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Discussion on Arabian Western Pleasure Headset
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Member:
Srobert
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 2, 2005 - 8:39 pm:
Can anyone set me straight on the appropriate headset for an Arabian in Western Pleasure? Our little guy keeps his nose perpendicular (or slightly toward his chest) to the ground and the top of his ears about 2 inches above his withers. Does this sound right or does it need to come down farther? He "competed" in a 4-H production (futurity) show today with a ringful of quarter horses whose heads were WAY>>>>>> down. He moved no faster than the others but "floats" rather than drags his toes along (I don't mean for this to sound negative on the quarter horses, but that is the only way I could figure out to describe the difference). It was like looking at apples and.....watermelons (trying to paint a picture of two VERY different styles here!) He didn't miss a step, was consistent and relaxed excellent transitions but certainly looked nothing like his ring-mates. I guess I am wondering if it is even possible to try to compete in western pleasure against quarter horses (With the preponderance of quarter horses in this area, most judges - including this one - are from the quarter horse circuit.) Any other arab owners out there who wonder if there might be a wee bit of bias against them in western pleasure??? I am usually very understanding of the subjective nature of the entire judging process, but for this one I need to blow off some steam! Perhaps we be better off just sticking with the breed shows? Then again, perhaps I need to stop worrying about what other people think and just enjoy this WONDERFUL horse!!!
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 2, 2005 - 10:19 pm:
It totally depends on the judge. I've shown a lot at open shows with my Arabs. Initially, we were about laughed off the show grounds, being the only none QH/Paint horses. In classes like trail or reining, "points is points" and not a matter of a judge's opinion, so we did better.
Over all, I've found I do much better in bigger open shows where the judge is a qualified open judge,Usually not a local, who is familiar with the criteria of many different breeds. Most of the local judges around here are familiar with only QH & Paints.
To answer your question about head set, Arab judges in Arab shows are looking for the poll of the neck to be about even with the top of the saddle horn and the head to be vertical or "on the bit." They also want a relaxed rein, not a taut one. And, they really want consistency, no head bobbing on transitions, every thing nice and smooth.
I've gotten so I really like the big open shows and we do really well at them. And, our two stallions have sort of a "fan club" now amongst other breed owners who are impressed by how sweet and well behaved my "wild A-rabs" are.
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Member:
Hwood
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 2, 2005 - 11:46 pm:
Firstly and most important, Shari, enjoy your wonderful horse! If you can do that while showing against "peanut roller" QHs (shouldn't be as many "peanut rollers" now since the frame fell out of favor with many folks) then show away. Yes, Arabians have a more "floating" gait than most QHs. It's lovely to watch, but if you are a judge who has trained yourself to look for what most stock horses can do, then you might not be as approving of the natural movement of other breeds. Sara is correct. It all depends on the judge . . . and that makes showing a very frustrating endeavor unless you are competing with yourself and looking for that special feel that comes when you know your horse is on the aids and responsive . . . when the communication between you is fluid and freeing and confidence building . . . When that happens, it doesn't matter what any judge in the world says.
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Member:
Srobert
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 3, 2005 - 8:09 am:
Thanks for the validation. It's my daughter who is showing - I just get to sit an watch! WHicho f course makes it even more frustrating. I think we will look to a different genre and move away from these small shows. THe "peanut roller mentality is alive and well here. Those heads are way below the withers and the 4 beat "lope" is king. We also show a Tennessee Walker and have been told on more than one occasional that he is "lame....!"
We could probably bring that head down just a bit - we have been working mostly with him doing that naturally as he relaxes into the bit. Any tricks of the trade on that or just continue to bring him along slowly?
We just love this willing youngster - and he also has a fan club!!! I must have had a dozen people stop by while she was in the class saying "now, that's how an arab should look!" Hmmm 12 opinions against one. I'll stick with the majority...
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Member:
Srobert
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 3, 2005 - 8:32 am:
FYI Leeladdinn (Rajah) just turned 4 about a week ago. He has been under saddle about a year - but we don't ride in winter much (no indoor ring and lots of ice). We don't want to push him along too quickly, but do want to be working in the right direction. And we, too, get comments about how unflappable this "crazy A-rab" is.
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Member:
Ajudson1
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 3, 2005 - 10:50 am:
Shari,
I just had to get in on this. I used to take my kids to watch shows when they were young so I could show them how NOT to ride. No nose to the ground, no reins you can jump rope through!! (in all fairness, there was plenty they could watch and learn from that was positive)
I have been watching some of the Western Riders-Clinicians on RFD-TV, and I have a question:
How in the heck can a horse see where he's going with his nose so low and tucked?????? What the heck is the purpose of all that?
Enjoy your "crazy A-rab" ..and accept the fact that if your daughter really wants to show and win, she may have to get a Qtr horse because life just isn't fair. Those of us with Arabs know they are special. Just not for everyone.
BTW, I wouldn't bring his head down with draw reins, or anything. Just bring him along slowly.
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Member:
Green007
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 3, 2005 - 11:30 am:
The whole idea behind having a horse in a "frame" is for him to show that he is supple and carries the rider between seat, legs and hand, with no resistance. In order to do that, his jaw must be soft, yes, but it all happens through months of rebalancing half halts and the strengthening of the back muscles as a result.
I have never liked it when horses heads are all the way to the ground with no engagement of the hind legs. Luckily I do not ride or show western so have never felt pressure to do this. On the other hand, there is a wonderful dressage exercise where you allow a horse to gently chew the reins out of your hands until the head is almost touching the ground. This allows the horse to get a full body stretch by BRIEFLY becoming very low in his head and neck and totally relaxing his back muscles. This, however, is a building exercise and not the end goal. The end goal is a soft, supple, happy horse with carrying power.
Forget the "frame" as an end or even a means to an end. The horse's head and neck will raise and lower naturally when things are going well and the horse is ready for more advanced work. Take your time, enjoy your horse, ask for only as much jaw flexion as the horse is willing and able to allow at each stage of training - no draw reins, no pulling, no wire twisted bits, no short cuts. Believe it or not, the slowest way is the fastest way to get to your goal, as you will have less damage to undo down the road.
Enjoy your horse!
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Member:
Srobert
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 3, 2005 - 11:33 am:
Hi Angie: We actually had a "heart to heart" discussion just now and the bottom line is - she doesn't care that much about winning and has no interest in getting a quarter horse just to "win!" She actually does "win" a lot, but the 4-H experience has been less than positive. Brianna won Raj in a competition from the Pennsylvania Arabian Horse Association based on merit (only one horse given away in the entire state). In return, she was to show him in 4-H (they are trying to help promote the breed in 4-H) for a couple of years. She has done that. I think it is time to move on! she is an EXCELLENT rider - western, hunt and saddle seat - and has infinite patience with her young horses. She is also teaching him to drive. I think she would really enjoy learning more about showing this particular breed (we have a walker, and arab, and a morgan- we like to diversify!) and is mature enough to understand she would be starting at the bottom again. I am glad to hear you say forget the artificial aids - we keep getting pressure from a so-called western pleasure "expert" who wants to turn him into a quarter horse with his nose down in the dirt. Some people even suggested we should tie his head up high for a couple of hours before his class. Can you imagine? Not going to happen with our "king of the wind!" We'll just keep moving him along at his pace - and love him of course! (I'll post a pic in a bit)
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Member:
Srobert
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 3, 2005 - 11:39 am:
Debbie: I LOVE your description and the "slowest way is the fastest way" quote. This has been my mantra with this boy. I have worked with a lot of young horses and my biggest concern with Raj is that he is so willing to please that you are tempted to move him along too quickly. We remind ourselves daily that he is a youngster and needs time. Thank you!! Thank you!
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 3, 2005 - 11:54 am:
I was going to jump in here re: "tricks of the "trade" but Debbie already said it. There's several ways to get the horse's head down, but they will leave the hind end dragging out behind. Take your time, use seat and legs and as the horse rounds and collects and learns to work off his hind end, he will naturally DrOp his head into the correct frame.
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Member:
Chohler
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 3, 2005 - 2:35 pm:
Ah nice to know others are having fun with their arabs, I get the crazy thing all the time out here in QH land. I just tell them I will pay money to see their horse out compete mine on a ranch rounding up cattle...........And I don't mean an hour or two I mean everyday, all day, all week long....In some crazy habitat that most horses loose cattle in! I have ridden TB's that were more crazy than any of my lap dog arabs. If alert and ready to go is crazy then bring it on!
The desired headset for arabian judges is a lot higher than that of nose draging other breed types.
Not nocking other breeds, either I have a little bit of everything at my house.
I just participated in a dressage show with my arabian and I was up against QH's that all had the typical western pleasure movement of their breed type, and when I went through my pattern it was if they thought something was wrong with my horse, didn't even know what they were really looking at.
It's good practice though and will prepare me hopefully for arabian shows close to me.
Enjoy your arab they are a masterpiece, I find that most people think they are crazy only because they can't handle anything that has much of a personality.
If anyone wants to share their arabs you can always email me at cherylhohler@hotmail.com
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 3, 2005 - 2:37 pm:
Just one word of caution, Shari, his face should never come behind the vertical. Not even for a split second.
A face behind the vertical means that the rider's hands have overpowered the horse's impulsion and the horse is simply too kind to pull right through the bit.
It also means that the horse is a little bit afraid of the contact, which will, of course, prevent him from lowering his neck and stretching into the bit.
A gentler bit to start with, a better seat (ie better hands) and a lot of long and low work (not in a frame) will certainly turn what sounds like a brilliant horse into an absolute dream.
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Member:
Vickiann
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 3, 2005 - 5:40 pm:
How horrible someone would still suggest something like tying your horse's head up high before a show. That is SUPPOSED to be discouraged now by the QH folks showing, but of course it still happens. I just had one of my beloved Arabs out for a three hour ride, enjoying every gait, including galloping and faster in a Parelli rope halter. (When in a bit, it is a D-ring snaffle, and he does great but we're both having fun bitless lately). Often on the trail my friends and I (several of us ride Arabs) get questions from other riders who still have the mistaken belief Arabs are "crazy" or "high strung," because they usually cannot help but notice what happy, laid-back and agreeable horses we are riding. A friend of mine showed Western Pleasure on one of her Arabs. At first the judges didn't even want to look at her but she did very well in time. Maybe you can find some more Arab shows for your daughter to participate in. Glad to hear she has been out promoting the breed!
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 3, 2005 - 6:03 pm:
Christos, you are so right re: being behind the vertical; however, at shows here in the U.S., both open and breed shows, many of the horses that win are way over-bent and behind the vertical. Many people think that is the way they are supposed to look.
Vicki-heads are not only tied down, they are lounged with heads tied to the chest and off to one side (they switched to the other side) with the head tied so tight the horses have a difficult time breathing. They are also lounged with heads tied to saddles and tails tied to saddles. In spite of the fact that not only the QH breed, but the Arab and other breeds as well as the USEF are all supposedly trying to put an end to this type of thing. It is never the amateur owner doing this, but the trainer and I've never seen anyone disciplined for it.
Not only do I feel it is cruel, I think it is also gives the wrong results. As said before, a horse doesn't learn to round it's back or work with it's hind end under it nor go in the correct frame at all by using these short cuts. So, after reading the rule books, and after reading what the judge is supposed to be looking for, why are these horses winning???
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Member:
Ajudson1
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 3, 2005 - 6:45 pm:
Shari,
Bravo to your daughter!! She sounds like a wonderful girl who loves and appreciates the unique qualities of each breed. I also have had Walkers, Paints, Qtr, Friesion mix, and "mutts"....and my favorite was hands down the wonderful Arab mare we put down in April. She had so much sense, and was so gentle and willing. Now the other one I have...o.k., we won't go there, LOL!
Christos,
You would be just sick watching some of these clinicians here on TV. Although I have learned alot from them, and used some of those techniques myself with positive results, it's still all about the nose waaaay down, behind the vertical, and horses jogging so slow you'd think they are going to fall right over and do a somersalt. I rode a "show horse" one time. Beautiful Palamino. She did everything perfect in the ring, nose down. Had never been on a trail in her life, couldn't extend her trot. Most expensive and most disappointing horse I was ever on.
Whenever an "expert" says use this training aid, or do something this way: Ask WHY? keep asking and if you aren't satisfied with the reasons you are getting, ignore it. There are no short cuts with horses. (Advice I got 20 yrs ago from a 75 yr old cowboy trainer whose western trained horses would of put dressage horses to shame if he'd shown against them)
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Member:
Vickiann
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 3, 2005 - 10:09 pm:
You are so right, Sara and Angie, about these methods being cruel. Over time some of them can cause physical injury and malfunctions in the horses. I read in "Dressage Today" an article that said it is actually ILLEGAL to use draw reins for more than a very brief period on a horse in Germany because they are considered cruel and cause injury. I've seen people riding with them who are obviously impairing their horses ability to have rear impulsion and be forward. When used improperly some of these aids also cause danger to the rider and falls by the horses that could have been avoided. People use these methods as short cuts, but there is no substitute for proper training. I know a woman who tied a young thoroughbred's head and left him in a stall where he later ended up breaking his neck. Of course, as a young racing prospect he was insured! Many people simply do not care, and think of their horses as livestock rather than as partners in fun.
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Member:
Srobert
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 3, 2005 - 10:32 pm:
I am loving this discussion. Please know that Brianna and I are reading every post - several times. She is really encouraged by all of your positive feedback! So many folks forget that having a horse is a privilege. WOuldn't it be great to see some of those folks with THEIR heads tied to their tails! (Maybe this would be a welcome change from where their heads seem to be....) 
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Member:
Srobert
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 3, 2005 - 10:43 pm:
Vicki: I was posting as you wrote your message...I absolutely agree with your comment about "livestock." How sad to think of a young horse dying in such a fashion.
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 3, 2005 - 11:32 pm:
Shari - and Brianna -it sounds to me like you are on the right track with your young gelding. You should post a picture of him and Brianna; I'd love to see it.
It is very sad how a lot of horses, and other animals, are treated. A lot of times it is ignorance; but sometimes it is due to a total disrespect for life I think, and, as always, greed rears its' ugly head, too. There have been a lot of instances, in all the breeds, of trainers doing illegal and cruel things to horses because they think it will turn them into winners sooner. Winners can attract the big name clients and make more money. And,some of the big name clients are not really horse people, but horse owners, and are into horses for an investment and the "fame and glory." They blindly follow their trainers advice, or demand that their trainers win classes no matter what so the owners can collect the big stud fees,etc.
O.k. I'll step down off my "soap box" now.
Good luck to you, Brianna, in the show ring. Enjoy your horse, and ride each ride not to win but to have your best ride possible.
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Member:
Srobert
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 4, 2005 - 8:36 am:
Here's a picture of from a small show early in the season.
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Member:
Srobert
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 4, 2005 - 8:41 am:
And to prove they also know how to have fun - here they are doing pole bending. Look how happy Raj looks! Ears forward, tail flying. They had never done this before - and they WON!!! He is so fast - he has "gears" Brianna has never even shifted to, but then calms right down again - never chews at the bit or throws his head. He's marvelous! 
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Member:
Parfait
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 4, 2005 - 10:47 am:
Oh my goodness! I like him so much! He's quite nice. He looks Polish/CMK???
Reading this discussion reminds me of my childhood. As a girl, I grew up riding Arabs in 4-H that I trained myself. My friends always had very well trained QHs and they were always quite good in all the pattern work and always seemed to have nicer saddles... In the thirty years of competing up through Arabian national level I have learned only to be true to myself. That the "real" training is done at the horse's pace as he builds strength, with dressage principles and that the process is the joy of it. Others will do it quicker and might win more in the short run but there is always a price to pay for speed.
A good Arab is like your best dog. It looks like your daughter has already found that to be true.
Kerry
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Member:
Vickiann
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 4, 2005 - 10:59 am:
Beautiful, thanks for sharing!
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 4, 2005 - 11:35 am:
Thanks so much for the pictures. It looks like Brianna and Raj are having fun and enjoying each other. He's a cute guy, and if he had white socks would look just like a little gelding I have and think the world of (Egyptian.)
Another note - I'm pleased to see your daughter in a helmet!
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Member:
Hwood
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 4, 2005 - 1:19 pm:
As someone who survived a severe head injury from my "pre-helmet" days, I echo Sara's note.
Your daughter has wonderful lower leg position, and your little Arabian is adorable. I just love a bay or dun.
Have a great rest of your summer riding and/or showing.
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Member:
Srobert
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 4, 2005 - 2:31 pm:
You guys are the best. Thanks for all the positive feedback. He is indeed Polish - granddaddy was Aladdinn on both sides. Stands just over 15 hands (Brianna is quite tall). She will appreciate your comment about her legs Holly. She works hard on that (0f course when you are flying through poles that all goes to heck...) I am a professor of speech-language pathology and have worked with my share of folks who have suffered head trauma from various sources. Helmets are just a given around here.
Okay - so we are on the right track. Going slowly, enjoying ourselves, and finding some more arabs (and lovers of arabs) to hang around with! IN a few short days we have gone from "why do we do this" to "aren't we lucky to be able to do this?" You have all been such a great help. Can't thank you enough
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 4, 2005 - 3:06 pm:
nothing against those of you with other breeds, btw. I love all horses; just think Arabs are special. ( And, once in a while us Arab owners have to stick together.)
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Member:
Ajudson1
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 4, 2005 - 6:44 pm:
Beautiful, and I am glad also to see the helmet even though it's with a Western saddle. I get so sick of the "fashions for show" stuff. Safety FIRST is our motto too.
How old is Brianna? They look great together.
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Member:
Srobert
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 4, 2005 - 7:09 pm:
She just turned 17. In terms of the helmet, youth are required to wear them at many of the shows in this area - and most don't bother trying to camoflauge it with a huge cowboy hat. We just color-coordinate!
Raj whinnies when she turns into the driveway and actually runs toward the gate for her to come and hang out with him. She loves our other horses - but she is ga ga over him....
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 4, 2005 - 7:50 pm:
The feeling must be mutual!
I sure wish helmets were required around here. You see little kids running barrels and poles with not one wearing a helmet. Of course, you still see little kids and dogs riding in the back of pick-ups with the parents in front,too!
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Member:
Dyduroc
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Posted on Friday, Aug 5, 2005 - 2:27 pm:
Shari, Brianna and Raj are a beautiful pair and they look like they're having such fun in the pole-bending picture! You have to love any horse that enjoys his job as much as Raj seems to enjoy his! Much success to Brianna and Raj as they continue to train and develop together!
D.
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Member:
Srobert
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Posted on Sunday, Aug 7, 2005 - 3:52 pm:
You guys aren't going to believe this! We took Raj to a show this weekend and he WON the western pleasure class. Then, just for fun, she took him in saddle seat. He has had a saddle seat saddle on his back exactly twice. Can you guess what happened? 2nd place!
So, here's the pictures of the two "faces" of Raj and Brianna. (She wants you all to know she was giving him a little kick on the outside leg in the western picture - that's not her usual leg position!)
Yes, arabs are amazing.....
 
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Sunday, Aug 7, 2005 - 5:08 pm:
All Right!! Good for the two of them! Now, was that an open show? Arab show? Looks like maybe a QH in the back ground? Raj and Brianne both look good. He needs (as you know) more work on his head set is all. Brianne has great posture on him.
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Member:
Hwood
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Posted on Sunday, Aug 7, 2005 - 5:30 pm:
I haven't done saddleseat myself. I have watched a fair share of saddleseat shows at the Eastern States Exposition in Massachusetts. Is the saddleseat saddle too far forward on Raj? It seems to be too much on his withers from my perspective, but I am no expert when it comes to saddleseat. Brianne and Raj look elegant, especially in the saddleseat picture.
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Sunday, Aug 7, 2005 - 5:54 pm:
How exciting. Congtratulations!!!!!!!!
Arabians are the best. Can you tell I love them . Way to go. I wish more people new how versitile and wonderful this breed is in every diseplin. My arabs dad was a reining champion. My horse jumps does dressage, a little reining he is the best trail horse, we always place in hunter paces he does anything and everything with great enthusiasium.
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Member:
Ajudson1
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Posted on Sunday, Aug 7, 2005 - 6:39 pm:
What a wonderful team they are!!!  Did he have professional training or did Brianna do all the work with him herself? I was under the impression she did all the training, if so, she did GREAT. I just shared the pictures with my 11 yr old daughter for "inspiration".
I think that the saddle is too far forward, or maybe too long? These wonderful Arabs can be hard to fit, I rode one of ours with a too long saddle for yrs before someone pointed it out to me. I still have trouble keeping the saddle back on my mare, so I'd check into the saddle fit issue so you don't have problems with a sore back, or shoulder/withers.
DrO needs to add some new icons here, like Blue Ribbons!!! Trophies!!!
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Member:
Srobert
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Posted on Sunday, Aug 7, 2005 - 6:43 pm:
Holly: I think the saddle is a bit forward on him. This actually belongs to his TWH buddy. We have another we might try on him instead. Sara: His headset is not his best "work" in the western pic - he is usually a bit more vertical, and slightly lower but its the only picture I had time to snap (there were sulkies whizzing by on the track next to him and he kept trying to "sneak a peek") I think the contrast between the two is pretty wild. This was an open show with a bit of everything there - but mostly QH. Her usual saddle seat horse is still going a bit short on the back where he severed a tendon last year. She wanted to see if she would be able to substitute raj in his saddleseat classes for an important show next week. That's really the only reason we went today. But, they placed all day long in both disciplines - and the judge made a special point to tell her that she was impressed with them as a pair. Katrina - I love the comment on the enthusiasm - that's what I see too! Anyway, just had to share. I think I prefer the saddle seat look. What do you think?
Anyway, thanks for being out there to crow to!!
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Member:
Srobert
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Posted on Sunday, Aug 7, 2005 - 6:48 pm:
We also had about a 2 minute tack change to change horse and rider tack. I threw the saddle on - quickly. Very possible I just set it too far forward. But we may have to go hunting for a saddle for him. We had a time finding a western saddle that fit as well. We'll get going on that.
Brianna and I have done all the training, but I have had horses my whole life - and done a fair amount of showing as well. It's just the arabs that are new to us!
We'll get to work on the saddle issue....
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Member:
Dyduroc
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Posted on Sunday, Aug 7, 2005 - 9:13 pm:
Shari, that is wonderful! Congratulations to you, Brianna and Raj!
D.
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Member:
Parfait
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Posted on Monday, Aug 8, 2005 - 2:02 am:
Great News! They both look terrific! He looks like he enjoyed his english class a bunch. Thanks for sharing with us, Shari.
K
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Member:
Alden
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Posted on Monday, Aug 8, 2005 - 10:32 am:
Shari,
I think your gelding is happy with his job and that is much more important than where he is carrying his head.
I'd not worry about head carriage, I believe that that will come natural if the horse is soft and responsive on the bit. In the saddle seat he looks more on the muscle (that will bring the head up), maybe because the saddle was a little too far forward.
As for Arabs, I'm a partial converted non-arab person. I just started riding an 11yro Arab stallion that has several Russian family members and looks a lot like your gelding. I really like this heavier boned type of Arab. I think a lot of people have a bad taste for the Arab horse because most arab horses are smarter than the owners.
Good day,
Alden
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Member:
Vickiann
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Posted on Monday, Aug 8, 2005 - 11:59 am:
Congratulations on a great show day! Alden is right about Arabs often being smarter than their owners. If I have a mental error when riding on the drill team, my horse tries to correct me by not listening to what I am asking until I really INSIST he do something at the wrong time or place! It is necessary to keep changing things with them so you "don't teach assumptions." (Parelli) He also learns complicated trails after one time out on them in addition to learning routines very quickly. If you communicate well with them and they understand your request, they work very hard to do a perfect job and seem to take true pride in a job well done.
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Member:
Srobert
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Posted on Monday, Aug 8, 2005 - 2:35 pm:
Thanks for all the helpful feedback. It has been so fun to engage in a little mutual arabian love-festing~
We tried the saddle on again today. I am used to putting it on a much longer back, but we were able to position it much better with a little more time and a critical eye. You are so right - we definitely don't want a sore-backed horse here.
Thanks for just being out there. It has been a difficult week around here in areas not related to horses (yes, there are other things in life!)and you have all been a wonderful support system just when we needed it. We are so grateful.
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Member:
Canter
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Posted on Friday, Aug 12, 2005 - 8:16 am:
Hi Shari,
I thought I'd come here to post for some Saddleseat help since your daughter has done so well.
A young friend of mine has just joined her high school equestrian team. She is an excellent western rider and has shown successfully at barrel racing. However, with the equestrian club, she needs to mix up her skills a bit and will likely pick up Saddleseat (apparently, no-one else wants to do it). She will have no good instruction, so I was hoping that you or anyone else would give me a few pointers to pass along to her (I have no clue...I ride dressage)
So...if you had to pass along a few Saddleseat pointers, what would they be? Is the position in the saddle different from other disciplines and how so? (looks to me Saddleseat riders ride with a longer leg and higher hands than your "basic" English position?). What is the judge looking for (keeping in mind these kids will be riding on non-Saddleseat trained horses). What is done in the show ring? Is it a test as in dressage, judging the horse?
Any and all help that any HA members can pass on to my friend would be greatly appreciated!
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Member:
Srobert
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Posted on Friday, Aug 12, 2005 - 9:33 am:
Hi Fran: Believe it or not, I am the advisor of our university's equestrian team, so I know a bit about how they work. As you noted, for saddleseat, the leg position is longer and the hands are higher (generally a 90 degree angle). The post is quite different than hunt seat - it is more straight up and down as opposed to up and forward. Legs from the knees down should be very still and heels down at all times.
It will be a bit tricky to do this with a hunt-type horse as the post is really accomplished by the horse literally pushing the rider up out of the seat (saddleseat horses move along at a good clip) - but it's doable. She will want to urge the horse to a quicker pace if possible to make it a bit easier for her. Also, a hunt horse is going to have a naturally lower head position so the hands are going to be naturally lower - she will want to hold them up a bit higher - but overexaggerating the hand position on a hunt horse won't make a pretty picture, so compromise is the key.
At the college level, equestrian team events are only judged on the rider since the horses are selected by draw just before the event. I imagine this is going to be true for the high school level as well. So, they will be looking at her position and riding skills. There are no "tests" in Saddleseat. (Occasionally judges will set up a pattern, as in western horsemanship but many of the saddleseat folk we have ridden with complain loudly about this). As in any equitation class, the rider is judged at all gaits going both directions of the ring. One thing to know is that in ss, you reverse to the outside of the ring, rather than to the inside. Generally, you enter at a trot unless instructed otherwise. If you use a whip, it is held in the inside hand and changed on the reverse.
I would suggest that your daughter look for the saddleseat book by Helen Crabtree (I'll have to go look up the exact title). You can find it on ebay for less than $10. There is also a video that is also helpful. I'll post the exact titles in a bit.
If your young friend would like to communicate with Brianna directly, I know she would be willing to share her ideas as well. She was in the top five at the state competition with our Tennessee Walker last year in saddleseat, so she really could pass along so good tips (AND she learned to ride the seat using only videos, books, and her mom standing in the middle of the ring shouting dubious suggestions!!!) Let me know if she is interested and I'll send you an email address.
Best wishes!!!
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Member:
Srobert
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Posted on Friday, Aug 12, 2005 - 9:45 am:
BTW, we solved the saddle sitution. As suggested, this one was too long and too "built up" for this boy. Although it fit our walker wonderfully, it kept sliding forward on Raj no matter what we did. We have another that is much "flatter" with a more pronounced cut-back and its sits right down on his back rather than "perching" up on top. It's also a lot slippery-er (is this a word?) to sit on! But, it stays put and keeps Brianna in the right position - on his back rather than on his shoulders!!
It is interesting that his western training seems to have really stood him in good stead for saddleseat. He is very calm on transitions and requires only light contact on the bit - no charging around the ring. It's a weird combination, but when she takes contact off the bit, he puts his head down and moves slowly, when she takes up the reins, he brings his head up and moves off smartly. I think he is enjoying the variety. We did not originally think he would be a saddleseat horse, but my guess is that is the direction they are moving now. Since this is really Brianna's forte, I guess that's a good thing. (Anyone want to buy a really nice Billy Cook western saddle??? }
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Member:
Srobert
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Posted on Sunday, Aug 14, 2005 - 11:11 pm:
Per your suggestions, we went to watch an A rated Arabian show today. It was the "championship" day. We asked LOTS of questions and met lots of VERY friendly people. It was a great experience. From what we saw today, this is a much better venue for us. We were able to get information on how to get into the loop in terms of where shows are held in our area and figured out what some of the strange abbreviations mean in the show brochures (who knew AAOTR meant Amateur Adult Owner to Ride???) Thanks for pointing us in the right direction. Best wishes to all.
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Member:
Canter
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Posted on Monday, Aug 15, 2005 - 8:28 am:
Shari,
Thanks so much for your response...I will pass the info on to my friend.
All the best,
Fran
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