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Discussion on Article on Growth in Horses
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Member:
Erika
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Posted on Monday, Mar 20, 2006 - 7:43 pm:
Sarah Ralston, VMD, PhD, DACVN of Rutgers Universty equine program sent me this interesting website on growth and starting horses.
Check it out.
https://www.equinestudies.org/knowledge_base/ranger.html
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Member:
Ilona
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Posted on Monday, Mar 20, 2006 - 8:52 pm:
Erika, a profound thanx with gratitude for the clarity of this site. I can now give hand-outs when I object to the early starting of horses.!!
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Member:
Ajudson1
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Posted on Tuesday, Mar 21, 2006 - 9:37 am:
Erika,
FANTASTIC ARTICLE!!! Thank you.
I've always felt that horses were rode too young based on similair articles I read years ago. Funny, but you just don't see stuff like this in your horse magazines now do you? Even books by well known horse people start their horses as 2 year olds.
I have 2 coming 4 yr olds and have just sat on them briefly under saddle. One hasn't been ready mentally, and one had a rough beginning so I am not in a hurry with her. I know I can see a world of difference mentally from age 2 to 3 to 4, so I could only imagine what was happening inside these horses with bones, joints and tendons.
I'm glad the article mentioned about "yanking young horses' heads around". I think some clinicians out must be hurting some of the younger horses in their quest for "respect".
This quest to start horses so young is financial of course. And we live in a throw a away society where everyone wants instant gratification. I was once told a 2 yr old horse was the most useless age to sell: too old to be "cute" and not old enough to do anything with. That was an old idea from an old man who grew up in a time before 2 yr olds were in the show ring. He knew to spend those 1st 3-4 yrs doing his ground work; you can teach so much from the ground.
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Member:
Erika
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Posted on Tuesday, Mar 21, 2006 - 12:58 pm:
I do believe that the article is on the conservative side, but it does make you think about things a bit more. I am going to slow down with my coming 3 year old, I think. She looks big and mature so I think she fooled me into thinking she is ready for more.
At least I don't feel as guilty about not getting out and riding her more!
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Member:
Morg1
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Posted on Tuesday, Mar 21, 2006 - 9:04 pm:
That's a great article. Most people around here start riding there horses at 2 and it makes me sick. Last Spring, I saw a very cute 2 year old Paint filly being ridden. I felt that she was small even for a two year old. When I asked what her age was the rider told me that "she's gotta learn sometime." I personally think people start them so young because they aren't as balanced or strong and are less likely to throw you. At least in this filly's case she looked like she could barely stand under her rider let alone ride on muddy trails. Sorry just sharing my frustration.
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Member:
Savage
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Posted on Tuesday, Mar 21, 2006 - 9:42 pm:
Erika, thank you for posting that link  . I think it is a great guideline for so many people out there that want to hop on and ride before it's time.
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Member:
Dove2
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 22, 2006 - 11:19 am:
Then again, there's the other side to the argument:
https://www.pelham-saddlery.com/horse_column/saddle_training.html
I'm not saying that either viewpoint is correct or incorrect. It's always good to get both side of the picture, though. Then think about it, research it, think about it some more, and come to your own conclusion. The final step I try to incorporate: keep an open mind to more/new information and to possibly changing your mind!
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Member:
Green007
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 22, 2006 - 11:58 am:
At the risk of coming across as "throwing stones" at a trainer who I do not know, who is clearly very successful at what he does, and who is probably a really nice guy with an enviable wine cellar and lots of fun and interesting friends, all I have to say is, consider the source.
I took one look at this guy's bio and the number one thing that stuck out in my mind is that this guy is "in it for the game," and he's in it to win and make money. These are exactly the types that would say starting them early is a good thing. If he couldn't start them early and sell them on quickly, his business would probably dry up. Anyone who writes a book called "Making Money With Horses" and goes on to say it is a way of life for him has made his intentions fairly clear, in my humble opinion. But, to each his own!
Bio attached below.
Don Blazer is an author, a teacher, a trainer and a trader. For more than 40 years he's helped thousands of horses and horse owners enjoy the best of relationships based on knowledge, understanding and actions which are mutually beneficial.
The author of eight How-To books on training performance horses and horse health care, he also writes the syndicated column A Horse, Of Course, which is must reading for thousands of fans across the nation.
As a teacher, he's traveled from Alaska to Australia demonstrating training techniques and he's taught a variety of horsemanship courses for seven colleges and universities.
Show horses or race horses, he's trained world class winners at both ends of the spectrum. His show horses have competed at world championship events and his race horses have won both Quarter Horse and Thoroughbred Stake races.
Making Money With Horses is not only the title of one of his books, it is a way of life for him. He began his career as an author, trainer, teacher and trader at 19, and he's still at it-a syndicated column, clinics and lectures, young horses ridden daily, and occasionally he sells a horse.
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Member:
Terrilyn
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 22, 2006 - 12:30 pm:
Ditto, Debbie....I went to his bio, read it, and copied it to paste to this discussion, and you beat me to it! The title of his book is very revealing.
I have enjoyed the articles by Dr. Deb Bennett in Equus for quite a long time and find her writings to be extremely helpful and articulate. And of course, she's a Ph.D....
I read what Mr. Blazer had to say, and he makes some salient points...and recent research (Training your horse's body/Athletic performance research/Effect of early training on jumping technique of horses) hints that we should keep an open mind about these things...
Yet it seems to me that Dr. Deb's graceful presentation of facts, personal experience, and credentials are a lot more compelling...and make much more sense. She's all about the horse. Mr. Blazer seems to be more interested in the business end of things.
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Member:
Christel
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 22, 2006 - 4:34 pm:
Thanks Debbie for the 'other side of story' I so wanted to say something along the same lines but chickened out, gosh I hate to be bashed-lol.
I have a 3 year old that has been under saddle since last March, he did have one month off, last December, then was back at it again. He is a reining horse and there is no way he could make it to the futurity and do well w/o the constant and extensive training he is now getting. I trust my trainer to do what is right for this colt and so far he has not had anything go wrong, but I do keep my fingers crossed.
I would have liked for him to be green broke as a 2 yr old then have 6 months at least off before going back into training, but if one is going to play w/ the 'big boys' one must play their game.
One of my favorite sayings is- moderation in all things-and think it can be applied to this subject as well.
Chris
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Member:
Erika
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 22, 2006 - 5:39 pm:
I remember reading somewhere (Maybe in "Black Beauty"?) that in old days a horse would be broke to drive first, and ridden later. Guess that might be the best of both worlds. If Mr. Blazer is correct that good stress makes a horse stronger in the long run, and Dr. Bennett points out that the spine is the last finished growing and more subject to bad stress; perhaps it makes sense. Of course, in the old days they wouldn't be driving on asphalt roads.
Something else to think about, racehorses carry as little weight as possible, seems kinder than a big ol' cowboy and western saddle on a two year old futurity prospect to me.
I'm glad to hear all these opinions as both my young (coming three year olds) fillies are just being started and I have wondered if I am doing the right thing. I will go ahead and get them backed, but mostly leave them alone for the next year.
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Member:
Morg1
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Posted on Wednesday, Mar 22, 2006 - 7:03 pm:
I understand the other side of the story and I'm glad that someone put it in this discussion. While I do think a year is way too young. I don't see where (if you must) putting a few minutes on a young horse will hurt them, but most people will not go slow. So a young horse is doing well, "most" people (at least people in my area) will use that opportunity to work more, because they don't have the patience to wait for more maturity. What makes me sick is the people that ride a 2 year old all day on grueling muddy trails. (I guess I should have stated that in my earlier post.) While training them might not be harmful if done slowly, taking them for an all day or all weekend ride will most certainly cause damage. Personally, I find that 2 year olds don't have the mental maturity for much training. I feel the training will take less time if I wait and start them when they are more mentally prepared, which also happens when they are more physically prepared to work.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 23, 2006 - 7:24 am:
This is adapted from one of my posts in a 2001 discussion on a article written by Dr. Bennett. Since this time, and as posted in the newsletters, there is continued work that shows the importance of early work shaping the muscoskeletal system for the horses intended work to avoid future injuries. However specific recommendations are not known and still rely on tradition and how one interprets the current information that is available.
I do not see any facts in Dr. Bennett's piece that change my opinion. She is of the opinion that you should not get on a horse till 4 but that is what it is: her opinion. Why has she called it 4 when the last plate in the vertebrae not fuse until 8? She has picked a time that her experience and logic suggest might be very safe. Her numbers on growth plate closure are in agreement with about what I think of them as but it must be said there is a good deal of disagreement about exactly what closure is and when it should be called. It is not an all or none process but a gradual one and not a lot happens that last year. But if we accept Dr. Bennett's numbers as correct the fact is that acute physeal diseases are not seen in the horse past 20 months of age (numerous references but I will put in page 626 of Current Therapy in Equine Medicine 1997) that I am aware of and is typically a disease of foals less than 8 months of age.
There is another side of this argument to be considered: there is little doubt that waiting to start a horse for a specialized rigorous endeavor past a certain age will actually result in more muscoskeletal disease. Immature tissues have a far better ability to remodel and repair in response to exercise. Waiting to a certain age you loose some of the tissues ability to adapt to the regimens of a particular sport.
Exercising young horses has 2 effects: one of tearing down tissue and one of building it back. This is the normal physiological process of growth and strengthening muscoskeletal tissue in response to exercise. If we tear down too much the tissue weakens over time, if we don't tear down enough the tissue does not grow as strong as it might be. But how much work and during what times is still up for conjecture though there is work to suggest waiting till after 2 years of age to train running TB's causes an increase in tendon breakdown.
I know of no evidence that horses that are began lightly and carefully at 3 under saddle are more prone to future problems than those began at 4. I have a TB Stallion who is 27 years old. He was raced hard as a 2 year old and in fact won a Grade 2 stakes (the Ventnor). For two years was raced every 2 to 3 weeks consistently placing in the top 3 of very good company, till he was 4. He quit winning. I think they mentally wore him out looking at the race record. Then he did all kinds of things until I got him as a 10 year old. We have used him over the years for various sporting endeavors but most consistently he was a dressage horse. He has no signs of arthritis or chronic soft tissue lameness. Is he a remarkable horse? Of course he is, he is mine, but if 4 yrs is critical why is he not lame, might not 3 yrs be acceptable? He has a beautiful top line and he rounds up very nicely too.
I will continue to look for evidence that lightly starting horses under saddle at 3 is too young but those who feel different should realize it is a opinion that is not firmly rooted in any fact I am aware of. Recently there has been interest in the large number of vertebral changes and irregularities. We do not know if there are fewer in the horse started at 3 versus that at 4. If the purpose is to prevent every preventable lesion 4 or even 8 years old may be too early too!
Deb Bennett's principles are a often discussed topic. By running a search in the discussion search engine you should be to find them.
DrO
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Member:
Green007
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 23, 2006 - 7:47 am:
I did have to put a "flame suit" on when I wrote what I wrote!
Personally, I think it depends on the horse and somewhere in between these 2 views is the truth. I usually back mine for the first time when they are 3.5 years old, and give them a few months off in the winter before bringing them back into work. My 4 year old QH is doing WTC and basic leg yields, plus cavaletti. All of this is done with a light contact, forward and stretching down to strengthen his back. All workouts are 20 minutes or less, and often include a hack around the field.
It is light work, but does stress his joints and brain a bit. I wouldn't jump him 3' or ask him to do collected dressage movements though! Like Karen says, each horse is different and light work probably does more good than harm. Its the hard riding they cannot take.
PS - while I agree that the lightness of jockeys is a great thing, I have seen too way many broken down 7 year old ex-racehorses that have crumbled under the pressure. Every now and then I find one that is completely sound and sane. I snap those up in a heartbeat if I have the space! They usually have a lot of heart and can handle anything, no matter how early they were started. Some just "feel more pain" than others, no matter how hard or easy the work.
Just my personal opinion, and glad no one flamed me (though I was ready for it)!
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Member:
Aannk
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 23, 2006 - 11:23 am:
Dr.. O.,
I have a coming (June 8) 3 year old. I want to start him around that age, give or take a few months. What is meant by "light work"? Can you give what particular things to avoid and the number of days a week and the amount of time in each gait?
Guinness was backed at 3 and I got on and kept going at 3 and a half. We started him jumping at 4, though nothing above 2 feet till he was 6. He was the soundest horse I ever owned. I can't remember what all I did with him and when, though, as it was about 7 years ago.
Thanks!
Alicia
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Member:
Warwick
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 23, 2006 - 12:35 pm:
I basically start my young warmbloods as Debbie does. Back them in late summer of their third year, then lay them off for the winter and start them back up in the early spring of their fourth year. I find they are then mentally more ready to settle into work and have gained that extra bit of physical maturity. The initial "breaking in" period in their mid-third year simply asks that they move forward with good downward stretching in WTC (although some can't hold the canter at that age so I leave that until later) either in the arena or on the trail. 20 mins max. Nothing else - very simple uncomplicated stuff with no mixed messages. When I get back on them the following spring (usually about a four month break), I find that they have retained the lessons learned from the previous year albeit obviously in an understandably somewhat diminished capacity.
The only exception has been my very big gelding, Warwick, who I didn't back until he was four and then left him until his fifth year to start work as he was just too uncoordinated and busy growing prior to that. Interestingly he seemed to mentally mature a little later than the others as well.
The contrasting points of studies that you raised are very thought-provoking, Dr O. Thank you for the information. This is always such a controversial topic for so many people.
My justification for using the training schedule that I do is that I have produced sound horses, so it works for me. However as in all things (unfortunately wine included  ), the key word is moderation. Forgetting that one little word can easily lead to disaster no matter what camp you reside in.
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Member:
Erika
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 23, 2006 - 1:14 pm:
Dr. Ralston, the vet professor who sent the link to me also thinks Dr. Bennett is quite conservative. Like you, Dr. O, she says take it with a grain of salt.
Apparently, moderation is the key.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Mar 24, 2006 - 7:33 am:
Sues description of early work seems pretty good. Anything that mimics normal behavior and motion in the pasture would be considered light for instance walking trails can be done for hours with very short periods of trotting or canter. Arena and lunge work at a trot and canter are particularly stressful so this should be broken up with less than a total of 15 minutes daily / 3 times a week / with a 3 contiguous day rest weekly. The purpose for the contiguous rest period is to allow remodeling in response to the stresses imposed. All work should be started slowly and the horse monitored for swelling and heat.
DrO
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Member:
Imogen
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 25, 2006 - 3:58 am:
The "traditional" way here in Ireland for sports horses (not TBs, bear in mind flat horses come in as YEARLINGs...)is to break them in the summer of their third year, keep them going until they can attend one or maybe two hunts at the beginning of the season just to get them going forwards, then turn them away for the winter. Or some people turn them away in the autumn but bring them back in time to catch the last couple of hunts at the end of February.
I personally would always take the advice of more experienced horse trainers as to when to start with an individual because both physical and mental maturity are very important in getting it right. Large horses definitely need the extra time!
Imogen
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