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  Discussion on Pelham bits--anybody use them?
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Posted on Sunday, Apr 30, 2000 - 8:41 am:

I was thinking of trying one on my mare, who tends to get very strong at times, esp. when jumping. They are quite popular in England, and used there frequently with an elastic curb, rather than a chain. An acquaintance there suggested a hard rubber Tom Thumb Pelham. I read on an earlier post here that such a bit is considered "severe"--why is that? The woman I contacted in England uses them widely in training and retraining and considers them not severe at all, but stresses they must be used with double reins or the effect is nullified. Does anyone have any commments?

Posted on Sunday, Apr 30, 2000 - 10:27 am:

The Pelham is a combination of a straight bar snaffle and curb in one bit, and has a totally uncompromising action. You need extremely good hands and a totally balanced and independent seat to use it without being really severe.

I know of many horses that started rearing when their riders started using pelhams, to try and get away from the riders' hands.

Posted on Sunday, Apr 30, 2000 - 11:34 am:

Thanks, Alexa. I'll think twice about it. But can you explain to me what effect it has on the horse that makes it so severe? What do you mean by "uncompromising"?

Posted on Sunday, Apr 30, 2000 - 2:17 pm:

By uncompromising, I mean that there is no flexibility in the bit - I always feel that it is just trying to copy the double bridle with the two bits, the thin bridoon and the curb bit, but whereas with the double bridle you can choose to use just one bit, you really cannot do that with the pelham. Even though you have the option to use two reins, where supposedly it can act as either a snaffle or a curb, it actually is difficult to use it with that amount of sensitivity so in actual fact you are combining the effect of both the snaffle and the curb at the same time if you are not very very careful and very accustomed to riding with this bit.

The snaffle part is acting on the corners of the horse's mouth and the curb part is pressing down on to the bars of the mouth, the top of the headpiece is pressing on the poll, and the curb chain tightening in the chin groove. If the bit has a high port, as some of the pelhams do, the top of it will also be brought into contact with the roof of the mouth. That's severe!

When riders put their horses into pelhams because they want a stronger bit, because as you say "my mare gets strong, especially when jumping", they are not accustomed to the bit, they don't ride for weeks on the flat with the bit first, they probably are not used to riding with two reins, but straightaway try jumping and take their normal "hold". The horse has a nasty shock at his mouth being hurt, perhaps stops, very often rears. I really have seen this happen often.

I would rather see the horse that gets strong left in her normal snaffle and rather given lots of exercises - trotting poles, gridwork, etc. - to teach her not to rush, to balance herself. Many horses get strong jumping because they want to get it over and done with - not because they are enjoying it!! Once the horse becomes more confident and balanced, they usually calm down and stop tearing into their jumps. Forgive me if it is out of place to say that, because I don't know why or how your mare gets strong; it is just that a pelham is not one of my favourite bits and I don't like to see a horse start rearing.

Posted on Sunday, Apr 30, 2000 - 6:57 pm:

Hello
I'd just like to add that on top of the rearing a horse may tend to get behind the bit and hollow back to avoid the severity of the bit.
~barbara

Posted on Sunday, Apr 30, 2000 - 8:29 pm:

Thanks, all, very much. Alexa, you explain perfectly what you mean and your hints about helping her jumping make a great deal of sense. I will certainly work on this instead. I took her out hacking with a couple of friends today and had one tough spot when we were galloping and she would NOT stop with the snaffle--I had to pull her up hard several times on one rein and we just about ran into the lead horse at the edge of a rather steep DrOp--so I would like a little more control out in the field, but will not now look for it in a Pelham. I actually hesitate to try any strong bits, as she is quite opinionated about her mouth being pulled on! The rest of the time today she was fine, just that one point when I think she feared being left behind. Well, they are horses after all--

Posted on Monday, May 1, 2000 - 9:27 pm:

In my opinion, you shouldn't necessarily write off a stronger bit, particularly if you are getting run away with! In my book, safety comes first and if your horse is running away, you need to be able to stop. I almost always use a stronger bit for shows and maybe two "levels" stronger for something like hunter pacing where you are travelling at speed. That said, I think I would try a more gradual progression in bits. If you are using a plain snaffle, maybe try a twist and then a corkscrew. However, I wholeheartedly agree with those above about the flatwork; it is paramount. Also, you didn't mention whether you had a trainer -- I personally think that anyone who is jumping needs a person on the ground. Just my two cents -- good luck!

Posted on Monday, May 1, 2000 - 10:37 pm:

Hi Zoe,
I've been reading this thread with interest and have especially enjoyed Alexa's illuminating comments. It seems like everyone here is genuinely supportive and interested in your safety and your mare's well-being---nice to see. That said, I'd like to cast my "vote" with keeping her in her normal snaffle and working on the lightness issues rather than going to a stronger bit. What I've experienced and seen is that horses become "strong" when releases are missed... not as some sort of natural dulling process. I had a really cool experience last year, with a mare I rode in a Mark Rashid clinic. I had only ridden this mare a handful of times before the clinic, and she had come to me with a history of being "dead-mouthed" and generally unresponsive to cues. Previously, she had been ridden in a twisted wire snaffle and had run away with a couple of folks, including a trainer. Well, I don't own a twisted wire because I don't use them, and for some strange reason that seemed like a good idea at the time, I decided to ride her at the clinic in just a web halter with reins snapped on the sides. But it was okay; by the last day, this former "dead-mouthed" mare was giving me the very beginnings of a slide stop, out in a large pasture. She was also backing in this halter with fingertip cues. All this was able to happen because Mark was coaching my releases from the ground, until I felt them myself. I've always thought I had light hands and have been told so occasionally, but this was a real eye-opener. Very humbling! What Mark would say was "if she even feels like she's THINKING about responding, release!" In the past, I would probably have waited for her body to have nearly completed the stop before releasing. When I became tuned into the very slight downward shifts in momentum that occur before a downward transition, suddenly this big, heavy mare became super light. I can't tell you how cool this was, and the former owner was amazed at the difference.
So, FWIW, you might spend some time in an enclosed area trying to feel those shifts--and they can be tiny--and rewarding the shifts rather than the completed stop. You'll be amazed at how quickly you can get a fingertip feel, and after it's solid at the walk, you can move up to the trot and so on, 'til you're blasting across the countryside again. :-)

Best of luck and stay safe.

Amy Coffman
Painted Moon Ranch

Posted on Tuesday, May 2, 2000 - 6:04 am:

I have two "strong" geldings. Toc is strong in that he will throw his shoulder out, or buck and rear, to evade, and he will canter sideways into a jump, because then he can go at his pace and there is nothing I can do about it, other than hope he straightens in time. BUT he has an extremely soft mouth, and will go from full gallop to standstill by listening to my body-weight. I ride him on the flat in a Dick Christian Snaffle and I do show-jumping in it.

When I do cross-country, I ride him in a Portugese snaffle, with a Dick Christian mouthpiece, not because he is strong in his mouth, but because he has a tendency to buck like a demon, and for reasons unknown, he bucks less in this bit. It works on the poll, rather than the mouth.

PG, on the other hand, has a mouth like concrete. Good candidate for a stronger bit, I hear you say. NO, he hates the action of anything other than a snaffle. So I am now riding him in Toc's Dick Christian - milder than his egg-but, and I am going to try him in a bitless bridle (not a hackamore) to see how he goes, because he has developed a "bit fixation" - ie he wants a very heavy contact, and I don't want to give it to him - he must balance himself, not use my hands.


Stronger bits have their uses, I agree, but ONLY if you have tried schooling properly, using the exercises Alexa suggested, and ONLY if safety is a consideration, not just to make the rider's life easier.


Another good exercise to try is walk, halt, back up, halt, walk, etc. Makes them very light and responsive to the lightest aids. Just make sure you don't pull back on the reins when asking the horse to back up.

Posted on Tuesday, May 2, 2000 - 6:29 am:

Thanks, all, this has been a great discussion. I think what I've decided is this really is a training/greenness issue and the thing to do is indeed work her more on the flat and get her more responsive. I particularly liked your advice, Amy. My trainer as well is always yelling at me GIVE, NOW, and I think I really do need to learn to time my gives better. She was absolutely wonderful yesterday, round and soft as butter, and I notice this is definitely when I am more sensitive on the reins. I think when we go out on hacks and cross country the horses just get excited all galloping together--she didn't exactly run away with me the other day so much as get a little panicky wanting to catch up to her buddies, as we were last. As soon as we hit (almost--*G*) the first horse, she slowed down right away. I think her getting strong over jumps is also a factor of nervousness, as when she is calm and confident she rarely rushes. She has only been in proper training for a few months now so I am going to cut her some slack (literally and figuratively) and do more work on myself before I go to a stronger bit.

Many thanks for the supportive discussions.

Zoe

Posted on Tuesday, May 2, 2000 - 6:55 am:

Zoe, I forgot. About the running away with you. Both my boys are ex-racers, and the other day PG (he with the mouth from hell) went into a full-tilt gallop with me. Pulling on his mouth would have had no effect other than to make him go faster. So I relaxed the contact (ie lengthened the reins), sat up, and waited for him to realise that this was actually quite boring. This only works, of course, if the going is good and you have the time, otherwise turning in circles is quite effective, more so, I have found, even than half-halting, which a galloping horse doesn't even feel.

Posted on Tuesday, May 2, 2000 - 1:52 pm:

Hey everyone. I realize that the conversation has pretty much reached its limits, but I just thought I would put my two cents in. I have leased or owned and worked with four horses over the past two years. All four are (were) extremely strong to the jumps and three of the four ran away with me after a jump at a full gallop. I personally don't mind a full gallop, but it would be annoying in the show ring. In every case we went to a lighter bit! We did try (trainer and I) some heavier bits, including the pelham. They would work for about two rides and then back to usual, running bucking, terrified, etc. I was able to find out these things from using a light snaffle, either egg but or rubber "d": 1st horse - Trust Fund - ex racer, just plain terrified of jumping because he was sore in the shoulder (never jumped again)
2nd horse- Hollywood - over jumped as a youngster, (and kinda stupid) the best thing for him was circling after the jumps, so, jump circle, jump circle, etc. This worked!! and he finally stopped running down the lines.
3rd horse - Jack - crazy horse - just a nut bucket but the jump circle thing worked wonders, as did the softer bit.
4th horse - Red - 5 years old and rushed by previous owners into jumping. Same technique jump circle is working wonders AND just releasing like Amy said, as soon as any willingness is felt. This has also done wonders and he is much more relaxed over the jumps! Good Luck and take your time!
Liz

Posted on Tuesday, May 2, 2000 - 4:11 pm:

I had great sucess with an old horse of mine with a jointed pelham. I rode him a jointed eggbutt most of the time and then swapped for the pelham on two reins when I felt he might get excitable. If he was fine I just rode on the top rein and he never noticed the difference, but the curb rein gave me extra control if needed.

Posted on Thursday, May 4, 2000 - 3:07 pm:

Alexa's quite right about the importance of an independent seat and forgiving hands if you are using a strong bit but I think a pelham (especially the less severe vulcanite hard rubber mullen mouthpiece pelhams) can be a huge safety aid if you are doing cross country or hunting sometimes. Far better than those ghastly three ring gag bits which are so popular and which lead to very hard mouths and no steering so unsafe!

I know that all purists consider putting one rein on a pelham (with rounds to both bit loops) the pits, but for people who can't manage two reins and need the control they can be OK if only used in situations where the control is really needed such as hunting. I have seen a lot of horses who were ridden in pelhams showjumping start to stop (refuse) unless they had very good riders - it is hard *never* to accidentally jag the mouth.

I am sure the advice on training in this thread has been right but I also think safety is important and I think pelhams are useful and underrated bits. I know I am probably going over the top but I think you should also remember that different bits are good for different jobs, and that because horses mouths are different shapes, different bits suit different horses.

I'm ashamed to say I have four bits for one horse! Soft rubber mullen for hacking, french link snaffle for dressage, eggbut snaffle for showjumping and vulcanite pelham for cross country. However I have a friend who actually possessed 23 bits... that is definitely gadgetry gone bonkers (she was in Jo'berg, Alexa...).

All the best

Imogen

Posted on Friday, May 5, 2000 - 2:45 am:

The bit you are discussing (monstrous three ring affair) is a Viennese snaffle. I agree that they, like many bits, are simply revolting in the wrong hands, but I don't think they fall into the category of a pelham, they are not unforgiving. The action is not quite the same as a gag - they do not lift the head, but put pressure on the poll to DrOp it, and take the horse off your hands. I use one cross-country, when emergency brakes are essential, and to stop my boy from fly-bucking (which he is known to do at speed). It is definitely NOT a schooling bit, although unfortunately, because it causes a horse to DrOp his head, many people use it for flatwork because they have the feeling of the horse being "on the bit", which it often isn't - it is simply light in your hands.


My Toc has a terribly soft mouth, I chose the Viennese because it does not work on anything other than the poll (like a fili bouche - sp? it "hangs" in the mouth, and does not operate on the bars or palate). For him, it is far kinder that a snaffle in the country, although I use a snaffle for showjumping and dressage.


My biggest aversion to curbs is that if you get left behind (and EVERYONE at some stage does, no matter how experienced you are) or if your horse "pecks" on landing, you are liable to hit him in the mouth, and the curb would then operate. This is VERY punishing, far more so even than with a gag.


At the end of the day, however, there is no substitute for good schooling, and I look forward to the day when Toc and I can safely go cross-country in his Viennese. We are getting there - we can now gallop the flat and come back simply with me using my body. My only fear in the country is that those fences are pretty solid, and I like to know that, if push came to shove, I had the ABS brakes.

Posted on Monday, Dec 17, 2001 - 11:40 pm:

Hey! I had a pony that had an extrely hard mouth and got fast over fences, e and my trainer tryed everything on her(I'm not joking we tried atleast 20 different bits,including a tomb thumb pelham). I found that a D-bit with copper and silver rollers worked best(I dont know what it was called). I think its not going to a stronger bit thats going to slow your mare down but instead changing to a bit she likes more.

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 18, 2001 - 10:38 am:

Just a curiousity comment - what do you all think about jointed kimberwicks? there is a riding school at my barn and they use these on all of the horses In my opinion - they look like they could be very harsh when used with unskilled hands (like many of the 5-12 year olds that I see using them), but on the other hand, maybe a school horse needs something stronger for emergency stops?

any opinions or thoughts?
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