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  Discussion on What is the heartiest jumping breed?
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 3, 1999 - 12:43 pm:

Hi everyone:
Thank god for this web site!!! I have a question. I have been having really bad luck since I purchased my 8-yr-old TB gelding. He's got heaves, he's had an abscess on a rear hind foot, and now he's lame in front - don't know why yet. My question is, is it just him or are all TBs like this. Should I try to find another TB or is the warmblooded horse a better choice. Just plain and simple I am tired of riding other horses and I would like to be able to ride my own. I just want a relible - within reason, horse to ride the jumpers with. Am I asking too much? Can anyone out there make any suggestions? Thanks, Liz.

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 3, 1999 - 1:17 pm:

Hi Liz,
It is probably like all breeds, some are better than others healthwise and in certain disciplines. I have heard that TBs are more prone to health problems but then there will be variation within this group. Some will be healthy and never have a sick day in their life, while others will have one thing after another. My TB has a lot of hoof problems, generally throwing shoes but also has had a couple of abcesses. I guess only you have to assess how inconvenient it is to your riding. You did not mention how long you had your horse or if he was off the track.

Carol

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 3, 1999 - 1:28 pm:

Hello Elizabeth,
It seems that you have had bad luck with your TB, and I can understand that you are tired of riding other horses [I've been through this so many times, that I know how you feel!].

I do believe that thoroughbreds are more fragile than other breeds, and more prone to leg problems. I don't know if your chap raced, but we see here all the time that tb's off the track rarely are completely sound, or rarely stay sound all the time. But one cannot generalise, of course, and some tb's are really strong and sturdier than others.

My first tb, bought 1982 at 10 years old, was really fit until he was 14 years old, when he was diagnosed with navicular disease, but he had raced hard until he was 7 years old, so it was not surprising. Although I had to retire him totally at 17 years old, he stayed fit and healthy until I lost him when he was 23. My horses since then have unfortunately been fairly fragile.

I look now at my next tb's veterinary record for the first year :
- biliary and related colic
- related rhinitis
- abscess in throat
- conjunctivitis
- mild gas colic
- sidebone
- locked stifle
- mild colic
- lacrimal duct blocked
- severe viral enteritis
- lacrimal duct
- lame from galloping like mad fool
- x-ray front legs
- blood tests
- cut leg, near fore
- lame, near fore
- respiratory infection
- mild colic
- blood tests

And I promise you, that was only the first 12 months from when he was 8 years old to 9 years old. His complete veterinary record is a novel!
He is now 20 years old, and really fit and well. I think he got rid of all the nonsense and accumulated problems in the first couple of years, and with lots of loving care, has stayed really well.

I go through months of not riding, but being a nurse and devoted handmaiden - but this would not be right for everyone. My horses are firstly my companions and pets, and secondly I ride them if all goes well. I'm sure I'm going to be told that I am the total pessimist and shouldn't put you off tb's - and I don't mean to, as they are my favourite, most beloved breed of horse - but
I do believe they are not as strong as other breeds.

I have friends with warmblood crosses, warmbloods, local varieties, anglo arabs, etc. and they do seem to be sturdier horses than t.b's.

Whatever you decide, lots of luck !
Alexa

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 3, 1999 - 4:32 pm:

I think what is more important is:

1) horse history - what has it been used for, when was it started, how was it started, has it been in regular work recently ...

2) physical conformation

3) management practices - type of food, feeding schedule, turnout practices and pasturemates, type of work schedule, worming, shoeing, etc.

TBs as a breed are often started quite young, before joints are finished, they may have been started in a racing career, then someone may have tried to make them into a 'chaser, event horse or open jumper ...

Rather than say the breed has trouble, I would say how they are used and managed can creat problems.

My little TBx is a vet's nightmare - he only gets to visit twice a year for shots and tooth floating, :O)

But, she did have a couple of issues over 12 years ... a runny eye, bumped hock, jumped and kicked up by another mare wanting to be alpha, bug allergies, the possible navicular that seems to have gone away, a princess/pea mentality if something is not perfect, a sarcoid that was removed, slightly suspect hocks ... touch wood, she's pretty sturdy.

Of course, she wasn't started until age 4, never run hard and put up wet and has had thoughtful, researched care for 12 years.

Not bad as far as horse health goes. Cheers.

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 3, 1999 - 6:40 pm:

Thanks for all of your suggestions. Here is more information. I have owned the horse since March 1999 - so 8 months. As far as I know he was raced, the Jockey Club reports him in four races. Then he was used on and off as a lesson horse for three years. So I am assuming he's had some hard work. Physical conformation is OK. He's big in the shoulder and lacks in the tush, but I think this is more a muscle issue. However, I haven't been able to work on the butt, because of all of the other problems. That is why I'm losing confidence that he's going to be OK, I guess. I am just hoping not to make the same mistake twice.
Thanks, Liz.

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 3, 1999 - 7:07 pm:

Have you had a vet look at him since he is off up front?

Sometimes what appears lame is a side effect of the original cause ... a horse that is sore on his left hind may make his right foreleg off, I believe, trying to compensate.

It is possible, the original injury is still giving him some aches and pains.

I hope you are able to sort him out. If you wrap each leg with a different colored polo and video, you can check how he is moving in slo-mo, which make also help.

Let us know how he gets on.

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 3, 1999 - 10:03 pm:

Hi Liz,

I have a TB off the track, he is 5 now. He has a wonderful personality but, unfortunatly, is a wreck physically.

String halt, back problmes, and is weak in the back end. Very consistent with cross cantering, both directions. Vet, trainer, and chiroptractic bills have gotten the best of me!

He has since been retired to offical trail horse and is very happy walking my husband down the trails.

I can certainly relate to your dilema! Unfortunatly I am all out of suggestions, good luck!

Posted on Thursday, Nov 4, 1999 - 2:10 pm:

Hello
I think like Chris said there is alot to take into account why horses are having health problems. I think their past history and conformation are the biggest. My personal experiences with TB's has been good. I have owned 5 so far and one is thirty and still being ridden. He never raced but fox hunted for 15 years and was a school horse for 3 yrs before I bought him. None of my TB's had/have hoof problems or any other physical restricions or problems. Only 2 of them raced and it was when they were older (4 yrs) and fully matured. I had them all fully vetted out before purchasing. I take good care of them but they are expected to do there jobs. All but the 30 yr old compete succesfully in h/j and dressage.
You can probably tell that I am pro-TB but am always cautious when buying ANY horse.
Good luck.

Posted on Thursday, Nov 4, 1999 - 2:46 pm:

Hi
Thanks everyone for your suggestions. The thing is I did have my horse fully vetted (to the 9s) and drug tested. Nothing showed up.

A week later I discovered he had the heaves and its all been down hill from there. I think he does have some conformation problems which could be overcome, if consistent riding could be accomplished. It hasn't been in the last 8 months, due to the problems.

He was raced....and based on all the comments I've received that's probably a big part of the problem. I guess I can opt for a TB if he hasn't been raced, but how easy or difficult are those to come by??

I think I have come to the conclusion, after 8 consistently bad months, that he needs to live in someone's back yard. I think he's just not going to work out as a sport horse, Unfortunately, because he's very sweet.

But if I buy another horse, I would just like something that can hold up to the pressure of jumping 2X a week and showing 4X a year or so. I really don't think this horse has it in him.

Any more opinions would be helpful. Liz

PS I just realized that I spelled Hardiest wrong. OOPs

Posted on Thursday, Nov 4, 1999 - 5:30 pm:

Liz,

He could just be going through the "terrible 8's" and be pretty good/healthy after he is sorted out.

Things have a way of happening in series/groups and not on a sprinkled out average.

Before you give up on him, have a vet diagnose the front problem. What is his turnout like? My mare got a couple of abcesses early in her life due to the turnout out paddock's condition. If you can keep a horse on more solid footing without much mud and in smaller horse groups, it can help with the stone bruises that make abcesses.

Lameness that comes on suddenly and is acute is typcially an abcess. Twice a day soaks in hot water with Epsom salts can help draw it out.

As far as heaves, horses benefit from 24/7 turnout and wetted down hay to reduce the dust exposure. Someone on this site recommended supplementing with a mix of herbals called Cough Free and someone else reported it seemed to help for heaves. Vitamin C and/or selenium/E supplementation is also reputed to help.

A little management tweaking may make him useful for what you describe, or get him healthy enough to recoup some of your investment when you place him in his next home.

Cheers.

Posted on Thursday, Nov 4, 1999 - 5:46 pm:

Dear Chris:
Thanks for your suggestions, unfortunately I've tried all of them and they are not working. He's out 24/7, he's on herbs...and has been for months, he's off hay and eats a hay substitute. As soon as its warm out, he reacts. Believe me I have researched his problems like you wouldn't believe.
The problem is one minute he's healthy and the next he isn't. He's been to four vets, had chest x-rays and seen holistic health practitioners as well. He's on herbs, msm, garlic, and a new product called Gluta Syn, an antioxidant. He's also been on steriods on and off. I've also used ventipulman (a broncodialator). I am running out of money and patience. I really have tried everything...I think I have to move on. I just don't want to make the same mistake twice. Liz

Posted on Thursday, Nov 4, 1999 - 7:41 pm:

Liz,

I understand, now, with more information. Isn't it totally frustrating?

Sometimes the only luck we have is bad luck.

As far as picking a horse out to buy, it is always a gamble. I've seen wonderful horses in steady work that were ridden often by the purchaser as a student, then the student buys the horse and 6 weeks later some weird thing happens the horse is unridable - no one's fault, pure bad luck.

For jumpers, though, my bias would be a TB - I do like them after all these years. I hope you have good luck finding the horse of your dreams and find a good home for this fellow.

Cheers.

Posted on Friday, Nov 5, 1999 - 4:16 am:

Hello again,
I would say that you should not get a TB again. I know they are really good jumpers but, as you've seen, their legs don't stand up too well to constant hard work.

Although the main horse bred in SA is still a TB, due to the horse-racing industry, I notice show jumpers are veering away from TB's and going for warmbloods or warmblood crosses, now that some fine warmblood stallions have been imported.

Hanoverians are very popular, or Hanoverian/TB crosses, similarly Trakheners/Westphalian/pure or crosses, and some excellent Anglo-Arabs have been bred who are tall with good bone, and jump beautifully. We even have an Andalusian stallion, and a pure Spanish stallion [not sure what that is], but I guess that's more for dressage.

I'm sure you have a far greater variety of breeds in America, who would be stronger and sturdier than TB's.

I hope you will keep us in touch with what happens.

Alexa

Posted on Friday, Nov 5, 1999 - 6:47 am:

I read somewhere that alot of TBs have the worst feet in the world, with particularly thin soles which are proan to bruising and abcesses. Is this due to in-breeding?
On the subject of reusing TBs when they come off the track alot depends on why they came off in the first place. The wastage of beautiful, highly bred animals is terrifying and as several members are reporting they just go for dog meat. Those that are sound but not just quick enough can go on to lead 'normal' lives but usually need alot of retraining as they only get a basic breaking in for racing. Having been forced like hot-house plants their bones and tendons age prematurely. I think flat racers have more problems than the jump racers. Here in the UK alot of Irish TBs are used for jump racing. They are more sturdily built and resilient and make a better bet for someone looking to buy a horse for jumping or eventing.

Posted on Friday, Nov 5, 1999 - 8:58 am:

OK
I have to jump in here. Like I said earlier I have owned 5 TB's NONE have had feet problems or any other problems. Just regular vet care. I show them in h/j/d. They HAVE stood up to the rigors of training constantly. Before buying any horse (including an App. mare) I have the horses history, fully vetted and any other information about the horse that I can get my hands on. I try to stay away from the real fine boned TB's but I do have one and she is my most expensive horse and has won me the most money in the show ring. I bought her as a 3 yr old when she was bearly broke. (she didn't race) She is now almost 6 and has shown up and down the East coast VERY succesfully and with NO soundness or other health problems. One of my other Tb's I have had for 5yrs and he came off the track at 5 as a stud. He raced as 4 yr old. He has shown in the jumpers and dressage where the judges love him. Same for him, NO health issues.
As for the retraining of off the track TB's it has varied between the 2 that I have. They were barely broke. One was really tough and quick and the other we picked up right at the track brought her home and she's been a doll. I literally have to keep sqeezing her to keep her going. She is wonderful to the jumps. A good thing about TB's OTT is that they have seen a whole lot so going to a horse show or new places usually doesn't scare them.
I wouldn't focus too much on the breed, more on all the issues Chris brought up awhile ago. I am always real cautious buying any horse. I would consider having a pro check out any horse that you are interested in buying.
Good Luck!

Posted on Friday, Nov 5, 1999 - 10:29 am:

An addendum to "OTT" TBs -

In the past, I had a connection to a breeder of racehorses who was very tender hearted about his horses. The geldings that were done racing, or not speedy enough, came through my instructors hands.

Each horse, though needing training for our purposes, was a wonderful, obedient, sweet, willing animal. They were later placed in loving homes. I would not hesitate to take one from this source if I needed a horse.

Like children, it really does make a difference in how you nuture and raise the animal to maximize their god-given abilities.

If I had a horse with chronic hoof problems, I would look at my management practices - feeding, shoeing, turnout, etc. before condemning the breed.

Now, many race horse people believe a very low heal is important for speed ... and horses are reshod often because of using race plates and to hope the shoes stay on ... so the problem with hooves may not be due to inherit genetics, but how they are managed.

I've a friend with a TB that had very difficult hooves and was constantly losing shoes. She found a different farrier (after going though several) and it made all the difference - shoes were staying on for 6 weeks and the horse seemed to be much more comfortable, fewer ouchies, etc.

Rolex (highest level 3 day event in the US) maintains a web site. I'm sure somewhere there are lists of the horses competing and what breed they are. I would bet dollars to donuts that the vast majority of the horses competing are tbs, next being tbxs and a few warmbloods. Many of the wbs have lots of tb in them, so if you check the lines, a wb/tb cross could easily be 7/8 tb.

After being being a "student of the horse" for so many years, it continues to amaze me how small evironmental things can make enormous differences. And I have a real respect for their levels of tolerance as well as their forgiving natures. The more I learn, the less I know, :O) One more dichotomy of the horse.

Cheers.

Posted on Friday, Nov 5, 1999 - 10:39 am:

Thanks everyone!!!

Just so you all know. I live very close to the Hooved Animal Humane Society of America. They specialize in finding homes for horses and I get a
tax write-off for donating my horse. They are wonderful and they have rigorous requirements for people wanting to adopt. So, I know my horse will go to a good home, a really good home. So, I am relieved about that.

As far as breeds go, I tend to really like TBs because they are fast and athletic. I love going fast.

I've also met a few boarders at my barn who have TBs who weren't raced who've never had any problems either. I really think the flat racing gets them.

Like I said too, I had my horse vet checked, all the xrays and other tests as well. His legs are not really terrible, but the heaves/breathing problem is, and I have heard that TBs are prone to the heaves due to genetics. That , I think is my biggest fear, to have another asthmatic horse would just break me entirely.

I just want something sound and healthy. Thanks for all your suggestions again and I will let you all know what I purchase. Thanks, Liz.

Posted on Friday, Nov 5, 1999 - 1:28 pm:

Another addendum to OTT TB's [took a while to work that one out!]. If there were more tender-hearted racehorse breeders and trainers, there would be more sound TB's. Unfortunately, as the racehorse industry is all about money, there really aren't many of them, so TB's do get abused by being ridden hard from 2 years old, far too young, by being shoed incorrectly too often, by standing in for 23 hours a day with insufficient fibre, etc.etc.etc. Reared correctly, and looked after correctly, so their health and temperament is not affected, nothing can compare with them.

Alexa
New Member:
Erika

Posted on Sunday, Oct 13, 2002 - 10:54 pm:

Can you stand one more? The two best jumpers I have known have been American Saddlebreds(!!)
I know, you all think they are "poodles", but they were the original cavalry horse. Of course you wouldn't want a gaited show animal for jumping but the more natural three gaiteds are fab. They tuck their feet all the way to their ears, are nice and forward, and they seem to love to jump. Several of the ones I've known have been terrific field hunters, too. My mare can jump anything from a standstill and is always very brave to the jumps ( even though she tends to spook on the flat). Her ears lock on to the jump ahead, and I always know she's going to go.
If you find them to be too fine boned, they are also great crossed with morgans. Keeps the style but adds a bit more substance. They aren't the tallest horses in the ring but they make up for it with super ability!
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