and Others
"My" Vet left a message on my phone today. The result of the IFAT test at CA Davis was negative - no EPM ! That was good news. Will talk with him tomorrow about his thoughts on a next step. I told the Trainer and the Stable owner/manager of the results. The later says that she's pleased but not surprised. She says he's a different horse now than when he came there a month and 1/2 ago and she thinks it's the changes of environment he'd been in.
Will let you know how we proceed.
Andy
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 12, 2013 - 7:05 pm:

Sounds like you are already on the right track Andy.
DrO
Member:
andym

Posted on Saturday, Mar 16, 2013 - 9:30 pm:

DrO
So yesterday, Friday, my son and I loaded Mak in the trailer and hauled him 50 miles to the vet's clinic for a scoping of his stomach for possibility of ulcers. All went well and I videoed segments of the exam for revue at home. The vet is a specialist on internal medicine and it was very interesting to listen and watch. The result is that she found no ulcers or irritations in the linings of the stomach or the early part of the small intestine. She commented that she found nothing internal adversely affecting his behaviour.
The Trainer was very pleased that was the result, but commented that still leaves the behaviour to be dealt with and maybe she couldn't or might be exposed to possible injury. That really surprised me. She earns her living as a trainer, is a 3 day eventing competitor and regularly trains hunter jumper horses. Since Mak didn't give me any problem, she even suggested maybe Mak just doesn't like women . (She said that, not me !!) She's really a good person though and I'll meet with her in a day or so and work out a plan. I do know a couple of other trainers I would trust him to if it comes to that.
My Vet also suggested as an option, that I have him or his associate watch as the trainer works with him (ground work) to see how he acts and if they can detect what, if anything, is physically causing it.
I'll let you know.
Andy
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