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Discussion on Proper speed regulation
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Member:
Erika
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Posted on Wednesday, May 3, 2006 - 3:43 pm:
Okay, after forty years of riding I am finally humble enough to ask for help. I have always been told I have an excellent seat, and a horse can rarely unseat me--I say this not to brag, but for info--I am not bouncing around in the saddle and bracing with my hands.
No matter how many horses I've had, I always have trouble regulating anything faster than a trot in company. Alone, I can practically get a horse to canter in place, but put me in a group and my horse always wants to go go go! Foxhunting can be a nightmare trying to stay behind the field master when your horse thinks he's really the master's horse!
I've ridden hot horses, lazy horses, always I end up in a tug of war to keep from racing to the front. Or we annoy the horse in front of us by burying nose to tail! I've started to envy friends whose horses won't lead!
What am I doing wrong?
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Member:
Stevens
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Posted on Wednesday, May 3, 2006 - 4:26 pm:
Hi Erika,
I just had a lesson Sunday that reinforced what I knew, but was failing to do: When in doubt, add leg. This was in response to a request from my instructor to do a downward transition and NOT pull on his mouth. I "remembered" to push the horse onto the bit, instead of trying to pull him there. I tend to have a driving seat, so I need to quiet my seat and close my legs to regulate pace; and pretty much prepare to do anything different for that matter. Can it be I've finally gotten the "half-halt" thing????
What are you doing with your legs when trying to regulate pace?
Chris
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Member:
Erika
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Posted on Wednesday, May 3, 2006 - 5:26 pm:
Hmm, Chris, I'm not sure what I'm doing with my legs! I, too, tend to have a driving seat, I am probably leaving my legs out of the equation. When I am alone I try to think about such things, but whenever anyone else departs with speed, my horses alway seem to say "Whoopee! Let's Go!" starting out with such gusto they could be breaking from a starting gate. Then my natural tendency is to grab ahold of the mouth, and having little effect, I think I am training them to go when I take firm hold on them. Rarely do I need leg to get my horses to move out. How do I train myself not to grab, and the horse to respond rather than fight the whole way? Common sense tells me the horse should know that I will release when she responds, but some how I must not be doing that, or getting that message across.
I will try some visualization of what you told me, and tomorrow try it on the horse. Thanks.
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Member:
Stevens
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Posted on Wednesday, May 3, 2006 - 6:29 pm:
I haven't found my version of "common sense" to always coincide with my horse's version  . Just the other day, I would have thought that he'd know my foot was directly under my leg as I was standing next to him but he put his big old size 3 right on top of it anyway as he stepped closer to get a treat!
Your horse isn't going to know that you'll release when she responds unless she's consistently experienced it. You may have to reinforce that message while riding without the crowd for awhile.
Good Luck!
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Member:
Alden
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Posted on Wednesday, May 3, 2006 - 7:09 pm:
Try this Erika, go into an arena or round pen and do one-rein stops. If your horse knows how then refresh is mind. Move your horse out at a walk, at the point you wish to stop sit deep, then pick up one rein, then say whoa. Make sure there is a good distinct pause in between the seat change and rein contact.
Once he will stop his feet with the one rein then you can start doing transitions from other gaits. The idea is to teach him to respond to the seat and reinforce your seat with the rein. Eventually your horse will adjust his speed to your seat and very light contact from one rein.
I'm not a race horse person but I've been told jockeys pull on the mouth to get more speed, I suspect your horse is leaning on your hands causing him to increase speed.
Good day,
Alden (HTG)
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Member:
Erika
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Posted on Thursday, May 4, 2006 - 6:53 am:
Good advice Chris, I think you're right that this young one isn't ready for a crowd yet until I get my stuff together.
Alden, I will try what you say about the one rein stops. Do I use the rail side rein, or either one? And how do you keep the horse from just circling? This particular horse is very light to a turning rein.
I have heard the jocky pull thing, and I think I am guilty of that! It is just so hard to let go and have her shoot ahead in a burst of speed. But I guess I'm not preventing that by what I am doing anyway, huh?
Thanks for the scoops. I'll let you know how things progress.
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Member:
Jojo15
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Posted on Thursday, May 4, 2006 - 9:16 am:
Maybe its as simple as the horses are just picking up on your excitement. or if not excitement but trepidation that this MIGHT happen, and then so it does.
can you do some visualizing before the next time you go out. if you visualize the perfect scenario over and over. when you finally do get on, its almost like your body "remembers" and it might help.
I say all this only because you mention it happens on all different horses, but with the same results. You are a good seat and rider, so the only thing to me that makes sense is your emiting some kind of vibe and the horses are picking up on it.
I know i am an alpha person. being in the back is not what i really want to do. i have problems in the past, because even though i am trying to be a good trail partner, i can't understand why my horse is always rushing to the front. When i finally thought about it this way, she became mellower too. and not always jumping to the front.
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Member:
Green007
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Posted on Thursday, May 4, 2006 - 9:23 am:
Erika,
The best person to explain this one rein stop idea is John Lyons. He explains very well a "trick" I have been using for years and didn't have a name for, which actually disengages the hindquarters a bit until the horse learns to take the half halt and lighten the front end at the same time. He mentions it in almost every magazine and book he has, so have fun finding and reading.
In a nutshell, you are turning the horses head to one side, which keeps him from locking on the reins and leaning/pulling. At the same time, you push the hindquarters over to the side, almost like you are doing a turn on the forehand, only at speed. A horse cannot lock onto a rein this way, it is impossible. When I do it, sometimes I disengage the left side (using both leg and rein on the same side) and sometimes I disengage the right side. Which side you "disengage" depends in part on which way the horse is already crooked and on which way you eventually need to turn while galloping (especially when foxhunting). Like Chris was saying, its legs first, then reins. Sometimes with a quick horse, I will switch sides in rapid succession. Eventually, they do calm down as they realize that this takes a lot more effort than just going along in a straight line with a soft rein.
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Member:
Green007
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Posted on Thursday, May 4, 2006 - 9:38 am:
I should add that once the horse gets the idea, I move to a more traditional "inside leg to outside rein" half halt, but with the same idea where you go sideways for a step or two before going forward. The inside rein is then reserved for relaxing the jaw and eventually, the back. Once the back is relaxed and the horse has nothing to lean against, they stop pulling.
Even with all that, the first half hour on a foxhunt or fast trail ride with a "spicy" horse can be quite an experience!
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Member:
Erika
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Posted on Thursday, May 4, 2006 - 6:17 pm:
Oh boy, JOJ, did you ever hit the nail on the head! I am an Alpha mare myself! Makes sense that I could be giving off that vibe. I like to see the trail/field/jump too, rather than another horse's butt. Definitely something to think about.
Debbie, thanks for the explanation. I will give all these ideas some thought and trial. Great stuff, thanks everyone!
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Member:
Alden
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Posted on Thursday, May 4, 2006 - 6:43 pm:
Erika,
Normally I'd use the inside rein and turn away from the rail. Only a few trouble makers get turned into the rail and it usually gets their attention right away
Yes, in the beginning you'll do some circles. The key is to get the horse to connect your seat change to a speed change. In the beginning it will require some circles but there will be fewer circles after he has his 'light bulb' moment and gets it.
What Debbie describes works well also. The real key here is to get a foundation built away from the crowds. His mind will have 'left the room' as soon as the group of horses take off without the foundation work, and getting it back will be a fight.
A ground exercise might help here also, I call it dwell time. Back him away from you to the end of a lead line and stop him. Then watch where his attention is, as soon as his attention drifts from you back him until you get his attention back. The idea is to build up the time he will stand still and pay attention.
At first he may only last 5 seconds, but set a goal and praise him if he makes it that long. Keep moving the goal until he will stand and watch you for several minutes without moving an ear or his eyes to something else.
I had my oldest mare at a clinic once, all the horses were up on the muscle including her. I started doing this exercise while the clinic guy was talking. Shortly my mare was at the end of the lead line asleep while the others (including the clinic guy's horse) were dancing and fidgeting. I guess he didn't have much sense of humor, didn't talk to me the rest of the day
Good day,
Alden (HTG)
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Member:
Miamoo
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Posted on Friday, May 5, 2006 - 9:44 am:
Often race horses look like they are being pulled on the mouth to get speed but actually they are being held together and supported. By the end of those races the horses are tired and if they were thrown loose they could trip and fall. It only looks like they are being pulled back. This often causes confusion as people who don't understand think they are being pulled back to throw the race.
They key to control is riding your horse between legs and hands. Too many people try to ride with just hands or don't have steady enough hands to push their horse into a frame. It sounds like your horse is getting excited and taking the bit and then it becomes a wrestling match which the 1000 pound one of you will win every time. The exercises such as the one rein stop will help this. You also need to get your horse giving to you with a couple of horses before you go out with a crowd. Remember it is natural for them to see a crowd as running with a herd. From experience hunting, the closer to the front you are the easier it is to control your horse. They don't want to run away forward any more than they want to get behind.
Take Care,
Ella
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Member:
Imogen
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Posted on Saturday, May 6, 2006 - 4:03 am:
Another point I offer from 8 years of riding a similar horse including hunting. The INSTANT the horse offers any relaxation or reduction in speed, you must relax as well, if possible anticipate that moment. Continuing to pull completely confuses the horse.
BTW I have never been able to get that one rein thing to work, it's dangerous with our type of hunting because you end up jumping a stone ditch with the horse half backwards not having seen the obstacle properly... I have however seen a very good showjumping rider use it successfully on my horse to stop her rushing showjumping fences but I think you have to be a very good rider to get it to work.
I do use bridging the reins when about to run over the fieldmaster and I do use a vulcanite pelham with curb chain as a compromise between a not particularly severe bit but one which will allow you to stop and prevents a pulling horse getting into the "I can put my head between my knees and then you can't stop me" saga.
And the legs thing is vital - horses do learn the difference between leg to squeeze into a contact (slow down) and leg meaning "go forward now" - I think it's to do with the combination with your seat that teaches it to them. Hard deep seat and gentle squeezing leg - slow down. Light forward seat and stronger leg - go forward.
Good luck!
Imogen
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Saturday, May 6, 2006 - 7:20 am:
Hi Erika, I agree with Imogen . That is a very important point, You have to soften the reins and relax the instant they slow even the slightest effort. I also have one of those horses( only in competion) Hunter paces etc. He gets so excited it takes soooooooooo many half halts to get his attention. I have done the one rein in emergencies and it does work( he knows it) I will keep in in a circle till his feet stop, not always safe at a speed.but when he is so excited we almost fall as he pays no attention to my warning that it is going to happen. I worry he will get hurt when it happens as we spin in a gallop, but I am more terrified of an out of control horse which fortunatly has not happenned. Some horses get so hot no matter how well trained they are they take a little longer to come back to you in a hunter type situation. But in your case because it happens to all the horses you ride I think you need to soften your contact and doo lots of deep breathing as it seems like you anticipate this thus making it happen. Dont worry I have days I anticipate it and my horse knows it. If you have a willing trail buddy or buddies can you take turns every few minutes changing the leader, it might help you relax thus helping the horse. Just a thought. All the ideas above are great and one of them should work for you, just remember to breath deeply and relax.
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Member:
Erika
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Posted on Saturday, May 6, 2006 - 8:36 am:
Okay, thanks guys. I do see what to do in a normal situation with my trained horses. Please understand that I am not completely out of control. We usually do manage to keep behind whomever we should, but not without a bit of fight. I will try these suggestions.
But can someone walk me through the following situation very slowly so I know how to handle it? Perhaps visualizing it frame by frame, I can do better:
Riding in a group, or behind another horse, everyone starts for a canter. At this point I do know to half halt to warn my horse of the change. Now as the horse in front departs, before I have a chance to signal my horse to go forward, my horse engages her big racehorse butt motor and, despite the half halt, shoots forward, throwing out "yahoo" divots behind! My instinct tells me to grab up the reins and sit deep (oops! but not in that order!), right? But what if there is no come back from the horse? Do I give and take on the reins 'til I get a response, or does any give on my part without first getting a reaction from the horse just teach her to ignore my signals? This young one is very fast "out of the starting gate", so to speak.
Thanks to all of you. I am getting it, but I am still working on visualization to make it second nature.
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Member:
Erika
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Posted on Saturday, May 6, 2006 - 8:44 am:
By the way, the horse that I am talking about know is a youngster. I will take the advice to keep her out of crowds for now, she certainly isn't hunting yet. I will work her alone as much as I can for a while.
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Member:
Ajudson1
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Posted on Saturday, May 6, 2006 - 9:17 am:
I am finding this post very informative as I have an Arab mare that loves to mosey along at a walk, then gets behind and tries to charge up to the horses in front. And at any speed over the walk, she thinks it's a race too.
Some things that may also help: Some horses calm down/slow down when a hand is placed on their withers. I think it may be something ropers do, they place their hand there as the horse stops and then they jump off to tie the calf. We had another mare who would get racy going home, and she knew that a hand on her meant she'd better take it easy, or she'd be doing circles. I would place my hand on her, move it off, sometimes pinch her slightly.
I also do this in the arena: I lean back enough to place my hand on the horses rump. It puts my weight back and she slows down. Actually it freaks my mare out, she goes "what?!?!" and forgets about racing.
These are little "pre signals" basically which may give you and her some time to collect your selfs mentally and physically.
Maybe try some of these tips when alone in a schooling area, along with the great suggestions above. Anything that helps to calm a horse and get attention back on you is helpful.
Good luck!
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Saturday, May 6, 2006 - 5:53 pm:
Erika, after sitting deep breathing out , give and take very quickly while using legs, not slowly as you dont want to reward her unless she listens. This stops her from grabing the bit and pulling,at least thats the idea when she slows you can give more release. I hope that helps. At least that is my method.
Katrina
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Saturday, May 6, 2006 - 6:12 pm:
also I forgot to say when my horse is in this mood on a trail ride. I force my self to give him his head once the horse in front starts cantering then get speed control. He maybe anticipating the take of like my horse. When my horse was young and even now on occassion I find myself ready to stop him before we have even started. It makes my horse worse as he thinks hey she is going to start to slow me down and the horse in front will get ahead. I found it very hard to do in the begginning as he has thrown me, but because I say hey lets go he doesnt get as wound up, then when he wants to pass the horse in front I do the half halts etc etc . He has gotton 100% better doing this, because I try not to make it a big deal. He seems to listen better just because I let him start off on a loose rein. Just what has worked for me when he was younger. Its frustrating I know, us on our own I dont even need a bridle to stop him. so I know how you feel. I wish I could do hunter paces etc on our own not with a team. Then I could do it on a loose rein.
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Member:
Imogen
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Posted on Sunday, May 7, 2006 - 8:48 am:
I would also do pull and release. I would sit like I want a dressage canter, not lean forward even if she is trying to tank off, but I would keep my seat quite light to stave off any impulse the horse might have to buck due to excitement. Don't let the horse put its head down, not only because of bucking but because of the head between the knees tactic some will try.
Definitely do not use a constant pull this just sets up a war between you and the horse.
You say the person in front of you sets off - is this controlled/planned or do they all just start haring off up the field? If it's a controlled ride why not ask to be near the front or ask that people try not to overtake you at high speed, usually the start of the problem.
Let us know how you get on...
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Member:
Erika
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Posted on Monday, May 8, 2006 - 8:34 am:
Angie, that is an interesting observation about the withers. A long time ago I read about giving a horse a "calm down cue". An older horse of mine would jig on the way home. I found that if I rubbed her withers while asking her to walk, she would calm down and hold her gait longer. I now have the fastest walker on the way home, but she won't jig after a little touch on the withers.
I wonder if that will help at faster speeds?
I also read somewhere that it is calming to horses naturally to have their shoulders or withers rubbed. They do it to each other in moments of calm socialization.
Has anyone else found this to help?
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Member:
Hwood
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Posted on Monday, May 8, 2006 - 9:13 am:
Erika, I have tried the wither rub with jiggy horses . . . and I don't know if it calmed the horse down . . . (I think it focused ME on centering and breathing correctly, though ) . . . and I know it put me more forward in my shoulders if I don't make a conscous effort to sit up and back . . . I have used the rub from the ground a lot, and have noticed that some horses appreciate it more than others. I was told or read that mares nuzzle their foals on the withers and that it is a comforting touch for horses. It's great if it works as a "calm and slow" cue. I bet it can be taught to be one.
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Member:
Cpacer
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Posted on Monday, May 8, 2006 - 12:53 pm:
I sometimes have this problem with a particular group I ride with, so during my session with a clinician this weekend I asked how I could work on it, we did this exercise -- he put 3 loose horses in the arena with me and my horse, gave me a rope and said to focus on getting one of the horses moving. As soon as that horse and the others would take off I had to stop my horse with a hindquarter then stay quiet until everyone settled down. At first he wanted to run with the other horses, but after a few times caught on that it was easier to just stop when I said. The next exercise was following the instructor around on his horse while he drug a big ball from a rope and we had to stay 20-feet back. All the loose horses followed the ball too, but as soon as my horse sped up and got closer than 20 feet I asked him to slow in the same fashion as before.
I'm anxious to go try this in the real world since I know how annoyed people get when you hindquarter on the trail, but part of the exercise was also to get my hindquarters done in a smaller space, or having him respond before actually circling.
Anyway, it may be worth trying the same kind of exercise if you're able.
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Member:
Ajudson1
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Posted on Monday, May 8, 2006 - 4:14 pm:
Erika,
I used to say the same about Fancy when she was alive, she was the fastest walker there was. I think Arabs are the worst "jiggers" on the way home, but Fancy knew that a hand on the withers meant slow down or she'd be doing more work and it would take her longer to get home. I'd disengage her hindquarters, or make her do some nice collected backing. It would also work to just vibrate my little fingers on the reins, and add a "NO" if I felt her trying to sneak the jig in. She was darn smart and if I started lolly gagging she'd be jigging again before I noticed.
Interestingly, it was the old cowboy I bought my other Arab from that told me about the withers and it meaning stop, or slow down. He said it was a pre cue that gave them time to react before he got on their mouth. I never did ask him what he meant about getting on their mouth, but this ol' guy can ride like nothing I've ever seen and he's never touching the reins enough to get "on their mouth". I'll ask him to explain more next time I run into him.
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Member:
Erika
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Posted on Monday, May 8, 2006 - 4:27 pm:
Great Angie, I would love to hear more from the old cowboy about not getting "on their mouth.
I ride English, but I often notice that Western riders use a lot less reins and yet they can still get those sliding stops and spins. Maybe I should take some Western lessons
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Monday, May 8, 2006 - 5:11 pm:
Erika, there is nothing like riding a good, true reining horse - in the old cowboy sense of the term, not just "reiners" like you see today at show. It seems like all you do is think and the horse does what you ask. Of course, every little movement means something, so you'd better have a clue and have good balance, or you could wind up sitting on the ground! Much like in French style (and other styles, I'd guess) dressage, the horse is cued a lot not only by the lift of your rein, but by your body position and movement. And, like in dressage, the riders movements are very subtle. Shift your weight a little and pick up a rein ever so slightly and, wham, you've suddenly changed leads, or maybe started spinning! It's a neat feeling. I can ride my old mare without any bridle or halter and she'll do anything she will with a bit in her mouth. Our stallions have been trained that way too, although I wouldn't trust them out on the trail or in mixed company! I would her.
I've got to try this withers stuff. I use scratching on the withers to calm a horse, but have never tried it under saddle.
The same mare (Arab)I can ride sans bridle, learned to single-foot because she wanted to always hurry home and I wouldn't let her jig. The single foot was a compromise!
I think western lessons are a great idea. You can learn a lot by "cross-training."
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Member:
Erika
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Posted on Sunday, May 14, 2006 - 11:26 am:
Hi everybody, been working hard with both my fillies with all of your suggestions. Funny, one gets it immediately, and I can't believe how responsive she is already, only a month under saddle! It's almost as if she reads my mind and reacts before I cue her.
The other is a little more opinionated. Even though she has been working much longer, she still takes a bit more work to get through to her. Much better in the ring, though. She is responding nicely to the seat cue before the rein, and she is getting the one rein stop--most of the time. It helps that she's a little lazy, though and welcomes the stopping! Now if it only holds in company! I will keep her out of crowds for a while longer just to get things a bit more ingrained.
Thanks, all of you smarties, for the good advice!
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