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  Discussion on Kicking out at riding whip
Author Message
Member:
Beckettj

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 31, 2006 - 2:59 pm:

I recently purchased a 7 year old Hanoverian gelding from his original breeder/owner, and have discovered that he strongly dislikes being touched by a dressage whip whether it be on the ground or under saddle. When touched, even lightly with the whip, he kicks out with the leg on the side the whip is being used, and has been known to kick the indoor arena wall with some force if I use the whip on the outside.

I am not a heavy user of the whip, but this guy is big and a bit heavy on the forehand, so I need the whip occasionally to keep him going forward. I never do more than just firmly tap him once, but he still objects, and I sometimes fear he will buck and throw me.

My trainer's solution to this is to hit him even harder with the whip when he resists, but my observation is that tactic works temporarily to get him to back off for the time being, and the behavior returns the next time I work with him. Also, I really hate hauling off and really smacking him with the whip. That's not how I feel training should be accomplished.

The downside in my opinion to positive reinforcement training is this guy's attitude. He definitely doesn't start out respecting you, and makes you prove to him he should give you space, both on the ground and under saddle. He has an "I'm God's gift to the world" attitude about himself over all, and I have a feeling he would just take the treats as his just due, and go on misbehaving.

Does anyone have any experience with this type of horse that can offer some advice? I'm really stumped here. Thanks!

Janice
Member:
Alden

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 31, 2006 - 5:39 pm:

Janice,

Your trainer's advice is what makes a horse this way. Rather than hitting him harder just continue to tap, when he response appropriately stop tapping; that's the positive reinforcement.

Two exercises on the ground will help you very much. First desensitize him to the whip. Try and find a place you can touch him with the whip that he will tolerate and stand still, remove the whip and praise him. Then touch a place he doesn't like, keep the whip on him until he stands still and relaxes. Keep his eyes on you and follow him where ever he needs to go, a round pen makes this easier, and remove the whip when he stands still and relaxes.

The other exercise use the whip to get his hind quarters to move freely, then the shoulders and the barrel. Give him the cue you wish him to learn, when he doesn't respond tap the air over his hip. More than likely he still won't respond, then tap the hip. Keep tapping the hip until he moves then stop immediately. You have to wait for him, he'll start wanting to find out what it will take for you to stop that darn tapping. At first he will want to stop you, stay safe and keep tapping, his attitude will change from “hey stop that” to “hey, what can I do so you'll stop that”. Then you have him and his is ready to learn.

Good day,
Alden
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 1, 2006 - 8:18 am:

Concerning your problem with positive reinforcement, it is easy to see why you are having trouble from your statement, "I have a feeling he would just take the treats as his just due, and go on misbehaving."

If you give him treats while he is misbehaving, of course he will go on misbehaving: you have reinforced bad behavior. Small rewards should only be offered when the horse is behaving well. For a detailed discussion of this idea see, Training Horses » Training Your Horse's Mind » Modifying a Horses Behavior: Conditioned Responses. You need to break your problem down into small steps where good responses are rewarded, bad ones ignored. If after reading the article you can't quite figure out how to go about this I would be glad to try and help formulate a plan.
DrO
Member:
Maggienm

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 1, 2006 - 9:12 am:

I agree with you, Janice, at this point a harder whack is not the solution.
Respect starts on the ground. I would suggest you review groundwork with him. Take 20 minutes before you ride.
Ask him to take a few steps forward. Does he pay attention to you, does he walk forward promptly focused on you? If not, this is where you start.
How does he halt? Squarely or does he shift his quarters looking over there......
One very good exercise is basically lunge him ,at the walk, in a very small circle, apprx 2 ft of lead line. The idea here is you are working on halt/walk and walk/trot transitions. Use the crop to reinforce your voice command (after doing as Alan suggested)
You only ask for a few steps of each gait, you are close enough to step up and reward with a pet or reassure with a rub if he gets frustrated.
This exercise quickly improves a horse respect and response. It is something he can learn quickly and do right so he learns 'right' is a good thing.
I don't hand feed while I'm training, I find it distracts most horses, they focus on my pockets.

There are other groundwork exercises but I don't want to overload you.
Please don't underestimate the value of groundwork and how much it will improve the way a horse behaves under saddle.
Last week someone posted very impressive info of how groundwork prepared a horse for riding.
Happy trails.
Member:
Beckettj

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 1, 2006 - 3:16 pm:

Thanks to all of you for your comments. You've given me some good ideas to start out with.

Actually, I've already started to do what Alden suggested. At least I've started my ground work by rubbing his body with the whip all around his barrel and hindquarters, and he is accepting that without objection. My next step will be the gentle tapping you suggest. I agree that the reward for the appropriate response to the tapping, i.e. moving away from the tapping without kicking out, should be verbal praise, and stopping the tapping. He's smart enough to get that in a short period of time.

Dr. O, I think you misunderstood my comments about treats. This horse is accustomed to getting treats for just being. I fear that if treats are supposed to be the motivation for good behavior, he'll likely focus on the treats and forget why he's getting them. Besides, as Lori mentioned, my experience has been that once you start giving a horse food treats like sugar cubes, etc. they start focusing on the source of the treats and lose the behavior connection.

Thanks!

Janice
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Feb 2, 2006 - 7:13 am:

The trick to keeping the horse from focusing on the treats and instead on the "behavior that results in the treats" is by keeping them completely out of site when not being rewarded and not getting a reward unless the desired behavior is being exhibited.

Horses focus on treats when that focus is rewarded with more treats. If searching for treats in not rewarded the behavior rapidly extinquishes. Unfortunately most folks love their horses attention, and rewards the behavior making it a frequent problem.

Do not underestimate the power of this technique you can use it to train horses to walk up narrow plank walkways to stand quietly on small platforms then jump into a pool of water 20 feet below. The trick is in how you execute the rewards.
DrO
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