This is an archived Horseadvice.com Discussion. The parent article and menus are available on the navigation menu below:
HorseAdvice.com » Training, Behavior, & Conditioning Horses » Behavioral Problems » Aggression in Horses »
  Discussion on Aggressive Gelding or Just Spooked?
Author Message
Member:
Julieh

Posted on Friday, Jul 15, 2005 - 10:54 am:

I am going to try and make a very long story as short as possible. I bought a gelding, 4 years old at the time, last June. He is a big horse 16.2. I bought him and immediately took him to a trainer for training and boarding. The lady we bought him from did not ride him much, said he was mainly a pet. I actually think that is partly his problem maybe, a spoiled horse maybe??? I moved him in October of last year when I found the training techniques were too abusive for my taste! He was a bully and the trainer said she took a stick out when she fed him so he wouldn't kick her. As a last resort (before selling him), we took him to a natural horsemanship trainer and boy, what a difference 60 days makes! This bully of a horse became so calm and a pure joy to be around. We have had him home since February and have had no problems, until lately. I have been told I am "too gentle" for my own good when it comes to horses. I agree that is true sometimes, but I have a hard time drawing the line between assertive and aggressive. He is very possessive with our mares and we had to separate him from them, which helped. We have to be very careful to make sure we bring him in first at night before our mares, or he is too hard to handle. Three weeks ago, I was bringing him in from the pasture. I was probably careless in the fact that I was not paying attention, but he ran ahead of me and immediately kicked. One hoof caught me in the right shoulder, the other in the top of my thigh. He was acting very aggressive and I should have just let him go, but my reaction was to hold tight. He was dragging me all over the yard, injuries and all! My husband ran over, took him and immediately put him in the round pen, which was the closest thing around to see about me. I really thought this was because of a bee sting, a snake, or he spooked from something but I believe now he is showing aggressive behavior, like he has gotten away with something and is going to keep on. I have kept my distance from him since because I don't want him to sense my fear, plus I am still recovering from my injuries. My question is - how do I handle him? What kind of correction or negative reinforcement is needed? I want to think of him as needing some correction instead of him being a "dangerous horse" as I have been told. Does anyone have any suggestions?
Member:
Morg1

Posted on Friday, Jul 15, 2005 - 12:54 pm:

Wow! That's scary. Unfortunately when your in pain like that you can't recover quick enough to properly discipline your horse in a timely manner. My only advice is that don't let your guard down again, and if he ever pushes into you, tries to bolt past you, kicks at you, tries to bite you, or whatever, discipline him hard and fast. Make him think he is going to die yell, scream, hit, but just for a few seconds. Then love up on him like nothing happened. I hope that you don't think this is to harsh, but you don't ever need to be hurt like that again. I'll be interested to see what others have to say. I hope you heal up quickly. I wouldn't blame you if you were afraid to go near him, but don't let him know. Good luck.
Member:
Canter

Posted on Friday, Jul 15, 2005 - 1:23 pm:

Practical Horseman magazine has had a series of articles about handling/leading horses this past spring/summer. Unfortunately I can't remember exactly which month the specific articles were in and can't dig around to look for it right now. But, if you get a chance and can locate some recent issues, you might be able to find the articles -- there was one that was specific to leading young horses in & out of pastures and had good advice for handling the naughty horse.

I hope you have recovered from your injuries.
Member:
Hwood

Posted on Friday, Jul 15, 2005 - 11:38 pm:

Julie, I know that Karen has hit it on the head. We need always to be aware of where our horse's attention is, and we should also always be aware of where our bodies are in relationship to our horses so that we can cue them quickly to move away or halt or whatever. With some horses it is more critical than with others.

It is natural for us to get distracted or sometimes lose our focus when we are working around horses, and if accidents happen when we get too relaxed or inattentive, then it is our fault, not the horses'. I don't believe that every correction has to be a harsh one, but you MUST have a cue that you can use whenever you see your horse's attention wander from the handler . . . a cue to refocus him . . .

If I'm dealing with a particularly rambunctious horse, I an ugly-sounding "aach! aach!" as I tighten my elbow and set my hand on the lead or reins. With your horse, a crop or dressage whip may lend you courage . . . just carry it in your off-hand horizontally in front of his chest as you lead him. Use verbal cues first, then pressure cues, then add the crop if he decides to try to "barrel through." Every time you work with this horse, I would start with practice "givings" to pressure from the lead or pressure from the bit. Just a few on each side . . . or as many as are necessary to gain his attention and obedience. These practices (which can easily become automatic) help to discern whether or not the horse is focused on you, the handler, and they help the handler focus as well.

Your horse's spoiled nature is reappearing, and he needs to have his hand slapped, even if he throws a little tantrum, before there are any more accidents.

I know how those kicks can hurt. I wore the impression of a green hoofprint on my right thigh for years and years.

If you doubt your own ability to work strongly with your gelding, it may help you to get a trusted trainer to coach you through a few sessions as you are dealing with him. Remember that you and your horse must be safe during your interactions, and your horse must be more calm after working with you than he was before you worked with him. Be safe.
Member:
Morg1

Posted on Saturday, Jul 16, 2005 - 12:26 am:

I didn't realize that my post implied that every correction needs to be a harsh one, but Holly gave some excellent advice. I will definitely remember her advice in case I ever need it. I do agree that his spoiled behavior is coming back, and remember whether he was spooked or not he should not have kicked out at you.
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Saturday, Jul 16, 2005 - 9:50 am:

I too was too kind and not a "leader." My horse never kicked at me while leading, but he used to be quite the a$$...but only because he didn't trust me and didn't know what I wanted.

I had a trainer work with him then with me and with him...it helps a LOT :-)

On a daily basis, I tell my horse where to put his feet. With just a cluck of my tongue and I point my finger. Don't even have to touch him anymore :-) It really does help.

Holly gives great advice as usual...be careful and take baby steps.
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Saturday, Jul 16, 2005 - 9:52 am:

Karen, I didn't get that from Holly's post at all ... She agreed with you :-)
Member:
Hwood

Posted on Saturday, Jul 16, 2005 - 12:17 pm:

Sorry, Karen. I really didn't mean to imply that you were recommending severe discipline for everything. I do know you were separating quick and harsh discipline for dangerous actions from the daily routine discipline that we use for simple transgressions. I wanted to be sure that anyone who skimmed your post wouldn't take it as a license to impose "macho" discipline for every disobedience. We have to "read" our horses, and discipline accordingly. Around the ranches here in CA, I see lots of harsh, reactionary, ignorant, inconsistent forms of discipline used by men and women on many horses. In their efforts to appear "in control" of their horses, these folks are showing their lack of understanding which translates into fear which translates into anger . . . which results in even more confused and frightened horses.
Member:
Morg1

Posted on Saturday, Jul 16, 2005 - 12:48 pm:

Hey guys it's ok. I didn't know how you took my post, but when I read it again I realized that it could be interpreted that I correct my horses harshly for little things. I just wanted to make sure that I made it clear that I don't correct my horses with harsh treatment unless it is warranted.
Member:
Julieh

Posted on Sunday, Jul 17, 2005 - 8:11 am:

Thanks guys! My cable has been out on my modem and I have been unable to get on my computer. I couldn't wait to see if I had replies. Thanks for the advice and I will use it! After this weekend, I am convinced he is being a bully and is trying and succeeding at running over me! I put him in the round pen to free lunge him this weekend. He absolutely refused. I have never seen anything like it! He turned his butt to me and would not move. I tried tapping him on the rear with a crop, no luck. Finally, he just stepped back a few steps and tried to RUN THROUGH the round pen. If it would have been wood, he would have gone through. The opposite side of the round pen actually came off it's feet. I was so frustrated and with my lack of knowing what to do, I put him in the pasture. I know, I know, he won again, as usual! I am very tense around him and actually quite scared I think. I have five more horses and none of them act like he does. I have a yearling stallion who I trust more than him. He is rambunctuous but he doesn't intentionally try to hurt me. I did have a trainer train him for 60 days and it made a remarkable difference. My husband said he never would have imagined someone could turn that horse around, but she did. Now, he is back to his bully self and I guess it is my fault for not knowing how to handle him. I have already lined up a trainer for me and him. How do you handle a horse refusing to lunge like that, I have never had that problem before? I think he just refuses anything I ask of him. Today, I will use the crop to lead him.
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Sunday, Jul 17, 2005 - 9:34 am:

I'm so glad you lined up a trainer..it really does help a lot.

Make sure he doesn't hurt anywhere. If his stomach hurts, the only way I've been able to tell is if his flanks are sucked up.

Also, rub your hands along his jaw, on the outside, and see if you get a reaction. He may have some teeth coming in or his mouth is bothering him. I found that if my horses' mouth hurt, he was a pig...even with just a halter on. Turned out he had a hook in the very back next to very sensitive tissue.
If i asked him to do something he'd refuse, if I asked again, he would be an idiot. He was never noticeably in pain. These horses can be incredibly stoic. Fixed that and he was an angel.

This may sound silly...but ask him if he hurts anywhere. I did this to my guy and believe it or not, he just put his head down right next to me after I asked. That told me yes...seeing as how the minute before he was an absolute idiot.

If you do not think he hurts anywhere. Set yourself up for success. For me, it was telling myself over and over that he IS going to behave. Have a plan when you lead him, walk with a purpose, EXPECT him to behave. He needs to know you mean business.

Hopefully others will check in soon. Good Luck and be safe!
Member:
Hwood

Posted on Sunday, Jul 17, 2005 - 11:07 am:

Julie,

I really think the trainer will help both of you more than you know. Not being able to see you interact with your horse in the round pen, I am going to assume something that may or may not be true. You said your horse turned his butt to you and faced the fence, backed up and ran for the fence. I am assuming that your body language is not aggressive enough to get this horse to face the correct direction and MOVE forward. If one of my horses turned his hind end to me in the pen, I would immediately move swiftly to one side of him (at least 10 feet from his hind feet) and with a forward motion of my arms and upper body, and with a, "GRRRRRRRRRRRR! GIT!!!" and a throw of a rope toward his shoulder (to turn him away from the fence) I'd get him moving away from me on the rail. As you may have heard, without movement there is no training . . . a horse that doesn't move is the most dangerous kind.

My guess is that your uncertainty is keeping you from being able to communicate clearly and strongly with your resistant horse. It looks to me as if he is a "MAKE ME" horse . . . (He plants his feet, sticks out his chin, looks you in the eye and says, "Make me!")

I would not discount what Aileen has suggested in the post above. There may be a physical reason why your horse is resistant. Horses are honest, so if he isn't complying with you, it is either because he has lost confidence in you or he is hurting.

If you are certain there are no physical reasons for his behavior, and if you have fear while working around him, just put him in a paddock/pasture and observe him and allow him some "down time" until the trainer gets there. It won't be time wasted.
Member:
Ajudson1

Posted on Sunday, Jul 17, 2005 - 12:31 pm:

Julie,

I'd like to second Aileens advice. Can you spend some time with him cross tied, or just tied, and really check him over for pain? Start out just rubbing him in different places, like a body massage. Watch his reaction. He should relax big time. If he's in pain he'll lay his ears back or move away from you. If you hit a spot that he really likes rubbed, you may find he will keep putting that part of his body by you!! If you are comfy doing this with him loose in his stall, it'll be more noticeable. He also may think you are playing, and start play bitting, which of course you don't want. I have a gelding that does that when I rub his hips. He thinks we're playing because that's how him and the other gelding play.

I do not tolerate any horse turning his butt to me. In the stall or out of it. I will talk and as them to turn to me with my body language. If that fails, I will use something on the hind end!! It isn't "whipping" them into submission, it's "hey, hello, pay attention I am in here"

I am concerned you said you took a crop to him? A crop is a short whip held in your hand usually used when riding or leading. There are buggy whips, and lunging whips. The buggy whip is shorter with a shorter sash. The lunging whip can get real long and be hard to handle so I usually use a buggy whip. You can reach the horse and stay outa the way of his feet that way. I think you would be best off taking some time off from that part for now, but for future reference.....

An idea for you that's inexpensive: I buy at our Dollar Store, the bamboo sticks for plants. I tape it up with Duck tape to make it solid, and use it as a horse training tool. It's more solid than the whips, and no sash to flap around. I think they are in 4 packs for a buck, so if they break, no big deal.

There are times something a little more solid comes in handy.

Good luck
Member:
Julieh

Posted on Sunday, Jul 17, 2005 - 8:10 pm:

I have one of the whips that Clinton Anderson has, they are great. The whip part comes off so you can use it with or without. I take it off when I am using it for things such as backing up exercises, or moving the hindquarters exercises. I took Holly's advice and took it with me to pasture to get him in tonight. I just walked with it against his chest horizontally and it was kind of funny. He walked and kept looking at me like, what are you doing???? Angie, I am not sure what you meant when you said you were concerned that I took a crop to him. I think you must mean when I said I was going to take the crop to the pasture when I led him in so he wouldn't barrel through me or by me. He is definitely one of those "make me" horses. I had the vet there to check his teeth not too long ago. He has arthritis and takes supplements for that and I hesitate to work him too much because of that but the vet said I need to work him more to keep him in shape. He is very young to have arthritis, he is only 5. Many thanks to everyone - I need all the help and advice I can get. I am trying to get my confidence up - I just have a hard time drawing the line between what is harsh and what is not!
Member:
Ajudson1

Posted on Sunday, Jul 17, 2005 - 10:11 pm:

Julie,

O.K., it sounds like you have an awesome whip, I like Clinton Andersons whip alot. I wish I had one, it's on my horse list of things to get someday.

I understood your post to mean you were in the round pen and useing the crop to get him to move and change directions. I was afraid you were using something that was too short and you were too close to his back feet!! CA's "tool" is 4' long and you are safe (usually) that far away from hind feet. I think you are on the right track, sorry if I went overboard on my explanation of whips/crops. Try walking with the whip just in front on him, not touching. If he pulls ahead, then tap, or smack his chest depending what he needs. Also pull his head around if he charges.

Be safe, take your time, the confidence will come. He's only 5 and although he should have manners by now, he's still young in my opinion.
Member:
Lhenning

Posted on Thursday, Jul 21, 2005 - 2:11 pm:

Julie,

I just saw something on RFDTV, on Pat Parelli's show, that seems to fit here. Pat was training a woman's horse that sounds very similar to yours, spoiled and pushy. One part of the show had Linda Parelli showing the woman how to be more assertive in her posture. Try this: have your husband or a friend come at you and try to push you away. Do you feel comfortable letting them? Now you try and prevent them from pushing you around. Look at your body posture. What changes do you feel inside? Now have your husband or friend do the same thing but this time, you are ready for their attack and you are already in position to ward them off. Use this same stance and approach with your horse. Use your voice too, the deeper, louder voice we use to command others. Don't take "no" for an answer. When you use the crop, don't tap, really pop him. I don't mean beating, but horses that kick each other have definite meaning to their actions. You need to do the same. Just because you are afraid inside, doesn't mean you have to show the fear to him. Try this in the round pen along with the good advice given above and see if it doesn't help. Another thing I've learned here, if one thing doesn't work, try another.

Good luck,
Linda
Home Page | Top of Page | Join Us!
Horseadvice.com is a BBB Accredited Business. Click for the BBB Business Review of this Horse Training in Stokesdale NC