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Discussion on General disrespect
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New Member:
Boomer
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Posted on Monday, Feb 13, 2006 - 12:47 pm:
Help! I've got a 5 year old Appy gelding who is so darn disrespectful it's scary. He bites, pushes, uses his head to bash you every chance he gets. He even eats aggressively! I had him in training for 90 days and upon taking him home the trainer said "not a mean bone in his body". I beg to differ. Everyone is afraid of him now and I'm afraid I may have to get rid of him. I will tell you I have no experience with this type of horse. When should I give up? Any advise?
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Member:
Cpacer
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Posted on Monday, Feb 13, 2006 - 1:23 pm:
Did you do any work with you, the horse, and the trainer all together? That may be helpful in learning how to get him to respect your space.
I had to learn that too. In the beginning I thought it was cute that my horse liked to rub, nibble, and get in my face--thought it meant he liked me. One good knock in the head with brass made me reconsider that. Now that I'm over the 'he'll like me more if I let him do whatever he wants' phase I realize he respects (likes) me more now that I've established that.
I was jealous to see him DrOp his head looking for the 'good boy' after being told what to do by the trainer too--I just had to learn it for myself!
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New Member:
Boomer
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Posted on Monday, Feb 13, 2006 - 1:54 pm:
Well, I have to admit no. I adopted him from a rescue organization and put him right into training (the one they recommended). I don't think he did ground work just threw a saddle on him and called it good. It wasn't until I got him home that I noticed his aggressiveness towards humans. He has never rubbed his head he uses it as a weapon. He doesn't have the kindest eye either, sometimes he looks like he just wants to kill someone! I am afraid of someone really getting hurt or worse..as far as working with him, we can't even get close to him out of fear. He's that aggressive.
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Monday, Feb 13, 2006 - 2:34 pm:
First, I would get in touch with the trainer and get more information on how the horse was handled and trained. I would discuss the problem with him and see what his recommendations are. Maybe when the trainer worked with him the horse wasn't given the opportunity to push or bite. He could probably give you some tips as to how to handle him.
Is this trainer proficient in ground work, or is he just a "throw the saddle on and ride it out of them" kind of guy? Can he or is there someone else that can do ground work with this horse? He sounds like he needs a lot of it.
There are some great tapes and CD's available that show you how to work with a horse on the ground. If you are comfortable working with the horse and have an area where you'll be safe, like an arena or even better a round pen, then you might be able to work with him yourself.
A lot of horses if they either weren't fed enough, or were fed with a bunch of other horses without plenty for all, will act aggressive when they are eating. Is that the only time he acts aggressively? Or can you not even get into his stall or pen? If you don't even feel comfortable enough with him to halter him, or if you feel afraid of him, then you definitely need to get some professional help.
It sounds like this guy hasn't had a very pleasant life and is really "on the defensive." He obviously needs to learn respect, but he also needs to learn trust.
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Monday, Feb 13, 2006 - 2:57 pm:
I agree with Sara, he certainly sounds like he's on the offensive.
These are my two cents only...I am not a trainer.
Maybe the trainer is thinking of the wrong horse? What you're describing is hardly a "not a mean bone in his body" personality.
Where are you keeping him? Pasture? Stall?
Can you feed and water him without getting near him? If so do that and just leave him alone for a few days, maybe even a week. Keep the schedule consistent, this is very important. Feed at the same time, clean at the same time. It will give him some type of reassurance and will learn that this is his schedule. Don't ask him for anything, just let him be.
Basically treat him as though he had never been to the trainer. Know that you're starting from square one. After he's been there and is on a consistent schedule, start sitting and reading a book just out of his reach. Pay him no attention whatsoever, even when/if he comes over to check you out over the fence. After a few days of this you can start adding slow movements, etc.
Give him a couple of weeks and see what happens.
You may be surprised 
Good luck and stay safe!
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New Member:
Boomer
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Posted on Monday, Feb 13, 2006 - 2:59 pm:
I bet you just hit the nail on the head Sara, he does act like he's going to "get me before I get him". I never looked at it that way. I can halter him and scratch him, I just have to be on the "look out" and have a get away plan in case he starts in. He's with a very dominant older QH should I separate them? His trainer was an ex race horse trainer so I don't know how much ground work took place. I've asked him but he's pretty defensive too and I don't get much out of him. I guess I need to get some videos and get in the round pen. Maybe work on some trust, any suggestions on earning trust? I feel so stupid, but I've always had horses that weren't an issue. I bought this guy site unseen and the rescue organization hauled him to the trainer...
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Member:
Boomer
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Posted on Monday, Feb 13, 2006 - 3:05 pm:
He's in a pasture but I stall him to do any maintenance with the pasture. I'm so glad I posted this, yes you two are right, he's on the offense. He also kicks the stall like crazy when he's in there. One leg over and over again. I need a trainer to work with both of us..fast! Can anyone recommend anyone in Western Washington?
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Member:
Quatro
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Posted on Monday, Feb 13, 2006 - 3:31 pm:
Hi Patricia I would also suggest you notify the rescue organization of who they are referring. If this trainer did not spend time working with you, and represented the horse to you in an obviously incorrect way, the rescue organization should be notified, if indeed they are concerned about the path their horses are on when they leave their care.
suz
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Member:
Dtranch
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Posted on Monday, Feb 13, 2006 - 4:07 pm:
Patricia .. just my experience, but with most rescue horses I deal with, I invest first 30 days or so in ground work alone. They usually have many trust and security issues, and aggression is sometimes their only means of protecting themselves. One I begin riding, I continue basic groundwork throughout the training. Unless this horse has tremendous mental issues, 90 days should have eliminated most or all aggressive tendencies.
At any rate, ground work should remedy the situation, but please be careful if you are not experienced. With an aggressive horse, it is easy to get yourself in the wrong position at the wrong time. I have also had horses charge me in the round pen, which is an experience in itself.
Just my opinion.
DT
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Member:
Dtranch
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Posted on Monday, Feb 13, 2006 - 4:08 pm:
One more thing I think is important. I "always" include the owner in the horse's training. It is not important what I can get their horse to do if they can't get the same results.
DT
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Member:
Boomer
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Posted on Monday, Feb 13, 2006 - 4:26 pm:
I thought 90 days was good. I need to find a new trainer to work with both of us. That's all there is to it. I don't have the experience to deal with any charging that if any horse will do it this one will! Thanks for all the good advise.
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Member:
Cpacer
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Posted on Monday, Feb 13, 2006 - 4:40 pm:
That's nice you're going to give him a chance Patricia. Hopefully you'll find that he's only misunderstood and there's a lovely gentle gelding in there waiting to come out.
Above advice is great, maybe just hanging out with him for a while not asking him for anything will help you two start trusting each other.
btw--you came to the right place by joining HA. Congratulations.
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Member:
Hwood
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Posted on Monday, Feb 13, 2006 - 5:11 pm:
Major "dittos" to Dennis's posts.
Welcome, Patricia.
One thing that may sound silly, but I just wanted to put "out there." Lot's of Appys have the most odd looking eyes you'll ever see . . . at summer horsemanship camp one summer, I had one little camper cuddle up to me and say, "I don't want to touch HIM . . . HE'S SCARY!!" in speaking of my most gentle, old, Appy, lesson horse. Some DrOopy-eyed Appys can be misunderstood if folks are looking for horses to have "calendar Arabian" eyes.
One other thing . . . What is YOUR body language toward this horse? If you started out at all timid with him, and if he is a dominant and confident horse (and I really have never met an Appy gelding that didn't have just a quiet, strong, stubborn security and focus), he may just see you as a nuisance, and if you have allowed yourself to be intimidated, then the pattern has been set until you learn how to break and remake it. Is the trainer who worked with the horse adverse to you paying him come out and work with the horse for a session so you can view watch their interaction?
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Member:
Boomer
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Posted on Monday, Feb 13, 2006 - 6:07 pm:
Well, the trainer lives about 2 1/2 hours from my place, so it would be a really costly adventure. Plus, he I'm not sure he's the most regarded for horsemanship per say. From what I have learned he was a fantastic race horse trainer but I don't think manners count much in that discipline. Yes, Chai's eyes are that typical appy eye with the white sclera so he looks intimidating. Yes, he probably sees me as a nuisance, that's obvious when I'm giving him scratches. It's like he can't be bothered with attention. He's just well, stubborn, strong and dominant. But like I mentioned, I have an older QH that has him scared to death. You should see how he runs like heck at the slightest movement of the QH (Old Fred is the top of the pecking order of the entire herd). It's just the human interaction that Chai, the Appy is the most challenging. I have only been intimidated by him since this behavior started, well that WOULD be the beginning of our relationship. Arggg! I am just going to have to learn what you said; to break the pattern of my being intimidated and gain his respect. I really like him a lot and see so much potential for him I hate to feel like giving up. I really appreciate the help, like I said I'm not the most experienced at the training part of ownership. I've always gotten them "trained" so to speak. I need the training, obviously!
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Member:
Ajudson1
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Posted on Monday, Feb 13, 2006 - 6:42 pm:
Good advice all around. I'd like to add to PLEASE wear a helmet whenever you are going to be anywheres near him. And make sure someone knows you are with him, and keep your cell phone on you even....be careful.
I would follow the advice to just start being near him and feeding him on a schedule, and let him know he needs you for his feed and water. That will turn a lightbulb on in his head eventually. I think he's just very afraid of being hurt, and/or not getting his fair share of food. He's reacting the only way he knows how.
I have only known one horse who would charge you in the pasture...he had been hit by a truck and ended up under it at some point in his life before I knew him..talk about a scary horse to deal with!!! Hooked in his stall for grain, he would lay his ears back, and act mean as heck, but, he never bit. He would though lift his butt end up at you if you came into the stall from the rear.
Point is, if you don't know this horses past, take it real slow, and for now, do more watching than anything. And keep getting advice and help.
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Member:
Ajudson1
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Posted on Monday, Feb 13, 2006 - 6:46 pm:
Once you two are more comfortable, and this may be a ways down the road, something I found that helps at feeding time is I make the pushy horse stop and wait. Stop and back and wait..before he/she goes to the chow line. Any charging means a longer wait, a little more backing up. Stand again, etc.
The reason I joined this site was for info on feeding malnourished horses...well, when Miss Skin & Bones got some meat on her, she became Miss Push & Shove, ears back, feet stamping. The above procedure turned her into a polite Lady. And ground work outside helped also.
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Member:
Boomer
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Posted on Monday, Feb 13, 2006 - 7:07 pm:
Thanks Angie, that helps. You're right, I don't know his past and he was skin and bones. I'm going to wear a football helmet at this rate!
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Monday, Feb 13, 2006 - 8:03 pm:
Just a riding helmet will probably do!
You've gotten some great advice. IMO I would also separate him from your other horse for a while so he is dependent on you for companionship as well as food, etc. Then, just spending time around him, gradually getting closer to him, touching him, etc. I've also found that talking constantly in a quiet, calm voice helps. Good luck! And, keep us posted.
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Member:
Dove2
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Posted on Monday, Feb 13, 2006 - 9:31 pm:
What a challenge you have, Patricia! Chances are, your horse is very scared, probably more scared than you are. Racetrack trainers are not typically known for their compassion towards a horse, so you may not want to assume that anything at all was "fixed" by the trainer. (no offense meant to race track trainers, it's just that the focus is different in that discipline)
Everyone suggests taking is slow, and I too agree with that. It may take you weeks and, more likely, months to convince this Appy that you're a good guy. At the same time, however, you can't and musn't be a creampuff. Horses like those who know what they want.
One wonderful resource that is most helpful is Clinton Anderson: his tapes, clinics, etc. The reason I suggest him is that he offers a step by step primer style education for humans handling horses and very sound, easy to follow advice. I allowed my darling, precious three year old colt to go from a well behaved, obedient partner to one who decided he was in charge of me, solely because I wasn't enough of a leader for him. Clinton Anderson helps you go through a program whereby you establish your leadership with your horse. The key? Move your horse's feet! He starts in a round pen, but if you're like me without a round pen, you can start with "Lunging for Respect" and doing lots of groundwork exercises. If I were you, I'd beg, borrow or (well maybe not) steal his videos (eBay might be a good resource) as soon as you can. Review the tapes prior to implementing so you know where you're headed. Meanwhile, go slow and easy, grooming, walking your horse around the arena if that's safe, just watch and be around him, and keep yourself confident and safe, so that you don't inadvertently project fear to your Appy. The calmer you are, the calmer he'll be. Please don't even think of riding him until you have established an understanding of him and a repore with him. I have found the investment in the above mentioned tapes/CD's to be far superior to most trainers. Educate yourself first, then you'll be able to work with your horse more effectively and safely. It's wonderful that you are willing to give him an opportunity. Best of luck to you both.
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Member:
Leilani
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Posted on Monday, Feb 13, 2006 - 11:14 pm:
Try not to worry yourself too much about what happened to your horse in the past - it's past. Think of it as an opportunity to retrain a troubled horse. Start at the beginning and go from there. Be consistent in everything you do, from correcting to praise. It has worked for me.
I wish you the best of luck and do wear a helmet. I wear one now just because I can't be sure that if I'm launched I'll be killed instantly. Morbid, nope reality. Leilani
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Member:
Skye
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Posted on Monday, Feb 13, 2006 - 11:29 pm:
Everyone has given you excellent advice, and I have little to add; however, I lucked across a set of videos by Bob Dickinson (www.equihorse.com) that are clear and smart and humane. There is one on lungeing, one called ESTABLISHING CONTROL OF YOUR HORSE, and one they call a supplement about handling an aggressive horse.
I find them very valuable and well done--and very affordable, too.
I wish you luck!
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Member:
Jojo15
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Posted on Monday, Feb 13, 2006 - 11:54 pm:
I have to disagree with all above...I'll be the thorn This horse is only 5 years old? if you said 15 than i wouldn't start questioning the rescue and the trainer... and their obvious comingling. rescue says its agreat horse? trainer says its a great horse? you get it home and he ain't so great.... hmmmm... i see a red flag here.... Plus, he's only 5. How many bad starts could he have? how much abuse from a 3 year old in training that could happen in just 2 years?
Did you know this horse had no training previously? Or any knowledge of its past? Does anyone? Did they take him in half starving? Or ill? or just dumped?
If you truly want this challenge that is great. And more power to you. But what is your goal on this horse? Your first post indicated that you have no knowledge dealing with this kind of animal. Do you really want to spend thousands in training to find out this horse is possibly nuts? Somebody put a 5 year old in rescue for a reason. Thinking the rescue could rehab him. How long did the rescue have him?
I'm still wondering how much damage could happen in only 3 years. (assuming he was started at 2 ish and trained for a couple years) And i believe this horse has probably just never been trained. Was a handful to its first owners, and they dumped him when he got older and aggressive.
90 days of training isn't going to cut it for you to get on and enjoy him. You will have to train him daily. Sounds like this is a different thing than going to a rescue, taking in a trained but abused horse, and rehabbing it. Trust issues in a trained horse, and trust issues in a rank horse.... sound like the latter. Training the horse with no training and now trust issues is i believe different than RE training an abused horse. This sounds like you have a horse that was never really trained in the first place. he's been shoved around, and all he knows is to shove back. do you ever see sweetness in his behaviors? or any kind of him trying? If the trainer says he is a gem than why not with out the trainer? is it a man vs. woman issue? could be simple as that. But doubt it.
bottom line what is your goal with the horse? for you? your kids to ride and have fun on? or loftier goals? And then add in all the time and money it will take to get him where you want him. If thats not an issue or a big deal. And you are up for that challenge, good for you. But if not, and you are on here asking when to give in... than i would say now. Call the rescue, tell them he is just a little too much for you. Call the trainer, and say that he is NOT a wonderful horse. And see what they say? They should take him back in a heartbeat. their reputations are on the line. Sad, but this horse might be better off back at the rescue, where someone specifically looking for a challenge will find him.
Don't you think?
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Member:
Jojo15
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 14, 2006 - 12:05 am:
oh ps... everyone gave great advice on keeping yourself safe... so i don't disagree with that. just the keeping of him... or at least getting to the bottom of his history. if you can.
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Member:
Cheryl
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 14, 2006 - 7:48 am:
Mark Rashid is the first name that came to my mind in reading through this posting. He is in Colorado, but he does do clinics in Western Washington. There is a possibility the people who host him in Washington might be able to help you out. Mark's web site is
https://www.markrashid.com . If you read through his web site you will come up with a few answers on your own. If you contact them I'm sure they will be able to offer you some kind of help.
I'm working with a rescue right now. For the first four years of his life he was starved and abused. There were times I thought I would never gain his trust but when it was finally given it was absolutely beautiful. This guy probably has more than ample reason to fear two legged predators. Working past that fear may take a very long time - but it may also be more than worth it. You might also consider some clicker training. You can start it out with him in the stall and you outside. When he learns what the click means it may rev up his trust at warp speed. Good luck.
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Member:
Ajudson1
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 14, 2006 - 10:26 am:
joj,
Some good points. I do think plenty can happen in 5 yrs of his life though. And I still go with the thought of just letting him be for awhile, at least 30 days. As has been pointed out in other posts, and I've found too, that horses may take a yr to adjust to a new home with new people, routines, and other horses.
This may be a very sensitive, and a very intelligent animal believe or not. It may have been something minor from an inexperienced horse trainer/owner who set him off. Then he was loaded up, shipped to different environments, and perhaps mistreated again due to people being afraid of him. He may have been in a slaughter trailer, packed like a sardine for example,and got waaaay overloaded in the sensory dept. Who knows??
I agree he may have never had any training, and also agree Patricia should ask herself some hard questions. BUT, before she dumps him again, give him some time at his present home. Unless he's acting like he seriously wants to kill her, or anyone else, including other horses, I'd give him the benefit of the doubt.
Just my thoughts....
P.S. I have a little Arab mare, who if you didn't know her, you'd think she's out to kill!! Anytime she is pushed to do something she don't understand, she will flatten her ears, and try to dump me! That's just her way; she's very sensitive and has to be asked, not TOLD what to do!!!
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Member:
Lhenning
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 14, 2006 - 10:27 am:
I am also dealing with disrespect issues with my four year old (and at this age they are really just teenagers, so their attitude problems are magnified). I've thought a lot about the post from joj, and I'm sure you are also. Taking on the work of training a young horse is a big challenge in itself, but in my situation I know the horse and his history and know underneath he is a sweetheart. He just needs firmness from me and time to grow up. I think you need to stop and give yourself some long, hard thought on how much time you want to invest in this horse. I do believe it is possible to rehab him, but you need to educate yourself at the same time. I ditto the advice on using Clinton Anderson's techniques. I have his book Clinton Anderson's Downunder Horsemanship: Establishing Respect and Control for English and Western Riders, which I bought on Amazon.com. You can watch Clinton and other horse trainers on RFDTV, if you get that channel. I also read through the advice in the article associated with this thread on aggression. I don't advocate beating horses by any means, but I used the Doc's ideas on keeping a stick handy when my horse tried biting me and found it a very good tool. I also back him up aggressively, with big movement, whenever he does ANYTHING disrespectful toward me. I know I've been too soft with him in the past, talking in this soothing baby talk voice to ease his troubled mind or giving him scratches and pats because I wub him. Hah, not anymore, I have seen what it leads to. It is the firm, strong, consistent behavior on my part that brings out the best in him. Pats and praise are for good behavior only. Show no fear, expect a bit more than you expected yesterday, be fair but be the lead mare and demand good behavior. You say the boss horse he is being kept with can keep him in line, so that is the way you have to be also. I do ground work with my horse every time I ride him, and some days if he is too nuts, I just do the ground work and ride him another day. I've learned to watch his attitude from the moment I get near him, and if I see any sign of disrespect, to get after him. It can be a tiny nip, or moving into my space, but if I let it go he sees it as weakness on my part. Good luck and be safe.
Linda
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Member:
Terrilyn
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 14, 2006 - 11:33 am:
Oh Bravo, Linda. These are exactly the same things I have been learning from our trainer. I am amazed at what a softie I've always been...at my own risk. It is very hard to learn the skills you describe, though, especially if you've always been too soft. But once you figure it out with the correct amount of pressure, when to apply, when to let off, when to be a nice guy....what a difference! Well said.
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Member:
Dtranch
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 14, 2006 - 12:14 pm:
My wife and I were just discussing this same thing. I train outside horses, and she does most of the feeding and daily chores. I am always commenting on how well a horse is doing ... and she says the horse is awful. She too is a softie and a baby talker. The horses learn quickly that they can push their way into the barn and invade her space with no problem. Its amazing ... when I feed in the evenings, they all pretty much go to their own stall and wait for me to feed. If they crowd me, a firm "get back" and all is in order. When she feeds, they will try every stall and push their way around her, pretty much ignoring her altogether. I have worked with her on learning ground work and other basics, but she just wants to love them. Believe me, these animals are not stupid. Obviously, there may be many issues causing your problem, but establishing the respect and trust will go a long way in establishing a good relationship. When my wife lunges, she basically lets the horse run around in circles pulling on the rope and in general having his way. I use lunging as a valuable tool with lots of direction changes, encouraging slack in the rope. Lots of stops and go with releasing the rear with each direction change.
I honestly believe that the horse is more comfortable and relaxed when he finds a leader. It is hard work and time consuming, and as others have posted, if you are not up to the task, perhaps a second thought is necessary. If you are willing to invest in this horse, I feel sure you will find a gentle and respectful partner to work with you for years to come. It is rare that you have a genuinely "mean" horse. It happens, but is rare in my opinion.
DT
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Member:
Dakotab
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 14, 2006 - 12:23 pm:
We sold a 4 year old Appy to a kids camp. He was great with everyone and the kids rode him. A girl with no experience tried to use some training methods on him,she was not a trainer, and he became aggressive and they all became afraid of him. He would charge them if they came near him when he was eating in his stall. And were afraid to ride him.He was given to a rescue farm. The girl called me and ask me his background. I told her he was a great trail horse, and loved kids. She called me within a couple of weeks and said he was fine. And that she had no problem riding him, he knew who was boss and respected her. He now has a great home with kids and they love him.
So I believe a bad experience can be overcome with the right treatment. Of course she knew his background and realized he was in a bad environment for only a year. I hope you give him a chance. Our experience with Spirit was you could discipline him but not hurt him. Good Luck
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Member:
Jerre
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 14, 2006 - 12:24 pm:
Patricia, where are you in Western Washington? I'm near Olympia and know a number of respected, natural-minded trainers.
Jerre
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Member:
Boomer
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 14, 2006 - 3:35 pm:
Issaquah area. Tiger Mountain. Olympia isn't too far!
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Member:
Erika
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 14, 2006 - 4:01 pm:
OOOO! Patricia, I'm with JOJ on this one. I assume that one reason you took a rescue horse is for financial considerations? Training will add up fast, with no guarantee that your horse will change his attitude toward YOU satisfactorily.
I've said it a million times...there are a lot of good horses out there. The rescue should trade this horse in for another if nothing else. They want a good match, for the sake of their reputation as well as for the sake of their horses.
Sometimes there are really sweet "freebies" around. Someone is dreading the hassle of trying to sell a horse and they just want a good home for it. Ask around at stables and you might be surprised at some gems for very low price.
Sorry, but I vote "no" on a horse that has you scared!
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Member:
Boomer
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 14, 2006 - 5:07 pm:
No it wasn't a financial decision to go with a rescue. I do have other horses that aren't rescues and know the costs associated. I just really liked his looks, size and he wasn't like this until I brought him home from the trainer. My other horses are TB's, QH's and Paints and they are all are wonderful. He was only gelded last June right before I adopted him. I don't know his past other than he was at the rescue about a week when I got him. OMG, I just thought of this I wonder if he's one of those horses that only one testicle comes down? He is studdy..I think I need a vet to come (he's been seen just over a month ago but put up such a fuss we only wormed him) have her give him a good full exam. He may need to be sedated..heavily
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Member:
Jerre
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 14, 2006 - 10:03 pm:
Patricia, You are in luck! There are a lot of very good horsepeople near you. For starters, go to www.nwnhc.com. The Northwest Natural Horse Center is in Fall City, and has Centered Riding instructors in residence. But more to your point, the center hosts many clinicians -- all of whom focus on relationship and effectiveness without harsh methods. Anything you can audit there would be great.
Also, the yahoo group westernwashingtonparellinaturally is a regional clearing house for natural horsemanship events. This region has a lot of Parelli students, and many of them are in upper levels, so they might be a good resource. And the yahoo group is friendly to other natural clinicians, as well.
If you want more information on specific people, please feel free to email me at credecker@olywa.net.
Cheers,
Jerre
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Member:
Miamoo
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 15, 2006 - 8:05 am:
It shouldn't cost a fortune to get someone in to do an evaluation with you or for you. This should be the number 1 priority.
My cousin is an excellent horse person. She adopted a horse that was very large (almost drafty) that had had little work. It reached the point of almost giving up and trying to decide where to send him that wouldn't kill him (after he had broken her husbands hand and nearly trampled her daughter and a variety of other problems. They had a trainer come in and work with them to help them decide what to do and the difference is amazing. They had him pegged as dangerous and now their 10 year old daughter is riding him with no problems. He was just scared and didn't understand what they wanted. Once he understood and was able to relax and listen rather than act like a bull in a china shop, he was fine.
Who knows if your horse is scared, mean or something else. You should get someone to help you figure this out. Whether or not you keep him it might make a huge difference to his future.
Ella
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Member:
Jojo15
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 15, 2006 - 9:48 am:
I don't think its the horse that needs evaluating its the person. A horse is a horse. and many times can be the perfect horse with different people. with different levels of experience or temperament. Patricia needs to evaluate herself. her endurance, her level of experience, and her willingness to tackle this problem. Or make the decision that this horse is too much for her. I have had horses that i was NEVER afraid of no matter how rank they got. and then i have had horses that just scared me. It was me not the horse acting differently.
Most horses can be handled by people of all levels. and then there are some horses that will just NEVER respect certain people.
If you have other horses that are wonderful, you are doing something right. and its frustrating because this one isn't working with the methods you use on the other horses. So, its not the horse that would need the changing so much but the owner. i just don't have it in me to do that with that kind of horse. And there is nothing wrong with feeling that way either. To me life is too short and i have horses to have fun with. Being constantly challenged by your horse is a very tiring thing. some people find this challenge invigorating. some do not.
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 15, 2006 - 10:46 am:
I still think you need to give this guy a little time before you send him away. Having the vet out is a great idea, an evaluation is great too. There is no harm doing a little detective work to determine what needs to be done...or not done...to make your new boy happy.
Just stay safe while doing it...and take baby steps. If in a couple of weeks you see no change, then you have a decision to make
That being said, *I* am not the one handling the horse... *you* are. It is ultimately your decision and any decision I ... and I am sure, we all ... would support you in.
Again, stay safe
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Member:
Boomer
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 15, 2006 - 1:12 pm:
Well, thank you for all the help and encouragement. I met the trainer at 8am this morning and he came and got Chai. No, I'm not selling him, I'm just going to have this trainer work with both of us (Chai and myself) He said that he didn't do much ground work, just broke him to ride. So, we will start over...
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Member:
Alden
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 15, 2006 - 3:15 pm:
I'd find a new trainer, ground work is "breaking to ride". I hate the word breaking (in fact sounds like this horse is broken), young horses should be started not broken, someone down the road will need to fix a broken horse.
Sending a horse home in this state, is another reason to find another trainer.
Good day,
Alden
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Member:
Dtranch
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 15, 2006 - 4:07 pm:
Ditto Alden ... 90 days and "didn't do much ground work". I generally do a minimum of 15 to 30 days of ground work "only" before backing. Gotta wonder what was going on there .. huh.
DT
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Member:
Quatro
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 15, 2006 - 5:16 pm:
Patricia, is this the original trainer that came to get him today, or a new trainer?
Was this a comment made by a new trainer about the "race track" trainer, and they are going to go back to the basics with him, or is this the same guy that had him for 90 days?
suz
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Member:
Boomer
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 15, 2006 - 5:54 pm:
My apologies, I read my post and it sounded confusing even to me. This is a new trainer that made the comment on the old trainer whom he is very familiar with. He is going to work with both this horse and myself using natural horsemanship ideas. We both will start from the ground up and bring things around. I really like this horse and am now determined (after all of your support)to give him every chance he deserves. I think we just let him get the best of us (husband & I). We have never really had a problem like this one. This has been a new experience and we will take the opportunity to learn from it. And yes, I wholeheartedly agree, the term "broke to ride" is horrible. It's an old fashioned word that most likely in time and education will disappear. Thank you all!
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Member:
Liliana5
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 15, 2006 - 6:51 pm:
Hi Patricia,
As I live in Cozumel Mexico where unfortunately most people do not respect animals almost all my horses are rescue, except for 2 that came with the pregnant rescued mare! My advice is to please remember that horses are not predators there for they only learn to defend themselves. I know is not easy not to be afraid of a big crazy horse (remember I have 8 that came in that way and three are blind) But love and patience works wonders, once they are sure that you will not hurt them they will love you for giving them a good home! I feel it really is worth taking the time to gain their trust, in the end is so rewarding when you look back and see them come back to life and be the gentle trusting animals that horses really are.
Please be patient, let him get to know you!
All the best Liliana
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 15, 2006 - 7:18 pm:
This sounds very good. I think you will enjoy the experience and learn a lot - as will the horse.
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Member:
Boomer
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 23, 2006 - 3:48 am:
Well, I've been out to the trainers and working with Chai. He seems more available to me mentally and let me love on him a bit without trying to swing his head at me. I also noticed as I walked around and was looking at the other horses he was watching me. I mean he really was watching me. I would turn and look from other pastures/paddocks and he was watching me. I hadn't seen him in 5 days. I hope he missed me a little. I know they aren't like dogs but I wonder how their memory is. I know they remember abuse but...
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 23, 2006 - 10:54 am:
Sounds promising Patricia
They have memories like elephants. Sometimes that's a good thing and sometimes it's not so good. But eventually the good memories win out with fair and correct handling
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Member:
Boomer
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Posted on Friday, Mar 3, 2006 - 3:53 pm:
I went and visited Chai and he was surprisingly I think pleased to see me. I found him a lot calmer to be around. He kept his eye on me the entire time like he didn't want me to go. I think this guy just needs some patience and attention. I took his buddy, one of my TB geldings out there to be his pal while he's there. Vet was out and said he's in great shape. Love the trainer, calm cool and collected
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Member:
Hwood
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Posted on Friday, Mar 3, 2006 - 4:13 pm:
Sooo happy for you both! Just what the doctor ordered!
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Member:
Erika
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Posted on Friday, Mar 3, 2006 - 4:19 pm:
Glad to hear it!
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Member:
Boomer
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Posted on Tuesday, Mar 28, 2006 - 1:23 pm:
Just another update. I went this past weekend and rode Chai. He was the most pleasant and loving little guy. I think we are definitely back on track! I've had 4 people beg me to sell him! 
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Member:
Tuckern
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 29, 2006 - 1:37 pm:
Hi Patricia,
I have just found your thread, and wanted to give my congratulations on your progress with Chai.
Chai sounds alot like my horse Roheryn when I first got her, and it took me about a year to get through to her, and gain her respect and trust. In the beginning, Roheryn did NOT like to be lunged. When lunged, she would charge me, ears back, teeth bared, rearing and striking. I, too, got to the point that I honestly didn't think I was going to be able to get through to her, I was afraid of her. I talked to alot of trainers and friends, and they helped me see that Roheryn needed a leader. Her previous owners were not kind to her, and she became very confused in life, very resentful, and got to the point that she didn't know what to do around humans. So, she became aggressive. She learned that that was the way she would be left alone. Once I figured this out, that she needed a leader, I approached it differently. I started over with her, doing lots and lots of groundwork, with a firm, but patient hand, and she quickly learned to respect me. Granted, it did take a couple whacks across the nose with a lunge whip when she tried to charge, but eventually a light bulb went off in her head, she saw me as a leader, and now, 8 months later, we are conditioning for our first in endurance ride this spring.
My point is, it sounds like Chai didn't understand his place in the herd. He was obviously not the herd leader (you said your QH was), so I believe he was pushing you around to see if you would challenge him too, or if he was your leader. Does that make sense?
I'm glad you were able to find someone to help you out with Chai; you guys will go far. He just needs help finding out who he is, and where he belongs in the ranks. ;0)
Nicole in New Mexico
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Member:
Boomer
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Posted on Monday, May 8, 2006 - 3:18 pm:
Quick update! Chai has turned out to be a fantastic little horse who is happy and funny to be around. Thanks for all the help. 
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Member:
Hwood
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Posted on Monday, May 8, 2006 - 3:35 pm:
Yippee! I love happy endings . . . or should I say, "Happy Beginnings?"
Any chance of a picture of your Chai?
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Member:
Boomer
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Posted on Monday, May 8, 2006 - 4:33 pm:
I will have to take a good one and post it! I'll post a picture of my lit[IMG]https://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h63/trishblo/chai2.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]https://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h63/trishblo/momhope2.jpg[/IMG]
tle 3 week old:
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Member:
Boomer
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Posted on Monday, May 8, 2006 - 4:34 pm:
I guess I hit post too soon. Chai is the little palomino on the right eating hay. The other two are my QH and her little 3 week old filly. Just proud.
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Member:
Hwood
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Posted on Monday, May 8, 2006 - 5:32 pm:
Adorable foal, Patricia . . . I thought Chai was an Appy?
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Member:
Boomer
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Posted on Tuesday, May 9, 2006 - 1:00 pm:
Believe it or not he is! He's got striped hooves, definite white sclera, spots over his body, motted skin. He may be 1/2? I adopted him from a rescue (CBER) and they told me that, I didn't believe it but my Aunt who has raised nothing but Appy's for the past 30 years says definitely he is
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Member:
Hwood
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Posted on Tuesday, May 9, 2006 - 1:45 pm:
Does he have Appy spots? I have two palomino-type Appys right now. One is a P.O.A. (25 yrs.)that I've had for 15 years, and the other is a 30+ year old gelding I bought from the ranch I managed in CA. I'll see if I can post pics of them.
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Member:
Boomer
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Posted on Tuesday, May 9, 2006 - 2:31 pm:
Yep, on his rump more than everywhere but he does have spots everywhere. Your's look really close to Chai! Yours are the first I've seen (besides Chai). I didn't believe it either until my Aunt pointed out all the characteristics he's got. I just thought he had "crazy" eyes, can you believe it? The sclera are very prominent as well as the spots and stripes. How tall are these guys?
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Member:
Hwood
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Posted on Tuesday, May 9, 2006 - 3:12 pm:
The pony is 12.2h and the old gelding is about 15.2h, I think. I never measured him, and he's in Kansas right now so I can't look out to see him, but I don't think he's 16h. So glad Chai (doesn't that mean "life?") has found a good home and love with you.
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Member:
Boomer
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Posted on Tuesday, May 9, 2006 - 6:59 pm:
Thanks, I was very worried for a while believe me. I was at my witts end and was really going to sell him. One think is necessary with these guys is patience!
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Member:
Dtranch
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Posted on Wednesday, May 10, 2006 - 8:34 am:
Patricia ..... now you got it
I have always said that training is 10% knowledge, 10% technique, and 80% patience. The problem is that most people expect their horses to perform every task immediately or there must be something wrong with it. Then they try to force the horse to do it and the battle is on. Learn as much as you can, but most of all be patient and give your horse a chance to learn. Hopefully, you are wanting to build a bond that will last a life time, so a few months of work is not a whole lot to ask for. I work with a lot of 4H kids (and parents) of course who get upset when their horse will not turn the barrel properly, or when they knock down poles, or whatever discipline they are working on. When I ask them how much they have worked on this event, the answer is generally rarely if ever. They just decided to do it for 4H. Unfortunately, this is not uncommon in the horse world.
DT
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