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  Discussion on Foamy Mouth--good or not?
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Member:
halln5

Posted on Wednesday, Jun 12, 2013 - 11:50 pm:

I have observed a number of dressage riders and have read some articles about the "foamy mouth". I am curious as to what the consensus of this forum is. I have seen some trainers that clamp the horse's mouth shut so tight and these horses have LOTS of foam, but I wouldn't call them relaxed and comfortable with the bit. I spoke to Dale Myler today about changing bits on my horse and he said he doesn't like to see any foam, that it means the horse can't move the saliva in his mouth around with his tongue. That makes sense to me, but I was wondering what the rest of you think.
Thanks, Vicki
Member:
juliem

Posted on Thursday, Jun 13, 2013 - 12:15 am:

Well Vicki, I've observed that you only see foamy mouths on horses in English tack--I.e. a tight noseband. Western performance horses virtually never have foamy mouths, and in most events, perform on a loose rein. Maybe the fact that the western performance horses have to carry themselves in frame and drive from behind without pressure on the bit has something to do with it. Don't know. Draw your own conclusions.
Member:
althaea

Posted on Friday, Jan 31, 2014 - 1:18 am:

Hi Vicki - hope you still have your lovely dressage mount.
Generally the "foamy" mouth often seen in dressage horses is a product of two things. Most often it is brought on by the bit mouthpiece material. Particularly copper or copper compounds as seen in the more popular dressage bits. These materials increase salivation. Secondly it can be the result of the mouthpiece design. The popular "bean" at the center of a three piece mouthpiece is mobile (any mobile middle element will have the same effect) encouraging the horse to relieve tension by moving it's tongue up and back over the center. This action produces saliva which will foam - especially if the horse is clenching or is using a flash noseband.
I rarely use flashes - if the horse is gaping (opening it's mouth) then usually it is from using the wrong bit or the action of the hands is too heavy or both.
Many riders & trainers make the error of using the status quo bit. Far too common to see a name brand egg butt under a flash and the horse's jaw is fixed and clenching. Foam is good since it means the mouth is moist. A moist mouth means that there is less discomfort than a dry mouth. It is not the deciding factor of bit choice.
I am curious to find out how your horse is doing.
Member:
althaea

Posted on Friday, Jan 31, 2014 - 1:41 am:

Julie -
The fundamental difference between English and western is the bitting and response of the mouth, head, and neck.
English horse's are on the bit - western horses's are off. No aesthetics involved - simply different. Like downhill verses cross country. Both uses skis on snow.
You might be interested to know just how they get the horse to avoid any contact with the bit. Most trainers use the practice of "soring". This is the practice, while the horse is still in a snaffle (it is incorrect to name a bit a snaffle simply because it is jointed - a snaffle is a direct pull bit - no poll or chin pressure) and often with a narrow mouthpiece (such as a twisted wire) of sawing the reins back and forth across the bars of the mouth. This produces the "cherries" or sores at the corners of the mouth which scar up in time. This also damages the nerves on the bars and the tongue. This is how most trainers achieve the "off the bit" part of the training.
I utilize a different method - gets the same job done without destroying the nerves. Takes a wee bit longer - but I don't deal in 30 or 90 days wonders anyway.
Member:
juliem

Posted on Friday, Jan 31, 2014 - 9:21 pm:

Well Althaea, thanks for schooling me. I've only had my cow horses with one trainer. Currently he has the fifth one. I'll have to have a talk with him as I see my horses in training at a minimum of twice a week and he has yet to produce a sore, or "cherry" (never heard of that!). Obviously he's doing something wrong, as are most of the trainers I see at cow horse shows. Interesting though that my mare who's the only one currently showing, won enough money last year to to buy all the hay for my five horses as well as two boarders. All without those "cherries!" What area of western riding are you so knowledgeable with? Since this original post in 2000, I will say I've seen foamy mouths on some nice, soft English horses without tight nosebands.
Member:
mhorse

Posted on Friday, Jan 31, 2014 - 9:49 pm:

Had to chime in here. Some horses are sensitive to clover and will produce copious amount of foam when they have eaten some. My vet has a pony that is a massive producer of foam! Other than that a horse will produce foam when it is on the bit....soft, responsive,obedient and relaxed.
Member:
mrose

Posted on Friday, Jan 31, 2014 - 10:19 pm:

I ride both English and western, have had horse for most of my life ( 70 yrs) have bred, raised and trained Arabians, have had horses in training with some of the best in the business and know a lot more of them. if ANYONE ever sored my horse in the manner you described, they would be off so fast it would make their head spin. I have never heard of this being done.
Member:
althaea

Posted on Saturday, Feb 1, 2014 - 2:16 am:

Most often owners never see cherries - you have to look for them. If your not familiar with what they look like - you at not notice the irritation at the corners of the mouth. Even those trainers who start out in a bosal or a side pull use the same sawing motion to make the nose hyper-sensitive so that the horse will DrOp behind the vertical and lower the head. Even the most diligent owner can miss the signs of this method. If you aren't the trainer who starts the horse then it probably has been trained in this manner. Look at some of the catelogs at the bit descriptions. Note how many state that they "work on new nerve endings". Just what do you think that alludes to? Because more often than not the common areas where you have mouthpiece contact has built up sufficent scar tissue to render the areas basically numb. Ask or look at the trainer's bit wall and notice the most common snaffle. Odds are that they are either very narrow bars or they are twisted wire. If you see either of these you can just about be sure that the sawing is implemented. That is not to say that ALL trainers use this method - if you notice I said most.
The most misunderstood piece of tack is the bit and how to select them. People often mistakenly equate the bit with control. That is not their purpose. Good training is what produces control. Throughout a horses career they may carry a dozen bits or just one. Depends on the level of training.
If you note my answer I spoke of bit material & mouthpiece design as producing foam and that using a flash accentuates the production of foam by the very nature of limiting the horse 's ability to open it's mouth to swallow copious quantities of foam.
Julie - I have been training H/J/D/WP/Reining/Trail/Driving for over 45 years. I've owned, bred and trained probably 10 breeds of horses. After I broke my back (from a Brahmin bull not a horse) I stopped showing pro and stuck to finishwork rather than starting. I also train gaited horses. I am somewhat unconventional in my training methods in that I combine dressage with jumpers, reining, and trail. I also combine driving with everything. I use a Continental style of training as that was how I was taught by my trainer, Con Caulkin, whom I apprenticed to for two years. Add to that 2 years at Saratoga Harness Track (I was one of the first two women to ever work at that track - the other was my girlfriend), where I was an assistant trainer. I also apprenticed at Green Meadows Farm in NY, where I was an assistant trainer of Saddlebreds - both 3 gaited as well as 5 gaited. They were second only to Helen Crabtree consistently at the Nationals for nearly a decade. I was trainer in chief of their huntseat program. I then went to work as an assistant trainer at Troy Riding & Driving Club apprenticing to Con Caulkin. He produced two te horse of the year Pillow Talk (Grand Prix Jumping). Worked with a Prix St. George trainer for part of that two year apprenticeship and began blending dressage with jumper training to heighten responsiveness and suppleness. Moved to CA in 1979 and found little in the way of English riding so I worked with two western trainers for a year. One trainer was a WP trainer of QHs & Paints (I cross-trained his horses in English as payment). The other was an old time guy (he was 70) and he taught me the right way to start a western horse - without soring and teaching the horse proper frame. He also gote hooked on reining. I modified everything I learned over all those years of instruction.
I trained Arabian horses for halter, saddleseat, hunter, jumper and finally just as the breed went to hell because of the rampant greed I began to use them dressage. It has only been in the last 10 years that they were finally "used" by dressage judges thanks entirely to Hilda Guerney. Since I rather like to push the limits, I used my QH stallion (a grandson of Impressive) to team pen in a dressage saddle. He did wonderfully - albeit a tad aggressive with the cattle. He had 4 sons that became cutters - with one making it to the finals placing second.
So are my credentials good enough to pass muster and be considered knowledgeable enough?
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Saturday, Feb 1, 2014 - 8:37 am:

Hello Vicki,
As to whether foam (saliva being aireated to the point of frothing) is good, bad, or indifferent depends on the reason and in the absence of medical problems I would judge the horse and not the foam: is he relaxed and comfortable while bitted.

The bitting issue above is interesting. In our area, 30 years ago, western and TWH training at the professional level was often similar to what Althaea describes above. In the last 20 years however this has evolved toward more humane methods of training. Occasionally we have one of these older style trainers come into the area, develop a questionable reputation, and they don't last very long. I cannot speak for what happens elsewhere.
DrO
Member:
kathleen

Posted on Saturday, Feb 1, 2014 - 11:49 am:

Vicki,
Seems there are many reasons for the foam and I don't see a consensus on that....but it does seem that quantity does not equate to quality.
Member:
mogedy

Posted on Saturday, Feb 1, 2014 - 3:09 pm:

I've ridden dressage for 30 years. There is a misconception here that a flash nose band is cranked tight on a horses mouth and that being on the bit is a hard hold on the horses mouth. The exact opposite is true...it is a giving forward motion always with the hands and elbows just to the point of some contact......the horse rides forward up to the bit, he is not pulled (back) in to contact. Just like some western riders ride incorrectly and put their legs forward driving their seats into the back of the horse, some dressage riders do pull back to get contact....it's incorrect and is usually corrected in time as no progress is made in the sport. The flash is never cranked tight and the bits are generally very soft on the horses mouth unlike twisted wires etc... Forget bits altogether, I have a horse whom I lunge in a cavesson, no bit, he foams beautifully. Hard to say when seeing that whether the bit has anything at all to do with it.
Member:
sdms

Posted on Saturday, Feb 1, 2014 - 4:05 pm:

Hi Vicki LH, I can't comment on what causes horses' mouths to foam but I can say that I've seen it in horses ridden both english and western although admittedly more often in horses ridden english. I would imagine there are a number of things that can cause it both good and bad and that Dr. O is correct in that all things should be considered and that the key is whether or not you have an overall relaxed and happy horse.

Since this thread has veered somewhat off topic and Althaea has entered her credentials into question I feel I can no longer keep silent. No, Ms. Flicek, your credentials don’t mean squat to me. It doesn’t matter what you put on paper or say you’ve done in the past it’s ultimately what you’ve learned from your past experience and say and do now that matters. By generalizing that “most” trainers use cruel methods to get a horse to “avoid the bit" you are portraying yourself as narrow minded and uneducated in current training methods. By proudly admitting that you owned and bred a stallion coming from a line with genetic issues, regardless of whether he was n/n or not, shows me with your actions that you care less about whether a breed goes to hell or not than your typed words above.

I come here primarily for the information provided by Dr. O in the articles and many times I can also find great information from other members about their actual experiences. Arrogance and assertions about what someone “thinks” other people might do are not helpful and, in my opinion, do more harm than good.
Member:
juliem

Posted on Saturday, Feb 1, 2014 - 6:25 pm:

Althaea can you see Idaho from your high horse?
Member:
natalya

Posted on Monday, Feb 3, 2014 - 12:04 pm:

I think all tack is good, depend on rider and a horse if used correctly. We being with different trainers and learn a lot from them and other sources like books and videos, and never ever heard of "soring" the horse's mouth. We start our 2 year old he rides with a different bits never had sore mouth or discomfort. So Althaea, don't where did you find that kind of trainer.
Member:
mrose

Posted on Monday, Feb 3, 2014 - 1:21 pm:

Natalya, you are exactly right in that anything can be misused and cause pain to the horse when in the wrong hands.
Member:
leilani

Posted on Monday, Feb 3, 2014 - 3:01 pm:

Well said Sara. I attended a Myler bit clinic awhile back and Dale Myler was our speaker. Lots of back and forth discussions and hands on demos. I remember him commenting on the snaffle bit. In the wrong, uneducated hand that bit can become lethal.
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