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  Discussion on Training out of a tie-down--experiences wanted
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Member:
Heidim

Posted on Monday, Jun 19, 2006 - 2:29 pm:

I'm starting a new thread based on what we learned from our new trainer about the 18-year-old gaming horse we purchased for my 12-year-old daughter. The gelding was trained to ride with a tie-down. He behaved well the first few months we owned him, even in the arena. That changed the day another horse was running barrels in the same arena. The gelding got all fired up and took off on my daughter, and that is why we consulted with this trainer. The trainer doesn't believe in tie-downs (he convinced us, too) and has suggested that my daughter taken lessons on a different animal to develop better riding skills. In the meantime, my daughter wants to keep the gelding with the idea that she can in time retrain him to soften up, give to the bit, respond to one-rein stops, etc. This trainer has never retrained a reining horse before and has doubts as to how retrainable this horse is at his age. Has anyone had any experience in this area? Aside from poor training, this gelding is an absolute gem: good ground manners, excellent on the trail, great attitude, and sensible. We'd like to work with him if it's possible to do so. I'm especially interested in hearing from folks who have had similar experiences (positive or negative) with similar animals.
Member:
Terrilyn

Posted on Monday, Jun 19, 2006 - 2:51 pm:

Hieid--
One very small but important detail in this post. A barrel horse and a reining horse are very different...reining is about having complete and total control of a horse, who responds willingly and wholeheartedly to whatever he is cued to do in perfect partnership with the rider. Reining is pure poetry in motion. Not that barrel racing isn't... :-)
Member:
Heidim

Posted on Monday, Jun 19, 2006 - 3:37 pm:

An oversight on my part, Terri. Firefly is a former gaming horse, not a reining horse. Thanks for the clarification.
Member:
Terrilyn

Posted on Monday, Jun 19, 2006 - 4:29 pm:

Heidi...I did read your other post and wish you the best. We currently have an 11-yo boarder who is really overhorsed, and it is she who needs the training...the horse is fine, but needs a strong leader. It sounds like your trainer is all about going back to the basics...to gain trust and leadership and get rid of the gadgets.
I wish you the absolute best in working through these issues. Firefly sounds like a grand old gentleman, and to have a horse who inspires confidence on the trail is, in itself, a great thing.
Member:
Christos

Posted on Monday, Jun 19, 2006 - 4:53 pm:

An older horse is easier to train, Heidi. He's been through the ups and down of life, so he knows good when he sees it.
Riding with very low hands and long reins does the trick. Long reins, not loose. A very soft, steady contact is necessary for him to trust it.
If he speeds up, put your hands very low and ask him to lower his head and slow down.
Never catch him hard in the mouth, especially when his head is up. Whenever you catch a tense horse in the mouth he will stiffen like a board, invert his body and go into racing mode.
You do not want to put him in a frame, but you need to drive him enough for him to stretch out and down on to the bit.
Aim for rhythm, elasticity and swing in his movement, working through his back, as opposed to stiffening his body and just moving his legs fast and strong.
A well fitting saddle and perhaps a sheepskin under it make raising his back a lot more comfortable until he builds muscle to take the weight.
Try to avoid cantering for some time, until he can extend and shorten his trot with a low head and no excitement.
If he canters, bring him back slowly, you don't want to scare him and make him tense.
If nobody is confident in riding him on a long rein, longe work with fixed (not elastic) sidereins placed low and long, work well to show him initially what is required of him.

You can measure progress with how his neck fills. He will start building muscle right behind the poll, on the upper part of the neck. You'll see that muscle grow towards you week after week, until it reaches the withers and then his back, under the saddle.

He sounds like a magnificent horse, Heidi, I do not think you will have difficulties in training him. Just show him what you want and give him some time to adapt.
Member:
Heidim

Posted on Monday, Jun 19, 2006 - 6:03 pm:

Thanks, Christos. That is helpful and encouraging. I took a few dressage lessons as a teen, and I can envision what you are describing. Do you think with time that this gelding can go back to gaming without reverting to his old way of doing them? I believe that's what concerns the trainer. My daughter wants to show him in 4-H shows, and gaming seems to suit his competitive nature.
Member:
Leilani

Posted on Monday, Jun 19, 2006 - 6:14 pm:

I recently watched, I believe, the Wrangler Junior Rodeo Finals. Being a former barrel racer, I focused on that event. The young lady who won rode her horse without a tie down. Not something you see much of in the sport of rodeo. Leilani
Member:
Christos

Posted on Monday, Jun 19, 2006 - 7:14 pm:

Yes, Heidi, absolutely so and relatively easily.
Work some rhythm, looseness and balance in him, build his back up and we'll take it from there.
Member:
Heidim

Posted on Monday, Jun 19, 2006 - 7:35 pm:

That is good to hear, Christos. I may take lessons on Firefly to get him started. Then my daughter wouldn't have such a big job on her hand down the road. I will be sure and report back how it goes.

Leilani, nice to hear tie-downs are losing their popularity among gamers. It's become obvious to me that their only contribution is to train vices into horses.

Terri, thanks for the well wishes. My daughter and I are venturing into new territory, and we need all the support we can muster. I hope your young boarder get the help she needs, too.
Member:
Kthorse

Posted on Monday, Jun 19, 2006 - 8:32 pm:

Hi, I dont know if this will help or not.
Christos is exactly right about the relaxing and contact but.
sometimes you need to break it down into smaller pieces to know how to do it yourself. The trainer is great keep that up but that is slow, learning yourself I find is faster
I thought I new everything about training my horses after all I grew up on them on a horse stud. I thought my horse was perfect, but I bought the Clinton anderson tapes called riding with confidence. Most of the stuff in them I new but they explained it in a way I never thought possible. He shows the exersise, then explains every thing that can go wrong and why then he tell you what to do to correct it. Every lesson leads on to the next so your horse finds it all easy. I thought why did I not have this when I was younger instead of learning the hard way. Even though my horse does most of the stuff already I was soooo impressed that I think anyone can train any horse with these exersises.
I just was so impressed that I had to recommend them.
Member:
Heidim

Posted on Tuesday, Jun 20, 2006 - 4:39 am:

Two more questions about this retraining. First, will he run away with me if he gets excited about something and manages to get his head way up (as some people are telling me)? Second, can I trail ride him while working on this? That would be more enjoyable for me, and he seems to enjoy the same.

I will look into the Clinton Anderson videos. I sure do hear good things about them!
Member:
Kthorse

Posted on Tuesday, Jun 20, 2006 - 6:31 am:

That depends on you. I would practice the one rein stop first . Just so you feel safe that you have brakes. I do 90% of my training on the trail so in between exersises we can just go an enjoy the senery its a mind break and reward for my horse. The clinton Anderson Tapes will teach you how to get your horse to instantly DrOp his head when he feels contact instead of throwing it up. Riding with confidence is the series I recomend. The individual tapes are not good because they dont have the steps and they dont tell you all the problems that might happen and why and what to do.
Katrina
Member:
Christos

Posted on Tuesday, Jun 20, 2006 - 7:05 am:

Yeah, sure. He may even grow wings and fly away with you. You've been on trails with him, Heidi, and you say he was wonderful. That has not changed.

But Katrina is right, let's break things in smaller steps (and put all the little steps together into a huge post).

A horse must first be made relaxed, straight and balanced. We say to be made because they don't come like this from nature. They come tense, crooked and on the forehand. They come like this for good reason, it favours flight. But we need not flee from anything anymore on horseback, so modifying these natural traits towards comfort and control is a good idea.

But let's define relaxed, straight and balanced. Relaxed means head down. Straight means even contact. Balanced means tracking up. If we can get the horse to work with his head down, taking an even contact, and with his hind legs stepping up under his body, we're half way to our goals.
We'll use the horse's natural crookedness to achieve all this. When you take the reins on a crooked horse and you turn him gently, you will see that he will turn easily one way and he will
resist to turn the other way. He turns easily let's say to the left, because he does not like to take a contact on the left rein. That is our tool.

Be careful here. Like with any other tool, this can be misused. We never use it to put the horse in a frame. The effect of doing this is the horse DrOpping the contact altogether and overbending, which tightens the back, kills impulsion and prevents the hind legs from stepping under and carrying weight properly. This effect is very difficult to cure. If your aim is to win a beginners class and stop there, this is the way, by all means, do it now. But I have yet to meet a horse or rider whose talent was restricted to this. Why destroy his development and yours for a silly ribbon?

We can use this tool, however, to put the horse's head down. Not his face on the vertical, just his head down. Let's start with a tense horse, his head up. We take the reins evenly. In our example, the right rein will be tight, the left almost hanging loose. We put our hands low, very low. The horse will resist by increasing the tension on the right rein. The moment he starts doing this, we touch momentarily the left rein while holding the tense right rein steady. Just a firm little touch, no pull. He will do his trick and try to DrOp the contact on the left. By doing so, he will give the right rein loose. His poll will relax. So suddenly that you'll almost hear it snap loose. The moment he relaxes his poll to avoid the left contact, give him rein to lower his head. Holding the reins tight when he relaxes his poll will cause him to come behind the vertical, to overbend. Don't do this. Trick him to relax his poll, then give him rein to stretch.

Stretching out is very beneficial. It relaxes the horse so he can develop swing, use of his back in his movement. It also makes him straight. He can't be crooked and stretched at the same time. Being stretched out, he can be taught to trust a healthy, even contact. You will observe that when he is stretched and you try to take an even contact, he will bring his head up to become crooked again. Don't push it that far. He is not ready yet. Put his head down again, take very little contact, then ask for more swing in his action so he stretches down to it.

Flex him and turn him with his head down. Extend and shorten the gait with his head down. Insist that he stays long and low.
Have an observer watch you and tell you how he is going, so his face never comes behind the vertical and his hind legs step well under him. The hind hooves should, ideally, land in the hoofprints of the front ones. A hoof length or so behind is not bad for a start, but don't let him drag his hind feet behind too much.

Once his head is down, start building a good, light, even contact. Wear gloves for this. If he pulls, and he will, just to try this new contact thing, you must not give. You don't pull back, but you don't give to a pull. Unfortunately, many people do not understand how the lack of gloves can destroy their position in the saddle and teach the horse to pull. They lean instinctively forward to protect their hands from being skinned when the horse pulls, destroying their position, often being pulled right out of the saddle and, of course, teaching the horse to pull. Don't do this. Wear gloves, sit deep and take that pull. If you don't give, he'll knock it off soon. This is another benefit of building the contact when long and low. When he pulls to test it, he can't pull far because he's already stretched. And you can hold that pull, so he gets no relief and he abandons the idea.

Once this initial contact is established, start asking for more engagement of the hindquarters. Hold the contact steady and increase swing and impulsion. His hind legs will overtrack more and his head will come a bit higher. Follow his raising head by shortening the reins. Do not lift it with the reins. The reins can only catch and control what your legs produce. Otherwise you're just pulling him for no reason. Only take as much as he gives. Ask for more engagement only up to the point where he starts to become crooked and the contact starts deteriorating. And for very few steps in the beginning. Engage his hind legs for five steps, then let him stretch for ten and so on. Do not ask for more if he's not straight and balanced in these five steps. More is quantity, you want quality.

I'd suggest you work with these in an arena first. Learn how to put him in a relaxed state, regain your confidence with him, then, of course, you can take him to any trail or event you want.
Working in a small arena will help you relax too, knowing that he has no space to gallop. Ignore all these who say that he'll kill you, that he's a monster and you and your daughter are invalids. To me, he sounds like a wonderful horse with thinking riders who want to improve, a recipe for success beyond doubt!
Member:
Christos

Posted on Tuesday, Jun 20, 2006 - 7:26 am:

A few more notes, Heidi :

We do this work in rising trot only. His back will take some time to develop the muscles necessary to support sitting trot.

Canter in light seat (off his back) if he offers it, but don't ask for it until you get the hang of things in trot. A weak back can not support a slow canter with the rider sitting. If you sit heavily in canter, he'll run from the discomfort and he'll be difficult to stop.

Do not work at all in walk. Walk is to rest. Always walk on a loose rein.

In the beginning he will not stretch completely. His back is not strong enough to arch it and take your full weight. Be patient, be balanced, be sympathetic. He feels it and he appreciates it, be sure of it.
Member:
Heidim

Posted on Tuesday, Jun 20, 2006 - 9:32 am:

That is much clearer, Christos! I remember doing some of what you say in those by-gone dressage classes, and it makes sense. Thanks for taking the time to explain. I feel so much more confident. This may all work out after all.
Member:
Cpacer

Posted on Tuesday, Jun 20, 2006 - 11:27 am:

I have a question about the crooked part--are horses naturally inclined to lean left or right, like being right or left-handed or is it always our doing?

My horse and I are both awkward on the right and was told he's awkward because I'm awkward, which is easy for me to believe. But could it be that he's just naturally more protective on a particular side? Maybe he did it to me ?
Member:
Christos

Posted on Tuesday, Jun 20, 2006 - 12:35 pm:

Crookedness is natural, cp, in horses and humans alike. It is nobody's fault.
More often than not, a horse will be naturally crooked to the left and a rider to the right, ie the horse will hollow his left side and the rider his right side.
Because this is somehow cancelling each other's crookedness, it feels comfortable to both horse and rider and it is difficult to realise and correct.
It is very apparent in the canter. Most riders will shift to the left in the saddle, with hardly any weight on the right seatbone, the left heel will sink and the right one will rise, the left shoulder will rise and the right will fall down and back.
Try doing this while sitting in your chair, you will see how easy it is to lift the right seatbone and hollow your right side and how difficult it is to do the opposite.
The rider hollowing his right side serves the horse's crookedness to the left very well. He sits more on the left seatbone, the left leg becomes stronger and amplifies the horse's left bend, the left hand becomes stronger and feels powerful against the hollow left side of the mouth. Turning left becomes so easy !
Paying attention to the weight in your seatbones and your balance is all it takes to correct this.
Exercise by riding right turns on your right seatbone and with your right leg only. Leg yield to the left and shoulder-in on the right rein are good exercises.
Member:
Imogen

Posted on Saturday, Jun 24, 2006 - 4:23 am:

What absolutely excellent posts, Christos! I am looking forward to the Christos Axis tapes in European video format so that we won't need expensive Clinton Anderson reformatted ones...

By the way North American friends what IS a tie down? Is it like a martingale?

Best wishes

Imogen
Member:
Ajudson1

Posted on Saturday, Jun 24, 2006 - 9:47 am:

A tie down consists of a head piece that goes over the poll, and a tearDrOp shape over the nose. Then it is attached to a piece that goes down between the front legs to the girth/cinch. Also called a standing martingale. A running martingale has the strap coming up from between the front legs and it splits into 2 pieces with each strap having a ring on it that the reins go through then.

I am sure some one will correct me if I am wrong here, but I think English riders call the standing martingale a martingale, and Western riders call it a tie down. English riders usually have a soft leather nose piece I think, and it's the western riders that have the tearDrOp type, which is sometimes plastic covered cable...ouch, huh?
Member:
Djws

Posted on Saturday, Jun 24, 2006 - 11:03 pm:

Christos-

Each time I read your posts, I remain impressed. Awed, actually.

Candidly, I don't always understand (terms, etc.) or relate to every topic (dressage, etc.)
since I am "green" to the horse world of today. Your words/concepts spurn me towards horse subjects that I never anticipated wanting to imbibe!

I only wish that I could find (and afford) someone with your knowledge to be my personal riding instructor-LOL!

I have to be content (at this time in my life) to take it one day at a time.

I strive to be the best that I can be at any endeavor. I am enjoying this new feat and desire to do what I can, correctly.

Meanwhile, I admire your mentoring and ability to share with such clarity and conviction.

There are SO many exceptionally bright and, (obviously) skilled people on this site.

As always, I am sincerely grateful to ALL of you.
Member:
Heidim

Posted on Sunday, Jun 25, 2006 - 10:04 pm:

DJ, can I ever relate. I joined this site when I was anticipating the arrival of a first foal. Now, thanks to what I've learned here, I'm taking natural horsemanship riding lessons with my daughter--and here I've been trail riding for over 25 years. So much has changed since I got my first horse. I figure if I pick up even half of what members impart here about riding, I'll be doing wildly better than before. One change I've noticed is how much more I enjoy my horses for their individuality, and how much more they seem to enjoy me. One of the best bits of advice I've received on this site? To work with your horse in the ring, so you will enjoy them more on the trail. How true that is! Best of luck on gleaning what you can from the site. Know that you're not the only one here who feels like a newbie and who greatly appreciates the knowledge shared here.

As for you, Christos, another HA member in a previous post encouraged you to write a book. I hope you know that your humble response only stoked our fires. Your understanding of horses is incredible. What stands out even more is your ability to clearly communicate those ideas in writing. I am a professional writer as well as an amateur rider. I would love nothing more than to read your insights on the printed page or even, as Imogen suggests, on tape. Please consider expanding your readership. You could really make a difference in the lives of riders and their mounts.
Member:
Christos

Posted on Monday, Jun 26, 2006 - 8:11 am:

You are really too kind.
But I seriously doubt that a book would be of better use than this site.
We can discuss things here in great detail for every particular situation, clarify mistakes and misconceptions almost instantly, have many people with great experience comment daily on every point of view and have practically instant updates on new methods and discoveries.
Why would you want a book which we ourselves will surely render outdated within a year or so?
Member:
Heidim

Posted on Monday, Jun 26, 2006 - 9:54 am:

What a great comeback! And a well thought-out one, I might add. Okay, you're off the hook on the book and maybe the tape, too. In the meantime, we'll enjoy all that you have to offer here. We really are fortunate to have you.
Member:
Djws

Posted on Monday, Jun 26, 2006 - 2:15 pm:

Spoken like a true, humble gentleman.

I second Heidi's comments.
Member:
Banthony

Posted on Monday, Jun 26, 2006 - 3:18 pm:

I have to say I hate martingales of any kind. I was taught by a Colonel in the Air Force that learned dressage in Germany. His view was that martingales were an excuse to hide an under trained horse and a bad rider's hands.

I give lessons to the woman that owns the barn where I board my horse. I taught years ago and rode dressage when I was younger. This woman has a 17.1 Oldenburg that is 8 this year. He is still not mature physically or mentally and the woman is an intermediate rider - so I take it very slowly with both of them. The oldenburg is just starting to be round and move in a frame. Something I do not have him do for long periods of time because he is still building the muscles it takes to do this.

My bright idea was for her to take a lesson from a "professional" up the street. Her jumps are much better than ours and I thought that the change might be good for both of them.

The instructor told her she had bad hands (which she sometimes does, but it comes from a weak leg which we have been working on - the instructor never said a word about her heals being up or her leg.) The instructor immediately put a martingale on the horse and had her do a lot of sitting trot. ???? Why would you do this to someone who doesn't have great hands at a posting trot? She worked the two of them for almost an hour and a half trying to get what she wanted out of them.

I couldn't believe it when I heard the description. Needless to say my student never went back. A lesson to us both.
Member:
Heidim

Posted on Monday, Jun 26, 2006 - 4:11 pm:

Getting back to the subject of the post, Christos, can you explain what you mean by a "frame." Also, how long can one do these exercises at a trot? My daughter was able to get Firefly to relax and DrOp his head. She let up on the reins as soon as he responded correctly, and he seems to be catching on quickly and willingly. She repeated his several times and ended on a good note with him today. My concern is that all this muscle stretching could make a horse sore, couldn't it? Isn't this much like a beginning gymnast stretching her thigh muscles to master the splits? Or am I empathizing incorrectly?
Member:
Christos

Posted on Monday, Jun 26, 2006 - 5:38 pm:

You can do this as much as you want Heidi, don't worry. He will not be sore. This is more relaxing his muscles than stretching into a split.

Let him settle in a good rhythm and keep it for a while, 5 to 10 minutes. You want him to learn that this is his tempo, the base, where everything starts. He needs to develop elasticity and power in this tempo before moving to anything else, because this is his foundation.
Three 10 minutes trots with 5 minutes walks in between and 15 minute walks on either end is a good workout. Don't work him more than that for a couple of weeks. Even this may be too intensive in the beginning. 5 minute trots and working him twice a day may be better. Remember, you are looking for quality in his movement.
Watch his way of moving, where his hooves land. When he gets tired or bored he will not trot correctly. Stop and walk before his trot falls apart.

Putting a horse in a frame means pressing him with the spur or strong leg against an unyielding hand or a strong bit. It creates a false impression of submission and elegance and it is very bad for a horse's body and mind. It kills the horse's spirit, it's power and ability to move. Many people are afraid of these horsey qualities. Rightfully so, a horse's power is no joke. But a thoughtful rider will learn to control, accommodate and guide this power and instead of restricting it develop it even further, into monstrous ability and willing cooperation, into a dance which the ones who resort to harsh methods will never even dream of dancing.

PS: Please, do not forget to congratulate your daughter on a job well done. We all know how difficult it is to get back up on the horse that scared you and work things out. Strong girl !
Member:
Heidim

Posted on Tuesday, Jun 27, 2006 - 8:31 am:

That helps quite a bit. Everything went so well yesterday that I want to be sure we keep in a positive direction. My daughter is still planning to ride my old mule on the trail and in any 4-H show this year, but we see no reason to let Firefly mellow out in the pasture. The more up-front work my daughter can do with him now in a controlled environment will only pay off later when she feels ready to move onto him full time. I might add that Firefly did test her a few times in the arena, but she turned him in tight circles right away and he DrOpped the bad behavior immediately.

Christos, I let my daughter read your last paragraph. I wish you could have seen her smile!
New Member:
Marise1

Posted on Friday, Sep 1, 2006 - 6:57 pm:

UK info for Angie. Here in England a standing martingale goes from the noseband to the girth and does not have any part for the poll. Running martingales are the same as you described. (Both have a neckstrap)
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