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  Discussion on Desensitizing 9yo Quarter to gunfire
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Member:
reubenr

Posted on Thursday, Jan 30, 2014 - 9:06 pm:

I am trying to desensitize this horse for cowboy mounted shooting. I'm using caps pistols but he is extremely sensitive to gunfire and violently shakes his head and jumps in his front end. I've been working with him for 90 days and no improvement. Suggestions appreciated. I'll Ace him if necessary.}
Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Thursday, Jan 30, 2014 - 9:45 pm:

If he hasn't gotten any better after 90 days of desensitizing. Try soundproof earplugs with an earhood, you may have to get him used to the earplugs, but will probably be much easier than the gunfire. Try Big D's under standardbred racing tack, there is a section just for these types of things(Sound control).

Rachelle
Member:
althaea

Posted on Friday, Jan 31, 2014 - 12:44 am:

Great advice Rachelle. I have used cotton wads and the crocheted ear covers for years on jumpers. Works like a charm!
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Friday, Jan 31, 2014 - 5:48 pm:

Ace him? Seriously?

If he hates the gunfire that much he does not sound like a good prospect for this kind of a job.

That said, hope the ear plugs help and it is just my opinion but I would never ace a horse for such a purpose.
Member:
sdms

Posted on Friday, Jan 31, 2014 - 11:22 pm:

The shaking of his head makes me think his reaction is less of a fearful reaction and more of a physical reaction. It's very possible the volume or the pitch of the shots are actually hurting his ears.

Ace may make it so you can force the horse to behave the way you expect but it doesn't mean he's not still afraid or in pain. Seems like cruel and unusual punishment to me.

Personally, I'd give the ear plugs a shot and if that didn't help I'd find another activity that he was better suited for or find a horse better suited for mounted shooting.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Saturday, Feb 1, 2014 - 7:57 am:

Hello rube35,
Desenstization requires reducing a noxious stimulus to the point of no longer being noxious then slowly raising the level of the stimulus so the increase is not noticed. Using this process you gradually return to the level of the stimulus you need. It sounds to me like you are not starting at a low enough noise level or raising the level of noise too quickly. Often to speed up this process you can reward the desired behavior. This process is described at HorseAdvice.com » Training & Conditioning Horses » Behavior and Training » Modifying a Horses Behavior: Conditioned Responses.

There seems to be some misunderstanding of how acepromazine works. Ace does not paralyze the horse so that it must endure the noxious stimulus and cannot move away. It lowers the level of consciousness making the horse less responsive to external stimulus and may well relieve the horses anxiety to some degree however there is some thought that learning while sedated is not well retained.
DrO
Member:
reubenr

Posted on Thursday, Feb 20, 2014 - 12:12 pm:

I have used Ace for years on high strung horses to help settle them down so they could perform,. there is nor was any force ever used. I don't train that way, I use Clinton Anderson's Method. I've even used it on roping steers that ran too fast for practice. Sara do you also think the use of tranquilizers on persons with mental problems is "cruel and unusual punishment"? FYI I've BEEN using ear plugs on this horse since day one! I don't have another activity for this horse so he has to learn to adapt like numerous other horses that don't like what they do. Unfortunately, I don't have your resources to give up on a horse and change him out like a pair of socks because I'm having a problem with him. I asked for tips or ideas not opinions, criticism or suggestions from uninformed, uneducated individuals who have no experience with Acepromazine.

DrO, thank you for you insight and suggestions. The horse is getting some better and I think will eventually come around. I'm weaning him off Ace every time I use him to shoot off of. I will check outhe chapters you suggested, although I'm fairly well informed on the desensitization process.
Member:
reubenr

Posted on Thursday, Feb 20, 2014 - 12:14 pm:

I have used Ace for years on high strung horses to help settle them down so they could perform,. there is nor was any force ever used. I don't train that way, I use Clinton Anderson's Method. I've even used it on roping steers that ran too fast for practice. Sara do you also think the use of tranquilizers on persons with mental problems is "cruel and unusual punishment"? FYI I've BEEN using ear plugs on this horse since day one! I don't have another activity for this horse so he has to learn to adapt like numerous other horses that don't like what they do. Unfortunately, I don't have your resources to give up on a horse and change him out like a pair of socks because I'm having a problem with him. I asked for tips or ideas not opinions, criticism or suggestions from uninformed, uneducated individuals who have no experience with Acepromazine.

DrO, thank you for you insight and suggestions. The horse is getting some better and I think will eventually come around. I'm weaning him off Ace every time I use him to shoot off of. I will check outhe chapters you suggested, although I'm fairly well informed on the desensitization process.
Member:
reubenr

Posted on Thursday, Feb 20, 2014 - 1:06 pm:

Sorry for the double posting.
ruber
Member:
juliem

Posted on Friday, Feb 21, 2014 - 12:10 am:

There certainly seems to be a lack of civility here. Sad to see a post like this.
Member:
sdms

Posted on Friday, Feb 21, 2014 - 12:11 pm:

Good morning rube35. I’m certain you didn’t mean your most recent post to be an attack on someone from whom you asked advice. Last I checked the advice given by most is based on opinion which is the culmination of personal experiences, education, reading, watching, etc. I gave you suggestions on both a possible discomfort issue and using ear plugs. I also offered my opinion that I don’t believe Ace is the way to properly train a horse. It is certainly within your rights to disagree with my opinion. Unfortunately, my mind reading abilities have started to fail me in my older years and I did not know you were already using ear plugs and I did not know you were only asking for advice that you would agree with.

It is my opinion that Ace is not the way to properly train a horse. It is my opinion that when shortcuts are taken in training your end result isn’t as solid and reliable as if more time and thought had been taken in the training process. It is my opinion that some horses are simply not suited for some disciplines. It is my opinion that there are so many nice horses currently available for next to nothing or nothing that there is likely one in your area that would be perfectly suited for mounted shooting (which you apparently have your heart set on.) It is my opinion that you spend more money buying Acepromazine than I do buying horses. (I almost said fact on this one but you may be getting your Ace from somewhere for free.) It is my opinion that you’re correct and there are numerous horses out there that are made to do jobs they do not like but it is also my opinion that it doesn’t have to be this way. If a horse is truly miserable in an event why would I want him/her as my partner in that event?

It’s obvious that you have no intention of changing events and have no intention of looking for a different horse so here’s my advice for you. Find out first if this is a discomfort issue or if it is a training issue. If it is truly a training issue then continue to use the ear plugs and take the time to attempt to properly desensitize your horse. Leave your horse at home and take your gun to your neighbor’s house. Shoot it there until you don’t get any reaction then move 30 feet closer and do it again. You have to find the point where the shooting is ignored and that is your starting place and work closer from there. It’s not something that can likely be done in a day with the severe reaction you say you’ve gotten in the past.

I wish the best of luck to your horse.
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Friday, Feb 21, 2014 - 7:48 pm:

Sara's advice now as previously is very good, in my humble opinion.

I have heard many stories, from very experienced horsemen and equine veterinarians about how unreliable administering ACE to a horse can be.

Sometimes the results are very opposite of the intended.

As a training vehicle, sorry, I just don't get it and consider it as a shortcut, not training at all.
Member:
reubenr

Posted on Sunday, Feb 23, 2014 - 10:05 pm:

Hi Sara. Thanks for your reply to my post. I don't use Ace as a training tool. I use it for what it is, a tranquilizer to help my horse function in a stressful situation. I didn't ask for advice that I would agree with, what's the point in that? This isn't a request for opinions on Ace. No, I didn't intend my reply to be an attack. My goodness, " Attack, cruel and unusual punishment". Thin skinned are we?
You didn't respond to my question regarding sedatives and other anxiety meds for humans. I thought that anyone as familiar with training horses as you must be would assume the most obvious thing to try first would be ear plugs.
Let me start over by delineating what I have done so far that hasn't worked. 3 months ago, while he was eating I started shooting one cap pistol from about 75" away. Then I graduated to 2 cap pistols while he was eating and in the pen with my other gelding who I compete on in CMS matches. He gradually adjusted to that. Then I took him to some shooting practices, inserted his ear plugs, and tied him 50 yards away. I continued trying this method but he did not improve. With the ear plugs in I moved him closer to the shooting area but he only settled down a little.
Then I began to work him in the round pen shooting one cap pistol, ear plugs inserted, until he adjusted and then used two. Then I began riding him out firing a cap pistol during all three gaits, using ear plugs each time.
This process has been going on for about 90 days. Now, if a level 6 shooter rides him at speed he has no issues whatsoever. However, I'm 78 yo and I cannot ride and shoot like that so I have to gather the horse up and that's when he has real trouble. The reason I want to use this horse is because of his prior training and physical abilities. I competed on him both Saturday and today and he performed adequately on 2ccs of Ace. The horse is sensitive to all loud noises and I probably will not continue to compete on him because I don't think he is suited for the only sport I can compete in at my age. He is very sensitive to loud noises, not just gunfire. I don't know how much money you spend on buying horses but I have had one bottle of Ace for a year.
Vicki, I don't know why you thought I was using Ace as a training tool. I've never heard of anyone doing that and I have been involved with horses for over 65 years. But now you have heard ONE story of positive results because today I placed second out of 60 shooters on an aced horse. Thanks one and all for you comments. Lack of civility not with standing.
rube35
Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Monday, Feb 24, 2014 - 3:05 am:

Rube35,

In your first post, you did not give us a history, as you did in your last post of what you had done with your horse. You asked for advice. Since none of us knew the background, it would be hard for us to know what you did or did not do.

That said, you seem to be proud of yourself for finishing 2nd with an aced horse. In my business( racehorses( mine race clean with no drugs), that would be a positive test and you would get a fine and a suspension for using it. Since Ace is a short term TQ, you would have to treat your horse very close to the event to have it do anything at all.

While Ace may have its uses in certain circumstances, it has no use at all in a performance situation. And it appears you have found the only competitive discipline that allows the use of Ace in competition.

Doesn't seem like there is much, any of us can do and since those that have responded have about 200 years of combined experience with all kinds of disciplines and all kinds of horses and none of us support the use of ace in the situation you are in, I'd say majority rules. Ditch the Ace and find another more suitable horse that does not require ace to be comfortable in the circumstances you are putting him in.
Member:
mrose

Posted on Monday, Feb 24, 2014 - 10:07 am:

Good morning Rube35, as someone who is evidently very close to you in years, I am impressed that you compete in mounted shooting at your age, and am very curious as to why it is the only sport you can compete in at your age? I am only a few years younger and compete currently in trail and working western classes. I did give up the English classes that were killing my knees.

I have been following here and I have to say I don't understand the sarcasm in your posts. In your initial post you gave just the barest of facts and asked a question. As you know by know, since you've been a member on this board for approx. 5 yrs., Dr.O isn't the only one who answers questions unless you specifically name him in the question - and even then others will often chime in. I don't believe any of us have met you in person or know anything about you, including your age, or your horse experience. Many people who come to this board are novices and new to the horse world., or at least new to caring for their horses themselves. Yet, with all that in mind, when anyone has offered their opinion, your response has been bitingly sarcastic if not downright mean, regardless of the fact that initially it was just their honest opinion they were giving you, which is pretty much what you ask for in an open forum.

I have been on HA since 2000 if I remember right, have had horses my entire life. My parents were horse lovers; my dad rode in the US Cavalry before it became an infantry unit. I learned a lot from both my parents. I bred Egyptian Arabians for many years, and have shown horses since the 1950's. I had the privilege of going to many clinics under some of the best in the world, have trained with some of the best in the country, and am friends with many top trainers and breeders across the board in breeds and disciplines. .. and all over the world for that matter. I am not wealthy, but have worked hard. I am saying all of this so you'll know my "qualifications" to respond; not saying it to impress.

I have never used,nor known anyone to use ACE to compete. Not only is it dangerous, it is illegal in every competition I've been too.. I myself have used ACE to get a horse in a trailer when it was an emergency ( not my horse btw) and that's about it. I have heard numerous tales of animals and people getting injured while the horse has been under sedation of ACE. As you should know, not all animals respond physiologically to a drug the same way. I myself have seen horses become violent under it. I have heard of horses even dying from it. And, from what I've read and been told, when ACE is used as a training aid, the horse isn't really trained long term, as he usually doesn't remember what he is taught. In my experience, the best training tool for any discipline or situation is patience and more patience, time and consistency. It appears to me that you used ACE as a "short cut" because you wanted the horse ready for this particular competition, and that you did not have the patience to wait for another competition. IMHO you took a risk. Also, IMHO a win or placing on a horse that is drugged is not a true win but a shame. A true win is when you've worked with a horse, worked through his issues and your issues and over time have developed understanding and trust enough to go into a stressful situation and have a good ride whether you come out with the medal or not.
Member:
mrose

Posted on Monday, Feb 24, 2014 - 10:09 am:

And btw, the word "shame" was meant to be "sham" for that is what it is imo. Though I guess it's a shame also that you didn't have the time and patience to work through this with this horse, or to be willing to use him in something to which he is better suited. Though with enough time, there are very few horses that are so sensitive they can't gain enough trust to overcome their sensitivity.
Member:
reubenr

Posted on Monday, Feb 24, 2014 - 12:37 pm:

Good morning Sara. To satisfy your curiosity about Mounted Shooting. I live in far West Texas where there are roping competitions or currently mounted shooting. I team roped for 25 years and during that time I probably bought, sold or used over 100 roping horses. Some we Aced because they were fractious, nervous, or plainly not qualified to compete in the sport. It was never used as a TRAINING tool. This entire discussion got all sideways because all you ladies jumped all over me for daring to use ACE. I know what all the possible drawbacks of it are and I checked with my vet about applying it to this particular horse. I have trained numerous horses for roping and I never used
Ace at any time. I'm truly sorry I ever even brought it up and yes I am proud of the fact that at 78 I placed 2nd whether it was on a drugged horse or not. No harm no foul. Many team ropers Ace their horses. Not trying to train them but to get through a roping. As the horse becomes more tolerant they are weaned off it.
I have another horse I can compete on and as I said I am probably going to stop using this horse because of his aversion to loud noises.
My comments were based on the fact that saying I was using cruel and unusual punishment was extremely offensive.
This horse has my complete trust but he cannot tolerate loud noises just as some people cannot. I'm going to put him with a trainer to see what his future holds.
Next time I ask for information on this web site it will be of a specific nature that doesn't kick over a hive of killer bees. Final word from an old cowboy.
rube35
Member:
gramsey1

Posted on Monday, Feb 24, 2014 - 6:32 pm:

Rube35,
You have received some very good advice from Sara and Rachel. You fail to grasp several points.
1. A tranquilized horse while it may be complaint, does not learn very well.
2. A tranquilized horse is unsafe.
3. The point of competition is demonstrate the quality of the horse and skill of rider.
4. When you tranquilize a horse in order to compete you are cheating, because it is not a true demonstration of the quality of the horse or skill of the rider.
If you are runnin' with a crowd that tranquilizes horses for competition, you are runnin' with the wrong crowd.
Is it about the horse or you?
Member:
gramsey1

Posted on Monday, Feb 24, 2014 - 6:43 pm:

I would add to Dr.O's advice. Effective training is mostly about effective timing. Rather that trying to get your horse to ignore the sound. Teach him to listen for it, to want the reward it brings. It brings release, and praise from you. So, start with a quiet pop and praise him when he doesn't react.
Increase the sound and praise him when he does't react. Increase until does react, put him to work, back, circle, give the front, give the hind. Do NOT Punish. But, get him to listening to those drills you raised him up on. While is listing to you repeat the report, when he doesn't react, release, praise, repeat. . . . repeat.
Member:
gramsey1

Posted on Tuesday, Feb 25, 2014 - 7:26 pm:

"The thing you are trying to help the horse to do is to use his own mind. You are trying to present something and then let him figure out how to get there." - Tom Dorrance
Member:
gramsey1

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 26, 2014 - 7:25 pm:

"The horse is a mirror. It goes deep into the body.
When I see your horse I see you too. It shows me everything you are, everything about the horse.
I try to face life for what it is. There’s heartache, but it’s a good thing.
I’m trying to save the horse’s life and your life too.
The human is so good at war. He knows how to fight.
But making peace, boy, that’s the hardest thing for a human.
But once you start giving, you won’t believe how much you get back." - Ray Hunt.

Ray's quote is from an article titled 'Ray Hunt: The Cowboy Sage' by Gretel Ehrlich, Shambhala Sun, July 1998.
Member:
mrose

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 26, 2014 - 8:24 pm:

Guy, I love Tom Dorrence and Ray Hunt! True horsemen in every spence of the word! I had the honor of meeting Ray Hunt MANY years ago in California. I was so impressed by his demeanor. So soft spoken. We can ALL learn from his words and those of Mr. Dorrence, regardless of what we know, think we ow, or discipline we ride in.
Member:
mrose

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 26, 2014 - 8:26 pm:

Sorry. Am on ipad which has a mind of it's own and evidently doesn't speak the same English I do: it auto corrected " sense" to "spence" for some reason.
Member:
gramsey1

Posted on Thursday, Feb 27, 2014 - 8:19 pm:

Tom, Bill and Ray provided horses with an opportunity for better lives. And us with an opportunity to have better horses.

This thread reminds me of a moment after my nephew made some silly and bogus pronouncement of fact, His Grandfather, my Uncle, seventy something, said, in a his born and bred Montana accent,

"Son, . . I'd love to buy for what you know, and sell you for what you think you know".
Member:
gramsey1

Posted on Saturday, Mar 1, 2014 - 6:14 pm:

One last bit of advice form a living master, Denny Emerson.

When people talk about "retiring" from riding at some specific age, often quite young, like 60, and I realize how at 70, give or take a year (will turn 73 this year), I could do these things with Union (a horse), I realize that the ONE KEY THING, apart from injury or disease, that gives you total confidence, is THIS:

Ride one who absolutely will go. DO NOT ride a stopper. Brave horse = brave rider. Chicken horse = chicken rider.

You don`t fall off when they go, but a quick brake slam can get any rider. So, if you want to stay gutsy, and want a longer career, get a go-er, not a no-er.
Member:
mrose

Posted on Saturday, Mar 1, 2014 - 10:57 pm:

LOL. True words Guy!
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