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Discussion on Lunging Young Horse
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Member:
Canter
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 15, 2006 - 8:30 am:
Hi All,
A young friend of mine asked me to teach her how to lunge her aprox 4.5 yo Paint mare, using my circingle and side reins. Apparently, the mare is bobbing her head at the canter and my friend feels the lunging will help.
I have never trained a young horse, this horse is well started but they ride western (I ride dressage) and I have no idea if the lunging w/ side reins would be the least bit effective in helping this little mare.
A couple of points about the horse to consider:
~She was started mid to late last summer and has done exceptionally well (but I personally think she's been asked for too much canter work, too soon)
~She is sound so the bobbing is not due to lameness but my guess is it is a balance issue (but I haven't seen her worked recently)
~She's been lunged before, but what I consider incorrectly or as just an energy reducer i.e. at the end of a line going in circles with no real purpose
~She is unshakable - nothing bothers this mare. Everything is a non-event with her and I've never seen her get upset about ANYTHING (and I've witnessed some of her training such as when she learned to tie - no big deal to her)
So, all that said, here are my questions:
1. If indeed this is a balance issue, would using the lunging get-up assist this little horse in finding her balance at the canter?
2. If she resists the side-reins (not likely, given her temperament)what is the best way to handle it. I'm assuming we would simply need to push her forward and ensure that the reins are started loose and tighten up gradually
3. How much is too much for a young horse? I never lunge my own mare for more than 20 minutes, switching direction every 5 minutes or so.
4. If this is the correct way to go, at what point should we lunge her with a rider on her back? Or should we not?
5. Any other words of wisdom???
I'd really like to help my young friend with her horse but I recognize that my experience with young horses is next to nothing and am willing to advise my friend to find someone else to help her if I'm not capable. But I'm looking at this like it would be a great learning experience for both of us and I'm exceptionally fond of the young owner and the little mare, so I certainly don't want to do any harm.
Thanks,
Fran
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Member:
Green007
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 15, 2006 - 10:10 am:
Fran,
What do you mean by bobbing the head at the canter? Horses naturally bob their heads at the canter, unless you are talking about an unsoundness issue. I find the canter is the least effective thing to work on on the longe, and the fastest to ruin because the side reins can teach the horse to go behind the bit at the canter. Trot is the best gait to use when working with side reins on the longe and it is very, very good for horses as it teaches them to accept the contact with the bit from back to front.
As far as introducing to side reins, I always start on the very last hole. There are brands of side reins out there that are very short, and when used on a horse with a long neck, even the longest hole is too short. Please keep that in mind when using the side reins.
If the side reins are the correct length for the horse (the longest hole does little if anything to the horse when it comes to contact, but the shortest hole is very tight), then you can start by using only one side rein at a time. I start by using the outside side rein only, on the longest hole, until the horse is comfortable with it. Then I try both side reins on the longest hole. Over time, you can shorten the side reins but only after the horse is completely comfortable with the longer length.
Good luck and be careful! Too short of side reins too soon can teach a horse to get behind the bit at best and to rear at worst. I would focus on trotting, not cantering. The canter will naturally get better as the horse's muscles get stronger on the longe. 20 minutes is more than enough for any horse.
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Member:
Aannk
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 15, 2006 - 10:17 am:
Fran,
I am by no means an expert, only trained one baby and about 4 older horses, but I agree that lunging without side reins is not productive. Also, lunging should not be used to let off steam, it is a training aid. I would start with them so that when she is standing still they barely contact her mouth. That way, when she walks or trots, her head should elevate naturally and the reins will not touch her. When she is OK with that, adjust them so that there is a slight contact for the walk, then for the trot. Cantering on the lunge is not encouraged at all in some circles, but others say it is fine. I usually do mostly trot on the lunge, but teaching a young horse what canter is and teaching them the voice commands is a good reason to lunge. I would adjust the reins the same lenght for now and make the circle as large as you can. Only ask for a circle at a time, the transition at this stage will be good exercise for her. I would not lunge her in total more than 20 minutes, with no more than a few minutes being canter. I am not sure about the rider during lunging. It can be confusing to a horse who to listen to, the rider or the person lunging, and it may upset her. I have to research that, considering I have a youngster who will be lunged as well!
Oh, for your first question, it does indeed sound like a balance issue. Most horses spend their lives working in poor balance, this is something I constantly work on.
Hope this helped a bit,
Alicia
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Member:
Aannk
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 15, 2006 - 10:18 am:
Oh crud, forgot to mention, use plain leather side reins, not ones with a doughnut or elastic. That doesn't teach a horse to reach for the bit properly.
Alicia
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 15, 2006 - 12:41 pm:
Does the horse bob her head at the canter (lope) when going freely in the arena with no one on her? If she does, this well could be a balance issue with the rider, not the horse.
If you choose to lounge at the canter, make sure your circle is as large as possible. It's very stressful on young legs to go in small circles.
Personally, this sounds like an issue between rider and horse that needs to be worked out under saddle. I hope this rider isn't seening some of the trainers that tie the horse's head down and work them for seemingly forever in that position to "teach" them to stay steady on the bit and not bob. That's the totally wrong way to do it. I would bet this horse being so young, hasn't learned to get her rear end underneath herself and work off her rear. She's probably trailing out behind, which will cause a tendency to be unsteady on the bit. This again is something that is addressed under saddle with the rider using her seat and legs. If you are more knowledgable than the horse's owner, you might check her out on the horse at the different gaits, and then check out the horse "free" at the gaits to see what's going on.
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Member:
Canter
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 15, 2006 - 2:00 pm:
Hi Ladies,
Thanks so much for your input. You've given me a lot to think about and consider, but you've also confirmed some of what I thought would be correct.
Answering a couple of questions that were brought up:
~I haven't seen the horse worked in a few weeks so I can't really answer what the "bobbing" looks like. Also, frankly, since they ride western, I really don't know what "correct" is for that discipline. But, I can assure you that whatever is going on, the mare is not lame as the mother of the young girl has an excellent eye for gait abnormalities (2 older daughters made it to the top nationally in the western world so there's quite a bit of experience in that family)
~Sara, good question about how the horse moves freely vs with a rider...I'll have to look at that. The young rider is quite accomplished and was practically born on a horse, but every horse/rider combo is different and this mare is quite small and to me looks very heavy on the forehand. I know these people wouldn't even consider tying a horses head down to keep it steady.
Another question: Since I ride dressage, I'm used to trot vs. jog, canter vs. lope, if you know what I mean. Is there any chance of me ruining this mare's "westerness" by pushing her forward on the lunge i.e. pushing her to step underneath and use her rear? Or is my ignorance of the western disciplines really showing here just by asking the question?? 
Thanks!
Fran
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Member:
Green007
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 15, 2006 - 2:23 pm:
Fran,
I am a dressage rider too but when my husband told me he wanted our QH to learn western, I attended a couple of QH shows to see what the end result looked like, and to interview western trainers behind the scenes. I think that at the local/pleasure level, english and western are similar in that the horses are usually too slow, above the bit, behind the bit, lacking rhythm, etc.
What I saw at the recognized AQHA show was quite fascinating. The best trainers were out there schooling greenies in a very forward frame with direct reins, putting them on the bit and encouraging them to chew the reins out of the hands "long and low." Then they would get on the more advanced horses who could hold themselves in a frame and they were as balanced as can be, off the forehand, with very slow jog and lope, but definitely balanced.
Not being a western rider, but seeing this, made me believe that green horses are green horses. For best results, you start out pushing the horse in front of your leg, then you teach them to accept contact and half halts, then you teach them to hold themselves together by the weight of your seat and legs alone with minimal contact. The goals are very similar as far as I can tell.
If anyone out there is a western rider, feel free to jump in and correct me!
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Member:
Stina
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 15, 2006 - 2:29 pm:
For a horse to be competitive in the WP arena, it HAS to drive extra deep underneath itself, so pushing for this on the lunge should not a be a problem. A truly talented WP horse does move slowly, but correctly too. With deep long strides, slow legs and in the APHA and AQHA shows, a level topline. The only way to achieve this look is to have the horse driving strong from behind, have the shoulders and back up and their body pretty darn straight. An excellent resource for achieving this look through training exercises, is a video series by Dana Hokana available at www.hokana.com. Much of her techniques are rooted in dressage, but most importantly, the maneuvers are clearly and precisely described allowing the viewer to replicate on their own at home. It is an invaluable source of information for anyone who wants to competitive in WP.
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Member:
Terrilyn
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 15, 2006 - 2:58 pm:
My daughter has begun the long process of teaching her horse the discipline of reining. The vocabulary used by her trainer routinely includes "contact, half halt, collected, rounded, etc." Reining is very much grounded in the principles of dressage. It appears that the mechanics are the same, but the difference that seems most noticeable to me is that western horses go on a much looser rein.
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Member:
Canter
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Posted on Thursday, Feb 16, 2006 - 7:59 am:
Debbie, Stina, Terri: thanks so much. You've confirmed what I thought all along: correct training is correct training, regardless of the discipline (and now I actually know a little bit about the Western world...you can never have too much horse knowledge!)
Thanks again to everyone - I feel much better equipped to help my young friend. I knew I could count on the members of HA!
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