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Discussion on De-spooking Process
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Member:
Julieh
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 - 2:24 pm:
I hope I have posted this in the right place. I have a couple of horses who have been through the "de-spooking" process with a NH trainer. I have a new horse who has strictly been a show horse and has never really been turned out in a pasture really. When not at a show, he was either in his stall or on a walker. His disposition is remarkable to have led this life only for the past 4 years. I have had him at home for the past three weeks. I haven't graduated to the pasture yet, but he has been in the large paddock daily for the past three weeks. He is bored to tears with arena and round pen work and seems very happy when I just walk him around the farm. I am a little reluctant though to take him too far because he has never been on a trail or out by himself. I don't want him to spook at just anything that happens to fly by. I decided to put him through the de-spooking process my other two have been through. I have the Clinton Anderson whip and tossing that over his back, around his legs, over his neck, etc...all this went over well, no reaction. When I would hit the whip on the ground beside him, he would jump and jump and run. After about 5 minutes of this, he decided that this was okay, so he calmed down with that. Next I took the plastic shopping bags attached to end of a whip and just rattled them on the ground about 5 feet from him. He was petrified! I could never get him completely calmed down. I at least got him to a point where I felt comfortable enough to quit. My question is - did I start out at a bad place with this? Should I have let it lay on the ground for him to sniff, or what? I am going to continue tonight but I am not sure where to pick up and how fast I should go with this. At least I know now that a trail ride would probably have not been a safe bet if he is this spooked by that.
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Member:
Stina
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 - 3:15 pm:
Julie, I dont' know what breed of horse you are working with, so I don't know if my comments will apply. I show both Quarter Horses and Arabians. My 9yr old arabian gelding has not led as sheltered a life as your horse, but has been shown extensively and been on the trails. In addition, we have done quite a bit NH style training. Regardless of how much I have attempted to desensitize him to plastic bags, he refuses to believe they are going to do anything but kill him. This fear is ingrained in him from his young days as a halter horse before I owned him. Since arabians are meant to look perpetually startled in Halter classes, trainers use plastic bags to get their blood up, eyes big, ears forward and just generally just a tad freaked out. If you are working with a breed where this tactic was used to create a "look" you might find he is perfectly fine with most things, BUT the plastic bag. Mind you, I have been able to progress from my stomping, rearing and striking at the plastic big, to tolerating it as long as it doesn't rattle too much. But I don't believe his preconceived notion of how was taught to react to a plastic bag will ever go away. Nevertheless, trail riding is still ok.
Good luck, be patient and try to find a trail riding buddy with an experienced trail horse to accompany you.
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Member:
Julieh
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 - 3:53 pm:
He is a 5 year old quarter horse and he is normally VERY calm and mild mannered. I was not aware that Arabians are trained with these bags to look startled. I know that is not the case with him, he just acts like he has never seen one before and that is THE boogyman himself! He did a lot of trail I understand while he was showing and was afraid of a mailbox as well. The previous owner told me that if I was to show him and there was a mailbox in the trail pattern, to not even attempt to take him in there because he would not go near it. I don't want to keep him from things that scare him, I want him to learn that he doesn't need to fear them, I am just not knowledgeable enough yet to know how to teach him. I am a reading fool right now, but without hands-on experience I am afraid of creating a monster.
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Member:
Canter
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 - 4:03 pm:
One method I used to train my first horse to not be afraid of plastic bags was to feed him carrots out of them. I first approached him with a carrot sticking out of the bag, rustling the bag VERY gently. At first he wouldn't come near but as I repeated the process, he learned the carrots were in there and he would slowly approach. I made him get closer each time before he would get the carrot. As he became more comfortable (bringing his body closer instead of just stretching his nose for the carrot), I gradually made more noise with the bag and moved it around more each time, careful not to push him into a fear response again. Eventually, plastic bags became very interesting to him as he always thought that there might be a surprise carrot waiting for him.
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 - 4:06 pm:
ok...nobody laugh 
Get some carrots and put them in a plastic bag...I swear it works. I have three horses at my barn that when they first got here they would have a cow at plastic bags, shavings bags...you name it. They now dump their noses into the plastic bags to get the carrots.
Now when a plastic bag goes flying by them from the wind...they have to go check it out to make sure it doesn't have carrots in it.
First you need to help them out a little. Take a carrot but hold it through the bag so their nose has to get close to the bag...
Good luck!
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 - 4:07 pm:
Fran you beat me to it
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Member:
Terrilyn
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 - 4:08 pm:
Hi Julie...there is a lot of great info on this site. I think most would recommend you start here if you haven't read it already: Training Horses » Training Your Horse's Mind » Modifying a Horses Behavior: Conditioned Responses.
We have owned a wonderful, wise, delightful large pony for about 4 years (he's around 9). He is very sensitive to noises....and terrified of plastic bags. However, he is one of the best, most reliable trail horses we've had the pleasure to own and ride. Don't let what you think his reaction will be keep you from getting out on trails...go with a buddy and seasoned trail horse as suggested above...and just put miles in the saddle. No matter how you condition at home, there are situations away from familiar environs that you can never simulate at home. If you are calm and collected yourself, your horse will take his cues from you.
Also, have you tried putting treats (carrots, apples, etc) in the bag so that he begins to understand that good things come from scary plastic bags?
Just some thoughts.
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Member:
Terrilyn
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 - 4:09 pm:
Oops....got this in after all the good suggestions on treats above...sorry for the repetition!
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Member:
Stina
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 - 4:14 pm:
Another method that works really well for desensitization to a variety of things, is to tie/place the scary objects in your horse's stall or paddock. We have had stalls that looked like dumpsters had blown up in them, but at least the horse learned to cope. And the great part about is, that they don't learn to associate the negative stimulus with you, nor do they learn to rely on you to overcome their fears. They just simply figured out on their own that these objects were just that, objects. Nothing to be fearful or worried about.
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Member:
Julieh
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 - 4:27 pm:
After our little episode last night, I leaned the whip with the bags attached next to the fence post where he was standing as I was brushing him. He looked at it, but never really reacted to it. Maybe tonight I will tie them somewhere close to where he will be. Since he is staying out at night, the wind should keep them flapping in the breeze.
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Member:
Lilo
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 - 4:49 pm:
Julie,
After following all the good hints above, your horse may well accept the plastic bag in his typical environment, or in your hand. And it is good to expose the horse too many different stimuli before going out on a trail. But - a plastic bag being moved by the wind may still cause a problem. I like the idea of going out with an experienced trail horse in the beginning. If that horse stays calm, your horse will take his cue from that.
Loved the idea of feeding carrots out of the bag. Will try that on my younger horse today!
Lilo
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Member:
Gillb
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 - 5:37 pm:
Lots of good advice here but it's as well to remember that a lot of horses may accept something perfectly well in their home surroundings where they feel safe, but still react out on a trail where they are not so secure. However the more you expose them to the easier it will get, over time!
I used to have a very hot Morgan horse and regularly had de spooking sessions at home in the arena. I would set up all sorts of things - feed sacks tied to jump wings, balloons, plastic sheets on the ground etc and he was absolutely fine with them. He used to drink out of a large black bin and I will never forget the time I was doing a handy horse class (or 'trail' class to you in the US I think). One of the obstacles was that I had to throw a ball into a black bin, exactly the same as his water container. I thought this will be easy! Well, would you believe that bin was the ONE thing he would not go anywhere near???!!! He walked past balloons, through tape, over a 'dead body' made of stuffed sacks - but the bin - NO WAY!!! 
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Member:
Brandi
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 20, 2005 - 10:35 pm:
Julie, I second the idea that the plastic bag does not mean your horse won't be able to handle the trail. Use additional clues and tests to determine your safety level there. I have a 22 year-old QH who showed a great deal until 8, then hundreds of miles of trail and recently 5 years of high-speed rodeo drill team stuff, then we started NH clinics about 4 years ago. Plastic bags on the ends of those sticks may as well have been the devil in disguise, and still are after probably a hundred hours of desensitization (every day is a new day and an even newer-scarier plastic bag). And this from a horse who, albiet reluctantly, carried flags the drill! You just never know, and you just need to do your best to desensitize them to all sorts of stuff. My 22 yo will NEVER accept a rattling plastic bag without getting upset, yet he's without a doubt my safest kid horse...not because he doesn't get upset, but because he knows that when he does, there are still rules about "how" he reacts. Keep that in mind as you continue to work with him. Good Luck.
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Member:
Julieh
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 21, 2005 - 8:38 am:
I tried feeding apples to Dusty last night out of a plastic bag. He was totally fine with it, never reacted to the bags at all. I tied them in his stall and watched him and he actually played with them. I took him in the arena with the bags on the whip and you would have thought he had never seen them. He pawed, snorted, danced around. One time, he almost ran me down trying to get away from them. I think when they are on that whip, he can't figure out why they are moving. I did get him to a point where he was calm but still unsure with them. I was just shaking the whip on the ground, then I would raise it higher. Seems the higher it would get, the more nervous he was. This really shows all horses react to things very differently and you never really know how they will react to things. I have a QH mare who is very leary of generally all people. We have had her since October and she is just now starting to trust us. She went through the NH training and I have had her in one clinic. The easiest part for her was the de spooking, go figure! She isn't spooked by anything other than people. You can really tell she was mistreated by people, but is very comfortable on the trail and with scary objects. Dusty, on the other hand, is very comfortable with new places, new people, but you put an object in front of him that he doesn't recognize and you better be ready! I put a tarp over the fence last night in the paddock he was in. He was not real sure about that, but eventually he walked over to it and pulled it on the ground. I guess I will just have to make regular sessions of de spooking. I appreciate everyone's ideas, they have really helped me a lot! I know I really need a trail buddy. I am on the prowl for that now. We are new to the area where our barn is, my husband doesn't ride at all and I don't know anyone with horses around there. The only friend I have that rides is an hour away.
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Member:
Cpacer
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 21, 2005 - 10:27 am:
Julie--if you don't mind saying, whereabouts in NC are you?
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Member:
Julieh
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 21, 2005 - 10:36 am:
I live in High Point, NC, our farm is in Trinity, NC.
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Member:
Lilo
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 21, 2005 - 11:30 am:
Julie,
Another thought - no guarantee that it helps. Try moving the plastic bag along the ground away from the horse. You need at least a 12 ft long lead rope, so he can follow at a safe distance. Horse sometimes accept something better when it is moving away from them. Then they get curious and try to get closer.
I remember very clearly when I was doing Parelli Natural Horsemanship with my mare. She was by then cool with the plastic bag - could touch her over her entire body as long as the bag was on the same side as I was. But, I put it over her withers to the other side, and it really spooked her. Remember to do everything from both sides, because of the way a horse sees.
Good luck,
Lilo
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Member:
Terrilyn
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 21, 2005 - 11:56 am:
Lilo brings up a good point. But it's more than how a horse sees. It is how the horse's brain processes information.
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Member:
Julieh
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 21, 2005 - 12:09 pm:
I decided last night I would just leave the bag still on the ground and not move the whip so he could sniff it. He would get close to it but when he sniffed the bag, the bag of course moved and he jumped like he was shot! I did notice he was more receptive to it while it was still and was very curious. But...like I said, when his curiosity got the best of him, it would move and startle him again. I will just keep working with him with it and hopefully he will get a little better about it.
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Member:
Alden
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Posted on Friday, Jul 22, 2005 - 6:52 pm:
Julie,
It sounds to me you didn't find a point your horse was comfortable with the bag and then work closer. If you can go back and look at Clinton Anderson's video, you have to find a distance at which the horse is comfortable before moving closer.
Good day,
Alden
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Member:
Srobert
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 23, 2005 - 1:17 pm:
I have just the opposite problem with one of ours. He is absolutely fearless of anything up close - plastic bags, tarps, slickers, - You can shake them, drape them over him, wear them, have him walk on them while they are fluttering around. Nothing bothers him in the least. But if it's too far away from him he gets freaked. I have to get him next to it as fast as I can to "de-scare" him. As soon as it's up close and personal he's fine with it - just relaxes back to his normal laid back self. Once he's seen it, you can move it away from him and he's okay with that. Too weird....Is it possible that horses can be nearsighted? Maybe he just needs glasses!
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