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Discussion on GREAT pony .. BAD pony
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Member:
Dres
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Posted on Monday, Mar 20, 2006 - 10:22 am:
ok HA members I have an interesting problem with a pony I bought for the grand kids..... We have had her a year, she is a POA.. not much personality to speak of.. only now does she nicker when I come into the barn with the feed cart... she is VERY WELL BEHAVED , SUPER ground manners, a baby could pick out her feet.. She is ear shy , but will let you bridle her and fuss with the ears when doing so ... but not for any other time... She would not clip when I got her, but have worked thru that and she is fine now... .. I notice she worries about the farrier , men in general...
Ok riding her on the flat is great... she w / t / canters for the kids and is a confidence builder... she was sold to me , as the young owner wanted to jump and she does not jump... well I thought , fine that should not be a problem... and it hasn't till now...
My grand daughter has joined Pony Club.. what a great organization... and it requires ground poles / jumping / dressage / cross country / games .. just over all fun training for the young rider....
Now the problems... ground poles, EVERYDAY she tries to duck out from them... worries about them .. get her going fine over them , change direction and its starts again... I have been working with her for two months on a lunge line with halter, so she does not get hit in the mouth ( as I thought that might be her problem )... I thought I had her going well and she was more comfortable with them.. WRONG , today my grand daughter had a lesson , the ground poles where put out and the mare reacted like she has never seen them before in her life.. ! ducked out and bolted...
Another issue... we took Pony to a Games clinic... its relay racing , passing patons/ balls / cans / flags.. taking them down a line putting them on an upside down barrel or a yellow cone or bucket or on a pole bending pole .. you get the idea.... this pony would not go near the barrels//cones to save her life... with me leading her or other wise... and it only got worse as the day went... she even figured out that the patton passing meant she would have to go down the line to the barrels and pulled away from the pass off... <smart>
She now sleeps with cones in her stall, and later in the month she will sleep with an upside down barrel....
Ok , thinking caps... I thought it could be a vision issue... BUT when I lead her over poles she walks over them fine / no stumbling etc.. she trail rides beautifully, water crossing / bridges / narrow paths / hills .. just fine.. she is kept in a paddock with trees etc.. she negotiates them fine.. her teeth have been done... my grand daughter is all of 65 pounds, the saddle is a good fit.. snaffle bridle....
Bring on the suggestions... I feel I have tried everything.. and am willing to explore other ideas but A PSYCHIC... ( that was an idea of someone )
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots...
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Monday, Mar 20, 2006 - 10:38 am:
Other than what you have already mentioned, I have only one suggestion:
Where do you feed her? Can you put poles out around her hay so she has to step over them to get to the hay? If she's in a stall, does she have a run you can put poles out in and put hay in the stall and in the run?
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Member:
Green007
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Posted on Monday, Mar 20, 2006 - 10:43 am:
Ann,
Keep doing what you are doing with longing, sacking out, general desensitising of the pony. As long as the pony is good WTC in the arena with kids, it is a very good pony.
However, you do have to soul search. It could be that the pony is at its mental limit and simply cannot do these things with a child rider. If that is the case, it may be time to network with your new pony club posse and find another pony that can do these things. It does not mean you have failed in any way if this pony can't handle these things, it may just be the way the pony is wired.
What I would do: keep doing what you are doing for 2-3 months, see if the pony progresses, all the while keeping your eyes open for any ponies for sale through the pony club. If the pony doesn't progress over the longer haul, lease out the pony on a partial basis to a beginner if the kids (or you!) can't bear to sell the pony. Meanwhile, buy a new pony who is experienced at all of these fun new pony club things. Over time, the grandkids will become attached to and fight over the new pony, and it will be an easy transition to fully lease or sell the first pony to someone who is in need of such a wonderful "starter pony."
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Member:
Dres
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Posted on Monday, Mar 20, 2006 - 11:10 am:
Aileen, yup, she in a paddock with ground poles by her feed, she is fine with em then..
Debbie, you might be right.. this pony might not be able to do these simple tasks.. I have never come across something like this.. Can a pony just be so ''over faced'' by such things that they CAN'T change.. ??? It seems so simple, a barrel , a cone, but to her in a riding situation MONSTERS..
I am not willing to quit yet, as this pony has so much to offer.. she is not spooky, funny that i say that isn't it.. ?? She can be ridden on any kind of day, winds/rain.. with other horses or alone, trail riding in front or behind or in the middle ..
More ideas.?
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
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Member:
Meggles
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Posted on Monday, Mar 20, 2006 - 11:16 am:
Hi Ann
Could there be some history with your little mare that you aren't aware of? She could have had a bad experience jumping and now automatically associates poles with jumping and either fear or pain. Maybe its not the actual objects she's afraid of but what she associates them with.
My mare was a showjumper / team chaser before she came to me. She'd been pushed way beyond her physical and psychological limits to fit in with her owners aspirations. Eventually she found a way of saying 'no' which involved randomly putting people on the deck between cross country fences. I have a photo of her jumping a huge hedge out hunting with her previous owner and she looks really unhappy in the picture. Its actually quite sad to see. She competed very successfully in her early career over 3 foot jumps but was sold because they were pushing her over higher and higher jumps and she was struggling when they got to 4 foot.
Nowadays she will jump in the manege but if I even think about jumping her on grass she will jump the first fence and then two strides out on the other side she will slam on the brakes, put her head between her knees and DrOp a shoulder as if to say 'thats what happens if you make me do it'. Its all designed to make sure I don't carry on. I tried persevering but it made us both miserable so now I stick to what she enjoys and is good at and we have a very happy partnership. If I decide in the future that I want to jump again I will buy another horse that enjoys this kind of work.
If your daughter wants to jump, it may be time to find a new home for your pony where she can be used for what she's best at and comfortable with, otherwise you risk making the pony unhappy and storing up other problems and your daughter could lose her confidence which is hard to regain once its gone.
Good luck, whatever you decide to do!
Sarah
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Member:
Green007
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Posted on Monday, Mar 20, 2006 - 11:26 am:
Ann,
Yes. There are horses out there that just can't deal with certain things. I spent 3 years trying to get a "usually quiet" paint horse to do broomstick polo with a beach ball. After 3 years trying, including putting beach balls in his stall, he was never able to handle even getting close enough to the beach ball for broomstick polo. He did manage to dump me in the process, though.
We had no trouble selling him because in the arena, anyone could ride him. We wanted him to be a foxhunting and games horse, but it was a no go on both fronts (he actually flipped over on top of me once while foxhunting because he was too busy spooking at a small piece of paper blowing lazily in the wind to pay attention to the 3' log that he was supposed to jump two strides away). We were plenty patient - 3 years is a long time! We just lost interest in his "cause."
Anyway, I didn't say give up! I said, set a reasonable time frame that makes sense to you. Maybe you want to do the 3 year time frame, and maybe it will work out in the end. It didn't work out for us and ended up being 3 wasted years that we could have spent having fun and NOT getting dumped and flipped on.
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Member:
Alden
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Posted on Monday, Mar 20, 2006 - 11:42 am:
Ann,
I'd try breaking the task down to very small steps. Like with ground poles, lunge the pony between you and objects at first. Stay far enough away from the object so the pony is comfortable, but close enough she knows it's there.
Try making lines on the ground with flour instead of poles and lunge over that. Once she's going over the lines and the poles lunge with a rider. Maybe set the poles in a "v" or "U" shape to make avoiding a little more difficult.
Sometimes the hardest part of horse training is breaking the task down into tiny steps easy for the horse to understand.
Good day,
Alden
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Member:
Dres
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Posted on Monday, Mar 20, 2006 - 12:30 pm:
Debbie you give sound advice and something for me to think on.. 3 years is definitely too long, I just started the lunging routine, two months.. will start as Alden says to make obstacles for her to walk thru, none threatening .. I am even thinking of putting grain on top of the upside down barrels so that she will be drawn to them..
Grand daughter can do a few dressage shows on her to gain the confidence at shows and to give her the enjoyment of competition.. If all the desensitizing does not work.. late summer we will be looking for a trade or sell deal.. Its just that this pony is wonderful BUT...
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
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Member:
Green007
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Posted on Monday, Mar 20, 2006 - 12:49 pm:
Well, do give her a chance! Just don't drive yourself crazy over it. Most of all, have fun!
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Member:
Lynnea
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Posted on Monday, Mar 20, 2006 - 1:56 pm:
Ann, I was wondering how old this pony is. I have had problems with horses that were trained
improperly and became upset and traumatized by certain things they were forced into doing ..usually without the patience needed to teach them properly. I have found those things stay with them for a very long time, but overall I have been successful in bringing them around, most of the time, by gaining their trust and spending lots of time and patience trying to undo the fear they developed.By time I do mean over 2 or 3 years.It truly involves baby steps and starting over as though the horse or pony was brand new. Your pony has so many wonderful attributes it seems she may be worth your time and effort. I hope so....
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Member:
Dtranch
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Posted on Monday, Mar 20, 2006 - 2:24 pm:
Ditto Alden ...
I recently worked with a clients horse who was absolutely terrified of plastic bags. If one blew by on the trail, he simply exploded. This horse would not just "spook", he was terrified. The owner had been trying for months to desensitize with the bags, but no improvement. I started back with ground work and lunging exercises, getting him to focus on me and his work. I would work on sending exercises passing between me and a barrel, then between the barrel and the round pen, then jumping the barrel, etc. As we progressed on these exercises, I introduced the "dreaded" bag. First, I just laid it on the ground in the center of the round pen where he would see it as we worked. Initially, he was totally preoccupied with the bag. Eventually, as we worked, he would notice the bag less and less. Then I started moving the bag around to different locations as we worked, like on the ground on the other side of the barrel he would pass through, on top of the barrel and so on. Then we would work hard on the "bag" issue, then back to other drills, then back to bag. Finally, the bag became less and less an issue to where I can now wave it around in front of him, in back of him, and in his face. Bottom line, many small steps and repetition and patience and he conquered his fear. I have always believed that good training is a series of small steps put together. Also, when the owner was focussing only on the bag over and over, I think his fear was reinforced. There is no substitute for lunging with a purpose.
DT
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Member:
Liliana5
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Posted on Monday, Mar 20, 2006 - 5:18 pm:
Debbie with all due, I disagree, games are a form of training for pony and rider!
Give a push button to a child and they will never learn. Look at the Olympic riders, the great majority learned on old stubborn mules, young green horses because they love to ride but had no money to buy a bump proof pony! .
Entirely agree with Alden and Dennis!
We had the same problem with Bluebell, 11hh welsh pony with a seven yo. rider. Blue learned that she could buck little one off and not go over trotting poles or anything she did not particularly liked. Someone suggested a more experienced rider just to get her over them once! Blue became a great little one day eventer and great in games! Even in Alice in wonderland with flying bags bright red cards and mushrooms! The only thing we could not get her to forget was the dreaded grooming kit on the left side!
In my humble I would not put the offending cones in the area were she feels safe, this will only make her more nervous wont be able to rest properly and you’ll be opening a whole new can of worms!,
I know that we don’t always have an indoor schooling area with flood lights, but, if we always use the same area to train a horse they soon learn that that is the class room.
I assume that you have measured the length of her stride with the distance of the poles! Also it is not the same to go up the stairs by your self than carrying the shopping is it?! So if she goes well with out the rider but not with a rider I’d say the distance is wrong. Also what colour are the poles, are they painted or natural, can she see them properly.
Trust me on this one I am also a grandma and been there and it works!
Best
L
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Member:
Imogen
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Posted on Tuesday, Mar 21, 2006 - 7:01 am:
Put a tough kid that's a serious rider and not afraid to use a whip up (but isn't a little sadist) and see what happens.
Best,
Imogen
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Member:
Erika
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Posted on Tuesday, Mar 21, 2006 - 4:04 pm:
Yeah, Imogen, I think this pony has the little girl "cowed". Get a good scrappy rider to get the pony going for a while. Sounds like a bit of silliness to me. Ponies can be really good at that sort of thing. Nice of you all to look for other causes first, though.
Just a thought...first work the pony pretty well. Once you get her over a rail, STOP THE LESSON. Or at least get off for a while and let pony relax. Let that be the end of the work for a while and I bet soon she will be looking for the rails!
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Member:
Dres
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Posted on Tuesday, Mar 21, 2006 - 5:15 pm:
Imogen, Erika, In any other situation i would think you two are right on track...but with this pony, i believe it will make matters far worse.. I am guessing that she HAS been over faced with a light trainer and forced with some effort to JUMP.. This, i am guessing will only scare her more.... What i have noticed is that with more time trying the more she becomes fried.. When i do lunge her over the ground poles.. and she goes over without a hitch.. we get lots of rest after and a piece of carrot for reward... NEXT day.. we start from scratch once again.. I don't know.. i would love to get in her little brain to see what was going on ..
Thanks ALL
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots...
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Member:
Tuckern
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Posted on Tuesday, Mar 21, 2006 - 6:47 pm:
Hi Ann,
I wonder, have you tried lunging the pony over the ground poles with your granddaughter on the pony's back?
You be in control of the pony at first, and let your granddaughter just ride, then gradually let her have control.
Or even one step back, can you lunge the pony over the ground poles when she's fully tacked up?
Nicole
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Member:
Erika
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 22, 2006 - 8:20 am:
Great idea, Nicole. If the pony has been overfaced/hit in the mouth over jumps or something similar, it could be fear of the rider over poles rather than the poles themselves. I would still have a strong rider use the pony for a while though, just to remove one more variable if the pony associates the grandchild with evading the poles. And make sure the rider can sit still with calm hands!
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Member:
Erika
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 22, 2006 - 8:23 am:
I forgot to say, Ann, what a beautiful young horse on your profile. Home bred?
Good luck with the pony, I hope you figure it out.
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Member:
Miamoo
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 22, 2006 - 9:33 am:
In my opinion the first step is to figure out why the pony is behaving this way....
scared - desensitize
naughty pony - strong young rider to "convince" the pony that it really is something it wants to do.
stressed out over past experiences - find a different pony and let this one be comfortable doing what it does well. Remember, you are not the first one to try and get this pony to do this. It was sold to you originally because it did not do this kind of thing.
Good Luck!
Ella 
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Member:
Green007
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 22, 2006 - 9:55 am:
What Ella said is exactly what I was trying to say.
Do listen to the other posters, and don't give up (at least not yet), but do remember that some horses really are wired differently. Like children, each horse is an individual, each has its very own likes and dislikes, strengths and weaknesses. Keep trying, but if it doesn't work out, just let her continue to shine where she already shines and find one that enjoys these other things.
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Member:
Dres
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 22, 2006 - 10:26 am:
Thank you ALL, to answer the question, yes i have lunged my grand daughter over the ground poles and low cross rails with halter on, g daughter holding onto mane only.. when we did that i first thought AH HA! this is it.. pony is afraid of being slammed in the face.. but it does not explain just walking over ground poles and being so worried daily..
Yesterday G child came over to ride.... i gave her a WONDERFUL flat lesson, Pony was a saint.. after I told G child that i was looking at another pony this weekend.. She then went out on a ''trail'' ride to cool her pony and came back with eyes swollen....I asked her why, she loves her pony  .. So we sat and talked, and i told her that we can keep the pony, but she will not advance in pony club as we are NOT going to force pony to do something she is just no comfortable doing any more.. she is so good about all else.. that we could finish off this year, go to the mounted meetings but leave after the flat warm up work.. She smiled.. but then asked to see a photo of the pony i was going to look at..
Ok my plan thus far.. i will look at this pony, if it appears to be a good match, will have her take a lesson on it.. then let her decide..
I can't keep two ponies at this point.. i have a foal due mid May , and i WON'T over horse my property..
You ALL have been wonderful in helping me brain storm this situation..
* and yes, the gelding in my profile is home grown.. most of my horses are..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
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Member:
Green007
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 22, 2006 - 10:40 am:
Ann,
If you do find another pony and your g-child is still too sad to let go, yet you don't want to over-horse your property, maybe you can lease the pony out to someone who lives close by, and reserve your g-childrens rights to continue to ride the pony. That gets you out from under bills, but keeps everyones emotions intact.
We leased out my first pony for years before any of us could bear to part with her! I thank my family every day for doing that because I loved that pony. That pony is in her 30s now and still teaching kids to ride.
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