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  Discussion on Training a young colt
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Member:
Sean

Posted on Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 11:49 am:

Hi All,
I've decided to give the training a bash and train my 2yr old pacing colt. I've got experience with moulding and lunging but not much more other than that. Flash is a quite guy well he is at the moment as he's never had to do anything he didn't want to do and feeling a bit down due to his skin. So my questions are, How long should I working at one time working him, 30 mins or is that to long? He currently has rain scald as I had sold him, the person I sold him to was looking after him so I've managed to get him back. I've managed to get rid of quite a bit of the rain scald but just taught I'd mention this encase it effects the amount of time I should spend when training him encase he is uncomfortable with his skin. I'm going to train him for driving a sulky. I've watched some of the guys in my stables training their horses and figer they don't seem to be doing anything I couldn't do myself. I taught I'd give this a bash as I'm sending my boisterous stallion off to be backed and my riding mare has just foaled, so have a bit of time on my hands, My stallion is a pacer as well but he's got so much bigger than I initially taught he would be so going to see how he goes as a riding horse. His the one if anyone remembers was breaking into a canter all the time when I DrOve him. So any hints and tips on training this little fellow would be greatly appreciated as usual.

oh guys thank you for the tips to get rid of the rain scald, I will try the suggested products.
Member:
Erika

Posted on Thursday, May 18, 2006 - 8:45 am:

Hi Sean,
Sounds like you are saying he is still mentally kind of young and scatterbrained?
How do you feel about just basic ground training while he's still young? You know, getting respect and attention rather than specific training. He will probably learn the driving skills faster if he is more in tune with you.
Personally I don't think 30 minutes is too much but it depends on what is happening for those 30 minutes.
I'm sure there are more expert opinions out there on this website. Just my two cents.
Member:
Dtranch

Posted on Thursday, May 18, 2006 - 9:16 am:

Ditto Erika ...
I spend several weeks with basic and advanced ground training with much lunging with a purpose before I even consider working on any advanced or event type training. The learning curve is much better when this basic respect and attention training is done thoroughly. 30 minutes is ideal for this type of work.
dt
Member:
Sean

Posted on Thursday, May 18, 2006 - 9:48 am:

Hi guys
Every two cents is greatly appreciated. Its good to get like minded horse peoples opinion. I will start him off on just lunging for 30 mins and see how we got on from there. I'll let you know how it goes. Thanks guys.
Member:
Canter

Posted on Thursday, May 18, 2006 - 1:13 pm:

Sean, I'm not sure, but I don't think either Erika or Dennis meant for you to lunge your horse for the full 30 minutes of training. 30 minutes is too much time on a lunge line for any horse, in my opinion, but especially for a young horse. You'll want to incorporate the lunging with other ground work. I try not to exceed 20 minutes on a lunge line (and I have a much older horse), changing direction frequently.

Erika & Dennis, I apologize if I'm stepping on your toes - but I posted a question about lunging a young horse earlier this spring and if I remember correctly, everyone recommended a short amount of time.

Fran
Member:
Dtranch

Posted on Thursday, May 18, 2006 - 1:40 pm:

Fran .... you are absolutely correct .. no more than 30 minute sessions to start with. This includes all groundwork and usually only about 10 minutes of lunging versatility drills.
sorry for confusion.
DT
Member:
Erika

Posted on Thursday, May 18, 2006 - 3:13 pm:

Right Fran, total work time, not circling on the lunge the whole time. I'm sure you understood what I meant, Sean.
Member:
Christos

Posted on Thursday, May 18, 2006 - 3:45 pm:

There are many reasons for not lungeing a young horse more than 30 mins, 3 times a week.
When you start a young horse you want to strain it's body and mind into shape, there's no improvement otherwise, but you need to do it in very short sessions, giving it time to recover and remodel.
I prefer not to start a horse with a bit before 36 months of age. There is no advantage in starting earlier, at 5yo you will not see a difference, the horse that started as a 2yo will not be more educated or in better shape. The reason is simple, whatever you teach a 2yo will take half the time if you wait one more year. This way you also have the third winter to perfect ground manners and handling, which is the base on which all further training is built.
You need perfect ground manners before lungeing. The reason is that once they're perfected, ground lessons, leading etc can be used as a break in lungeing, you can always go back to something the horse knows well and you can always close the lesson on a good note.
Again, you had taught ground manners a bit at a time, but now they're solid and you can build on them. What used to be strenuous, may be even frustrating work, is now a break.
After all, lungeing is nothing but leading from a distance, replacing the lead rope with the lunge line.
Only that it is strenuous, now joints and tendons suffer a lot more. Give them time to adapt. 10 min walk-3 min trot-5 min walk-3min trot-10 min walk 3 times a week is not little work for the first month or two.
You will see people trotting their youngsters in 15min bouts non-stop, cantering on the lunge, chasing them with the whip because "if they don't break a good sweat they're not really working" and other such...methods. Instead of doing this, you can take a mallet and hit his knees to harden them right now. The result will be much the same, only faster.
Member:
Sean

Posted on Friday, May 19, 2006 - 5:16 am:

Thank you Christos,This information is great, Can you guys also clarify ground work for me and what should be done outside of lunging and basic behaviour, picking up feet, washing down, standing quietly for grooming and voice commands.

On Lunging I have often had conversations with my girlfriend on the benefits of lunging and how often should we do it. My girlfriends pony has a tendency to be overweight even though all he gets in spring/summer is grass,(Irish grass is very rich) her pony is a well mannered docile guy to be around which has a lot to do with my girlfriends temperament as she herself is a calm natured person. But the pony hates lunging, my girlfriend says it makes her dizzy never mind him but he needs the exercise especially as the summer months come in and the grass gets so rich. We will try the 10mins / 3mins spacing with both my colt and the pony and see how it goes. Thanks a lot guys.
Member:
Sean

Posted on Friday, May 19, 2006 - 5:26 am:

oh guys one other questions, when lunging, do you recommend that you lung with a bit or without?
Member:
Erika

Posted on Friday, May 19, 2006 - 7:04 am:

Sean, you might want to reread what Christos said about lungeing in circles. It really won't teach your horse anything, and your girlfriend is right, it will only make you dizzy!
Some ground work you might consider: Does your horse stop, turn, back, etc. on voice command? A round pen would be more useful for these exercises than a lunge rope so you don't get tangled up. Can you tie him anywhere and have him stand reliably? Does he move away from pressure on his sides in both directions as well as to pressure on the lead rope?
Also, things like walking over tarps, bridges, water, etc. will enforce his "go forward", and trust of you.
Clinton Anderson also likes to make loud noises to desensitize horses to things like whip cracks (sounds like a gun shot). Anything that you might encounter on the road--bikes, trucks, baby carriages should be routine for your colt before he ever encounters them under harness. How about trailer loading?
There are loads of things you can teach him without him ever going in even one full circle around you!
There is a DVD that I picked up a lot of ideas from. I can't remember what it was called, and it was really just for entertainment because they only trained for three days, but it was a DVD with Clinton Anderson, John Lyons' son, and another trainer who all used different methods of training to train three colts in three days. Maybe someone out there knows the name of it. Lots of good ideas, like I said, but don't try to do it in three days!
Member:
Christos

Posted on Friday, May 19, 2006 - 9:01 am:

As Erika says, ground work is simply making a trained dog out of your horse. You want him to lead next to you without really relying on the rope, stop when you stop and go when you go without actual commands, turn figures of eight without touching you, extend or shorten the pace to match yours, staying where you tell him when you DrOp the lead rope, generally willingly accepting whatever you want him to do. This is actually changing his mind from the natural idea of running from pressure to his future career of giving to pressure.
Mind you, this is just my point of view. Many people feel that this is not a horse anymore, that the horse spirit in him is lost.
I prefer to have this class finished early, more or less within the first year. The reason is that this way I set his principles before he shapes them on his own. I consider it finished when we can go downtown for a coffee or shopping in the Sunday market without a lead rope. I know no trick to do this fast. I can not do it in a few days or weeks. But I can do it in a few months. It takes walking with him every afternoon, 2 or 3 hours in weekends, jogging together, swimming together, playing chase in the paddock etc. It is a lot of work, if you consider it work. For me it is fun, recreation, so I do not mind the time it takes.
Then I'll let him grow and mature in a pasture with other horses, barely touching him for a year and a half. This is where we are with my colt right now, at 26 months. You may think that he'll turn wild, that he'll forget everything, but they don't.
In the third winter of his life, at 30months, we start work in hand. This is training to give to specific pressure in a specific way. Until now he had to just stop when you stopped, for instance. Now he has to stop square. Until now he had to just step away from you when you side stepped towards him. Now he needs to yield his forehand or quarters when you apply pressure with your hand respectively. This is also when you teach him that all commands aim at the hind legs. When you teach him to stop, for instance, you touch the hind legs with the whip so they step under. When you ask him to bend towards you, you touch the hind leg on your side so it steps under. When you ask him to go, you touch the hind leg again so he starts with that one first. This creates a habit of stepping under which makes future training a lot easier.
When he gets the general idea of using his hind legs properly, it is time to introduce a cavesson and side reins. This is when you teach him to be straight, or, more accurately, to accept the commands that make him straight. You can start lungeing off the cavesson at this stage to develop some rhythm and balance. The trick here is to aim for quality, not quantity. If the trot is bad or crooked, more trot will not fix it. Correct him, aim for just two correct steps in the beginning. Look at what the hooves are doing, not his head or neck. Strive to explain to him what you want, not to force it out of him. Once he understands that these two steps are in the fashion you wanted, he'll offer 10 of them willingly. Do not aim for any dramatic frame at this stage. No frame at all, I'd say. Just general self carriage and balance is tiring enough, do not make him regret his effort. 3 mins of trying is quite a strain. Walk for 5, letting him relax while reconsidering your approach, try one more time and then quit. If the session was unsuccessful, close it with something he knows well so you both go home somehow satisfied.
Once general straightness and balanced is established, you can start work with a bit. Remember, the bit is not the means to achieve initial balance and self carriage, it is the means to control and modify it. If he is already somehow balanced he should have no problem in learning to take a quiet, confident contact on the bit. You need side reins for that, there is no steady contact without them. At least for the beginning, lunge from the cavesson or the noseband while the side reins are attached to the bit. Do not attach the lunge line to the bit in the beginning.
From that point on, I prefer to ride the horse. After a decent contact is established and the horse is in acceptable balance and well educated, lungeing from the bit will only spoil his mouth and bore him to death, if not damage his legs. He is ready to be exercised now, to build a strong body and mind, and lungeing in endless circles does not really promote that. This is time for mounted work in an arena.
I hope all this explains that lungeing is not a means to burn calories. At the end of a lungeing session the horse must be in the same good spirits as in the beginning, if not better. It is hilarious and very satisfying when you turn them loose after a successful lesson and they show off to their pasture mates with what they've just learned.
Member:
Sean

Posted on Friday, May 19, 2006 - 9:05 am:

Thanks Erika, I will look up on the net for this DVD, sounds very interesting. So far the colt walks in and out trailers no problem as he has been moved about a bit, he stands wherever I tie him and is very trusting for washing and grooming or medical treatments. The yard we are in is very busy and even some building work going on so there is lots of noise and trucks around so his used to that. I will practice the voice commands and take the slowly slowly approach with him.

I have one other question with regards to training, my stallion Bobby is heading off tomorrow to a riding school to be backed, my main concerns with him at the moment aside from the biting which is becoming less and less as I practice the good advise I have received from you guys in recent months. Bobby is a rarer, I know a lot of it is because his stabled in a stud and thinks he has to impress the other stallions around . I feel its just too dangerous. Any advice on preventing this, I only take him out with a bit on now for safety, will horses stop this behaviour once they start it? I have reduced his hard feed when he isn't working to stop this behaviour due to excess energy but this has to stop. My girlfriend will not even hold him on a lead rope anymore and she's well used to horses.
Member:
Christos

Posted on Friday, May 19, 2006 - 9:24 am:

To control the pony's weight you have to control the energy intake or ride him frequently. Lungeing to burn enough calories is harmful.
You can try stalling him for a few hours with hay of poor nutritional value. If you let him starve, he'll probably gobble down twice as much when he goes out again.
If possible, you can fence him in the poor part of the pasture, where other horses have previously grazed the highly nutricious, better leaves.
If no stable or fence is available, the traditional way around here is to tie him to a ground spike, advancing it only a meter a day or so. I do not like this solution, as horses are not at all good with ropes, and they graze to bare dirt destroying the pasture and risking sand colic.
I've heard that a muzzle works well, but I haven't used one so I do not know.
Member:
Ajudson1

Posted on Saturday, May 20, 2006 - 8:23 am:

Christos,

Have you ever considered writing a book on your training methods? I have many books on training and different riding styles, but I don't remember ever reading about useing the wipe to get the horse to stop with his legs under him, or to guide his leg in stepping over first. Must be because it's over my head training!
Member:
Christos

Posted on Saturday, May 20, 2006 - 1:51 pm:

You are very kind, Angie, but I am not such a big trainer to have my own methods. I'm only trying to describe what I have done in the past that worked (or not), but this is far from these being my ideas, developments or "school". It is other people's published work. Unfortunately I can not always recall where I initially heard or read a particular method to refer to it.
The whip thing is standard preparation of a High School prospect, widely used in academic equitation and if my memory does not trick me standard practice with the Lipizzaners of Vienna.
This is not collection, actually it is nothing more than trying to explain to the horse that you want his legs somehow under him at all times. You do not whip the horse, of course, and you don't want to annoy him too much. If he does not understand at halt and you risk destroying immobility, try doing it at walk before introducing it at the halt.
Member:
Sean

Posted on Monday, May 22, 2006 - 5:31 am:

I have taken time to sit down and review your writings Christos, your advice will bring me such great guidance and much needed direction as I begin to train this young lad. Thank you for taking the time to write this out for me.
Member:
Christos

Posted on Monday, May 22, 2006 - 8:36 am:

It is my pleasure, Sean. I wish you and your colt the best fun ever.
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