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Discussion on Transitioning from Severe Bit to Gentle
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Member:
Julieh
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 11, 2005 - 4:38 pm:
Hello Everyone,
Since I have brought my gelding show horse home from the trainer, I am trying to transition him from the severe bit he was ridden and trained in to a more gentle bit. I have only had him a few months, and the limited amount of knowledge I have in all of this has really put me at a disadvantage. I did not realize the severity of this bit until lately. I do not know the name of it, but the port is very high and it has something on the end of it that turns. I have been trying to ride him in a snaffle, but going from severe to this gentle is like turning him out to run. He is not aggressive or anything like that, he just does not respond to it at all. What is the best way to transition this way? He is only 5 and has been trained and ridden all his life with this type of bit. Is the transition possible and can this be done with someone as limited in training as I am, or should I seek the help of a professional trainer? Any advice would be appreciated!
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Member:
Dres
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 11, 2005 - 4:55 pm:
transitions .. transitions.. TRANSITIONS... Julie what I mean by this is... walk/ halt .. walk/trot/ halt...**I would not go further to the canter / trot transitions till you have the slower paced ones down...** all the time using your body first then the squeeze of the hands...yes, you can re teach your horse to be lighter on your aides thus using a ''gentler'' bit... my granddaughter, 9 years old, is retraining her pony who came with a severe bit, cus she had no stop in her.. HA!~ she is becoming very sensitive to my granddaughter now... but it has been 1,000 of transitions... be patient.. take your time... and do transitions .. transitions .. TRANSITIONS... 
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with SPOTS..
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Member:
Hwood
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 11, 2005 - 5:07 pm:
Julie,
Yes, Yes, Yes! It is possible to transition from a more severe bit to a less severe, and bless your heart for caring enough to provide your horse with an easier choice. The port of the bit isn't what really determines it's severity. The length of the shanks (longer is more severe) and the tightness of the curb chain is what can make a curb bit more severe than a snaffle. Still . . . a curb bit used in knowledgeable hands is less severe than a snaffle used with rough hands. The "turning thing" is probably a cricket . . . usually copper, that gives the horse a way to focus on his mouth by encouraging him to play with the bit, and it encourages salivation which helps to make the horse's mouth more sensitive.
I would start from the ground with the snaffle in place and just do "give to the bit exercises." (explained elsewhere on this site and in many training books) When you decide to get up on top, continue the exercises at a stand still and walk . . . don't worry about where the horse is going (an arena is best for this work).
The fact that your horse doesn't give to the pressure you apply on the snaffle leads me to believe that he wasn't trained to give easily to the pressure applied to the curb, either. Whenever you start something new, start with the slowest pace and give it lots of practice . . . when your horse gets excellent at giving from the ground and at the walk, then try trot.
I recommend John Lyons's cassette tape series as well as Clinton Andersons videos. There are other trainers who have videos and teaching materials available as well. We are the ones working with the horses and feeling and seeing their responses, so we are the ones who need to be trained . . . THEN we can train our horses.
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Member:
Green007
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Posted on Friday, Aug 12, 2005 - 8:02 am:
Julie,
Both Ann and Holly have great suggestions. The only thing I want to add is to go back in your horses training, get books about breaking in horses and just start all over again from the ground up. Get your horse really, really solid on verbal commands from the ground so you have that tool handy under saddle. If you teach your horse a solid "Whoa" from the ground, and make him stand there, you will always have that if you need an "emergency brake."
Then, when things are going well, onward to those transitions, transitions, transitions which will eventually become half halts. Once you are really riding your horse from the hind end, and not the face, at that point you can ride in any bit you want.
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Member:
Ajudson1
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Posted on Friday, Aug 12, 2005 - 8:27 am:
Everyone above gave excellant advice. I wanted to add that I have a horse I am retraining to go "softer" and it is working. And Holly is right, it was me that needed "to be trained so I could train the horses". (I love that, Holly)
My mare went from a snaffle and lots of ground driving, to mounted work, to a shanked bit that I used 4 reins on. Now we are back to a mild snaffle and my 11 yr old daughter is riding her.
This can be done. Read all you can and start slowly with ground work and remember to reward for the smallest try. Horses are very forgiving and want to please; your horse will breath a sigh of relief and be much happier with a less severe bit.
Some encouragement: After 12 yrs of the more severe bit, I could see/feel a difference in a matter of hours with the snaffle. It's all about learning to use your seat, not pulling straight back, teaching your horse to move away from your leg (disengaging the hind quarters). All these things make a horse "lighter" in the mouth and more responsive.
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Member:
Green007
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Posted on Friday, Aug 12, 2005 - 8:43 am:
One last thing. Before you start this intensive re-training program, have your horse's teeth checked for sharp edges and floated if there are any.
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Member:
Dyduroc
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Posted on Friday, Aug 12, 2005 - 10:26 am:
Julie, lots of good advice here.
Just like Holly and Angie said, it was me who needed the training so I could re-train my horse! She's a big girl (Clydesdale) and was harness trained before I got her and was apparently allowed to grab the bit and lean on it because that's how she handled the bit when I started riding her.
Thanks to the talent of the trainer we're working with, we've gone from having a wrestling match every time I got in the saddle to where we're making progress with lovely things like rounding out and working from behind, impulsion, flexion, tempo, maintaining a frame in transitions, etc. No more ported curb bits for us--a loose ring snaffle works just fine!
Angie hit the nail on the head when she wrote, "Horses are very forgiving and want to please; your horse will breath a sigh of relief and be much happier with a less severe bit."
Lots of luck Julie. Please keep us posted on your progress.
D.
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Member:
Julieh
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Posted on Friday, Aug 12, 2005 - 11:45 am:
Thanks everyone for all your great suggestions. I understand the concept of "giving to the bit" but I need to research more to make sure I know what I am looking for when it happens. I went to a clinic and learned the lateral flexions where you bend his head to the side and release as soon as he releases. Also, vertical flexion as well. Other than that, I am a little unsure as to what to do for this. I have books to read up on and am SURE I can find any information possible on this site. It is amazing that I had horses a few years ago, but never knew any of this and really never wanted to know more than how to get on and ride. Now, since we have gotten back in to horses after several years of being out of it, I am learning so much more. But, I am also so afraid of doing something wrong. I have heard so much about telling them something with your body, then your hands. I am assuming what is meant by telling with your body - sitting down in the seat to slow or stop?
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Friday, Aug 12, 2005 - 12:24 pm:
I love these posts...thanks for posting that question. Be prepared for a WEALTH of information to inundate you from our resident experts
I can't wait!!
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Member:
Green007
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Posted on Friday, Aug 12, 2005 - 12:41 pm:
Julie,
What you are talking about is the basic motion of half halting. It is amazing what horses can feel on their backs. They can feel a fly, and they can feel everything you do. If you round your shoulders or tilt your head, they feel it and adjust accordingly. They are amazing creatures! Your best bet is to attend one of these clinics on your horse, or go watch as many of your local instructors as you can teaching lessons until you find an instructor that you truly feel can help you. There is nothing better than a good eye on the ground, no matter how experienced you are. I have ridden and competed for years, but sometimes I will have my husband video tape me and it is amazing how different the picture looks from what it feels like sometimes!
As far as sitting down in your seat to make the horse slow down, this cab be difficult to master because many people who first try this make a muscle in their buttocks when they do it, which is a very tense position that makes the horse scoot out from under them (much like you would do if someone suddenly jabbed you in the back with their finger). The rider thinks they are "sitting deep" to slow the horse down, but really they are grinding into the horses back with a tense seat, which actually speeds the horse up! When you "sit deeper," you must do it from your core (just behind your belly button). Pull up tall in front, brace your back and allow your seat bones to gently "plug in" to your saddle. Do not grind into your horse's back when you do this, carry yourself very tall when you do it. This is what slows the horse down, not just a heavy seat. This is where a good ground person can really help you.
All this said, don't be afraid to make mistakes. No matter how many lessons you take, no matter how many years you ride, there is always a certain amount of experimentation that happens at all levels. Each horse is different from the next, and the only way to find out what works with your horse is to try different things with him until you find the right "buttons." Yes, it is a good thing to read all the books you can and do things "classically." However, take a risk, make some mistakes, it is not the end of the world. It is only by finding out what doesn't work that you will be able to narrow things down to what does work.
Good luck!
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Member:
Julieh
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Posted on Friday, Aug 12, 2005 - 1:14 pm:
When I first joined HA, I sat back and read daily all the posts, but I was afraid to ask, what I thought were dumb questions. Finally, I bit the bullet and thought this is what this site is here for! Thanks Dr. O for what has become my new best friend!!! I love this site and I love all the helpful people who are here daily for all of my "dumb questions".
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Member:
Ajudson1
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Posted on Friday, Aug 12, 2005 - 6:43 pm:
Debbie,
You just did a wonderful job of describing the art of a half halt and halt useing your seat. I just started that myself a few months ago after hearing my daughters riding instructor tell her how to halt. My first thought was, o.k., that's "Dressage" I ride western, so we sit down deep to halt, right?? (trying to learn more "English" techniques on my own) See, here I am again getting "trained" by someone else's question and the advice that follows. And btw, that half halt method you described works, but lots of people besides me already knew that!!
Julie,
thanks for asking your questions, which weren't dumb questions at all. It's amazing how much we all DON'T know when we start trying to become better horsemen. Err...horsewomen.
It's all about the progress, the path of getting "there". Of course when you get "there", you'll want to move on to something else. At least that's how it is with me!
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Member:
Ajudson1
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Posted on Friday, Aug 12, 2005 - 6:47 pm:
BTW Debbie,
I am printing your post to add to our training "file", that's how much I liked it. Hope you don't mind, but I need the written word to refer to, at least until I get a chance at riding lessons myself. Imagine, riding lessons after riding for 35 yrs!!
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Member:
Brandi
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Posted on Friday, Aug 12, 2005 - 9:09 pm:
Angie, I had to laugh at your last comment. I can relate so well, as I've been riding about that long too, but only started taking lessons a few short years ago. My non-horsey friends (and ALL of my teenage barn brats) think I'm crazy when I talk about taking lessons. "What the heck else could you learn that you don't already know after riding for 30 some years?"  they say! I think it means you've now learned enough to know that there's so much more to learn! When we were younger we thought we knew it all and what we didn't know we were determined to figure out on our own! At least I was. I love taking lessons when I can afford the time and $$, I just can't settle on what kind of lesson...hmm this year I think I'd finally like to take those dressage lessons (after reading about it for 8 years and trying to teach myself!), the past 2 years it was Parelli NH, and I've done western stuff of varying degrees all through out the past few years. It's all so fun and there's just so much I don't know or don't know if I'm doing it "right". At least I never get bored!
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Member:
Dyduroc
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Posted on Friday, Aug 12, 2005 - 10:49 pm:
Angie and Brandi, you have no idea how much better I feel after reading your posts. I was a trail hack for many years and only started taking lessons 14 months ago. It's a little overwhelming at times to realize how much there is to learn and I get the impression that this is only the tip of the iceberg!
Does this mean we're finally growing up?
D.
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Friday, Aug 12, 2005 - 11:51 pm:
Hah, "girls" I've got you beat! I'm taking lessons and I've been riding for 60+ yrs! The more I learn, the more I know there is to learn! And...it's fun, besides!
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Member:
Dyduroc
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Posted on Saturday, Aug 13, 2005 - 12:52 am:
OMG, Sara, I was embarrassed to admit that I hacked around for over 40 years before the light bulb went on over my head! You've got me beaten by a few years!
The paradox with education is that the more you learn, the more you realize how little you actually know!
I'll take learning how to ride over book learning any day! You got that one right--it's fun!
D.
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Member:
9193
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Posted on Saturday, Aug 13, 2005 - 1:45 pm:
I've been following this post and this morning's turn regarding lessons for adults is wonderful.. I am "coming back" to horses after a 35 year break and my 14 year old daughter started giving me lessons a couple of weeks ago so that I can practice all this dressage that I have been watching her learn for the last three years..
It has been so much fun and is certainly different from the "lessons" I got in 4-H so many years ago. I'm lovin' it!!
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Member:
Ajudson1
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Posted on Saturday, Aug 13, 2005 - 2:36 pm:
Ladies,
When my daughters riding instructor started telling about how she's still taking lessons (from some famous Dressage Riders, who I of course never heard of) and then started telling us stories of other people she's given lessons to...and it turns out we had a good laugh cuz we know some of these people...then she told us about the lady in her mid 60's who's just learning how to ride....well, I figured it was time to admit I know alot less than I thought. The neat thing is between the lessons I watch, RFD-TV, and what I read here, I just get so PASSIONATE about wanting to do more, and do it BETTER. As long as I can still crawl on a horse, I hope I am still learning how to be a better rider.
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Member:
Brandi
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Posted on Sunday, Aug 14, 2005 - 2:18 am:
This is great...ain't life with horses (and "old" girlfriends) just grand? Cheers to us all, I say!
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Member:
Green007
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Posted on Monday, Aug 15, 2005 - 8:21 am:
Cheers to all!
Two more things to remember when half halting:
1) When you sit up tall, you are getting yourself off the forehand! Then, the horse can come off of his forehand, too.
2) Imagine that your horse is a sailboat, and you are the sail. Allow the wind to "blow" your sails full from behind, so that your belly button is forward, your shoulders back and your thighs stretching down into a deep knee, calves stretching down into deep heels. This image always helps me when I feel I am hunched too far forward with rounded shoulders and tucked belly like I have been shot in the chest! Don't let the winds blow you from the front, let them blow you from the back. Fill your sails!
Have fun riding, ladies! My father took up riding in his 40s and can ride a half halt with the best of them now. He still foxhunts regularly, and he is in his mid 60s. His horses are always under control, even at a full gallop, because he has truly mastered the half halt. You can too!
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Monday, Aug 15, 2005 - 11:06 am:
I am firmly in the mind that the more you know, the more you realize you do not know about horses and riding
It's always a gift to receive more and more information on the fabulous "journey" we are all on ... Thank you all
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Member:
Julieh
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Posted on Monday, Aug 15, 2005 - 11:22 am:
I am with you Aileen! The more I know and the more I realize I don't know, the more nervous I get of the things I DON'T know. Does that make sense??? So much information, so little time......
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Monday, Aug 15, 2005 - 2:14 pm:
Yes, it makes complete sense
A wise master of dressage once said something to the effect that you could be on the journey for 30 years, and you still wouldn't even be any where near obtaining all the knowledge there is to learn.
Horses try to teach us to have patience along the way...doesn't always work ... but my horse is trying his darndest!
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Member:
Dyduroc
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 16, 2005 - 7:45 am:
Debbie, the image of sailboat and sail makes so much sense! I've been struggling with 'sitting deep' without tensing the muscles in my buttocks. Thank you for describing the half halt in such simple, yet effective, terms!
I'm off to the barn in a few minutes to try out this new piece of information.
Aileen, I wonder if horses have their own set of training manuals with topics like, "How to Test A Rider's Patience" or "Keep 'Em Guessing"?
D.
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Member:
Lhenning
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 16, 2005 - 10:57 am:
Debbie,
Thanks so much for your detailed descriptions of half halt. I have been working on this lately, but I have a question. At a trot, what is different between a half halt and a sitting trot? I guess my thinking was that I relax more for the half halt, but I bounced in the saddle like a novice. Especially since I was trying to use your advice to keep my butt muscles very loose. That produced a slapping kind of ride. Yes, it slowed my horse down, but probably because my bouncing butt was uncomfortable to him. If I sit deep, using my legs and abs, it feels like a sitting trot and doesn't slow him down. Where am I going wrong?
Thanks for your help.
Linda
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Member:
Green007
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 16, 2005 - 11:57 am:
Linda,
I didn't say it was easy! There is such thing as being too tight, but there is also such thing as being too loose. It sounds like you may have some stiffness in your hip joint. If so, no matter how much you relax your waist, you will bounce. Try pilates for this, its wonderful for the hip joints.
While it is true that you don't want to make a muscle with your buttocks, you DO need to use some muscle tone to "hold yourself" into the saddle. It is almost a "bearing down" kind of feeling. Too little grip, you bounce. Too much grip, you bounce. Not so easy!
Think about what you would do on a trampoline to make it bounce if you had no legs. That is the same motion you must make with your hips and lower abs in order to follow the horses trot in good balance. It does involve some muscle tension, but doesn't involve your buttocks!
As far as sitting trot, it could very well be that your horse is not ready for such deep sitting yet. You can half halt in the posting trot or even in 2-point/galloping position by just opening your hip angles and pulling your upper body tall with rein contact.
I rarely even try sitting the trot until my horse is in a nice relaxed rhythm and is coming softly into the bridle. If you want to work on sitting trot, try doing it for just a handful of strides at a time, before your horse has had a chance to hollow his back and bounce you out of the saddle.
The better the horse feels, the better you will sit. The better you sit, the better your horse will feel. The opposite is also true, so if you feel you are both spiraling into increasing tension, come back to a walk and reorganize yourselves. If you feel you and your horse are both getting better and softer and more rhythmic with each stride, expand your time at sitting trot. In the meantime, there is no reason why you shouldn't half halt at posting trot. Watch a show jumping rider sometime. Their fannies hardly ever touch the saddle, but their horses collect and expand every time they open and close their hip angles. No need to sit until you are both ready!
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Member:
Lhenning
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 16, 2005 - 1:49 pm:
Thanks Debbie. I ride western and have never done dressage. A sitting trot in a western saddle does not seem so complicated; I think that's what the saddles were designed for. It comes rather naturally when I let my horse get down to his own little jog trot.
The half halt method of slowing down was told to me by my trainer, who has been working my 4 year old for trail riding. (He kept speeding up, bucking, and getting out of control while heading back to the barn). This thread has been very informative on ways to keep control without using a harsh bit, even if some of us are adapting the ideas to different forms of riding. Your descriptions are very helpful and have given me some idea of where to work toward. I do think my hips are tight so I will start doing those pilates tonight!
Happy trails,
Linda
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Member:
Chance1
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 16, 2005 - 2:13 pm:
One thing that I have found that works to help sit and slow down the horse, is to relax the muscles of the inner thigh. Easy to say, but takes some practice. I learned this in a refinement clinic and the results were terrific.
Happy trails and a smooth ride! Ruth
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 16, 2005 - 2:23 pm:
In addition to the above, I was told to breathe out slowly while asking, but maybe that was to halt the horse? I can't remember it's been so dang long since I've sat in a saddle.
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Member:
Dyduroc
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 17, 2005 - 6:21 am:
So much for good intentions! Yesterday was the 'two steps backward' in the 'three steps forward, two steps backward' progress we've made in transitioning to a softer bit. We spent the entire hour doing remedial work on the 'whoa' command.
This isn't meant to discourage you from trying a softer bit, Julie. Just wanted to share that there can be (and often are) setbacks.
All we did for the hour of ring work was forward motion (walk/trot only) with lots of halts or halt/stand. I varied the distance between halts, anywhere from 1 lap of the arena to 2-3 halts on the long side mixed with circles and figure eights.
If anyone has suggestions on other exercises/combinations, I'd appreciate hearing them.
D.
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Member:
Julieh
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 17, 2005 - 8:40 am:
I had one of those days too, D. On Saturday, we worked only on halts and halt/stand. It was hot and humid and miserable and he was miserable as well. At one point during our working process, I made him stand and he went to sleep. All of the sudden, he jumped, what seemed like a mile. He just about jumped out from under me. I wasn't ready for that. He has never done that before. Seemed the whole entire time he was miserable, mad, or just jumpy, not a good day for that! We will try again. Has anyone had a horse who hated to be ridden bareback? I tried at first to ride him bareback, for the first time. He swished his tail and actually tried to bite my foot! I put the saddle on him and he was fine. I was a little surprised by that.
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Member:
Green007
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 17, 2005 - 9:10 am:
The biggest problem with horses is that they don't always read the same training books and internet search sites as we do.
The 3 most important rules of training horses are:
1) Patience
2) Patience
3) Patience
and a good ground person who can see things you may be missing.
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Member:
Lilo
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 17, 2005 - 11:05 am:
This is a wonderful thread. Keep the suggestions coming.
Thanks,
Lilo
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Member:
Hwood
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 17, 2005 - 11:43 am:
Yes, some horses can't handle bareback because of the concentration of pressure from our seatbones in such a small spot on their backs. I had a TBX gelding who would buck whenever ridden bareback . . . he needed the larger surface area of a saddle to disperse the pressure of a rider.
There are no short cuts to training for "Whoa." It was an eye-opener for me when John Lyons said, "We can't MAKE a horse stand still, but we CAN make him move."
Clinton Anderson has a wonderful video in his first riding series that shows him teaching "whoa" on a trotting horse. It takes time, patience and repetition . . . Some horses will figure it out faster . . . some will figure it out, and then decide they don't want to do it, and then will finally "agree."
Just for encouragement . . . I have often had a really rough day of training when I felt the horse just would NEVER "get" what I was trying to teach . . . and then then next day, he would do it like a pro. I think that sometimes, they just need to sleep on it.
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Member:
Brandi
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Posted on Monday, Aug 22, 2005 - 11:34 pm:
Some of my biggest "Ah-ha" moments and successes have come quite abruptly after a bout of fit-throwing, teeth-clenched cursing, carrot-stick tossing and sobbing: "I'm too stupid, my horse is too stupid, the whole world is too stupid, and we'll never, ever get this!!" Maybe its that my horse sees me breaking down and decides its time to give me a break before things get really bad, or maybe it's just that it sometimes has to be that difficult to get over certain obstacles, I'm not sure. But it has certainly happened often enough that I am actually learning from it and being more patient. And I tell my lesson kids and riding buddies all the time now that if they're really frustrated, they just might be on the verge of something really great, so don't give up. Maybe that applies here, so don't give up, if it feels like the right path, stick with it a little longer and you just might have one of those great Ah-ha moments very soon!
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