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Member:
Quatro

Posted on Monday, Oct 31, 2005 - 12:30 pm:

Hi all! It has been 5 years since we brought Levi onto the farm with my 2 other geldings, he was only 4 months old. We are trying out a new horse for my husband. He is a mild mannered 9 year old gelding. We have him separated in a round pen, but the other horses can come up to the pen. The 2 older ones, said hello and went on their merry old way. Levi, my spoiled rotten brat, is charging at the pen, ears pinned, reaching over and trying to bite the new guy. The new horse does not act aggressive at all, and turns away from him, walks to the center and eats his hay. Is this normal, and will he eventually work things out, or is he too spoiled rotten to adjust to a new kid on the block? Also, when I am standing by the two of them, the new horse comes up to me, only to have Levi bar his teeth, make a weird noise, and try to bite. The first time he did this I smacked him on the neck and told him to knock it off, just instinct, i guess, but should I ignore this or act like herd boss, or what. We really like the new guy and are just trying him out for a week. I won't let everyone together for a while, if we keep him, but need to know if Levi will eventually accept a new horse. He is no longer pre-occupied with him, and has wandered off to join up with the others. What advice do you all have for getting everyone together some day, if we keep him. I do have several pastures I can gate off. My biggest concern is Levi, he is very big, and although I love him dearly, frankly he is being a "butthead" to the new guy!
thanks
suz
Member:
Hwood

Posted on Monday, Oct 31, 2005 - 1:19 pm:

Susan,
By the way your new guy is acting, I would say that he is a very secure kinda guy, and if I were Levi, I'd watch my back ;) . . . Levi may be in for a big surprise (pride goeth before a fall), and I wouldn't worry too much.

I always figured that two weeks getting to know each other over the fence was a good start for most horses, but it seems that whenever you add a new horse, the herd has to adjust itself, and the dynamics can change subtly or radically . . . sometimes, horses act as if they have been great friends forever, and after a 1/2 hour of peace, all hell breaks loose . . . but they seem to work it out as long as there is plenty of room for the underdog to get away from his attackers.

I have found that the horses that posture the most are often the most insecure and the first to back down. Accidents can happen with any combination of horses in all kinds of situations. Introducing a horse that belongs to someone else is more of a worry liability-wise.

If your fences are good, you have lots of space, and you are going to be around for the first few introductions, I think that's the best you can do. Of course, you can always keep the horses separate if you have any premonition that one of them will get hurt.

Is Levi the high man on the totem pole in your own herd?
Member:
Quatro

Posted on Monday, Oct 31, 2005 - 2:26 pm:

Thanks Holly for responding. Levi is the youngest, and the old QH Dusty 20+ has been ruling the roost around here. But Levi is very bossy, doesn't get out anyones way, including me sometimes ( I know I created this monster, we are working on him daily) He only plays with the middle gelding, taunting him, but respects when Cody gets mad. It only takes an ear pinning from the old guy and he moves to the next hay pile. Levi is definately like a big dog, and is jealous of the attention I (his mom) is paying the new fella! I fed him some yummy hay, next to the pen of the new guy and brushed on Levi. Should I correct him for any aggression, if I am in the direct area, or leave it alone. I mean the actually snapping his teeth at the guy in the pen?
thanks
suz
Member:
Denise43

Posted on Tuesday, Nov 1, 2005 - 7:50 am:

Susan, for many years we had horses comin' and a goin'. We had a few horses like Levi and most were "all bark and no bite." They were fierce over the fence, probably because they thought they could get away with it without getting their bums kicked but once in the same paddock they would tuck tail easily. lol. My suspicion is that the new horse will put Levi in his place rather quickly - the important thing like Holly says is that there is plenty of room. Regarding correcting him, I don't think it would hurt but not sure it will help either - you sort of have to let these guys duke it out on their own unless you plan to live in the paddock with them 24/7.;-) Denise
Member:
Quatro

Posted on Tuesday, Nov 1, 2005 - 9:33 am:

Hi All, Day 3 - I let Levi out this morning, and after much praying to the universe, he ran up to the round pen,ears forward, neck to neck with the new guy, no biting, striking - and the other horse did not turn away. How incredibly interesting these beasts are :-)
Now we have to pass the vet check today, keeping our fingers and toes crossed
thanks
sue
Member:
Brandi

Posted on Thursday, Nov 3, 2005 - 12:36 am:

Susan,
Glad to hear things seem on the right track. As for Levi's aggression when you are around, consider your situation and see if you think it would be acceptable to Dusty (the boss, right?) if Levi snapped his teeth at the new horse when Dusty was between the 2 of them? I doubt it, I have NEVER seen my horses make that mistake with our herd leader. Think of yourself as ultimate herd boss to keep yourself safe. My horses are never allowed to "go after" each other in my presence, not if it puts me in danger, without some consequences. It doesn't mean you have to smack them, but you have to find some way to quickly and absolutely remind them that you are the boss (a smack might not be the perfect response, but we all know that it is often the swiftest and most effective in the moment--it's usually doled out before most of us can even think about another option).
I just wanted you to consider your safety in that situation.
Good luck on the vet check and the introductions.
Member:
Quatro

Posted on Thursday, Nov 3, 2005 - 8:41 pm:

Thanks Brandi, the vet check came out great! He did not do a super intense radiographs or the like, but he did flexion tests on all four legs, checked the hooves with hoof tester, checked his mouth, lungs heart etc. And said he was in great shape. We had him give him a 5 way vaccination, and he gave it to him in his rump, he never even twitched, which the vet said was a great thing for vet care. We rode him yesterday and today, the only problem is he walks like he is going to a fire, very brisk, but he goes where tom tells him, and whoas better with the new bit. Levi hung out with him most of the day. Levi bit him in the butt across the fence and the new guy ( tom wants to call him Clyde)gave him a swift kick. Although he is still running at the fence and pinning ears on occassion, they are now doing the neck to neck, nose to nose thing with no problems. I just sing happily to him when he walks towards the other horse, tell him what a good boy he is, as soon as he hears my happy voice his ears go up, and tension fades. I will worry about the actual face to face meetings though. How long should I let them fence acquaint before pasture meeting????
I think we are going to keep the new guy.
thanks
suz
Member:
Quatro

Posted on Sunday, Nov 13, 2005 - 1:48 pm:

Hi All, just one quick question? We have decided to keep Clyde, and so he is ours. After a 1 1/2 weeks of rotating and socializing, everyone is living happily ever after in the pasture. I was soo worried about Levi, but now they are like best buddies, hanging out together, almost inseparable. Here is my selfish, little brat question? Levi lived for my presence before. When I came into the pasture he just would hang out with me, following me everywhere. Well you guessed it, he now has a "NEW BEST FRIEND"! I of course am acting like a little left out spoiled kid. Will the novelty eventually wear off, and Levi will go back to my best bud again? I am so happy they have made friends, I just hope that I don't lose that close bond with Levi. Any thoughts from anyone????
thanks
suz
Member:
Sswiley

Posted on Sunday, Nov 13, 2005 - 11:23 pm:

Susan,
I will put my bets on the person who feeds him !!
The stomach always sets the priorities.
Actually I am waiting to see if my 6 yr old mare (raised her myself), will still follow me everywhere now that she has seriously bonded to our new pony. She follows that pony around with her humble nose at the pony's flanks. When the pony drinks-she drinks, when to pony licks the salt block-she licks the salt block. She looks like a baby whale swimming beside the mama whale except she is so much bigger than the pony!
But seriously when you are the one to feed them and take them on new adventures they should look to you for all the answers.
Member:
Sarahb47

Posted on Monday, Nov 14, 2005 - 12:11 am:

Sorry, Susan, but a socially well-adjusted horse SHOULD prefer other-horse companionship to human companionship, unless the other horses are bullying him. Same-species bonding, especially among herd animals, is very important. We humans can provide most of what a horse needs, most of the time, but ultimately he's a horse, not a human, and he needs what we cannot give -- constant, subtle, reassuring communication, 24/7, that he's a horse and can find his place in horse society.

Try not to feel jealous. You've obviously done a fine job of bringing him into the herd. You and he will continue to communicate well, because you've forged a strong bond, but if he continued to prefer you over a compatible horse companion, I'd be worried about his social adjustment.

I adopted a thoroughbred off the track about four years ago, a lovely bay gelding who bonded to me very quickly through some necessary surgery and rehabilitation. But it wasn't "love" -- it was emotional dependence. When he'd healed from the surgery and able to join a small herd in a pasture, he was so poorly socialized and so fearful of other horses that he would pace the fence line waiting for me to appear. He'd come running to the gate and scream bloody murder every time he saw my car appear in the driveway. He'd only settle down when I haltered him and led him from the pasture back to his stall for feeding, grooming or training. This horse had spent so much of his racetrack life relying on humans for EVERYTHING -- safety, companionship, reassurance, control -- that he had no idea how to behave around other horses that weren't under the close control of humans, and they made him nervous. Was I flattered, that my horse was so thrilled to see me he'd race to the gate and scream for my company? Not really. That wasn't a relaxed, well-adjusted horse.

The day he finally started ignoring me, began hanging out with a gentle older mare, and sauntered to the gate only when I brought him a carrot -- I figured that was a great step in his socialization. He'd begun to turn back into a horse. not surprisingly, his self-confidence improved on many other levels as well, and his training progressed much more quickly after that.

Don't let your human emotions get in the way of your horse's needs!
Member:
Quatro

Posted on Monday, Nov 14, 2005 - 10:20 am:

It has been fun watching to 2 guys playing and running together. My other 2 horses are older, so I am sure he is happy to have a younger horse to romp with. He still comes when I call him, of course, Clyde in tow, so he is teaching Clyde to come as well.
One other observation I have made, and am concerned with. Clyde who lived in a pasture of 20 horses, is very herd bound. I took him off the farm in the trailer to ride with a friend. He pawed the whole ride. When I got to the park, no one was there yet. When I opened his window he was body slamming the trailer, sticking his head out the window, trying to leap through. As soon as the other horse arrived. I took him off the trailer and he in time settled right down and was his mellow self. Is there anything that I can do to reassure him. He had worked up quite the sweat. I may be using him for the mounted search and rescue unit, so he will probably have to travel to locations alone. He loves the trailer, and beats me onto it. He was fine when we picked him up to bring him home. Do you think he was concerned that he was being shipped off again, or what??
Any tips on helping with this?
thanks
suz
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Nov 15, 2005 - 9:23 am:

Your question of, "Is there anything that I can do to reassure him" suggests you may be contributing to the problem. The single most important thing you can do Susan is to ignore the bad behavior.

Efforts to reassure him only reinforce the behavior while punishing the behavior is likely to turn him against the whole experience. Providing good experiences in the trailer will help and rewarding good behavior in the trailer is the best plan. You need to devise a plan where his adventures in the trailer slowly mold his confidence. If he will stand quietly in the trailer at home try putting him in it and give him occasional treats, only when he is quiet and behaving. Slowly move the trailer further away always occasionally rewarding good behavior while ignoring bad behavior.
DrO
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