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  Discussion on Interesting website
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Member:
Tangoh

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 29, 2006 - 1:31 pm:

I belong to another message board and this site was posted to look at. It gives some interesting views on natural horsemanship and where it's going and some pretty graphic pictures in the horse revolution gallery.

I haven't quite sorted through it yet to form an opinion, but I have one developing.

Comments?

https://www.hauteecole.ru/
Member:
Terrilyn

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 29, 2006 - 2:21 pm:

Zealots. I am never a follower of extremes, whether it is in the horse world or anywhere else.
Member:
Tangoh

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 29, 2006 - 2:24 pm:

I tend to agree with you Terri.
New Member:
Lakotalu

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 29, 2006 - 2:57 pm:

I think it looks like a pretty interesting site. I'm going to check it out more fully when I have time. Thanks for the link, Sherri.
Member:
Boomer

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 29, 2006 - 3:01 pm:

Wow, they were graphic. I think I agree with both of you in the extreme category. Those photo's did tug at my heart strings though. My mother back in the mid 80's went to a TB race and saw one DrOp dead from a heart attack. She's never been to another...but this guy seems on the edge....
Member:
Green007

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 29, 2006 - 3:21 pm:

Although I have always been keen to "listen to the horse" and do my best to train with a gentle touch, two things come to mind when I see this site:

1) These are well oiled salespeople selling circus trick methods to an inexperienced horse public
2) PETA would just love to get a hold of these people. The woman is almost as photogenic as Pamela Lee Anderson!
Member:
Tangoh

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 29, 2006 - 3:38 pm:

Okay, I'm glad I'm not the only one that thought that this guy is a little much.

I think we all do what we can to make our horses healthy and happy but I won't be trading in my Imus Comfort Bit for a string around my horse's neck just yet.
Member:
Green007

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 29, 2006 - 3:49 pm:

Well, if you actually look at the photos of him working the horses, you will see that the only thing he is doing differently than the traditional rider is the neck rope.

I can see many pictures with saddles, where he is using his legs quite strongly on a horse, and other photos where he is even carrying a dressage length stick. The whole concept of training "without any use of artificial aids" isn't exactly the case here, no matter how good this guy is.
Member:
Kathleen

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 29, 2006 - 3:50 pm:

Are you sure this isn't one of PETA's websites? Even if it's not, it's a little (no, a lot) over the top. But.... I would like to see how this guy handles horses and what he can do with them. My guess is that it is beautiful.

Sherri,
I traded my bridle for a string around the neck about 10 years ago and my horse is much happier and more responsive. That's not to say go out and try it, but it is truly an amazing feeling.
Kathleen
Member:
Tangoh

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 29, 2006 - 3:58 pm:

Hi Kathleen,

I do practice a lot of Parelli techniques, the seven games in particular and have the rope halter and the rope hackamore and mecate reins. I really like them for leisurely trail riding, and in a clinic but there are times, like on a cattle drive when I prefer a bit.
Member:
Canter

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 29, 2006 - 4:26 pm:

Yup, a bit over the top, I think. I resent being called a sadist just because I ride my horse with a bit in her mouth. He calls riders parasites? Well, he's sitting on saddled horses backs in many photos...how's that any different than what the rest of us are doing? If you could ask the horses, I'm sure his and ours would all prefer to be happily grazing out in a pasture somewhere, but that's what makes these animals so special - they willingly become our partners (even when we make mistakes). Yes, there's a lot of bad horsemanship out there, but there are also a lot of big-hearted people working with their horses in a humane manner, trying to achieve harmony with their horse...Haute Ecole is nothing new - they are making it sound like they have re-invented it.

OK, off the soap box. I too dislike extemism, regardless of which end of the spectrum it comes from.
Member:
Anta

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 29, 2006 - 4:28 pm:

Hi Sherri,

Having followed this topic, I do feel that I should like to add my feelings on this matter, be them right or wrong. Whilst I am all for natural horsemanship techniques and I am sure that we have all got lots to learn and I am still trying... I would share with you my own personal experiences. As a child, great confidence etc etc, now in my 40's got a beautiful young Lusitano, thought this was the route to go down. 3 years on practically all confidence gone, but coming back, why, listened to people with a vision. I have had to totally reacess why I have horses, I love them, if that means I have to ride out in a martingale, nose band or whatever makes it an enjoyable and safe experience, thats what I will do. I have had to have a wake up call to say, thats great, but we are not all heading for this sort of showmanship or the olympics. Isnt this like the visions we see in magazines, that we should all Look a certain way?????? I am not trying to knock anyone for what may work for them, but the average rider doesnt do this for glory or ribbons, just for the love of their animal and I strongly feel, that for most of us, whilst a dream is totally inachievable, like the size 4 figure. I'd like a website saying, its ok to be normal. To all you size 4's out there, yes I'm envious, just like websites showing Tricks etc.

Best wishes

Anita x
Member:
Terrilyn

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 29, 2006 - 4:31 pm:

I strongly agree with Debbie's comment regarding selling circus tricks to an inexperienced horse public. The number of hours and level of training ability that produce the kind of horse shown on this website is overwhelming....I'm lucky to spend 30 minutes a day with my 3 year old just doing basic desensitizing stuff...these people apparently devote all their waking hours to training. I don't know about most of you, but I have to put in 8 hours a day at the office and then come home and take care of dinner, kids, etc! I think most of us are thrilled to just have horses as a part of our lives (they are the part that keeps us sane). Most horse owners (at least on this site) expend a huge effort to be compassionate, educated owners who do the absolute best we can by our horses with the time and abilities we have.
Member:
Hwood

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 29, 2006 - 4:46 pm:

I just read everything on the "hauteecole" site.
My initial reaction is that Alexander is someone who believes he has found the "only way," and whenever we humans assume that stance, a warning bell should sound, HOWEVER, I know that I agree, to a certain extent, with his assessment of both Pat Parelli and Monty Roberts. I also know that whenever I observe ANY KIND of riding, I am always looking at the horses' eyes and attitudes more than at the riders, and that more often than not, I have seen horses in some kind of confusion and discomfort.
In my heart of hearts, I know that I believe the core of what is being proposed in Alexander Whatever-his-name's teachings, and that with horses, I have always longed for and sought to attain relationships characterized by complete trust, willingness and freedom from painful manipulation. I purposely try to avoid all kinds of equine competition due to the pain and confusion I know I will see on the faces of some of the horses. While Alexander N. strives to ride his horses without bits and bridles, apparently his wife is tied in to the research Dr. Cook does with his bitless bridle, and the N.s recommend it as an alternative to bits. The key is to listen to our horses . . . and they will tell us what works, and every horse is an individual. Very interesting site, Sherri. Thanks for the mental stimulation.
Member:
Tangoh

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 29, 2006 - 5:22 pm:

I find him completely unrealistic where the average horse owner is concerned. I find it interesting that he is allowed to speak highly of NH but then cautions you not to go beyond Level I, so in fact, he is trashing the Parelli program. I'm not a cult follower of Parelli, or of any clinician for that matter. I take what I need from all of them and discard the rest. But, I think it is extremely in poor taste and unprofessional to bash someone else's program in an attempt to bolster your own program as 'the only show in town', all the while referring to the general public as 'parasitic'!! The audacity! He says some very unkind things about Monty Roberts as well, and whether you like Monty Roberts or not, it is unfair to publicly trash someone else's methods, in my opinion.

I always find it interesting that people that get to spend their entire life working with horses, 24/7, think that people like me, have the time to get the same results, not to mention the funds that so many of these programs cost.

If my horse was truly being tortured by his bit, wouldn't he run from me when he saw me coming with his bridle rather than what he does, which is run to me and stick his head in it???? Tortured horse? I don't think so.

Bits are not the device of torture, it is the hands that hold the reins.

Okay...I'll get of my soapbox now.
Member:
Boomer

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 29, 2006 - 6:31 pm:

I'm with Sherri! Everyone wants to be the "top horse" when it comes to training and horse psychology. Take what you can and the rest will follow.
Member:
Jojo15

Posted on Thursday, Mar 30, 2006 - 12:07 am:

i haven't gone thru the whole site yet. but my initial response was really bad translation. Words that could have been chosen differently were not. So i don't know if this would be a reason to reread his comments, but keep in mind this was probably written in russian first, than translated probably by a russian who thinks he knows the english language. And at times this can come off more harsh than it was meant.

I also don't like the fact he is using sometimes VERY old photos to beef up his site. Granted some of this stuff can be true but 30 years ago when it looks like some photos were taken. Alot of regulation has changed over the years regarding horse care.

And there was an article written by parellis wife, infer what you will.

So onto reading a bit more. seems a bit zealous like someone mentioned above. but i wanna see what else he is saying about us parasites...grin.
Member:
Jojo15

Posted on Thursday, Mar 30, 2006 - 12:19 am:

Ok... i didn't have to read too far.. he's trying to sell a book. and videos and all that other nonsense to make YOU a better rider.

Heres a quote that riled me up to no end:


What’s the difference of Haute Ecole from ordinary dressage?

It’s two incomparable things. Ordinary dressage means training and drilling, i.e. developing a certain reflex in response to the painful effect of a spur, bit or whip. Ordinary dressage is an extremely primitive occupation, that doesn’t require great talent or wit. Comparing Haute Ecole and sport dressage is like comparing child’s scribble and a real book.

oh and ego maniac comes to mind... }
Member:
Hwood

Posted on Thursday, Mar 30, 2006 - 12:48 am:

Ego definitely plays a part, but in reading everything on the site (from Linda P., Silke Valentine, Alexander, Lydia, Dr. Cook, and others) I believe that they are all promoting a gentler way in regard for the mental and physical well-being of horses. Of course, if they all believe that the Haute Ecole will help teach people how to partner with horses in the most respectful, most gentle way, then that is the impetus behind trying to sell the book and the film. They believe that the more they can educate other horse people, the better life will be for the horses (and the people, too.)

No one has all the answers. I do believe that there is a lot of cruelty in what we do with horses, though we may not even see it as such, and that as long as we are open to learning all we can to bring out the highest and best in ourselves and in our horses, out of love for both, then we can learn from all the great horsemen and horsewomen whose love for the animal is above desire for fame and recognition. Some of the greatest horsemen I know were soured on competition long ago because of the way we start to push horses in order to vie for the favor of judges and admiration of our peers.

I see a lot of good in what Haute Ecole is promoting. I have a young horse coming to me this summer. He is a bucker. Who knows why? He has had lots of Natural Horsemanship and other training. The information I have read on the hauteecole.com site has prompted me to seriously consider a bitless bridle for this young gelding. Time will tell. I am giving him time to just be a horse for a few months, then will start him back from ground zero and see how it goes. From what I understand, his bucking starts at anything faster than a walk. It may be that he is afraid of the bit . . .??? . . . It will be an interesting experiment.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Mar 30, 2006 - 6:40 am:

Is this guy over the top? Yes, for most of us who love our horses and go to great lengths to provide for them yet find a bit a useful way to communicate with the horse. After all someone could come along and call just being on the horse's back cruel...oh wait...PETA has already done that. But I have known horses that live for their particular intensive sport but on the other hand I couldn't stay on the TB race track because of specific inhumanities that affected me (effected me?). It is a tough call and a slippery slope. In the end we have to listen to what our horses tell us and draw lines. The bit is not a cruel instrument of torture in a good set of hands, in my horse's opinion.

Is he in the right direction though? As many of you have seen me write in the last 2 years I think the concept of finding ways to positively reinforce desired behaviors will improve the horses ability to understand and enjoy a particular endeavor. When I take the time to put down the twitch and pick up the reward bucket I have had some amazing things happen on the ground. I see no reason this should not happen on his back.
DrO
Member:
Tangoh

Posted on Thursday, Mar 30, 2006 - 8:23 am:

The concept of what he is doing and why he is doing it is sound, but his delivery and bedside manner is as horrific as the pictures in the photo gallery.
Member:
Green007

Posted on Thursday, Mar 30, 2006 - 9:56 am:

What Dr. O said, exactly!!!
Member:
Cpacer

Posted on Thursday, Mar 30, 2006 - 11:04 am:

I wonder what the lady meant by saying her horse only respects her as a friend so her husband has to do the more advanced training?

I can appreciate the message they're trying to get across--the more places I go and meet horses and their people, the more sad I get about how many are treated.

These people need to be careful about their approach if they expect to gain following--from the pics it looks like some of their actions contradict what they're preaching. Why would a horse want to expend energy to jump 10-feet in the air...oh cause there's a man standing there with a whip...okay.

Like everyone else has said, take what you want from it, and if it can benefit our relationships with our horses then great. I am intrigued about that bitless bridle though---I guess their gimmick to be gimmickless worked on me!
Member:
Corinne

Posted on Thursday, Mar 30, 2006 - 2:53 pm:

I am suspect because if there is no ulterior motive...ie...trying to promote a product...and Haute Ecole just wanted to educate people on the plight of horses whose riders use bits, or who use the horse in competition, why are people only welcome to their forum if you subscribe to their beliefs?

"You are welcome to the forum if you are not engaged in equine sport, racing, and other humiliating activities. Our forum is not only for discussions. It is virtual School. It is designed for those, who want to follow our principles.
The main rule for the members of our School is to reject the usage of bits, any punishments and abuse of the horse. You must not support racing, jumping, eventing, etc. We want to gather the most advanced horsemen who are ready to change themselves and the surrounding horseworld, who are eager to create the relationships which are mutually interesting and free of any violence"

Perhaps not everyone is invited because they don't want to waste time promoting products to an audience that might not be inclined to buy into them. And might I add that if they were just trying to convey a message, it would be available to everyone so that they could convert the supposed parasites amongst us. LOL.
Member:
Tuckern

Posted on Thursday, Mar 30, 2006 - 4:48 pm:

Well, I signed up for membership to the forum, simply because the curiosity was killing me. At no time during the registration process did they ask if I used a bit on my horse (which I do, by the way), or anything about my training beliefs, for that matter.

And, actually, as I was looking through the forums, I found many people who admit to using bits, for various reasons. Of course, it is explained away as those are people who are "in transition" or who are riding horses that are not their own.

I think, as a whole, it is a good concept, to try to create awareness about the abuse that goes on in equine sports, but their approach and delivery is way over the top, and some of the stuff they teach their horses is impracticable for "backyard" horse owners. Sure, the moves are majestic, and pretty, and very difficult, but when I'm going down the trail, the sagebrush, trees, and jackrabbits just don't care that my horse can do the spanish walk or a piaffe. ;0)

Nicole in New Mexico
Member:
Liliana5

Posted on Thursday, Mar 30, 2006 - 5:12 pm:

Sherri thank you very much for sharing such an interesting site with us. I would love to be able to spend all my time with my horses as I used to do before. As Holly mentions, the best way to know what is happening is to ask your horse, his eyes body language etc. are infallible. It is also true that when you spend 20 hours of the day with your horses, your view is pretty different to the one hour a week person regardless of how much they love their horse.

He looks very familiar to me I am almost certain that he was or is part of The Spanish School of Vienna, which as you know has the most beautiful and best trained Lipizzaners. Also I entirely agree that translations can never have the same feeling as the person who wrote it. Have you ever watched a dubbed movie!

What a great site this is!
Member:
Ajudson1

Posted on Thursday, Mar 30, 2006 - 5:33 pm:

Looked through some of the stuff and pictures. Great concept and I am all for being kind and gentle without harsh aids. But is it just me, or did anyone else think those horses didn't appear really interested or happy with what they were doing?

And do these horses only spend their time indoors training? You can "play" a lot wtih your horses inside an arena all enclosed from the elements, but it's different out in the real world of bears, wolves and lions and tigers o my...(just kidding about the last 2)

I agree with the person who said if it takes a bit, tie down or martigale to keep me safe, so be it. With time and patience a horse can be weaned of all aids if he/she is used to being handled that way.

These folks may be ahead of their time..and may have the horses best interests in mind indeed. Along with padding a few pockets also.
Member:
Liliana5

Posted on Thursday, Mar 30, 2006 - 6:28 pm:

www.spanishridingschool.com Of course I saw them back in 1990 in the UK so Angie maybe yes they are ahead of us.

IMO the horses look calmed and unafraid, This guys are obviously very kin and have done their homework, and if they are making a pretty penny by sharing their knowledge well so is my very much liked and admired Monty Roberts.

And just like Monty it takes a special kind of human to understand and connect with animals. We love our horses and we try our best, some of us have horses just for the pleasure of admiring them, some of us to ride them etc., so I guess the point they are trying to make is that everything evolves, and every day our horses teach us something new if only we have the mind to understand them.

Personally I loved the part that he mentions when Gulliver meets the horses, the message is quite amazing!
Member:
Cpacer

Posted on Thursday, Mar 30, 2006 - 8:27 pm:

I had a chance to see the Lipizzaner Stallions perform this past weekend (they came to Charlotte). It was announced that they never work them for more than 45 minutes a day, however the maneuvers take years of practice and horses don't even attempt some until they're at a certain level of maturity or learning ability.
Member:
Cheryl

Posted on Friday, Mar 31, 2006 - 6:49 am:

Is it possible that a lot of the judgement on this site is due to the cultural difference between Russia and America. Translating even simple phrases is often difficult and can subtly change what was meant. As far as the commercial aspect is concerned, can you name one NH trainer who is putting on free clinics and handing out free videos, books, halters, etc...
Dr. Cooks BB is endorsed by many trainers in the U.S. Jessica Jahiel for one. I've used it for close to 10 years. Absolutely love it - so do my horses. It really isn't possible for people to attempt to simulate the feeling of a bit in the mouth, but it would have to be unpleasant at best.
This isn't meant as criticism - just an idea to consider.
Cheryl
Member:
Tangoh

Posted on Friday, Mar 31, 2006 - 8:18 am:

Hi Cheryl, I don't view your post as critical at all - a good discussion should include a variety of opinions, otherwise what's the point, there's no point in preaching to the converted, so learning only really happens when someone presents other ideas to consider. So, your ideas to consider, as well as others who have posted ideas to consider are taken, by me anyway, with respect and consideration.

I hadn't thought about it, I guess there could be something 'lost' in the translation. And the cultural differences would certainly play a part in the differences in opinions.

I do believe his concept is genuine, anyone who strives for a calmer, gentler more communicative two-way relationship approach to training horses (or horses training us) is great....I guess I just find he makes quite a few contradictory statements about what should be done in comparison to what he actually does, many examples which are cited throughout these posts so I won't regurgitate them again. He makes some pretty unprofessional statements about some very good training programs which I think is unnecessary whether a person is a follower of the Parelli's or Monty Roberts of the world or not.

Maybe, like Terri said many posts ago, his only fault is that he is just over zealous.

I'd like to meet him in person, who knows, I might have a completely different opinion. Like reading a post or an email, they can easily be taken out of context.

But....all that said....I think he's still over the top!

I guess I'm just one 'parasite' that's really enjoying the discussion in this thread.

Cheers.
Member:
Liliana5

Posted on Friday, Mar 31, 2006 - 11:24 am:

This thread has been one of the best food for thought in a while. It certainly got me thinking, and of course googling!

Sooo here is another site you may want to look at I am sure some of you will relate with the "people to avoid" section...https://www.classical-dressage.net/classical_dressage_page6.shtml
Member:
Hwood

Posted on Friday, Mar 31, 2006 - 9:48 pm:

Liliana, thank you for this link. I do admire Sylvia Loch, and I'd really like to see the membership list of trainers . . . Guess I'll have to become a member. One of my favorite Classical riders is Dominique Barbier . . . and I wonder if he is on the good list or the black list . . . LOL . . . Maybe I'll just have to become a member of her site to find out.
Thanks, again.
Member:
Ilona

Posted on Saturday, Apr 1, 2006 - 12:16 pm:

As a psychotherapist I have worked with many Russian immigrants over the years and
what I learned was the drama of their culture. We forget the impact of
communism, poverty, corruption and violence on a culture at large. In order
to have any message heard in such a culture the volume has to be very loud
otherwise it is simply overlooked. The Russian culture as a whole is not
known for being gentle; they are not known over-all for humane approaches.
Remember, human life carried very little value, still does, so animal
welfare is not a priority. It is still generally a culture of force. I am
speaking in generalities on purpose to make a point. This man is trying to
make an impact in a culture where he has to scream to be heard at all. And
to his credit he even got our attention. The other point is much is lost in
translation...for example when Freud was translated into English the word
"Soul" was muted into "Id". The reason being, “Soul” did not sound
sufficiently medical! What a deleterious impact this has had on the field of
mental health for over half a century!! Unless any of us speaks Russian
fluently we are really at the mercy of what might be bad translations. Just
my words of caution when we become so very judgmental. It’s our nature, we
can only respond with what we know...sometimes we just don't know enough.
Member:
Hwood

Posted on Saturday, Apr 1, 2006 - 5:06 pm:

Wow, ilona . . . you make a very interesting point. Thank you for helping me to see through another lense. I don't recall in which of his books he wrote it (it may be in THE GREAT DIVORCE) but C.S. Lewis makes the point that God doesn't use a generic rubric when he judges our progress . . . he takes into consideration the point from which we began . . . Sometimes we look at folks (and horses) and we make judgements because they aren't as far along as we are or as we THINK they should be . . . but we often don't know the origins of their journeys . . . so we don't have any right to judge, except to judge their actions as good (safe) or evil (unsafe) . . .
Thank you.
Member:
Ilona

Posted on Saturday, Apr 1, 2006 - 6:26 pm:

you are very welcome
Member:
Kathleen

Posted on Saturday, Apr 1, 2006 - 7:24 pm:

Ilona,
Good point.
Kathleen
Member:
Liliana5

Posted on Monday, Apr 3, 2006 - 12:44 pm:

You are welcome Holly! It's pretty good also isn't it.

Ilona, thank you for pointing this out, it is so true, translations can completely change the meaning of things! I remember watching a movie with subtitles in Spanish and where in the film they said, there is going to be a black and white ball, the translation said there is a football!
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