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  Discussion on Monty roberts
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Posted on Tuesday, Jan 4, 2000 - 8:58 pm:

has anyone been to one of his classes? read his book and enjoyed it; also read some of the anti-monty reports; anybody have comments of him?

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 5, 2000 - 3:07 am:

HI Cherry, I saw Monty in Dec. in Las Vegas, he was at the Excaliper putting on a 2 & 1/2 clinic. He had 3 horses the day I was there a 2yr. old never had a saddle on, a 3yr. cold back horse who bucked when saddled and when the rider first got on and an older brood mare who would rush into the trailer and run you over backing out. He was letting us know his web site several times repeating it. When I got home I looked it up and read what someone had wrote about the clinic they had went to see and there was 3 different horses with the same problems. He might use horses that have these problems to sell his halter, lead lines, bucking bridle all tho he said you could make the bridle with a clothes line. In fact I do not know if he even sells this item. He was selling everything else and sitting signing his books and answering written questions from the audience which his helpers read to him while he was signing his books and taking pictures while he was still talking and signing you could stand behind him and have his helper take your picture with him. He certainly did not waste any time and it was very impersonal but this is just my observation he is running a business and his wife Pat also comes out and talks about her bronzes. They are also for sale.
I enjoyed the clinic, I also enjoyed his first book and just received his book Shy Boy for Christmas. I liked his join up and I liked the bucking bridle which someone called a war bridle. I did not like all the name DrOpping he did in his clinic.
Judy

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 5, 2000 - 4:12 am:

hi Cherry

I have seen Monty three times now, from the years he has toured the UK. Each time I have been his show has got progressively non-personalised and more marketing orientated.

His work is still the same - some would say the show is more professional. I haven't been to any similar 'whisperer's' clinics, so I don't know what they are like.

The systems he uses are still the same. The first time I saw him there were no 'gadgets' used, and the horses demonstrated were simply untouched - he just backed them within an hour.

Subsequent clinics showed the 'be-nice' halter, to demonstrate leading and loading, and a kind of what we would call 'comanche twitch' system to prevent bucking.

The be-nice halter still requires the user to have a degree of physical strength, especially with a large horse - I haven't seen him demonstrate it with a 17hh horse!

A lot of the basic round pen work he demonstrates I had used prior to seeing the show - without knowing exactly what I was doing and why it worked.

If you haven't seen a join-up session, it is to be recommended - every time I witness one it makes me get the prickles, it's so amazing. Somehow videos don't catch the wonder and atmosphere - guess they just don't sometimes.

The shows are worth it, if you can take the associated marketing with a pinch of salt. They sound even more selling orientated over in the US than here!

I have heard people rubbish him, but he has a lot of useful experience and is better witnessed first hand.

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 5, 2000 - 9:06 am:

When he started to appear in the news media about his "special" ways with breaking horses, I was very interested in his methods, but he is not the one the started it.

My personal favorite that I would highly recommend to see is a Buck Brannaman clinic. I watched him take a "badly" trained horse that would walk all over it's rider, totally scared of anything around it, and within 2 days it was calm, happy, willing to do whatever he asked. There were no gadgets involved, just timing and knowing what and when to do it.

I have a listing where all his clinics will be for the year 2000 if you're interested. I went to his clinic in Michigan and it cost me $25 per day to audit, ask questions, etc. It was well worth it. People can pay him to put their horse in one of their clinics also (I think it's like $300 or $400 for 3 days). He does restarts, colt breaking, and horsemanship. It is truly an art to watch him.

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 5, 2000 - 11:50 am:

I was very interested in Monty Roberts and his ways that he claimed to develop, when I read his book and was about halfway through It I realized that some of his statements about horse behavior was nearly direct quotes from earlier published Equine Behavioralists (sp?). Then I read a point by point report on claims he made in the book, not a flattering report on the truth of the claims. The straw that broke the cammels back was when he claimed to be the one who developed "slant load" trailers and did all the research on them. That was it, I had enough. Well, I was so disgusted that I returned the book to the liabrary with a request that I be reclassified as "Fiction".

Buck Brannaman, although I have never attended a clenic personally, I have seen some of his tecniques demonstrated and found them to be sound and safe methods for the most part. I have attended a John Lyons Symposium and was very impressed, His methods were logical, safe, and simple in concept. I found him persoanble at the clenic, spending every break with the attendees talking shop and not talking "down" to us. Now there were plenty of vendors at the clenic hawking their wares, but at no time, even when asked did he "push" a product, dispite the endorsements in the mags. Whats more... no "name DrOpping", Aaggh I hate that! The only equipment that he recomends is a soft snaffel.

I feel the best bet is to not "buy into" a trainer just because he is chargeing for his knowledge. Be sceptial, ask questions, decide for yourself if you feel safe and comfortable useing the tecniques demonstrated. If you don't want to use anything demonstrated, then you have still learned alot, you have learned what you don't want to do, and that is equally as valuable.

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 5, 2000 - 1:47 pm:

When I read his first book I thought that it was a fascinating read, but on reflection seemed like "too much", and have subsequently read an article in one of the horse magazines that refuted or called into doubt a number of the stories in his book. I have a high degree of scepticism about many of the events he describes. I have seen him in person once, and he is certainly a practiced showman.

However, as a new horse owner, I have found the join-up technique he describes in the back of the book to be very useful with my horse. He is a 7 yearold Thoroughbred who seems to still be a kid in the head, and can get quite rambunctious if not exercised religously (and unfortunately little annoyances like my day job sometimes interfere). Even with exercise, he sometimes seems to want to "challenge" me - I guess checking to see if I still deserve his obedience. The join-up technique seems very effective at burning off some energy, calming him (and me) down, and reminding him who is supposed to be "in charge". He is very obedient afterwords, and neither of us get clobbered in the process. He occasionally takes an arbitrary dislike to some "standard" daily event like saddling or picking up his feet or whatever, and a quick join-up in the round pen restores order for quite some time.

Since reading Monty's method, I have seen other trainers, famous and not, who describe similar techniques, similar horse responses, with similar results. So I don't know if Monty "discovered" this technique first, simultaneously discovered it on his own, or borrowed it consciously/unconciously, but it works for me.

So my evaluation on him is: I learned something useful about horses, and maintain a healthy scepticsm about everything else.

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 5, 2000 - 2:26 pm:

It worries me a little that this "join-up in the round pen" is used by practitioners [not the inventors] as a punishment. Send them round and round and round for an hour or more, until they "give in". I am rather dubious about the whole thing.

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 5, 2000 - 4:45 pm:

Interesting observation. I guess this is bit off the Monty subject, and may deserve a separate discussion in the Training forums, but since we are here: I don't think of the join-up technique as "punishment", at least no more than other types of training or correction. (Another difference in perception? I recall you seemed to be horrified that anyone tied a horse - something that is seen here as not only desirable, but one sign of a well-mannered horse). I would be interested to hear what others think, but I would guess the "Administration" would recommend we start a new discussion on that.

For one thing, it does not take "an hour or more" (and I agree that repeatedly running a horse to exhaustion would not be a good idea!) It usually doesn't take more than 5 to 10 minutes (yes I timed it.) As soon as he gives the signs that we are ready to communicate in a more calm manner, we stop, he walks over, there's lots of praise and petting, and then we go on to other things.

Certainly it is not an answer for everything, and like any other technique, use it judiciously. One would not want to overdo it, or use it when a horse is lame, etc etc, but the "inventor", advocates it as a gentle technique for communicating with any horse, feral or domestic, in a manner it understands. An end goal of the communication is understanding the role of the horse and the role of the human, with respect on both parts. And in any form of riding I have seen, the human rider leads - gently, but definitely leads.

Alexa, I note you are quick to defend the horse against any perceived assault, and this is a noble characteristic. However, these posts are best when they are short (a goal that eludes me!) and to the point; and therefore often the whole story is not presented, only the points pertinent to the subject at hand. So when reading a post, particularly on this site, bear in mind the possibility that the writer is not necessarily hellbent on destroying his or her own horse.

I do recommend you look into the technique, whether by Mr. Roberts or others, sort out the hype and rubbish from the nuggets, and see what you think.

Cheers.

elb

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 5, 2000 - 4:58 pm:

He is about to do some work here in Australia, Jan and Feb I think. He was asking around for very particular types of problem horses, especially completely!!! unhandled horses. Or specific problems.

The vet and I said we should send my mare to him as a surpise, If he could get her under controll the vet would have to be amazed :-)

Not that the mare is hard to train she just cannot remember much, the more she progresses one way the more she regresses in others.

Why doesn't he take any nasty/problem horse.

Though I do remember Monty years ago spending 3-4 days on getting one horse into the starting gates, he said he almost gave up. So he does have some determination.

I have watched my mare go through the phases of join up, I was not chasing her just blocking the open gate. When she licked her lips she was thirsty, join up does work but not even the inventors understand the reasons they just do what works without understanding why. Then the imitators struggle to grasp even that.

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 5, 2000 - 5:07 pm:

Hi Cherry,I would go to see Ray Hunt, Harry Whitney & Buck Brannaman before going to see Monty again. These men I believe learned from Ray Hunt who learned from Tom Dorrance.(sp?)I have seen all except Tom and I came away with goosebumps. Harry Whitney came and put on a clinic in my home town. Harry was like your good friend when you asked a question. A real people person. I paid the same price as I did seeing Monty $25.00 a day to audit with these men. OH, just to have a small amount of their knowledge. I have always learned something from each of them inculding Monty.

Posted on Thursday, Jan 6, 2000 - 4:04 am:

Interesting point Darren. He invited horses to be sent for him to work on over here in the UK. I think it is Kelly Marks (trained and approved by Monty) who 'vets' the horses to see if they will be OK for him to do.

A friend of mine had a mare who was particularly nasty to do most things with - catch, lead etc. and would no way take a bridle etc. Being seasoned Monty watchers we thought this would be a challenge, and as we were at the end of our tethers with her we rang them up.

We had to get the mare to them for them to assess (this was about 50 miles away), which was no mean feat.

The conclusion to this visit was that the mare was far too dangerous to use as a demonstration horse, and she may 'go through' the round pen in panic (portable models are used here in the UK for demonstrations) and therefore be a liability.

They did, however offer to take the mare down to their facility and have her board to see if they could do anything with her there - not cheap. She did not go away and came home instead. I haven't kept in touch with the lady who owned her, so I don't know what happened to her.

Incidentally for all those of you who think it's ridicuous to buy something like this it was gifted as a 'problem' horse and the lady who received her was an experienced horsewoman.

I digress, in answer to your question, they have to approve horses to use on grounds of safety, apparently.

Posted on Thursday, Jan 6, 2000 - 3:54 pm:

I've mentioned Mark Rashid here before. I rather like his RP techniques. He just teaches and works with horses. He isn't trying to sell me a thing - a magic rope, halter, saddle, etc. He isn't trying to wear the horse out. He lets the horse be a horse, but establishes a nice bridge of communication.

Through his patience, persistence, consistency and excellent understanding of the horse, he does a great job.

He doesn't put others down. He is very good with people as well as horses.

His books are a great read - stories with great training examples. "Considering the Horse" and "A Good Horse is Never a Bad Color."

You'll find out in his books that Mark mentored under "the old man" who learned his techniques from Indians. I don't think Monty is invented a different way to horsemanship. But he has made it into a product that can be sold. John Lyons, too.

Another thing about Mark, his ego fits in his cowboy hat, GRIN.

I approach all these guys as - "what can I learn here that I can put in my bag of tricks and pull out when I need it?" The more tools in my bag, the better I can respond to my horse and any others I work with.

I read Monty's book and did enjoy it. However, he does seem to self-aggrandize himself a lot.

To Monty's credit, his techniques have had a lot publicity and J. Q. Public seems to realize there is a better way for starting and dealing with horses, so that is good.

Cheers.

Posted on Friday, Jan 7, 2000 - 12:35 pm:

It seems to me that all of the recognized trainers that use the "new" round pen techniques are generally pursueing the same goal. Yes, there is a lot of merchandising, but as we all know it's not inexpensive to keep horse related operations going in business. Please don't pass off a trainers technique because he or she may not be as talented in dealing with the public as they are with horses. For all the "Monty" bashing I have read I still have not been shaken from my belief that he has and will continue to have the best interests of the horses at heart.

Posted on Friday, Jan 7, 2000 - 6:26 pm:

Lisa my Monty/Parelli/etc bashing is not aimed at his methods more at his publicity.

I have seen a number of the people showing their skills and methods, but you can see in the horse a wariness and a separation between man and horse.

It is good that their techniques don't invovle any of the old style horse abuse.

But there are others out there that do more and are seen less. I saw a gentleman from Australia's northern territory who started from scratch with his training methods. Being out there means he would not have seen any of the current crop of trainers.

He put on a demonstration following one of the Parelli style people and it was amazing. You could see his horses were relaxed and happy to be where ever he was. He was riding dressage and cutting styles bareback and bridleless, sliding halts and flying changes any time. If the horse didn't do it perfect enough for him he would appologise and do it again without forcing the horse.

To put things in perspective he was controlling 3 horse in a 30m 80m areana with just his voice. None of his horse even flinched when he moved his hands suddenly. One of the horses even went to sleep in the corner where he told it to stay while he was working the others, he just looked around from 50m and told that particular horse to stand up again.

I don't mind Monty and his ilk for what they do but I think people should look at what they do and ask is there anything more that they should be doing. This guy from N.T. shows that yes even they have a lot to learn.

Even if I get to 1/10th what this guy can do I will be happy and so will my horses. His first rule of training is that the horse must know its name, not as a command but just a name. I like that on so many levels, he is treating each one as an individual, he recognises that they can understand the difference between a name and a command, that they can work as individuals even when together in a group.

Posted on Sunday, Jan 9, 2000 - 2:08 pm:

hi melissa; thanks for your input...i so much agree with what you said; and all of the other input here on the subject has been very helpful...I also have been away from horses for quite a while and am now delving into any information and learning techniques as possible, i have just joined this forum, and have already gotten so much from it, it is so nice to have others to chat with on all diversified subjects! Cherry

Posted on Tuesday, Sep 18, 2001 - 2:41 pm:

Test by admin

Posted on Tuesday, Sep 18, 2001 - 7:46 pm:

there are several people at the barn where i board who have been members of the horse world here in Phoenix for a very long time, and i will tell you that they all swear up and down that he is a fake. one woman worked with him one time when he was here for a clinic and watched him work with and "pre" selected "unschooled" horses for his clinic, 3 days prior to it. However, I did watch his "load up" video, and subsequently purchased his halter which i used for a few days before deciding i prefered the chain over the nose!

marci

Posted on Wednesday, Sep 19, 2001 - 6:19 am:

Hello Marci,
I have seen Monty work. He is not a fake he is a horseman and a effective trainer. Though I am not a disciple of his, I have used some of his techniques effectively.
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Sep 19, 2001 - 3:10 pm:

This could be only a rumor, until I see it myself (this isn't something you would see in the news or papers). I can't confirm, but he is allegedly being sued by a few people who used his services and consequently were not happy (for whatever reasons), I don't know the details but his farm and management of the horses were included. I heard about this from a Quarterhorse list, and if anyone really has the low down if this is just rumor or not, please let me know.

But, I have heard more ill will than good about him. Makes you wonder.

jojo

Posted on Wednesday, Sep 19, 2001 - 3:43 pm:

Why can't we take the good of what he says ...
1) Horses are intelligent animals
2) it is possible to communicate with Horses
3) Violence and abuse are not necessary
4) Horses that behave badly do so for a reason... and that reason is not maliciousness

And not worry about the rest?

Posted on Thursday, Sep 20, 2001 - 7:51 am:

Actually, the reports of Monty getting sued by a number of people are/were more than rumor. If you do a web-search on him, you can actually access some of the legal docs & transcripts of some of the cases - at least you could when the article outlining Monty's increasing legal problems appeared in "Horse & Rider" magazine last year. The charges ranged from fraud to serious animal abuse - & even one case of "horse theft", which involved his taking a horse left with him for "training" on an exhausting desert ride (the "Shy Boy" mustang thing) without the owner's knowledge or permission.

Some of the cases - arguably - do not appear to exactly be Mr. Roberts' fault - i.e. horses returned as "trained" to owners who then were seriously injured by the "trained" mounts. I mean, it should be common knowledge that no animal can be absolutely trusted to perform with the owner in the same way as it did with the trainer. However, I believe the gist of these cases were that Mr. Roberts' had claimed the animals to be "absolutely cured" of their vices & the owners' took him at his famous word.

While I do agree with Cheryl that Monty has a lot of good IDEAS re: working with horses (I do have his autobiographical book - fraudulent or not!), whether or not he practices ALL that he preaches is anyone's guess. I have also attended one of his seminars/exhibitions, & while certainly impressive to watch, the extremely high level of commercialism & product-pushing outshone everything else the event had to offer. I believe that if you place &/or flaunt yourself in a public position without maintaining certain standards "behind the scenes", you deserve every "hot seat" you're forced to sit in.

Jumping off my soap box for now,
Bonnie

Posted on Thursday, Sep 20, 2001 - 8:09 am:

The last Monty display I went to (2 years ago now), I too was dissappointed in the commercialism surrounding the man and his techniques....

I first went to see him in his early days, before he launched his books and videos, and found it much more watchable without the surrounding 'glitz'.

Many of the ideas/practices can be found throughout the world, being used by competent horsemen/women, who have no knowledge of Monty Roberts. If people take the time to watch their horses - even when mucking out etc. they learn much about horse behaivour.

So, yes it's unfortunate that commercialism has overtaken the underlying message of understanding your horse. As Bonita says, being in the public eye can attract unwanted attention/actions, and in this modern age, legal cases seem more the norm. rather than the exception.....

Posted on Thursday, Sep 20, 2001 - 10:55 am:

Just to speak to the 'training issue', I've seen many people who, most often inadvertently, cause the 'bad' behavior of their horse. Sending a horse to a trainer is not a bad idea but if the originating cause is not dealt with as well then the behavior will likely recur. I've seen horse that will drag their owners around by the lead line and/or lunge line, but not put a hoof wrong when someone else is doing it. It won't matter how many times someone else retrains the horse, frequently the owner/rider needs the training more. Suing a trainer who abuses my horse is okay with me, suing him/her for what is my own fault is not.


I'm off my soap box now.

Teresa

Posted on Monday, Sep 24, 2001 - 2:36 pm:

Just a personal story. One of my horsey pals sent his wonderful 17hh classic grey Irish draft to a Monty demonstration here in Ireland about 5-6 years ago. Monty broke him there and then - it took about 50 minutes. Afterwards the horse was brought on by an experienced horsewoman, and about three years ago he moved to our local yard where he was taught to bank and drain properly for hunting.

This horse has belonged to my pal since a 2 y-o. He is a superb hunter with beautiful dressage movement. I will not say he is the perfect horse (strong enough to walk through field boundaries and take a good spin if he meets a big truck, can take a hell of a pull out hunting) but I cannot think of a horse that more people have tried to buy than this one...

I am sure there is truth in everyone's comments in this discussion. Just wanted to report that this horse was no way a plant (though not a troublesome type of animal) and that his owner, who at the time was quite an inexperienced rider, has had great pleasure out of the horse over the years.

All the best

Imogen
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