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  Discussion on Natural horsemanship : backing a young / green horse
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 2, 2000 - 3:42 am:

Hi, all. I attended a clinic over the weekend, from which I learned some good, and some things I disagreed with. Be that as it may, there has been one issue which has always plagued me about naturaly horsemanship, and it reared its head again during the course of this clinic.


Before I get flamed alive, let me just state, for those of you who don't already know, that I heartily approve of any method of horsemanship / training which alleviates, as much as possible, the stress which is caused by domestication of horses. I have read Monty Roberts, some John Lyons, a little Mark Rashid (spelling) and some Tellington-Jones, and all of these authors have some insightful observations and suggestions to assist us in improving the relationship we have with our horses.


BUT (and here is where you may flame me at will) one thing which has always struck me is the desire each of the "natural horsemen" have to back a horse in as short a time space as possible. Monty Roberts has demonstrated that he can have a horse mentally ready to carry a rider in half an hour. Patrick Kaye says fifteen minutes. Now, I agree that the horses are not psychologically stressed by their methods, but what about the physical stress?


Many people, it seems to me, take their horses to these people to be backed, with the idea that they can then ride and train them from their. Whatever happened to the time spent on the ground building up a horse's muscles and joints, to make the job of carrying a rider that much easier.


Now, I am sure that Monty et al would agree that this is important, but my "argument" with them is that this is not stressed by them in their clinics / talks / lectures / books. Is it because they don't want to admit that, with horses, there are no short-cuts - not even kind ones?


Just some food for thought, folks, and I'd really appreciate some input from you all, especially those who have attended some of these clinics.


Tracey

Posted on Wednesday, Aug 2, 2000 - 11:39 am:

Bravo, Tracey!

We began to prepare my warmblood youngster for backing as a 2 year-old. We worked her from the ground, leaned over her and on her while grooming. Settled bareback pads on her back, and held the cinh against her to get her used to the feel. Taught her to move against a fence for mounting, and partially settled weight on her, etc. By the time she was nearly 3, backing was the logical next step. We put the saddle on her back, which got only a brief reaction of humping her back before she sighed and relaxed. (She was on a 12 foot lead which gave her room to move if she wanted to). Then we put a foot in the stirrup and weighted it a few times. No reaction at all. Eventually we settled into the saddle, and she looked over her shoulder briefly as if to say "I wondered when you'd get around to this," then stood quietly. Getting movement was easy because we'd already taught her to ground drive.

Our first few months, we only rode her for 10 minutes or less to allow her to build up her muscles, and then gradually began to increase the length and intensity of the work. Now, 8 months later, she has a beautiful top-line, a willing work ethic, and is doing some jumping and mostly dressage. We're very pleased with her progress.

I, for one, don't understand the big rush to get horses under saddle, when a horse that is carefully managed can perform well into their 20's, but one that is worked too hard, too soon is likely to be arthritic by their early to mid-teens.

Posted on Wednesday, Aug 2, 2000 - 1:21 pm:

Tracey,

It is easy to lump everyone together under "natural."

I've been to Linda's colt starting session and she is very slow. We worked the horses twice a day using TTEAM ground and body work and by the end of the week, most were accepting a person on their back while being led or even with the person steering a little. The horses were all 4 or more and had been living on the range with minimal human contact. (A couple had been exposed to TTEAM a little the prior year.) There was no lunge pen in her work.

My sense of Mark Rashid is that he takes it in small incremental stages, but over a shorter time. He doesn't wear a horse down in a lunge pen, but does allow the horse the space to move. Having watched him work, it is clear he doesn't want the horse to move, but allows it to as it becomes acclimated to the requests by Mark. To watch him work is a very choreographed dance. Some horses move longer than others.

My sense with some of the others (Monty for example) is that they are "showmen" and what they do is for public consumption and entertainment. I tend not to like their approach as well as it seems to depend more on wearing the horse into submission.

These are sometimes fine distinctions, but worth noting.

My own horse was started more classically, with assorted mistakes on my part. After attending a clinic by Mark, I tried a similar choreographed dance with her on my return. Well, she got the point in a moment and parked herself next to me, ready to work. Based on her easy adaptation to "natural" my guess is that there are many roads to Rome.

Now, I tend to judge a technique by if/how it causes a response in the horse and how quickly the horse responds. I also judge it by relative safety to horse and rider, as well as how it physically affects the horse in the long haul.

Regarding the latter point, I think long periods of lunging or round penning are not conducive to good horse health when starting a youngster and I would not even begin until the horse was 3 (minimum).

When you look at all these techniques, horse age, etc. you have to remind yourself that there is a strong financial motivator for the human. The faster a horse is going, the faster it can be turned over for $$$. If the audience is entertained and wowed, they'll come back and tell their friends.

So, there are my thoughts. I like Linda and Mark's approach. I've not seen the others to really judge them adequately, but after reading Monty's book and watching him on TV, tend to think he is overstating his contribution to the world. JMO. LOL.

Posted on Wednesday, Aug 2, 2000 - 1:35 pm:

I haven't attended any clinics in person but have seen a few on TV. I have also read Monty Roberts' book and have John Lyons newsletters almost from the beginning.

We have raised 9 foals over the years and have started most of them. It has been a gradual process much as Gay describes. By the time they are backed they have some confidence in themselves and in us. The one thing not brought up in these clinics or publications so far is the fact that a lot of green horses will behave moderately well the first few times. In fact my trainer said it always seemed so easy. But he had started many young horses and found that by the 4th or 5th time under saddle the real training had to start. By that time the horse could become inventive, evasive, confused, sore, and so on. The misconception provided by so-called natural horsemanship or the endless round-penning is that the horse is trained, or the training is almost finished, when the horse is mounted. It gives a wrong message to novices or people whose experience with horses has been limited to the type of horse that is very easy, or to just having one or two horses and concluding that all are the same. I don't think you can short-cut the training steps outlined by Gay. My trainer used to get back what they called in the old days "30 day wonders" for rehabilatative training which most of us know is a lot harder and more stressful than taking the right amount of time in the first place and building on the horse's confidence, understanding and cooperation.

In connection with this an odd thing happened the other day in my barn that made me wonder about the join-up theory when the horse licks its lips supposedly signifying that it wants to join-up (to avoid the stress of having a rope thrown at it, essentially chasing it). Anyway, black fly season is upon us and I customarily mix a very dilute solution of Repel-X and water into a pressure sprayer. I then spray the stall walls and floor and also the horse. Most of the horses just flinch a little but know what it is. A horse who was not here last summer, what I thought was an experienced old-hand ex-racer, froze in place and started licking his lips like mad. His body was tense, etc. I went slowly with it and he was much relieved when I was done. It occurred to me that join-up is done out of fear, a pleading to stop whatever was being done that escalated tension. I don't think I'd like to train a horse on that basis.

Posted on Wednesday, Aug 2, 2000 - 3:44 pm:

Hi Tracey - I agree that the "norm" should not be to show that you can get your never-backed horse out of the field and be riding in 30 minutes. John Lyons has said that he does that at demos to show the logical steps that are taken. He says that he does not stick to that time frame at home (or didn't used to - doubt he actually has time to do that any more!). He takes as long as he feels is necessary, whether that is 2 hours or 2 months. But, I agree that unless that is explicitly stated by EVERY one of these people at EVERY demo, and stated often, that regular Joe "Horseman" will try to break his colt in 30 minutes because "If John can, I can". Heck, even if it were stated every 5 minutes, "Joe" will still try to do it, just because.

Posted on Wednesday, Aug 2, 2000 - 5:02 pm:

Re lip licking -

This is a calming response in dogs. It usually is "thrown" to another dog or human to suggest, "Please settle down, I'm no threat." I would bet the horses being round penned are throwing it in a similar context.

Dogs have a number of calming signals, outlined by Turid Rugaas from Norway. Besides lip licking, they include yawning, approaching in a round about way as opposed to straight line, looking away, etc.

Turid is a dog trainer from Norway and is quite an interesting sort. She has a small book on calming signals and videos.

What is nice is that I can "throw" a calming signal at my dog when he is worried - lip licking and yawning are both good ones.

Cheers.

Posted on Wednesday, Aug 2, 2000 - 6:21 pm:

I agree with several of the above comments. Basically it isn't fair to lump all "natural" horseman in the same basket. I've seen several "natural" clinicians who didn't even work in a round pen, i.e. Ray Hunt, Lee Smith, Pat Parelli. That doesn't mean they never have, it just isn't their main focus in getting a horse started. I haven't had the opportunity to see Mark Rashid, but I'd love to as he sounds very interesting in his approach.

I myself have a round pen and use it occasionally with my horses, but guess what ... it is made up of two white mesh tapes which are not and never have been electrified. Both of my horses know that it's not hot and they don't hesitate to touch it. If they were petrified of what was being asked of them, they could easily break through the tape. I remember reading once that Tom Dorrance, commonly known as the horses' lawyer, was once asked what kind of round pen was the best. His tongue-in-cheek response was, "chicken wire", and his reasoning was that if you are putting too much pressure on the horse, that kind of fence isn't going to hold it.

I, too, believe that the slower approach is better. The 30 and 15 minute wonders are basically done by the "showmen" of natural horsemanship. I've been to a Ray Hunt colt starting clinic and these colts were prepared and eventually ridden over a period of several days ... not one of them were ridden the first day, nor were they wore down in a round pen.

I've had my younger quarter horse since he was a weanling, and his training was extremely slow ... lots of groundwork, and as a yearling, I even had him saddled with a very light saddle. He wasn't ridden then, but I ponied him with my older horse, and all three of us enjoyed ourselves. It also proved a marvelous way to introduce him to new stimulus with a calm, relaxed mentor by his side. He was mounted and ridden lightly when he was two, and by that time, I'm sure that he, too, wondered what had taken me so long. He has turned out to be a very confident, happy and willing horse.

I think Chris' comment about the rush being attributed in many ways to $$$ is pretty accurate. Many people are not going to want to spend extra bucks and time to have their young horses started slowly, and it also figures into some owners' ability to turn them as a "finished product" more quickly. This, however, is not totally reflective of just some of the "natural" trainers/clinicians ... the world abounds with plenty of the more "traditional" trainers who practice the same rush, only in a less humane way.

I don't buy totally into any one method. All horses are individuals, and you need to be able to communicate and work with that individual. I also tend to agree that many clinic attendees, especially novices, will watch a clinic and think that it's the most wonderful thing they've ever seen and they want to be able to do that, too ... exactly like that. That's only natural, but few stop to realize that most of the clinicians are gifted horsemen and educators who have more experience under their belt than any of us will ever achieve in our lifetime. Unfortunately, you then end up with disappointed people and confused (and potentially problematic) horses. Just a few of my thoughts. Donna

Posted on Thursday, Aug 3, 2000 - 3:53 am:

Re Liplicking : I wonder if a horse, being a prey animal, is going to have the same responses as a dog, a predator?

This story of horses' lip licking is fairly new, is it not, since the Monty Roberts saga began. I certainly had not heard of that before - one looked for a relaxed mouth, a floppy lower lip, showing the horse was calm and happy, with a lowered head and soft eyes.

If the horse was licking its lips, I would have been inclined to worry that it had eaten something strange, or stolen something nice!

Posted on Thursday, Aug 3, 2000 - 6:59 am:

Chris-
Very interesting -the dog licking lips thing! One of my dogs actually licks my childs face to tell him enough! My dogs are old now 12 and 14+. The oldest gets very nervous, now, maybe I'll start yawning and lip licking! :)

I have not done any "real" training with horses but when our pony would be had to catch (only when he knows we're going riding) I tried forcing him away from me instead of catching him (we were in a paddock) with in 2 min he stopped turned toward me and licked his lips-I just walked up to him and put his halter on. I do think he was saying "ok, ok you win-please stop this" I feel this was fine for my old clever guy but would think that there is more to teaching a youngster than just dominating him into submission.
Kim

Posted on Thursday, Aug 3, 2000 - 7:09 am:

Wow! Loads of responses. Thanks, guys.


Gay : I am so glad someone else agrees with me that the longer you take to back your horse, the more benefits both you and your horse will reap later.


Chris : I am also a Rashid fan, and I didn't mean to lump him in with the other "quick starters".


On that note, I know these guys do a good job in that they convert people to the view that you can achieve the same quick results with kindness as with harshness. However, I feel it is also their duty to tell the people who attend their clinics that there is no substitute for time, be it with starting babies or retraining "delinquents"


I also agree that we can all learn from each horseman we meet, both famous ones and local riders, even if all we learn is how not to do something. And, as Donna said, we should all bear in mind that there is more than one way to skin a cat, and that if one person's methods do not work with a particular horse, another person's might and, as long as those methods are kind, there is no right and wrong.


As for the lip-chewing / licking, I think Alexa is right and that we shouldn't equate dogs with horses. Having said that, however, bear in mind that both are "group" animals - horses in herds, dogs in packs, and that you can use this to train both horses and dogs.

If one of my dogs behaves in a way which is inappropriate, I immediately adopt "aggressive" body posture and "oust" the dog from the pack. Only when the dog shows contrition (and has been punished for a suitable length of time - usually 5 minutes) do I allow the dog back "in".


As with horses, the dog will turn its head sideways, and lick, and want to lick my face to show it's sorry. As icky as this is, it's normal pack behaviour, so I allow it. (Thank goodness my horses don't do this).


Keep those comments coming in, it's really interesting.

Posted on Thursday, Aug 3, 2000 - 9:52 am:

Alexa (and Tracey) - I believe the "lip licking/chewing" thing comes from observations not so much that it means a relaxed, calm horse, but that his "thinking" mind is starting to kick in and push his "instinctive" mind out of the way. I have read of studies (heck, can't remember where now, on the 'net somewhere!) that showed that if a horse could activate his jaw by chewing and/or licking, then that meant that a physiological change was occurring and some endorphines were starting to kick in. It was found that a truly frightened or aggressive (or just very alert) horse could not physically chew on anything. That's why, when you see horses out in the field grazing, and something startles them, not only do their head shoot up, but whatever is in their mouth just sits there, sticking out and all. When they start chewing again, usually their head starts to DrOp. That head-down thing is also a sign of relaxation (as are nice floppy loose lips!), which is one of the main reasons JL is so into "yield to pressure" - again, there are some sort of endorphins released when the head/neck DrOps below a certain horizon. Fascinating stuff.

Posted on Thursday, Aug 3, 2000 - 9:56 am:

Kim - the thing you did with your pony really wasn't domination, and is exactly the sort of thing that you can do with a younster. It's common herd behavior to "outcast" a member who's being unruly. Once that member starts the licking/chewing thing, and DrOps his head, that is a sign to the other members that he's sorry for behaving that way and can I please come back to the safety of the group? That "trick" worked great for my youngster when I would try to halter him in the field and all he wanted to do was eat the halter. I very aggressively sent him a way, and we repeated that several times, each time with him coming back to me when I sort of turned sidways to him. On about the 4th time, he held his head perfectly still, and we haven't had a problem with that since.

Posted on Thursday, Jun 6, 2002 - 12:04 pm:

It is wonderful to see Mark Rashid included in the "in trainers" but he is truly a different class.Read his books and you will see the difference. To watch him at clinics is MAGIC!He promotes nothing at his clinics save understanding of the horses. That alone sets him apart.Because of Mark our arab gelding no longer has dragons every where and can live within himself and with us enjoying life!

Posted on Friday, Jun 7, 2002 - 12:32 pm:

I am most familiar with John Lyons and have attended a number of his seminars and a three day Symposium. He always stressed that it takes patience, patience and more patience - and literally thousands of reps of each cue every step of the way to have the horse REALLY trained to reliably respond under all circumstances. You may get an initial response quickly, but that doesn't mean the horse is truly trained. I don't know it the folks took that in, but John DID stress it.

He's also said that he no longer even wants to back a horse in a few hours just because he can. He said he's learned from experience over the years that he doesn't want to present that image to people because they don't always listen to him when he says that just because he can now sit on the horse, that doesn't in any way mean the horse is "finished."

I totally agree with what you say about rushing horses, Tracey. Both my Morgans were not backed until they were coming four. My QH/pony, in contrast, was being ridden when she was a YEARLING! Not by ME, you understand - but she was being ridden when I bought her as a yearling.

I finished my first Morgan myself some 20 years ago - before I ever heard of "natural horsemanship." What I have gotten from the natural way - mainly from John Lyons - is that I will take it MUCH more slowly with the young Morgan I'm working with now.

Just my take on things :)

Suzy and Indy
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