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  Discussion on Transition from English to Western
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Member:
Bethyg2

Posted on Friday, Jan 27, 2006 - 3:04 pm:

Hi all- I am trying to transition my paint gelding (anywhere from 9 to 13 yrs old) from his Myler D ring snaffle with a no pinch roller that I use with his English bridle to a more severe bit to go with his new western headstall. He is very spunky and I'd like just a little more stopping power to get his attention, especially since we trail ride. (Right now that's pretty much all we do) The Myler bit seems very mild-too mild especially when headed back to the barn. He neck reins wonderfully so I think he has had plenty of experience going western- he often gets nervous and bolts if I'm not careful when entering arenas and goes a little nuts if I keep him standing there- we are working on it and he is getting much better. But I'd like to try the easiest western bit-beyond a snaffle- at first to make the transition very gradual. I do have calm hands (so I've been told) but no knowledge whatsoever of western bits. I know there have been books written on the subject, but I really don't need a severe or corrective bit. I get the feeling my horse would be oK in just about anything. }I kind of like to look cool out there on the trail (hey you can admit stuff like that on the internet!!)so I like the look of those swept back shanks (silver?) and cool slobber straps, but I always just end up standing in front of them all at the tack store, perplexed. Can anyone suggest a cool looking western bit that is not too severe and would be a good transition from the English myler D snaffle with the no pinch roller? My friend suggested a Tom thumb but, what is that? I know there is a shank.My daughter's western quarter pony uses a shank, broken bit with a curb chain and it seems to be just right- not too severe. I was just wondering what the most logical transition would be. Most appreciative of any advice!
Member:
Dtranch

Posted on Friday, Jan 27, 2006 - 3:34 pm:

Beth ... I use a reining bit on most of my horses and they work great. They are not snaffles because they have shanks, but they have a broken mouth piece and most of mine have copper rollers. You can get them as pretty as you like. I like the reining bits because they are not hard on the mouth, but I get better stopping and control because of the chin strap and shanks. You don't need a severe port in the mouth to get control ... most is training anyway, and a harsh bit gets in the way of good training. Just make sure you get the straps adjusted correctly. I am all western so know little about the english comparison.In my opinion, avoid the Tom Thumb because they look harmless, but can be very severe if used incorrectly.
DT
Member:
Bethyg2

Posted on Friday, Jan 27, 2006 - 4:32 pm:

Thanks Dennis- I feel like I know more already. Those are the bits, I think, that I have had my eye on for awhile. Some of them have lots of "bling!" But I didn't want to bling myself into a rodeo if he didn't take kindly to the new bit.
Thanks. Beth
Member:
Alden

Posted on Friday, Jan 27, 2006 - 6:37 pm:

Beth,

I think you're taking the wrong approach, a curb bit should be used to refine the control established using a snaffle bit. A Tom Thumb type bit is very severe when used with both reins. The problem with a broken mouth shank bit is it collapses causing a 'nut cracker' effect on the jaw. Try it on your arm and see.

Stopping comes from the hind end, stopping is best taught with a snaffle or bosal. When your horse is ready for a curb bit start with a low ratio (shank to cheek ratio) low port bit. A roller may help calm him if he has a busy mouth, I use one on a couple horses that can be on the hot side.

You may have to try a couple different bits to find the one your horse is most comfortable with, bits are very personal, one bit won't work with all horses.

Good day,
Alden
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Friday, Jan 27, 2006 - 7:14 pm:

Good advice, Alden.

Beth -Those fancy, long shanked bits you see in Western show classes, are used on horses that neck rein, have very light mouths, and are very well trained. They are supposed to be used with a very relaxed rein, which you seldom pull back on. One rein or the other is lifted up slightly and laid on the horses neck, and again, both reins lifted up to stop, as the rider sits back a bit in the saddle. They are never, or at least should never be, used with two hands. The rider cues the horse more with body, legs and seat than the reins.

If you have trouble stopping your horse, you should spend some time doing some ground work with him, then work him in the arena, if at all possible,before you get him out on the trails. You can get very pretty, simple bits if you look. If you really want a lot of "Bling" check out www.stonedcowgirls.com
Member:
Srobert

Posted on Friday, Jan 27, 2006 - 8:30 pm:

I now use the Brenda Imus Comfort Bit on all my horses and recommend them to everyone I know. It was originally designed for gaited horses, but many many people use them on their non-gaited horses as well. The mouthpiece is shaped to fit around a horses tongue and are really quite marvelous. You can attach the reins so they are either a direct pull or at the end of the shanks. We even use one when riding saddleseat (using two sets of reins)
Anyone I know who has switched has never gone back to another bit. My horses willingly take the bit and are calm and happy during riding. Check it out at www.gaitsofgold.com. It's worth thinking about!
Member:
Bethyg2

Posted on Friday, Jan 27, 2006 - 9:01 pm:

Thanks to all, good advice. But, I'm a bit (ha) confused, as the snaffle I have my horse in now should pretty much have the same effect as the broken mouth shanked bit, at least inside the mouth. I would think that a smaller size shank wouldn't be that different, except to lend itself to the lighter hands of the western pleasure style. Maybe I'm wrong in that thinking. My horse is very used to having the contact with his mouth with the English snaffle bit, so I would just like a little more control with less contact, if that makes sense. This horse is very calm on the trails, doesn't fuss about taking the bit, but sometimes gets a little hot. So far so good in the snaffle, but I just think he'd do better in a curb. Oh, re: Alden's discussion of the broken mouth bit action- I was always taught that an unbroken, or straight bit of any kind, is actually more severe. ???
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Friday, Jan 27, 2006 - 9:34 pm:

Beth, it depends on the rest of the bit, length of the shanks and the part from bit to where the bridle connects (forget what it's called) as to how severe the bit is. A broken snaffle, which I use a lot, can pinch the tongue, and I think the action of the straight bits can hurt the bars of the mouth. Bits with a spade can also hurt the roof of the horse's mouth. The longer shanks can make a broken snaffle more severe in it's action. If, however, you can use double reins on the broken snaffle with the longer shank, one set attached at the bit, and the other attached at the end of the shank, you can normally just use the bit set of reins, basically as you use your snaffle now, and then use the shank set as "back up" when you need more control. You can also use the snaffle you are using now and just attach a leather curb strap to have a little more control. I still think if you are worried about your horse's behaviour out on the trail, some ground work and arena work, or schooling work on the trail, is good to do.

Shari - I have one of those bit which I use with one of our stallions sometimes. I had no idea what it was called. Just found it in a tack store and thought it looked useful. I do like it.(normally, he works great in a snaffle, but when he's feeling a little studdy, I like the Imus Comfort Bit.
Member:
Leilani

Posted on Saturday, Jan 28, 2006 - 12:00 am:

Great advice. I still have friends who insist on using the Tom Thumb or similar because they need it to stop their horses. I have seen all of their horses run right off even with those bits.

I am currently working with my 4yo mare who has 60 days of foundation. I use a simple loose-ring snaffle and a whole lot of my body and brain. We have our good days and we have our not so good days (according to me not her).

A good book that I would recommend to everyone is "True Horsemanship Through Feel" by the late, beloved Bill Dorrance. Lose your watch, gain patience and make the change in yourself - first.

Not everyone will agree. Leilani
Member:
Dsibley

Posted on Saturday, Jan 28, 2006 - 8:53 am:

Beth, what about using the same Mylar bit only with shanks? Those are three-piece snaffles with a copper roller. I use the d-ring when we work in the arena, or with my English saddle, but use the shank on the trail for a little more 'whoa'. They are designed to avoid that 'nutcracker' effect that the Tom Thumb has, and are bent so the horse can swallow easier...good for sneaking treats on the trail!
The shanks don't have a lot of bling, but my horses all seem to take those well and listen if there's an emergency.
Member:
Bethyg2

Posted on Saturday, Jan 28, 2006 - 2:03 pm:

I am grateful for the advice. I think I will go out today and look for the Mylar bit with short shanks, like the one I have now but just with shanks. My horse could of course use a bit more work in the arena but lately I'm a weekend rider so he is always fresh when I get on him. I used to have an exercise rider 3x per week but she moved away and boy was that expensive- don't want to start up again but may have to. He is turned out pretty much all the time but there is no substitute for road, as the cowboys say. A bit will not change that. I just want to bring out the western pleasure potential this horse has. He learned to neck rein somewhere- he will do it whenever I ask him. So, I am off to find a mylar bit with the roller and a small shank- will probably have to look on the internet. I'll save the bling for the saddle! But I did enjoy that website, Sara! I'm going to check out the Brenda Imus bit too. So glad to have this site and its riders to run my ideas by!
Member:
Alden

Posted on Saturday, Jan 28, 2006 - 3:22 pm:

It is true that a snaffle will pinch a little if you pull on both reins at once. The difference is with shanks you do more damage.

If a horse is running away with a snaffle then that horse needs more ground work. Get the neck loose laterally to the right and left. It is nearly impossible for a horse to run away with it's nose touching your foot.

I can't say enough about ground work. Here's a great example I experienced this summer. I became the owner of a 12 yro Russian Arab stallion. This horse hadn't been ridden until I step on him this summer, but he has had ground work for the last 11 years. My friend used him to demonstrate ground exercises, but never got around to riding him.

My point is when I stepped up on him the third time this summer, we went down the county road. No jigging, going too fast, no barn sour (just the opposite, I had trouble getting him to go home), he's not worried about where the other horses are, etc, etc.

Even I was surprised how well this horse was setup for riding by using ground work. 11 years is extreme but the basics were done in the first year, the rest was just refinements.

Step off your horse and establish, as nearly perfect as you can get, stop, walk, trot, canter in both direction using both voice and body cues. Then go back to riding, I think you'll be pleasantly surprised.

Good day,
Alden
Member:
Maggienm

Posted on Saturday, Jan 28, 2006 - 8:44 pm:

By definition the snaffle is a direct action bit, the reins are not connected to a shank. The mouthpiece may be jointed or solid.

A stronger bit may only temporarily solve your problem. When a horse responds to a harsher bit he has learned how much he can get away with before he has to listen.
I agree with how valuable groundwork is. Many people accept poor responses from their horse on the ground. Raise the bar. If you ask him to step away from you, do expect he moves promptly and with only slight pressure.

It is just as important to re-educate the riders hands as it is to re-educate the horse.
Be clear on what you are asking the horse to do, sometimes a rider will pull on the reins, as if they are asking for a halt but are satisfied if the horse responds with a yield or pause. Then this same rider is surprised that the horse doesn't come to a complete stop and hold it with the same rein cue.
With a horse that is anxious to return to the barn try using circles to control his speed, (it may take enough to make you dizzy the first couple of times but good training takes time to establish)and avoid riding in a beeline home. Ask him to step here, close to there, leg yield, increase the pace within the gait, the point is to keep him busy.
The hard work pays off with a soft mouthed horse that responds calmly and quickly and that you love to ride.
Happy riding
Member:
Dtranch

Posted on Monday, Jan 30, 2006 - 9:07 am:

The reining bit I recommended is much the same as the Brenda Imus bit. I agree with all on the ground work and training. Good ground work will almost always keep these other problems from becoming problems in the first place. As someone mentioned, western riding is very much leg and seat, ideally with very loose rein staying out of the mouth as much as possible.
DT
Member:
Ajudson1

Posted on Monday, Jan 30, 2006 - 7:34 pm:

Beth,

If you are used to a Myler and he is too, perhaps try going to something like the ported barrel with hooks. ( I don't know "English" but the hooks part means a curb chain goes on it, which I struggle with as everything is too long for my little mare) MB33 in the Dover Catalog. I use this on my Arab mare who needs a little more than a snaffle. I think ideally you want to progress in small steps here. Don't go buy anything shanked and assume he will accept the leverage and curb chain. If he is spunky like you say, you may create more of a problem than solve one.

Everyone's advice above is fantastic as usual. I would also suggest when you do introduce the new bit, lunging with light contact on the bit, or ground driving is a must before you mount up!!

And doing lots and lots of stops with one rein, pulling the head to your knee, will put "whoa" in him better than any bit you can put in his mouth. And he will look cool because his head will be low and relaxed.
Member:
Leilani

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 31, 2006 - 12:24 am:

Good advice Angie; I can't imagine riding without my horses understanding a one rein stop. Disengaging the hind quarters stops the engine. Leilani
Member:
Hwood

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 31, 2006 - 3:14 pm:

Beth, I am going to send you a personal e-mail with an attachment. Some time ago, Terri, from this site, gave us a link to Mark Rashid's article on "The Trouble with Tom Thumb." I tried to access the article, but the link wasn't working as their site is undergoing rehab ;) . . . but Wendy Rashid sent the article to me as an attachment. If anyone else is interested in reading it, you may contact me at my home e-mail listed in my profile, and I will be happy to pass it on.
Member:
Hwood

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 1, 2006 - 7:53 am:

Beth, I tried to send the article, but it returned to me as "delayed."
Member:
Alden

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 1, 2006 - 8:52 am:

Holly,

I think this is a link to the article.

https://www.todayshorse.com/Articles/TroublewithTomThumb.htm

Mark does a great job of explaining the problems with this bit.

Good day,
Alden
Member:
Hwood

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 1, 2006 - 9:32 am:

Thanks, Alden. That's the same article that Wendy Rashid sent . . . I think they will have it back on their www.markrashid.com site in the articles archive section after they get the kinks out of web-designing.
Member:
Cpacer

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 1, 2006 - 10:10 am:

I can attest to the tom thumb being horrible! My horse was in one before I got him and when I test rode him, and he was in obvious annoyance with it. Once I brought him home and put him in a comfy snaffle his head came down, his mouth closed, and he's become so much more sensitive than I ever could have imagined.
Member:
Dtranch

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 1, 2006 - 10:30 am:

Alden and others:
I agree on the action of the broken bit with shanks. The reining bit I use does not break in the since that it will cause the pinching effect, It will pivot from within allowing some degree of one sided contact if you direct rein but no wedging effect. Also, I only transition to this bit after the horse neck reins cleanly and consistently in the full cheek snaffle. The final bit I use for western is a medium port shank bit ... and nothing more severe. It is virtually identical to the bit Rashid uses, except mine have copper or sweet iron mouth pieces. These are the only three bits I allow on my place. I approach most all problems as either physical, or training ... not more severe equipment. And as always ground work, ground work, and ground work.
DT
Member:
Alden

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 1, 2006 - 12:00 pm:

Yes Dennis I've used the bit you describe(but don't own one),it works quite well, and isn't anything like a Tom Thumb bit. The one I've used also has rein attachments at the mouth piece (like a Dee rind snaffle) and on the shanks. I could switch the rein position or if you're talented enough to handle two sets of reins you can attach to both points.

I do have one that has a solid mouth piece that has two rein attachment points, the mouth piece and the shanks, and it works very well also. It probably has a little less snaffle feel for the horse than the one you describe.

I also will ride with a rope halter when starting in a curb bit and can use it much like a bosal to help the horse. Or do like the English riders and stick both a snaffle and a curb bit in there. But again one has to be talented enough to working two sets of reins (I have enough with just one).

But as Mark Rashid says in his article it is very possible to have a horse working very light, and even have them neck reining, in a snaffle. Then moving straight to a mild curb isn't difficult at all for most horses.

Good day,
Alden
Member:
Hwood

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 1, 2006 - 12:28 pm:

Pelham bits (come with both broken and solid mouthpieces; medium length to short shanks) and Kimberwickes (like a D-ring with slots in the D for snaffle or curb reins; VERY short shanked when used as a curb) are other bits that can double as both snaffle and/or curb. They often come with curb chains attached, but you can substitute leather straps if you like. Use a different thickness rein on the snaffle than on the curb to help distinguish by "feel." In polo, which often uses pelhams, all four reins are held in one hand, each separated by a finger . . . and I don't see how the pressures of the different bits can be distinguised by the horses . . . seems like just a lot of pulling and crunching unless the horses have been really trained well to move off of seat and leg . . . in which case, why not use just a snaffle? but many horses are just hauled around . . . mouths open, heads up, and landing on the forehand with jerking, bouncing stops.
Member:
Bethyg2

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 1, 2006 - 1:06 pm:

Wow- Thanks Holly and everyone, I checked out the Mark Rashid site and if it weren't for work, kids, and horses, I'd be on a plane to his clinic already! I need to take some lessons- never had a western lesson in my life. After all this I have decided to keep that good old snaffle bit, maybe exchange it for a pretty silver tooled one if I can find it. But my horse really does keep his head in the right spot most of the time, and the rest of the time I'm not sure a bit would change anything. I was out there yesterday lunging him and he clearly needs more work respecting my commands. Once he gets going he is pretty good, but sometimes I have to follow him with the whip just to get him to move out into a trot. He is extremely good with trail distractions such as I have in my neighborhood -chain saws, atvs, etc. But I fear that his intermittent bad behavior is caused by my intermittent riding combined with the spirit God gave him. I guess no bit will change that! I am convinced a horse has to be ridden or lunged every day or every other day to bring out the best in them. Of course an easy button (or bit) would be the easiest answer...
I feel that I've received a great primer on bits here, thanks to everyone. But now I feel so badly for those poor horses at the dude ranch I went to a month ago here in central Florida with one of my kid's school adventure club- rank beginners on horses with various severe bits- it should be a crime! But if you go to any rodeo and watch the barrel racing (just went to one at our state fair), jerking bouncing stops with heads up is the norm.....I love my horse too much to do that.-Beth
Member:
Ajudson1

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 1, 2006 - 2:00 pm:

Beth,

Good for you to acknowledge that you love your horse enough to keep with the snaffle bit and work on horsemanship skills to benefit both you and your horse!!! I too agree that most places that rent horses have no idea how much the horses suffer. We rented horses at the Wisconsin Dells a few years back; my horse was just horrible! Why? her mouth was in so much pain from the usual curb bit, teeth needed work most likely. I didn't see any of the scenery because I was so concerned about my mount, and then at the end of the ride, she kicked my son's horse. (his 1st ever trail ride, probably his last) I warned the people running the place that this was an accident waiting to happen............

Regarding 4 reins: I was taught the reins should never, ever cross coming from the mouth to your hand. Keep the snaffle on top, the curb on the bottem just like it is in the horses mouth. Other alternatives are the snaffle reins in one hand, the curb reins in the other. Or break it up 3 in 1 hand, 1 in the other. This was the way the late John Richard Young believed to be correct.

I like the idea of the snaffle on top, curb on the bottem as I would be using my little fingers on the more severe bit. Unfortunately for me, and fortunately for the horse, I did eventually go with what everyone else does, and crossed the reins. The 4 reins do take a lot of talent! I prefer just having the 2, but as posted above, it's nice to sometimes use both when introducing a new bit.
Member:
Alden

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 1, 2006 - 5:41 pm:

Beth,

I agree the local/regional shows, barrel, reining, cutting, etc, have some very good examples of improper use a bit. If you get the chance to see a professional level event you'll see(some still slip in) some horses properly trained. I love to watch a reining or cutting horse working on loose floppy reins and responding like a fine tuned sports car!

Good luck on your western riding quest. Live clinics are great, but don't forget there are some really good DVDs out there that will help a lot. Of course a personal favorite is Clinton Anderson, but there is Chris Cox, Pat Parelli and others (only two I could think of :-))

Good day,
Alden
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