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  Discussion on Violent Head Tossing
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New Member:
Muffi

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 11, 2006 - 1:03 pm:

My 13 year old Arab Gelding is a Herd Bound Animal - so let me start the discussion this way.
When I try to ride him out on his own - leaving his buddy (I have two horses) in the arena he Violently tosses his head up and down - accompaning it with a Spin and some times a slight Rear. Yesterday we connected and I have quite a shiner now to show for it.
He was on a Hackamore - not sure if that was the problem or not. I will try again today with a Happy bit Snaffle on him. see if it is as bad.
He doesn't do it in the round pen when lunging, and seems to calm considerably when accompanied by his buddy on the trail. I believe it to be a behavior problem, Teeth are floated fine recently, no back problems, nothing physical (that I can see of course always open to look at other things so I can learn more)
I do believe from what I read here today and what I know of this horse that is is behavoral. He is ticked off and scared to go out alone with me on the same trails that we ride every week with both horses together (just fine - no head toss then)
I tried doing a "bonk" on the poll with my fist but I don't want to hurt him so I am actually pretty gentle there. I also tried 'running the tar out of him" in the round pen first. same thing but not as bad head tosses but this time no fast spins in to the Cactus.
Any suggestions any one? I am afraid of more black eyes or something worse - but he needs to learn to go out alone too.
Member:
Green007

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 11, 2006 - 1:19 pm:

If you ride english try a standing or running martingale. It won't solve all your problems but you may avoid the black eye!
Member:
Hwood

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 11, 2006 - 3:47 pm:

Michelle,

If you can focus the horse on YOU and not on his fears, I think that is the key.

When the head gets moving, get the horse moving on a small circle . . . with his nose held to the side by your knee. Forward, forward, forward on a circle . . . with you in control of the direction, is what you want . . . and then allow him to straighten out . . . and if the agitation starts again, get him working again . .That way you are in control, and he will get the idea that if he starts to throw fits, he's gonna have to work . . . not just be allowed to continue down the trail. I've had similar issues with a couple of horses who reared and flew backwards when they protested going out alone or past scary things . . . It cured them, and I stayed safe.
Member:
Gailking

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 11, 2006 - 4:48 pm:

My two arabs are well behaved when I ride them together but I am going through a similar time with my younger arab horse alone. Last week I rode him alone and I was relieved to make it home safely after he took off at an uncontrolled gallop down the middle of a wet road. He was frenzied and spooking at everything and wanting to run even though I was on very familiar ground. I am much more aware of his emotional state now after he lost it two years ago and bucked straight up twice in a row (never bucked before). I try to control his speed but not to the point that he is totally frustrated. My trainer suggested I tuck my buns and suck my belly button back and hold him with my thighs like I do riding him bareback. That did seem to slow him down after he calmed down. Yesterday I took him out alone again on same trails. He was very mellow and actually walked. I don't use a bit so I stopped at any grass I saw to let him eat which calmed him down and I talked softly when he was being a good boy. After we arrived at my trainer's I went out with her on a new filly. He was a little hot, but not bad. We parted for me to go home and he was very upset. Again I praised him when he was calm and let him eat more grass. Finally he continued pretty calmly with only one spook all the way home. I just think you have to be patient and ride through the hassles. My older horse used to throw his head like yours and I have worked with him by scolding (yelling) at him and after several years he doesn't do that anymore. He also used to put his head down and throw it from side to side at a canter pulling me off balance. Now I know him so well that I yell instantly if this happens and he stops. I realize this post isn't very helpful to you but the bottom line is that I am much more sensitive to when there is going to be a problem and try to put my horse into a calmer situation. As you probably know, arabs can't seem to stop without tossing their heads! I would hesitate to use a tie down because that could cause a really panic reaction. A martingale could help. But mostly building confidence in your horse and rewarding good behavior will win out in the end. You could wear a face guard helmet which sounds silly but would prevent injury. My trainer got her nose smashed a few weeks ago by her own horse when she spooked. My older horse loves to go out alone with Mom but gets frantic when left behind when I take the younger one out for a ride. The other training aid that is very successful is using treats. What if you take some horse cookies and reward him when he is going smoothly and calmly. Try a short ride out and return and give a treat so that there is positive reinforcement along with praising him. Then make the rides longer and/or treat him along the way. Treats really work for all kinds of behavior modification as does "good boy". Try to only ride him alone when you are not rushed and are feeling good. I hope you stay safe and have success as I think all horses need to learn how to feel confident on their own. Good Luck. Gail
Member:
Scooter

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 11, 2006 - 6:36 pm:

Hi Michelle, My gelding went thru that wonderful herd bound phase, and tossing his head was one of the last habits to leave. What Hollywood said eventually cured him of balking and threatning to rear. The head tossing finally stopped when he got cracked with the reins or crop on the neck (every single head toss).also a firm NO. Once in awhile he thinks about it and a firm no at this point stops it. Good luck
Member:
Dsibley

Posted on Thursday, Jan 12, 2006 - 7:03 am:

My 3-year-old gelding (the one with ulcers???) was extremely fearful when I bought him. He became very attached to my mare, and had a real attitude when I tried to ride him out alone. It took patience, but what worked for me/him was to do very short rides out, then come back. Each ride was longer and longer until he understood that he would get to come back again. I think the key was to catch him when he was being good, and take that opportunity to reward him by turning around, or starting a slow circle back home. All of a sudden he 'got it' and this has not been an issue any more. On to the next challenge....!!
Member:
Cpacer

Posted on Thursday, Jan 12, 2006 - 11:16 am:

Michelle, does he act the same way if you walk him on the trail by hand?
New Member:
Muffi

Posted on Thursday, Jan 12, 2006 - 5:27 pm:

WOW - thanks - I will try it all
but first, tonight I am going to try a different bridle on him with NO Noseband. That could of been the issue with the Hack it was pretty thick.
Funny thing - I can ride him in a halter with reins clipped to the side rings, no tossing, nothing.
As I thought and thought about what happened, it has to be the bridle/hack nose band that ticked him off. As a Green rider - it took 24 hours to go back and think about it. (yea I am new at this stuff) SO I thought like a hores - why would I toss my head like that - I am a nice horse normally, something must of been really bothering me, Separation anxiety being one large factor (but I like to get out and run around - I've done it before), but more than that I think this thing on my face hurts or bothers me.
So stay tuned - I am going to try it again tonight with out a noseband with a Snaffle bit. I'll let you all know how it works out.
thanks to all of you (I love this web site!!!)
Member:
Hwood

Posted on Thursday, Jan 12, 2006 - 5:32 pm:

Michelle . . . I love the way you think like a horse . . . LOL . . . :-)
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Friday, Jan 13, 2006 - 12:52 am:

You took the words out of my mouth, Holly!

Good thinking. I'll be waiting to see if their was any difference.
Member:
Dtranch

Posted on Friday, Jan 13, 2006 - 8:17 am:

Michelle .... I use the basic techniques Holly outlined. I have found that a little hard work can fix a lot of those behavioural problems, and the circle technique outlined by Holly is excellent. One other thing I incorporate, is if the horse is herd bound, or barn sour, or buddy sour, I try to make this an area of hard work. I will work near the herd or barn, and then ride off a few yards and rest. Repeat a few times, each time riding a little further away. Each time he mis behaves, I will work my way back to where the horse seems to be comfortable, and then work again. The horse seems to learn that the path of least resistance, is to just go on down the trail with you. Obvioulsy though, if you have health or equipment problems, these must be remedied first. This technique has worked with many of these problems on many different horses virtually without fail.
DT
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Friday, Jan 13, 2006 - 11:20 am:

Great thread!

Question for you Dennis and Holly, I'd love to try your ideas because I'm sure my horse will be giving me the same problems soon (we'll be going off property soon :-)

I have a 10 minute ride on pavement to get to a large arena...would you change this technique at all due to footing?

Thank you and sorry to hijack :-)
Member:
Hwood

Posted on Monday, Jan 16, 2006 - 12:48 am:

In answer to your question about footing, Aileen . . .
There definitely is more of a chance for the horse to slip on pavement . . . I have had it happen, but horses don't LIKE to fall, and will do everything they can to stay on their feet . . . My suggestion is to stay focused yourself, and keep the horse moving, and if he slips, just keep focused and contine what you are doing . . . When the horse WALKS, reward by releasing pressure and moving straight ahead, if the horse jigs, put him FORWARD in a tight circle, until he WALKS . . . and loosen the reins immediately. One of the things that will help both of you is to keep straight up in your saddle, shoulders back when you ask for circle . . . and pay attention to whether or not your gives you what you are asking . . . Even if he slides a bit, don't let up until you get what you want.

Do you have Old Macs that you can use on the pavement for the first few times? I'm thinking they might give better traction if your horse is really nutsy . . . I don't have them, and have only had a horse slip once on the pavement, but he recovered nicely and didn't go down . . . and I think it helped him pay attention better.
Member:
Dtranch

Posted on Monday, Jan 16, 2006 - 9:04 am:

Aileen ... I have never had a problem with working like this on pavement. It is your call with what you feel safe with, but I would give it a shot. If you are unsure, dismount. A 10 minute ride is only a 15 minute walk, right. If you're like me, the exercise sure won't hurt... You can still work your horse the same way from the ground, tight circles and lots of forward, back, and right to left if he gives you the same problems on the lead. I know a lot of "old school" cowboys will tell you never get off the horse, if you do the horse wins. I totally disagree. If your goal is a calmer, better behaved horse that will walk off when asked, it is not important what method is used to get there. Focus on the goal, and not the method. When I am training outside horses, I am often confronted with a horse that does not want to cross a creek, or jump a log on the trail. I have spent hours in the saddle trying to force the horse to perform and am usually successful to some degree. I also will get off and work from the lead and accomplish the same results, usually in less time and with the horse calmer when finished. The important thing is, that after the ground lessons, I am able to remount, and perform the desired movement from the saddle. Remember, the goal is the ending result, not the starting point. Just last week, I was out on the trail with a green horse and an associate on another green horse we were training. Sure enough, when we got to the first creek crossing, neither horse wanted to cross. After a few attempts at letting the horse decide to cross, I dismounted and started with my ground work. My associate on the other hand insisted on forcing his horse to cross, quoting all the "old school" mantra. You got to be the leader, you got to be tough. Well, at any rate, after 5 minutes of ground work, I was able to mount and cross the creek several times in each direction. I then crossed the creek and went on down the trail while the other horse was still rearing, and spinning, and fighting my associate. As I got about 100 yards on down the trail, his horse finally jumped the creek in a spurt of energy, and hit the ground bucking and spinning. When my associate got up and dusted himsef off, I calmy reminded him that he could have gotten off when I did, instead of being thrown off later. His response was .." I got across the creek didn't I"
The bottom line is to focus on the goal. We both crossed the creek, but one horse was calm and willing to cross several times, the other horse was wired and excited and ready to fight. A long story and probably off point, but if you need to lead instead of ride on the pavement, the same goal can be accomplished. The key is that you and the horse are safe and calm. Try it from the saddle, if you don't feel safe, try it from the ground ... both methods can work.
DT
New Member:
Muffi

Posted on Monday, Jan 16, 2006 - 10:57 am:

SUCCESS!!! Wonder of wonder, Miracle of Miracle. By little arab terrorist is a contributing member of society again! It was the hardware. I put the happy bit in his mouth - he looked at me with a mild "hmmm" in his eyes, or maybe it was more an "Ahhh, no nose band" but either way one or two very slight tosses when I led him to the park gate (right next to the arena / barn where we live). I mounted him and let him take the lead, No Tossing at all. I remembered what Holly and Diane said. Let him feel good about it. We walked - at his pace - about 100 yards to the west he wanted to turn around and I let him. Back to the gate - SLOWLY - no jiggy allowed. He tried to the Jiggy stuff but I pulled back gently Sitting way back in the saddle (english) and he responded. when we got to the gate I turned around and this time I brought him about 50 feet beyond where he wanted to turn around. I continued to do this in all geographic directions for about 30 minutes - each time going a little further. He lowered his head started to nod in a relaxed horsey manner and I knew my little terrorist had turned over a new leaf and was back to being a good ol boy.
I have since tossed that Hackamore in the Garbage. No more hacks on his tender snout for him. This week I am going to go further and further and do the full 3 mile Exercise loop with him and his Apple flavored Happy bit - very well named - I think he actually smiles when I use it!!!
Lesson learned - LISTEN TO WHAT YOUR HORSE TELLS YOU. He told me he didn't like that thing but I was being a butt head and didn't listen. I probably deserved a black eye for being so thick headed myself.
Member:
Sjeys

Posted on Monday, Jan 16, 2006 - 11:19 am:

I got a kick out of this post. :-) I had the opposite issue a very, very strong TB whom I used a very, very mild rubber snaffle on. He head tossed, but after popping him in the mouth a couple of times stopped that behavior, (I usually hate doing stuff like that, but admit it did work) but he was still very, very strong and "worried" about the bit. We're talking you would put about as much pressure on the reins as holding a quarter on your fingertip and he would want to pick up speed. I never entertained the idea of a stronger bit because I could just see him reacting to more mouth pressure. After 7 years of working this horse at walk, trot, walk, trot, canter for 45 minutes to get him listening and thinking about behaving, I put a soft jumping hackamore on him with a big fluffy nose roll and its like a night and day difference. He listens, doesn't pull, doesn't head toss, and I can use the lightest touch imaginable to control him which I really like. I'm not a kicker or a puller and he was just so exhausting before.

My sympathy to you as I could kick myself for taking seven years to discover "another way." in this case a jumping hackamore. Good for you and your horse! My horses are hoping by the time I am 80 that I get it...
Member:
Sswiley

Posted on Monday, Jan 16, 2006 - 11:30 am:

Interesting experience at a clinic the other day. Clinician was John Turner, H/J guy. There was a cute 6 yr old that showed up with a neck stretcher on. The rider(she was a very good rider) said she had trouble with head flipping. He was a very talented, fairly spunky guy and he was jumping with his head quite high and sucked in and a little on the quick side. After about 1/3 of the way through the clinic, the clinician asked the rider to try a change, they unhooked the reins from the bit and hooked then around the noseband on each side. He had her test it out by doing some bending to each side and some slow transitions. Next thing we knew they were jumping courses like this. The horse was calm, happy, slow and for the first time, using his neck. I am sure they are not going to keep it that way but they will certainly look into his teeth some more and possibly try a mild hackamore.
Member:
Dtranch

Posted on Monday, Jan 16, 2006 - 11:36 am:

Muffy .... Great news and a good reminder to us all. First and foremost ... rule out health and equipment before jumping to behaviour and training.
DT
Member:
Alden

Posted on Monday, Jan 16, 2006 - 5:55 pm:

Muffi, glad you found the solution.

I went back and re-read and I don't see any mention to a mechanical hackamore. We could have found the problem a whole lot faster if we'd known. I can't think of a worse piece of horse equipment in common use.

Good day,
Alden
Member:
Ajudson1

Posted on Monday, Jan 16, 2006 - 6:58 pm:

Besides the circles Holly mentioned, sometimes it works to do a lot of backing, provided they horse isn't into rearing. In other words, "you want to go home?" o.k., we are going in reverse! You want to jig going home?? Circle, circle, back, back. Rest. Now forward at a walk...walk being the key word here.

Our almost perfect Arab mare, now deceased, had a habit of walking faster and faster going home. Pretty soon she would be doing a little jig, crept up on a person. Not that it was rough, it just wasn't a walk anymore. So we'd halt, back, back, stand. Procede. Had to hold the reins just perfect, really soft, and a little "jiggling" with the little fingers. And a sharp "NO" would work also...until I'd start daydreaming and she'd be at it again....darn smart horse, no day dreaming allowed on her.

As I said, this depends on the horse, level of his training and riders experience. Some horses will react by getting too light in the front and you have to have timing when to start the circles.

Another tip I've found with the head tossing Arabs is a really thick fuzzy nose band. They have to keep their head down in order to see over it! And yes, it's cushy on their noses too.
Member:
Dsibley

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 17, 2006 - 7:18 am:

I was riding a leased horse in the pasture alone. We came to the top of the hill behind the barn, and the others were going in to eat. He was bound and determined that he was going to eat with them! We spent a half hour walking down that hill in little circles. Unfortunately, I was bareback, so it was not very pretty...

Bottom line is that they really make us think 'outside the box', don't they?
Member:
Gailking

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 17, 2006 - 3:23 pm:

Glad your change of bit worked for you Muffi. I also have a "happy mouth" bit but what I ride in now I like the best of all. It is somewhat hard to find because no one knows what to call it but at one tack store they call it a jumping caveson. It is about 1/2 inch padded leather on the nose with an adjustable closure strap. It has two small rings where you can attach your own headstall and then two larger rings on either side to attach the reins. My trainer found it and uses it on all her babies and most of the other horses she works with. Mine both like it and since I ride English when using a saddle the rein placement is more comfortable for me. In the tack store they don't keep these with the rest of the Eng. or Western cavesons so you have to find somebody knowledgable to find it. I found one that looked like it in a catalogue once but never ordered it to be sure. Best of all it only costs $30 and it adjusts to fit any size horse. I can't tell if this is the same piece of equipment that Susan mentioned but it may be.
One comment to add to the suggestion to back your horse. My trainer never teaches a greenie to back because if they start only backing up, there is very little you can do. She had a Lippizan once that backed himself all over the mountain trails crashing into things and would not go forward! I can see where that could be a big problem.
Hope you enjoy your rides. We have had 32 inches of rain in four weeks so I haven't been able to ride much. Gail
New Member:
Tuckern

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 18, 2006 - 6:09 pm:

Hi All,

Just a comment to what was said about the mechanical hackamore.

ANY piece of equipment we use on a horse today can hurt them, and is only as bad as the "operator" makes it.

Yes, it's true that a hackamore will put a horse's head in a vice and cause behavor problems, but only if it is used wrong.

And bits can cause as much damage, if not more, than a hackamore if you don't know how to use them or don't understand what they are doing to a horse's mouth.

I guess ultimately, it's all a learning curve. You've gotta find what works for you, learn as much as you can about it, and then roll with it. I have one horse that cannot stand any bit in her mouth, even a "happy mouth" bit, but goes very well in a hackamore. Then, the other horse I have could care less what I do with her face or put in her mouth, she's happy all the time.

Anyway, just my 2 cents.

Nicole
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