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Discussion on Hoofs hard to pick up
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Member:
Heidim
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 14, 2006 - 9:25 pm:
I'm interested in buying a 13.1 hand 16-year-old Morgan cross mare. She's got lots going for her and a few vices that I can accept with one possible exception: she leans hard when you try to pick up her feet. She's fine once you get the hoof picked up, but it's a struggle to get to that point. The reason this especially bothers me is that good farriers are hard to come by in our area. Mine is exceptional, but caters only to owners with well behaved equines. Is there any chance this mare can be retrained? I'd appreciate hearing from anyone who's had experience with this problem.
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Member:
Christel
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 14, 2006 - 11:29 pm:
Hi Heidi, hope this works for you. Whenever a horse leans on the foot I am trying to pick up, I lean into them with my shoulder closest to them, this makes them shift their weight to the opposite hoof. If horse continues to lean on you while holding the hoof up, tip the hoof upwards towards the belly and slowly lower the leg. Make sure all of your weight is on your outside foot and leg, as that makes it easier for you step away.
Minor problem, most horses will try this a few times.
Chris
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Member:
Dtranch
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 15, 2006 - 8:47 am:
Heidi ... I train my horses to pick up feet when I reach for them. I do this by pushing on the shoulder of the foot I want to pick up til weight shifts to opposite side before I pick up. You will notice when you ask for this weight shift, the foot you are wanting will naturally come up just a little and this is when you pick up immediately. You must try and hold the foot up til the horse relaxes, then gently place back on the ground. Practice this and, as with any training technique repeat and reward many, many times. Most of my horses actually place their foot in my hand when I just reach down for it.
DT
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 15, 2006 - 10:49 am:
In addition to the above, I would get her feet checked. I had a horse in my barn that would do that...his feet were too long. After the farrier came, he stopped.
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 15, 2006 - 11:49 am:
One other note, I do what Dennis does, but also I say "foot." Most of mine just life their feet up when they see me bend down, and if they don't I remind them by saying "foot." To get to that point however, when they don't pick up a foot, squeeze hard either right below the back of the knee or right above the fetlock. Sometimes you have to use the shoulder technique at the same time.
Once the horse picks up it's foot, tell her how good she is, give her a pat, and move on to the next foot. Don't hold the foot up but a few seconds at first. Also, be sure when you pick up a foot, that you are holding it under her and not out a what is an uncomfortable angle for her.
If not wanting to pick up her feet is her main fault, I sure wouldn't let it keep me from buying the horse. She'll quickly learn the right way to do it.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 16, 2006 - 7:22 am:
There is little doubt the horse can be retrained and Dennis has the key above. However I find most folks when told to reward good behavior actually end up rewarding bad behavior in an attempt to "bribe" the horse. For more on theory on shaping horses behavior through positive reinforcement see, Training Horses » Behavioral Problems » Behavior Modification, Conditioning, Desensitization, and Counterconditioning.
DrO
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Member:
Alden
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 16, 2006 - 9:10 am:
I agree with most of the other posts, but I do differ on a couple points. Many people pick up the foot as soon as the weight is off. I require my horses to pick their foot clear off the ground into my hand, I think it helps a horse balance if he's responsible for getting it off the ground. I don't like to upset the horse's balance so I don't push on the shoulder either. If the horse is so insensitive to ignore my cue on the cannon bone I'll use a hoof pick to get their attention, usually I only have to use it once or twice and the foot flys off the ground.
Another suggestion is stick to one foot until the horse picks it up right every time, rather than pick it up once and moving to the next foot.
I agree with DrO that many people get the reward timing wrong, timing is everything and I think a kind word and/or a quick rub is easier to get timed correctly than are treats.
Good day,
Alden
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Member:
Liliana5
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 16, 2006 - 1:22 pm:
Another note that may help, I Also use foot, or pick it up, try to use it all the time so they can relate sound, action, reward!
Eventually you'll just have to say pick it up or just stand next to the horse and it will pick up. . But is an every day every time thing until they relate. Trust me it works remember all my rescues are nuts when they arrive!
Also if they lean on me, I let the foot DrOp hard, they hate this! It hurts I'm sure, pinch the leg you need to pick up, and yes bribery works wonders!
Oh an important note on my opinion, find the height that is naturally comfortable for your horse to pick up! Ask someone to lift your own leg and you will see what I mean!
Liliana }
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Member:
Chance1
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 16, 2006 - 3:25 pm:
Most of the above suggestions are great. I'll add one that worked well for my farrier and me. We ask the horse gently to back up while in position to pick the foot up and we catch it on the way up. He now shifts his weight so he can comfortably pick up his foot as soon as we ask him to pick up his foot, which he does without being backed up now. I've found that when I lean on a horse to get them pick up their feet, they just brace or lean back on me. Often the horse's weight is not properly distributed to comfortably hold up his or her foot and this seemed to help. My farrier pointed out that he could tell when Chance was trying to help in the shoeing process by his shifting of weight prior to picking up his feet.
Whatever you find that works will, through good timing and repetition, solve the problem.
Good luck!
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Member:
Maggienm
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 16, 2006 - 5:18 pm:
Heidi, yes your horse can be retrained to pick up her feet and keep them up.
Personally I use a similar method as Alden. I find the horse stays balanced much better if he picks up his own foot.
I don't like a horse to pick up the foot every time my hand gets close to the leg or hoof. I always use leg protection on my horse when I ride and I frequently wrap the legs, I want the horse to stand still while I put the protection or wraps on.
If the horse stands still without flicking his foot up every time you run your hand down his cannon it is also much easier to check for swelling, heat, examine cuts, bumps etc.
What ever method you use look for small improvements and remember consistency and patience are the keys.
Good luck.
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Member:
Hwood
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Posted on Friday, Feb 17, 2006 - 10:07 am:
Ruth, you bring up one of the most important, if not THE most important, points in the technique of having our horses pick up their feet for us . . . the horse needs to be standing balanced.
I have witnessed a ton of folks, farriers included, who just walk right over to a horse and reach down and grab a leg . . . and pinch and tug . . . and huff and puff . . . and growl at the horse, when if they would just LOOK at the horse first and evaluate where the balance needs to be before the foot can come up . . . well, it would solve lots of frustration for the people and the horses and make training a heck of a lot easier.
Get the weight off of the foot you want to have the horse lift . . . and it can be as simple as touching the lead line under the horses chin and just asking the horse to lean back or lean forward . . . shifting his weight . . .
I, too, approach and point to a foot and give a smooch or a "git it up." With horses who don't know my cues, I do the above first and then tap the heel with the rounded side of the hoof pick until I notice the weight coming off that foot . . . and then I quit tapping immediately and "smooch" for a lift up signal . . .
I, too, have had the experience that if we lean on a horse, it will lean back on us . . . and that sets a precedent of us teaching the horse that we will hold his weight.
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Member:
Liliana5
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Posted on Friday, Feb 17, 2006 - 10:35 am:
Sooo true voice commands are essential, if we remember that horses can understand up to 280 works (don't ask me where I read it but it has been tested!) ( it may have been in the UK or Germany don’t remember) Gives us plenty to work with, Lori very rightly says that if you stand by the horse and he lifts his foot when you are trying to bandage can be a pain... but if we use, put it down! Simple.
Really if you think of it 280 words gives us a lot of training aids doesn’t!
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Member:
Liliana5
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Posted on Friday, Feb 17, 2006 - 10:58 am:
duh It's words, hate the auto spell
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Member:
Christel
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Posted on Friday, Feb 17, 2006 - 11:00 am:
Holly you are so 'right on', on the balance part or 'being squared up' as I call it. I have even looked at the horse and if one leg is out of the square will start w/ it as it usually has no weight bearing on it- lazy persons way, I suppose.
I guess I have trained my horses to quit leaning when I lean on them. Very seldom do I have to lean in to them but they will get off me when I do. Each to his own.
Another thing I do when picking up a foot(front only). I grab the hoof below the fetlock with my arm going down the backside of leg, then using my elbow will put pressure at the back of the knee, causing the horse to bend at the knee and lift the hoof off the ground-another lazy persons game.
I also use a verbal cue- which is 'give me'. Just be consistent in what you use and they will quickly associate what they are suppose to do when that word or phrase is spoken.
I never on purpose just DrOp the hoof, I don't like the sound or the look on the horse when I do that- I always think something is going to break-lol.
I am anxious to hear back from Heidi, if any of the advise has helped.
Chris
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Friday, Feb 17, 2006 - 11:29 am:
What about staying on one side of the horse to pick all four feet? It really helps the leaning issue. I alternate daily. My horse knows when I tap a leg to lift it for me. How did I teach it...I have no idea
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Member:
Liliana5
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Posted on Friday, Feb 17, 2006 - 12:30 pm:
Aileen
I cannot figure out how you could do all feet be picked up from one side??!! I do front back front back usually starting from the left.
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Friday, Feb 17, 2006 - 12:54 pm:
It's easy, I must not have explained it correctly.
Let's say I'm standing at his left shoulder, I ask for the left front, clean it, set it down and tap his right front, he picks it up, I reach under him to get it, I clean it, etc.
I guess the racehorse people clean this way? It does take less time.
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Member:
Tangoh
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Posted on Friday, Feb 17, 2006 - 1:52 pm:
Aileen,
What you're explaining is also a Parelli method. We do this all the time. Takes the horse a while to figure it out. They usually pick up the foot on the side you are standing for the first few attempts, even when you're tapping the far one.
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Member:
Sswiley
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Posted on Saturday, Feb 18, 2006 - 12:12 pm:
Since we are on the subject of hoof etiquette. Any ideas on how to keep mares (I have never had a gelding do this) from jerking their hind leg up to their belly after they lift it for you. It is not a problem for me but our pony does this when me 8 year old daughter cleans her feet. Poor little thing just hangs on for all she's worth. The pony only does it once, possibly twice,she never "kicks" back out either, but it is hard on the little kids.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, Feb 19, 2006 - 9:54 am:
Shelly I would design a training regimen that rewards "good behavior" but not the undesired ones. Take it in small steps until the pony is completely relaxed picking up the foot. Rewards come with no jerking but when the foot is jerked there is no reward.
DrO
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Member:
Heidim
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Posted on Sunday, Feb 19, 2006 - 10:18 pm:
Thanks for all your input. I do square up my equines and lean into their shoulder before picking up a hoof, but this mare's leaning was truly obstinate behavior. I do think she could be retrained with much persistence and with the help of some of your suggestions. However, she was also terribly barn sour, thanks to an owner who thought it was great fun to run her home full-out at the end of every trail ride. She'd done this for 12 years, and, for this reason, I didn't think I'd ever trust the mare with kids. I'm now considering an 18-year-old ranch gelding, which may be a better match for us.
Shelly, I've had the same trouble with mares and even more so with my mules. I've found that the best fix is lots of repetition until the mare/mule gets bored of the jerking and slowly relaxes the foot. I don't even pat them; I just let them figure out the extra effort isn't worth the trouble.
As for your daughter, I suggest you work with the mare first and then show your daughter what works once you've got it figure out yourself. I've helped start a lot of kids in addition to my own, and nothing turns them off quicker than nonstop frustration. If they can watch you handling the feet successfully, they'll be more motivated to try it themselves. Good luck.
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