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Discussion on Endurance physiology vs. feed
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Member:
Pellis
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Posted on Friday, Feb 3, 2006 - 4:29 pm:
I’m wondering if someone can give me some insight into the physiological - nutritional interaction for endurance riding. While conditioning and nutrition might best be under two separate threads I’m joining them together here because my question is related to both. As background, I’m conditioning an 11 year old quarter horse gelding to do limited distance endurance rides (please note I use ride and not race). While quarter horses are not the breed of choice for this sport, this horse is, for his breed, fairly well suited to do these types of rides. And, it happens to be the only horse I own at the moment that can do it.
I understand the physiology of the LSD riding and we are doing that and making good progress. At this point in time the longest ride we have accomplished is 18 miles at a rate of 4.5 mph. I noted that the horse was tired at or around 15 miles – still perky and very willing, but I could tell he was getting fatigued. (I, on the other hand, became fatigued and lost all perkiness at about 12 miles). About 3 weeks after that ride we did a 10 to 12 mile ride in 2 hours – or between 5 and 6 mph. After this ride he still had plenty of energy and spunk. Since that time we’ve only been able to ride 8 mile rides usually at a rate of about 4 to 5 mph. Between these longer rides he is ridden for an hour to and hour and a half 4 to 5 days a week – usually at the trot with a few minutes of canter interspersed. His resting heart rate is around 33 beats per minute. We have been “conditioning” for this for 3 months and under this program I feel like we are both progressing with our “conditioning”.
This horse is fed 2 pounds of a 12% pelleted feed (basic feed from the local co-op) in the morning and evening and about 8 to 10 lbs of coastal Bermuda hay split between the morning and evening. (This horse is approximately 14.3 hands and 940 lbs and an easy keeper). He is also turned out anywhere from 7 to 9 hours a day. (But there is nothing to eat in the pasture since we had no rain from August until January). Under the current conditioning and feeding program his body score on the Henneke scale is between 6 and 6.5. You cannot feel his ribs at all unless you press very firmly, and he has a slight negative crease down his back from the base of his withers to his dock. He has fat along his withers as well as at his shoulders. Overall, he looks good – or as my farrier commented last month, he looks very “athletic – like you can really ride him”.
To get to the question. Since he is holding his condition under the current feeding program I don’t feel the need to change anything at the moment. But, when you get to longer distances more often, is this enough feed to carry him through? When you start reading for endurance training you get all this nutritional information where they are feeding large quantities of such things as beet pulp, alfalfa and other supplements – some of them even have specific feeds made for each horse according to the horses “needs”. So, you start questioning yourself as to whether you’re doing things as you should. Yet, as I understand physiological aspects of the LSD conditioning, his body will get better at producing energy via the aerobic mechanism and he will end up using his fat stores to produce the energy needed for the ride. Is this correct? Or, am I way off base? Because he looks good and has plenty of energy I’m hesitant to change anything at the moment. I’ve always been one to simply go by the “look” of the horse and how he feels with regard to feeding needs. I’m beginning to believe that this is one of those times where I’ve read way too much information that isn’t really tied together. Any comments as to whether I understand the physiology of the long distance riding relative to nutrition is appreciated.
Patti
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Feb 3, 2006 - 5:51 pm:
Hello Patti,
Your horse is carrying too much weight for endurance riding. His body condition should be closer to a 5 with the ribs just visible. I know this may be surprising but this is the body score condition of horses winning these races. As you take off these pounds you will see some improvement in stamina.
We have an article that addresses most of your general points and specific questions, see Care for Horses » Nutrition » Performance Nutrition. If after studying it you still have questions we will be waiting.
DrO
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Member:
Pellis
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Posted on Saturday, Feb 4, 2006 - 12:06 am:
Dr.O,
I know that my horse is not in condition for endurance riding. I know that because I have read more than 2000 pages on research relative to conditioning for endurance. What you may have not grasped from the previous post was that we are conditioning at the moment. During the next year we won't be doing anything more that about 4 limited distance rides of 25 miles. The condition of my horse is not the question. I realize that it is Friday and what may be the end of a long week for you. And, I realize I may not have been very direct in my previous post. What I'm trying to verify from all my previous reading and research is as the horse becomes more aerobically conditioned does its body become more efficient at using the stored fat for energy? As a result of becoming more efficient in using the stored fat, they then have the energy to make the miles despite the fact that they cannot eat enough to do so before/during the ride. My reason for asking this, is that it doesn't seem that a horse can eat enough calories before/during a ride to compensate for the energy used. I'm just trying to tie the loose ends of all the research I've read together. Since I do research myself, I understand that research will only deal with the hypothesis of the moment. Very few try to actually turn the results into usable information for lay persons.
Thanks,
Patti
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Saturday, Feb 4, 2006 - 7:08 am:
Hi Patti,
I am going to give you my mums e-mail. If you e-mail her she can give you names of people who win alot in endurance. Some of my mums horses that win are all around the world or at least her bloodlines. If you do a search on her stud you see her horses in France arabia and more.She is in Australia but can refer you to people that can give you all the info you need to get your horse in top endurance form. Just tell her Katrina thought you might be able to help. Hope this helps. Her stud name is Whyneemah.
Katrina
whyneemah@bigpond.com
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Member:
Alden
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Posted on Saturday, Feb 4, 2006 - 9:31 am:
Patti,
I can't answer you're question directly but I don't think you're being fair to a quarter horse asking he to do even a LD. I did a LD on a Missouri Foxtrotted and it was very difficult for him. The same horse does extremely well at NTRC and weeks of guiding Elk hunters in the Rocky Mountains. In the endurance we rode the whole thing by ourselves (I didn't mind so much because most the people were jerks) but my horse wasn't as pleased. One guy riding a, all but out of control, gelding didn't even know the horse's name.
I found NTRC to be so much more enjoyable, the people were much nicer and we rode in small groups. We rode 38 miles over two days, the horse and I both enjoyed ourselves. He won first and I got third  I won't even put my Arab in an endurance, he will be doing NTRCs this year.
DrO,
Your post; is there any research into how much conditioning vs breeding determines performance? In other words does the light lean horse (condition 5) do better because of his condition or because he's bred a light lean horse.
I find the question of breeding interesting. Take a quarter horse. I've seen photos from the 1800s and those quarter horses didn't look much like today's, they were pretty lean and not very big. Is that because that's how they were bred or because they spent their lives following cows for hundreds of miles on little food?
I lean towards breeding myself, partially because of the my Arab horse. He is roughly a condition 5, but that's because that's how he is. I can put more food out but he won't eat it, if I put too much out it's there the next feeding. Is that just him, or his breed?
Maybe it's a chicken and the egg type of question. Of course there's a real possibility I'm not making any sense at all. 
Good day,
Alden
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Saturday, Feb 4, 2006 - 9:51 am:
If you did not want comment on your horses condition Patti, why did you include it in your post? I do take a bit of umbrage that I took the time to carefully read and digest your long post, go look up where the information you are looking for is at, then post it along with my thoughts on your overall post only to get back a curt post on unwanted comments and that the weekend may be effecting my performance. After all your post suggest you like where his condition is and your farrier concurs, at least that is the way I read it. I hope you are more courteous to Katrina's mother.
Taken from a link from the article I reference above Patricia: With exercise both fat utilization and glycogen availability increase in the muscle. There is more information on this subject in both that article and the one you have posted in.
DrO
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Saturday, Feb 4, 2006 - 9:58 am:
Let's see Alden, there is no direct research done on the question but the answer would appear to be both. In Endurance Rides I have vetted, body condition 5 Arabs outperform body condition 6 Arabs. However notice that I carefully define this as body condition in this and my earlier post which is not exactly the same as athletic condition. I have no doubt a well exercised 6 will outperform a stall rested 5 so it is not the whole story. It is unusual that a horse does not eat more than keeps him at a condition 5.
If you are asking are there genetic factors that nod the hat to the Arabs this too would be yes and while some of that tip is a smaller size a lot has to go toward the type muscle fibers and metabolic pathways they possess.
DrO
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Member:
Pellis
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Posted on Monday, Feb 6, 2006 - 9:49 am:
Dr. O,
I want to sincerely apologize for the tone of my email response. At the time I wrote it I was extremely upset - no more like very, very angry at my 17 year old daughter. And, there is nothing like an independent, hard-headed 17 year old girl to make a normally calm and patient adult want to take a baseball bat and do demolition work on something. I know better than to transfer my anger to someone else. I'm not making an excuse for my behavior, just wanted to explain that I'm not normally that kind of person and hope you will accept my apology.
I want everyone to understand that I really have no intention of doing more than limited distance rides in endurance. And, I don't intend to race - just get to the point where we can complete the rides in the allowed time. Generally, you have 6 hours to do 25 miles less the hold time at the vet checks. So, we will need to be able to maintain a pace of around 5 to 5.5 mph overall. I feel fairly confident that this horse will be able to do that with no problem once he's in condition. He's more of the small, wiry body type rather than the bulky, muscular build of a quarter horse.
I included the description of my horses condition in my first post to provide some information as to where we were in our conditioning program. It was probably not necessary given the question I was asking .
Again, please accept my apology for my last email.
Patti
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Member:
Pellis
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Posted on Monday, Feb 6, 2006 - 10:01 am:
Alden,
I chose the endurance over the competitive trail because my horses are barefoot. I use Old Mac boots for the rocky trails and have been told that the only boots allowed in competitive trail are Easy Boots which I don't care for. I was told this by someone who used to participate in competitive trail so it may be a rule that has been changed. If you know this is no longer applicable please let me know. Otherwise, I will check into it because competitive trail would also be fun.
I know that quarter horses are not the best breed for endurance, but there are many who are successful at it. The horse that holds the record for completing the most Tevis rides is a quarter horse. Not that I have any intention of doing Tevis or any other of the longer rides. This particular quarter horse is not the typical bulky, muscular quarter horse. He has more of a build like a mustang - small and wiry. I feel confident that with proper conditioning he will be able to do these LD rides since we're only going to ride - not finish in the top ten. In fact, my goal is to eventually get the "turtle award". You get that for being the last horse in under the time limit.
Let me know if that rule on the boots has been changed.
Thanks,
Patti
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Member:
Pellis
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Posted on Monday, Feb 6, 2006 - 10:08 am:
Katrina,
Thank you for providing me with your mother's email. It will be very helpful to talk with someone who has extensive experience in the sport. So many times they can provide wonderful insight and tips. And, I promise not to bombard her with questions.
Thanks,
Patti
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Monday, Feb 6, 2006 - 11:03 am:
Patricia, I don't know about 17 yr. old girls, but I had four teenage boys in the house at once, so I understand the baseball bat feeling. That's usually when I'd get on my horse and ride into the distance leaving everyone to fend for themselves for awhile!
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Member:
Ajudson1
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Posted on Monday, Feb 6, 2006 - 3:55 pm:
If DrO has raised any teenage girls, I am sure he'll understand and accept your apology. 
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Feb 6, 2006 - 6:11 pm:
I have 2 teenage girls and absolutely I accept your apology.
DrO
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Member:
Alden
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Posted on Monday, Feb 6, 2006 - 7:50 pm:
Patti,
I looked at the NATRC website, because interfering or forging will effect the horse's score there can be nothing that covers the coronet band. So Old Mac's wouldn't be allowed. I'd put shoes on the horse given my experience with Endurance racing, but to each his/her own.
I used Old Mac's and they are good, but I couldn't get past the putting them on and taking them off all the time. All my horses are barefoot right now and I have them shod as the need arises. In fact the horse I rode in the LD Endurance race was barefoot (no boots), he did a 38 mile NATRC one month later and in addition to 30-40 miles a week training (no protection) in the Mojave desert; his feet looked better than ever after all that riding. But that same horse was shod for two months during Elk season, the shoes are off and you can't even tell they were there. I think that a horse with good bare feet can do a NATRC without protection, but you have to work them into over several months.
Good day,
Alden
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Member:
Alden
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Posted on Monday, Feb 6, 2006 - 7:53 pm:
DrO,
Two teenage girls and you seem reasonably sane. I'm impressed!
Good day,
Alden
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