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  Discussion on Smart horse vs Average trainer
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Posted on Tuesday, Nov 16, 1999 - 9:54 am:

My Morgan gelding is very smart. I am trying to train him and I feel very average, especially around him. I have had excellent results with 4 other horses that I have trained. But this one makes me feel hesitant about progressing further. I know without a doubt that I have no control with him. He goes along with the ground training and even taking me in saddle as long as it pleases him. If the situation ever became a crisis and a decision had to be made, my choice would not even be considered. He would take matters into his own hands and go from there. How can I get him to turn those thoughts around to putting his trust in me. Don't tell me I need to get some confidence, I know that. I need to know some basic steps or exersises or psycological thoughts that may have helped someone in the past. He is 4 yrs old. Thanks for any ideas. Jeanne

Posted on Tuesday, Nov 16, 1999 - 1:36 pm:

Hi Jeanne,

Do you mean to say that he only goes along with the ground trainig when he wants to? If that is the case then I would start there. A horse needs to stand, lead, lunge, etc., not just when they want to but also because you ask them too. Otherwise, you'll not have control when you really need it.

Morgans are smart horses with lots of self-confidence, opinions and energy. Always a challenge! Is there another trainer you could take him to who is more experienced with the difficult horses?

Gentle persistence is usually more effective then confrontations.

good luck

TeresaA

Posted on Tuesday, Nov 16, 1999 - 3:18 pm:

Well, Jeanne, I think you are one very lucky lady to have such a smart horse - and I think he is lucky too to have such an understanding human. You have to be halfway along the track because you are already sensing the problems that could arise with him. He is obviously a horse who will have to have a partnership with you, as it doesn't sound as if he will accept dominance.

I would suggest you read all the books available on the mind of the horse - Lucy Rees, Richard Maxwell, Ulrik Schramm, Dr. Marthe Kiley-Worthington - and many others now advertised. I like to read everything I can as one finds in each book perhaps only one phrase that just hits the nail on the head and solves one particular problem that has been baffling you.

If you know a really excellent trainer, it would be a good idea to go and have some lessons together - and I stress together - but don't let people bully you to make you bully him. I believe that with a really intelligent horse, you have to go slowly and gently and build up the relationship and prove to him that he can trust you. You have to get through to him as well that he has to prove to you that you can trust him. He is very young still, so you have lots of time.

To do anything, a horse or anyone needs to be motivated. If he has a really close relationship with you, he will be motivated to please you and will therefore learn quickly. Your praise and encouragement will reinforce the training, and increase the trust.

Go well, and I wish you all success.

-Alexa-

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 17, 1999 - 6:57 pm:

Thank you both for your ideas. Teresa, he will work well on his ground lessons, but I can't help but feel that he is enjoying it so it is not a true test or measure. But I enjoy it too. He does lead, load and lunge nicely and with manners. Alexa, I like the idea of reading everything I can on the thinking going on behind those beautiful big brown eyes. Lots of wheels turning. But I am going to get professional help. I have two people who have trained and competed. They have never been paid to help someone like me, but they like me, so this is exactly what we are going to do. And do it together with the horse like a team.

Posted on Thursday, Nov 18, 1999 - 6:31 am:

Hi Jeanne. You are very lucky to have an intelligent horse, they are generally far more rewarding in the end and you will learn so much about horses, more than you would from a push-button one. My mare is so sharp she could cut herself and it keeps ME alert having to stay one step ahead of her.
Here's a funny story about a lovely old horse I know ( it isn't meant to make you feel like you are going to have the same problem, don't worry!). Jason has been a loveable rogue all his life. You can do anything with him in the stable and he is a well schooled ride. However Jason has more brains than all his riders put together. He is quite happy to do as you ask but repeat performances are OUT. I once demonstrated flying changes through a figure 8 to a class. Jason did it perfectly and got lots of praise for it from me. When I went to do it again, he DrOpped like a stone at the crossover point and just lay there. This happened twice more until I had got the message. We moved on to something else and he was fine. He is the most exasperating horse and really tests all his riders, although he is never nasty and knows just how far to go. At around 30 years old I don't think he is likely to change now. Everyone loves and respects him and he knows it!

Posted on Thursday, Nov 18, 1999 - 10:12 pm:

I have read all of the forums and everyone seems to have so many good ideas. I was wondering if anyone could give me an idea on how to handle a certain situation. I have an 8 month old QH filly. She is quite bright and knows how to take advantage of a situation. So far I have taught her to lead, tie, load into a trailer, and we are now learning to hobble. The first time I put the hobbles on her she reacted like I thought she would (she reared a little, pulled her legs apart trying to get loose and finally stopped, looked at the hobbles and decided that she would just stand there.) The problem I have is that when she sees me coming to the barn to feed she will knicker at me and run up to see me (this I like) and when I come close she will rear up in the air and then quickly turn and do little bucks (this I don't like). I don't think that she is doing this out of nastiness but rather being playful (I have seen her do this to her mama out in the pasture.) However, even if this gesture is a hello of sorts, I know that she could still hurt me with those hooves. How do I get her to stop rearing up in the air when she sees me? She doesn't do this when she is on a lead. In fact, she is a regular lady. Any suggestions will be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

Posted on Friday, Nov 19, 1999 - 11:30 am:

My foal used to do something similar - again playful. When I'd go to leave her and her mamma in the pasture, she'd run up behind me and rear, tapping me on the shoulder.

At the time, I decided to carry a crop with a flapper on the end ... when she did this I turned and gave her a smart tap on her exposed belly and said no - that was the last time it happened and it did not hurt our relationship.

Today, I'd probably try a little more behavior modification - when a foal is misbehaving, I'd remove the object of desire. In this case, I'd try saying no, turn, leave and take the food with me. When she was quiet, I'd return and feed if she remained on the ground.

Another approach is to make yourself "big" and noisey and wave her off when she does her thing. Only allow her close to you for food, treats, pets when she is behaving.

Although her intent is playful, the idea is to discourage it as a full grown horse that does this can be rather difficult!

You can also try "clicker training." This a reward based training technique that marks and rewards correct behavior. In the case of this, the foal would be clicked/treat for coming to you, which may distract her from rearing, kicking. You could also click/treat when all four feet are on the ground, teach her to follow a target, etc. It is neat stuff and a fun way to interact with a young horse. For more information, check this web site: https://www.crisny.org/users/kurlanda

Hope this gives you some ideas.

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 23, 2001 - 1:43 pm:

Okay guys,I have read as much as possible and I'm so confused !! I'm looking for things like what you start teaching first, second and so on. As a novice, I need somewhere to start. Also how long of work periods and how many times a day.
I have two geldings, one is spirited but loves any contact with me. He follows me everywhere. The other is shyer and skittish, but is better than he was.
They wear halters and I can walk them (in corral) and most of the time they follow command but not as much as I want them. It is winter here and the snow is pretty deep, so I haven't even thought about lounging ( which I tried in the Fall) The shy horse freaked and the other fellow would not leave my side.
They need good manner training and ground rules,
can anyone help me?
I have read Lyons books and the horses just aren't like his.
I really would appreciate someone taking the time to guide me.
Oh, what about this clicker training and do I need to acquired a headstall and bit now?
Thank You
Katie

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 24, 2001 - 11:56 am:

What you do and how long you do it depends on their ages and backgrounds. Horses are more alike than they are different--although all are individuals. It may take some experimentation to find the "best" method. Tell us more about the horses and your particular situation.

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 24, 2001 - 9:52 pm:

katie, you said you've read many books, but here is one more. (:0 sorrry)
Training the young horse-Anthony Crossley.
I have found it extremely helpful even with my older mare. It helps you understand as a "trainer" how important it is for you to be confident and for you to be accurate. It sets up things like lungeing and how to start, or where you should be with the progress of your horse in two weeks time if you follow the work programs, etc. It gives you a two year plan (LOL). I am sure its helped me in my quest for the perfect horse.

But. and a big BUT, nothing is better than getting a good trainer to help you figure it all out. Sometimes just watching the trainer doing something as simple as bridling or hosing them down, or proper lungeing techniques is immeasurable. i had my horse for over six years before I called on my first trainer for my new horse. Experience and intuition are your guides but a trainer can help the process along much faster. they can help you build your Confidence which is absolutely necessary to carry out unforeseen tasks like what happens when your skittish guy spooks in the road or spirited guy runs off with you one day?

But Eva is right, can't help with any specifics until you post more information. I have oodles of books some good, some boring, some so confusing.
and how to find a good trainer is a post in and of itself. YIKES! I remember being in your shoes not so long ago. But I found good trainers and good support groups to help.
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