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Discussion on Riding in lungering
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Member:
Paardex
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Posted on Friday, Jun 23, 2006 - 2:25 pm:
Hello All,I would like to know how you feel about riding in a 20m x20m lungering [sand] I am thinking about riding a horse [arab cross 1.50 14 years strong and well trained] in my lunge circle. I haven't ridden for a long time and the trails over here are beautiful and extensive I would however benefit from a more secure seat.
The horse I want to use for excercising myself has been lunged [by me] in the same ring for about three months 3 or 4 times a week for half an hour to give her enough condition for the rides with her owner and because I had to keep her weight down.
Any ideas for excercises are welcome and suggestions for how long to work her without doing harm to her on a relatively small circle
Any other suggestions for me staying on and with my horse in the forest?
Thanks in advance Jos
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Member:
36541
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Posted on Friday, Jun 23, 2006 - 6:38 pm:
Sounds like she's ready for you to have some time at the slow and medium trot on the circle without stirrups! Maybe you can find someone who dislikes you just a tiny bit to lunge her with you on board - that way you'll really have to work on your seat BTW, I love the horse in your profile - are you riding him currently?
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Member:
Paardex
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Posted on Saturday, Jun 24, 2006 - 3:50 am:
No Stacey but as I want to I need to excerciseSomeone to lunge her is not available and I do go with her to the forest but I dont feel safe alone as she might part company with me to easily. But she knows the lungeing so well I am sure we'll manage together.
After that the little Arab I bought[I ride her but only in company for safety reasons ] and then Cascade is my goal as a mount.
Jos
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Saturday, Jun 24, 2006 - 11:03 am:
jos - I sympathize with your not having anyone to ride with as I have the same problem. What I have done when riding a young horse out for the first few times is have my husband ride his mountain bike along with me. The other thing is to always take along your cell phone. And, if you don't feel comfortable riding on the trails, you can always take your horse for a walk like you would a dog and let it get used to the "outside world" that way.
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Member:
Warwick
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Posted on Saturday, Jun 24, 2006 - 4:44 pm:
Jos, like you I used to ride alone. And like Sara says, I was never without my cell phone. On one hand I loved the privacy but on the other, I missed having a companion for both the company aspect and also the additional safety factor - especially when riding young horses like I do. Also I find it's also easy to get demotivated if you are always on your own. This year I opened my barn to a couple of boarders and it's lovely to have the extra sets of hands (they do all their own stalls/paddocks and I just feed and turn out/in) and the company.
Is there any way you can acquire a boarder? This might solve your problem although I know finding the right boarder is often a real challenge.
Just a thought.
(Like Stacy, I also love the photo in your profile!)
Cheers
Sue
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Member:
Paardex
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Posted on Saturday, Jun 24, 2006 - 5:27 pm:
Cascade[the horse in my profile photo] is very content you two like him, he knew he wasn't fat it was just me fussing
I have a 'boarder' the cross arab mare,when her owner is around he rides with me with me on the arab. I really enjoy that. Also my cellphone always accompanies me but don't you guys have problems using it in for instance the forest? i am often out of reach.
As I am getting more friends over here[arrived 1 december2005] riding together with someone starts being within reach. Another reason to polish up my riding abilities I dont want the French to imagine all Dutch people DrOp from their horses with every slight slope or distraction from for instance does.
I do agree it's time for trot without stirrups on a circle and anyway it will save me time lungeing the fat off Grace as the Arab cross is called[her owner says she is 'gourmande' in French it sounds so much better then eating her head off for instance]
And yes Sue at times I find it hard to give 3 to 4 horses a day their attention and training which is why I tried to get someone to ride one of my own horses so far no luck a lot of people like to ride but I expect regularity and this is often a problem In my opinion a horse can't go on a ride for 3 hours in for instance the weekend and then do nothing during the rest of the week.
Still I wouldn't want to miss any of my animals I just seem to run into 'sadcases who need a home'frequently.
Jos
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Member:
Ilona
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Posted on Friday, Jun 30, 2006 - 11:14 pm:
Some thoughts. I do often ride alone which I know is less than wise. I strap my cell phone and a whistle, to my ankle so that if I fall I have less chance of damaging it, as I would on my hip or any place on my torso. I also give people an estimated time of return and I notify them promptly when I do return. They are instructed to notify a search operation to look for me if I don't return within an hour of that time. I've never had a search party sent. It makes me feel safer. I also give a general direction of my ride.
I think knowing I will get help actually secures my seat as I'm not nervous of an accident. I haven't come off in more than 30 years (OUCH!) and don't intend on starting now, but these are horses after all!
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 1, 2006 - 1:12 am:
Good thoughts, Ilona. I, too, always tell my husband, or someone, where I'm headed, what trail, where I'm leaving the trailer, and about when I'll be back.
I carry a "camel back" pack (I like to drink a lot of water) and besides water, I carry a small first aid kit good for people and horses; a granola bar or something like it; some duct tape; a Swiss Army knife; and a cotton scarf. The camel back packs ride comfortably on your back and have a plastic tube that runs from the water bladder in the pack, over your shoulder where it is easy to sip on if you want a drink. I carry a phone in the pack,too.
If going for a long ride, I also have saddle bags that are packed with a space blanket; a better first aid kit; a hoof pick; a wind breaker; some bailing string; and sometimes a fence tool. On a really long ride I add a few more things, like an Easy boot.
In the area where Ilona lives and is moving, and where I live, once you're off the paved road, you seldom see other people, except maybe ATV riders on the weekend. You need to be prepared.
A cell phone has saved the lives of two people on horses that I know personally; numerous lost hikers, ATVers, and snowmobilers have been saved by them also. Carrying one strapped to your leg is a great idea.
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 1, 2006 - 6:54 am:
Jos, especially when riding alone, do develop the habit of holding the pommel with your outside hand.
It will help improve your seat dramatically, negating the need to grab with your legs. It will also develop into a reflex, perhaps lifesaving in some situations.
It will not always save a fall, but you will not hit the ground head first, which is very important.
Riding without stirrups in the beginning is very difficult and may teach you to grab with your legs to hold your balance. I think it is better to postpone it for when your seat is a bit more secure.
I will also never ride outside without a helmet and vest. Trees, concrete patches, stones and such tend to grow exactly on the spot you'll land. Landing on your back may be funny in the soft arena sand, but is rarely enjoyable on the trail.
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 1, 2006 - 7:32 am:
Also, I always ride with a couple of mints in my pocket, always giving one to the horse when I fall. If I don't fall, he gets the mints immediately after dismounting.
It is funny to see them turning around to come for their mint, even if badly spooked.
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Member:
Alden
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 1, 2006 - 1:58 pm:
For us that ride remote country I'll repeat myself .
Last year I broke seven ribs and my left scapula falling from a horse in a remote part of Colorado. I normally do as everyone says and tell someone where I'm going and a return time. I had told the outfitter a return time, but I was scouting for Elk and I tend to follow trails (or not) as I see fit at the time. So he only knew the general direction I had traveled. I was lucky and was able to ride out. Cell phones stop working many miles away from this area.
Now I carry one of these, on me, not the horse
https://www.theepirbstore.com/product.asp?Product_Id=48310&d_id=9858&l1=9858&l2=
The cost is pretty steep, but after riding two hours out of the mountains with broken ribs, I thought it was pretty cheap considering the alternative.
I haven't done the research if these work in Europe, but I'm pretty sure it's a global network because this started as an ocean rescue operation, but it does work anywhere in the States. It is a satellite signal so remoteness isn't an issue and 406MHZ will penetrate thick foliage.
The mint idea is great, the horse I was riding that day does what Christos describes. I would jump off him in the arena as training and he always turns around and comes to you. We didn't use mints, he just made the connection from other training, but I like the mint idea a lot.
Good day,
Alden
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Member:
Alden
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 1, 2006 - 2:03 pm:
This is the correct link, the difference is the internal GPS. The first unit will get you rescued, this one just speeds the process considerably
And with the rebate the price difference is only about $30us
https://www.theepirbstore.com/product.asp?Product_Id=175234&d_id=9858&l1=9858&l2=
Good day,
Alden
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 1, 2006 - 3:20 pm:
Alden, the cell phones with GPS, will they also work? My cell phone has a setting that I can push which allows me to be located. Will they only work if the cell signal is working?
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 1, 2006 - 3:26 pm:
Alden what a great devise if only it was a few hundred cheaper. Too much for my wallet. I need something like it though as I ride for hours and hours in the mountains by myself. I only had a bad fall once when by myself and I had a safety vest (hubby makes me wear it when I am by myself) on. A deer jumped right in front of us and I was totaly unprepared not only that I had forgotten to check and retighten my girth after getting on. The saddle slipped all the way to the side. He started to take off but fortunatly as I was falling he slowed down then stopped as I lay on the ground winded. He looked at me like what are you doing down there. After 5 minutes I pulled myself up off the ground and led him for 5 minutes till I felt ok enough to get back on. I was over an hour away from the barn and no body new where I was. I just think how lucky I was. The vest helped alot.
My husband was furious with me when I told him.
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 1, 2006 - 6:21 pm:
Ouch, Alden, I didn't now that ! Glad you are well.
Thanks for the link, I didn't know you can register private PLBs.
They do work in Europe, coverage is global. The question is whether local authorities will order an SAR operation for a private beacon.
I also do not know how things work in the US, but in Europe you may very well be charged for the rescue operation you called. And that can easily be more than one can afford. I'd suggest that one is well informed before making that call !
Sara, the locating function of the mobile phone will not work where there's no network coverage.
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Member:
Hwood
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 1, 2006 - 6:55 pm:
Search and rescues are done all the time for individuals here . . . that's the point of search and rescue.
As far as I know, if the accident or getting lost is due to the individual straying into prohibited areas or due to negligence and foolishness, then there is sometimes a cost to the individual/s. Skiers who stray from marked trails and get lost, are charged for their rescue operations in Vermont.
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Member:
Ilona
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 1, 2006 - 8:26 pm:
Hi Alden,
That sounds like most unpleasant experience(art of the understatement!). You were very lucky to be able to ride out. Now that you mention it, I know there is a device that will pinpoint your location, satalite connected, and if activated immediately relays for deployment of search and rescue. If inadvertently set-off, or set off inappropriately, there is a $5,000 fine. That seems to be a good deterrent for pranksters. Does this device fall in that category.?
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 1, 2006 - 10:05 pm:
Here there are not only the sheriff's groups, but also horse and ATV groups that work train and work under the sheriff's, and also large volunteer groups turn out for any search and rescue, unless asked not to do so by authorities. In the National Parks, if you have to be helicoptered out, there is a charge. I don't think there is for the mule rescues, but am not sure. In the National Forest and BLM areas (Bureau of Land Management) charges depend on why you were lost, just like they do in Vermont. Ski out of bounds and get lost, and there's a charge plus a fine. Back country skiing and get hurt or lost, or hiking, hunting, etc. and get lost, there is no charge. I think the various groups in Utah do an amazing job! It's rather astounding the number of people that get lost in the mountains each year.
Many insurance policies will cover medical rescues, btw. But, not all do; so you need to check.
Bummer about the phone not working. My husband has a GPS device and an avalanche beacon when he goes back-country skiing. Guess I wouldn't need the avalanche beacon (!) but maybe should start taking the GPS when I go on long rides.
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Member:
Paardex
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 2, 2006 - 9:47 am:
Thanks All, my reply is a bit late because I fell when riding in the forest and sitting in front of the computer wasn't completely comfortable
Luckily the trick with the peppermints was already on my list and Grasse stayed by my side perfectly.[And of course more luck nothing happened except for a few bruises]
My cell phone works badly so I stay in range of houses and farmyards and my neighbours are aware when I leave[Thanks to Acacja whinnying like an idiot, and she isn't even alone!]
Still I quit galloping alone for the time being trot is more easily to reverse to walk for me.
I definitely need the lungeriding as soon as the temperature DrOps I will start.
One strange thing though it isn't as if I am not able to sit without stirrups I rode a lot when I was younger and everything comes back easily it is just [and I have always had this problem] as soon as something unexpected happens I am sitting on the ground never[before] really hurt myself just roll of easy and get up again and I can't seem to make myself trying to stay on the horse. Still I expect I could because when riding with a friend [then I use the little arab her gaits are more comfortable] he jumps trees and little waters gallops and goes up and down slopes really steep and I follow without any problem. It's just as if something urges me to DrOp on the ground before anything more serious happens[laugh if you wish but it really is true]
But the descriptions of you all of the countryside you ride in does seem to agree with the thought not riding alone is perhaps best.
Jos
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 2, 2006 - 12:53 pm:
Sorry for your fall, Jos, glad you're ok, thanks for the laughs.
We're laughing our heads off here with this technique of falling. Not with you, but because my wife does exactly the same. She's a very good rider, but apparently totally unaware of where the horse is.
(I'm relaying the following with her permission)
One day, a few years ago, a TB stallion she was riding bucked really high in canter. She took off from the saddle, but landed on the horse's neck, in front of the withers. She stayed there cantering the whole round, some 200m, and stopped the horse in front of us, me and our trainer, to ask what the horse did and we're rolling on the grass laughing. Completely unaware that she was riding on the horses neck! When we pulled ourselves together and told her to look behind her to see where the horse is, she said "oh, that's why it felt weird", hopped back in the saddle and went on, totally annoyed by us not being able to stop laughing.
She'd fall unexpectedly and ridiculously for no apparent reason. The horse would spook and turn very suddenly, then straighten out and trot easily and she'd fall on the second trot step.
The horse would buck high, she'd sit it out perfectly, trot it out, walk, then fall when the horse stopped abruptly from the walk.
She'd always fall after the horse had performed his stunt. Never during. She has sat through some unbelievable tricks, always falling right afterwards.
It is panic that causes this. She knows what she has to do, she does it, she can sit anything out. But she panics to a white face and total stiffness right afterwards, actually letting fall to put an end to the agony when there's no reason for it anymore.
Sometimes she would also do it when feeling things becoming fishy. She'd panic, freeze and let fall.
For the ones who have not seen it, this is not planning a fall and actually doing it, it is not falling off because you can't hold your balance, it is subconsciously surrendering to the fall, actually even diving into it a bit.
Katerina, my wife, says: Ride a horse you can totally trust. She suggests a Tinker, an Irish cob.
She was riding Tinkers in Holland this winter. It was really nice to finally see her enjoying herself on horseback after 10 years or so of torture and despair.
Some horses are simply too powerful, Jos, and the'res nothing wrong with you feeling intimidated from such power. May be the ones who ride and enjoy them are a bit disturbed, after all.
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Member:
Imogen
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 2, 2006 - 3:27 pm:
Jos, get someone to check your balance - do things like stand on one leg with your eyes closed for 2 minutes. Can you do it on both legs?
I suggest this because I hardly ever used to fall although I rode a lot. Then I had a neurological disease and after recovering from that, ended up with a poorly functioning leg which affected my balance. I spent a remarkable amount of time lying in the road looking up at one particular horse... and fell off regularly, different horses, different conditions. Things are finally improving a bit for me two years later...
If you think this is something you used to be able to do and now can't, you may have a physical problem with your balance that you have not noticed because in other activities you are able to compensate for it.
Best wishes
Imogen
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Member:
Paardex
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 2, 2006 - 5:39 pm:
Imogen, you had me checking my balance immediately but I am happy to say nothing seems wrong with it[at least not while not being on a horse!]
Christos I was amazed by your description of the situation. Like looking in a mirror boy am I glad someone else has this ridiculous things to.
You know I have had a horse who threw me the first time I rode him in a bramble bush and believe me after that I haven't passed this bush [with ANY kind of horse] without falling in it, you can imagine the mirth of my companions[horses and people] The strange thing is I 've owned a series of difficult horses with whom I was completely comfortable [the little Arab being the last ] and I fall from this completely dependable quiet Grasse who is always used for frightened riders to get comfortable by her owner, while he sold me the arab Acacja because he made a series of dangerous falls with her and after that she succeeded in having an accident with a local trainer came here as a nervous wreck and at the moment to the astonishment of my new friends over here is completely at ease just sometimes a little playful with me as her rider. So I suppose the Tinker idea will not work with me but a horse I trust seems essential.
I seem to depend more on them as being my loyal friend as on my ability as rider. Still more time in the saddle in the lungering will make things better I suppose and I will take time for that but perhaps with the horses I am least comfortable with.
Your wife I will applaud for not giving up because I know it takes courage to ride if you panic from time to time and though I didn't realise it I am sure you are right and this must be the reason for such ridiculous behaviour.
On the other hand it is good to know other people amuse themselves with these exploits
Jos
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Member:
Ilona
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 2, 2006 - 6:27 pm:
There is a wonderful book that works specifically on balance called:
Ride from Within (Tai Chi principles)
By James Shaw
You may find it helpful, I do know that all the people I have recommended it to (and who applied it, it won't do much from a bookshelf ) have really enjoyed the results.
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 2, 2006 - 7:04 pm:
Unfortunately, Jos, lungeing did not help with this problem. We lunged my wife for months, her seat and balance improved to an enviable point, but she'd still fall.
The issue seems to be psychological, not technical.
One day she fell because the horse got excited and called to another horse, without changing his trot at all. She panicked from the vibration on his ribs, froze and fell, kind of fainted off the horse.
She started riding with me some 10 years ago, when the only horses available were extremely nervous TBs. The safest horse we had was a 16.2 hh 6yo TB stallion. A kind horse by all means, but still too young, big, strong and fast for a first horse.
Our trainer lunged her for more than three months to start with, and she seemed to be doing fine. She is a very stoic person, I must add, and she doesn't quit easily.
She was dead scared from the very beginning. We could see it, of course, but we didn't realise how serious it was. Sometimes she'd freeze on the longe and ask to dismount, but then she'd ride again after 20 min or so without being pushed or anything. Really, we had no chance to know how much she was freaking out.
This sweet horse never actually did anything. That one single big playful buck, but we don't think that this created the problem.
What really scared her was me and the trainer working completely crazy horses. I doubt that there was a single day for 2 years or so that she didn't see a horse buck, rear or gallop like crazy.
So she has witnessed practically everything a horse can do, and though it has never happened to her, she simply couldn't get it out of her mind for years.
The last stable we were in was no better. The horse I was riding was totally crazy. I was asking her to tape some sessions on video to see what exactly this &^%#$ of a mare was doing and she'd run away after five minutes, she could not even watch.
She started riding again this winter in Holland, in a small manege with relatively quiet horses. All went well, she even started riding the big KWPN to cool him off after work.
The plan now is just to keep her away from trouble. If somebody falls or a horse misbehaves in the manege, she simply dismounts quietly before it hits her again. And I avoid all stunts in her presence. It does seem to work, we'll see next winter !
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Member:
Ilona
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 2, 2006 - 7:56 pm:
Breathing slow, deep breaths is a wonderful counter to fear. It actually blocks adrenalin production in our body. Most people are not aware of this physiological connection. (A nice, sound scientific fact for us fact-lovers!)
What I tell the nervous riders I am around is deep breathe with consistent awareness, if you concentrate on breath its amazing how your body stays where you wanted it to be all along. I also recommend humming your favorite tune. Horses seem to love it, and the combination of the deep breath to emit the humming, plus the soothing sound itself seems to calm, settle and soften the rider which of course then does the same for the horse.
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 2, 2006 - 9:03 pm:
Humming works wonders to help the rider relax, and the horse also.
Christos, I'm sorry, but "we lounged my wife for months" just had me rolling on the floor! (well, almost.) Maybe it's the glass of wine I just had, but it really hit me really funny with the mental image it produced! Sorry. Back to my wine and on to dinner.
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Member:
Paardex
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Posted on Monday, Jul 3, 2006 - 4:37 am:
Sara I agree I got some mental pictures of Christos wife and her dedicated trainers to but hey with all these good french wines!
Still I am sort of glad it didn't work because my problems started after working for two years in Holland in a stable who prepared young horses more especially young stallions to be ridden or for 'Den Bosch' Christos you must know what I mean the big gathering in Holland where the new 3 year old stallions are selected.As I was light I was always used to mount them first.As I am stubborn I didn't want to say I was afraid but just got on with the job.[the good thing was I got used to VERY good horses and they do give a wonderful feeling as long is panic is at bay don't they?] After that my husband and me started breeding and training young horses an as he had to earn the money for this ambition I was left alone at home to cope with 5 to 10 young'idiots'.
With a lunge I am perfectly at ease with really each kind of idiotic horse[and believe me I have seen a few!] but I suppose riding will stay difficult after hearing the story of your wife.
As I said I am at ease with an other rider or person for back up and with horses whom I know well and trust. Perhaps the wisest thing to do is not put pressure on myself and just ride in company for a while because I have to admit riding alone[even a sweet horse like Grasse] and in a lungering she can't get out frightens me.
As we had an awful accident in Holland with a horse getting loose and walking into a car[though not through a riding accident] I am afraid I do have a double panic[ the horse getting into danger and myself on a horse]
I thank you so very much for making this clear to me this will be a great help. Understanding what is the problem is half way solving the problem.
Ilona I know you are right about the breathing the thing is as long as all goes well I am the most relaxed rider you could image[most of my horses even the little Acacja tend to fall asleep with me] The thing is if I change to fright it goes so fast I don't have control on it.That being said the book interests me hugely I know I will at least enjoy reading it, so I will check Amazon!
Jos
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Member:
Paardex
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Posted on Monday, Jul 3, 2006 - 4:51 am:
Christos though I know this email doesn't belong here[administration please remove it if I am out of line] but I suppose you will be going back to the south of Holland and I have a friend in Limburg with a dressage horse [she trains horses and gives instruction to the level of Intermediare]whom you and your wife perhaps would like to visit some time. If you are interested please contact me perhaps on my private email addres?
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Monday, Jul 3, 2006 - 6:58 am:
I have 3 children 27,26, and 15. None of them ride or want to they think its for crazy people. They witnessed their crazy mother on some crazy horses and watched me be thrown many a time. Its such a shame as I would have loved for them to help my mother with her horses as now they are starting to get too much for her and I am in America. My niece did well
in the show ring but sold her horse as a teenager. I have one more niece who
13 and still horse crazy. I hope she stays with it. Or we wont have any one to carry on our families horse business. Too sad. I give your wife a lot of credit Christos one strong lady, Lots of guts.
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Monday, Jul 3, 2006 - 8:07 am:
Yes, Jos, we'll be back in south Limburg all winter, I suppose we can both use a good trainer. I believe it is ok to post the name here for everyone to see, there's nothing wrong with naming a person who does a good job.
Or you can send the info to my private e-mail, yours is not enabled (default is off).
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Monday, Jul 3, 2006 - 10:37 am:
Jos, I understand your nervousness at riding when working with "rough" horses. I personally think you'd be crazy if you weren't afraid, at least to some extent. I have it easy as I only work with my own horses that I've foaled out and raised. By the time I get around to working under saddle with them, we know each other very well. I go extra slow with the ones that have a personality that makes be think they'll buck or do other foolish things. Even so, it's always a little nerve wracking the first few times I ride them. You just never know what a horse will do. When I was young, I was totally fearless and could ride just about anything without falling off. Now that I'm older, I know it will really hurt if I take a hard fall and it would will take a very long time to recover. So, I'm no longer fearless.
Katrina, I'm not sure your hitting the ground a lot has anything to do with your children not wanting to be involved with the horses. My children took lessons and rode when they were young, but have no interest now other than petting the horses and admiring them in the field when they visit home.
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Member:
Alden
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Posted on Monday, Jul 3, 2006 - 12:58 pm:
A cell phone even with GPS only works within cell coverage. SAR can be expensive, here in Colorado there is a fee added to hunting and fishing licenses that covers a SAR, but think of the options.
I rode out with my injuries and I expect I could with broken limbs also. But lets say that a rib punctured a lung, or something more serious? Then what's the real cost of a PLB?
To activate these PLB's you have to press two buttons simultaneously, so the chance of accidental activation is about zero. I would hope pranksters get fined heavily for activating a SAR.
The signal passes from military satellites through military command centers to civilian agencies. I would hope that the chain of notification goes to agencies that have agreed in advance to participate But we are talking about governments here
Good day,
Alden
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Member:
Ilona
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Posted on Monday, Jul 3, 2006 - 1:30 pm:
Thanx Alden,
that answers my question.
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Monday, Jul 3, 2006 - 2:02 pm:
Sara thanks,
Iv'e always had a guilt trip. Blaming myself and never understanding why they have no interest only my youngest showed interest for a while until he saw me get bucked off badly when I first got the horse I have now. I could not speak as I was so winded. I fall badly as I hang on with everything I have instead of relaxing and letting myself go. anyway, He stopped wanting lessons. I was better with him I took him to a trainer. My oldest kids I tried to teach them myself on another arab who was a bit of hot head. I remember asking her years later why she did not like horses / And she said remember when you lunged me on Sonny. I could not remember. She said she fell off. It was a major deal in her life and I did not remember it. Boy did I feel so bad.
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Member:
Dwinans
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Posted on Monday, Jul 3, 2006 - 5:50 pm:
Christos,
Your post where you said your wife "kind of fainted off the horse" triggered a thought with me. It almost sounds like cataplexy which is similar to narcolepsy except that it's a shocking event that triggers near unconsciousness. You keep saying that she panics and freezes. I wonder if it's something physical like that?
Just thinking aloud
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Monday, Jul 3, 2006 - 6:55 pm:
Well, Dawn, it is not exactly fainting or falling unconscious, it is more like a paralysing shock.
It is, indeed, a very interesting thing to see. It is an abnormal fear, a reflex you can not control. Much the same mechanics with claustrophobia, I suppose.
She is not afraid that her horse will buck or bolt, for instance, she knows very well that this particular horse has never bucked or bolted and probably never will.
Still, the sight of a horse bucking or bolting will trigger this reflex and render her helpless.
It is not dangerous now that we have changed the practice to stopping and dismounting when it hits her. It only destroys her ride for the day.
Should a horse misbehave badly she'll see it through, she's not thrown easily or anything, then go into shock and dismount.
Not that bad, after all.
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Monday, Jul 3, 2006 - 8:04 pm:
I once had happen to me something similar to what happens to Christos' wife, except that in my case I fainted from sheer happiness and fell off my horse. It was the first time I got to ride my first Arabian, a three year old stud colt. I was so excited I could barely stand it. I rode him bareback in the arena and after riding for awhile, I stopped him in the middle of the arena. All of a sudden I just blacked out and found I was on the ground. The horse didn't move. A very strange feeling!
Katrina, I think it's rare for a kid to want to do what their parents are interested in; they usually want to go their own way.
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Member:
Dwinans
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Posted on Monday, Jul 3, 2006 - 8:27 pm:
Christos,
I had a friend who become "paralyzed" when she heard traumatic stories. Her body would go completely limp and although she was conscious and could hear and see everybody around her she was unable to move her body. This was definitely something physical rather than mental. This is what I think cataplexy is - you don't necessary fall unconscious. It sounds very similar to your wife. Very interesting.
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Member:
Paardex
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 4, 2006 - 3:56 am:
Dawn and Christos, As I react exactly the same way as your wife does and apart from that suffer from panic attacks for me the link to panic was quite clear.And though my attacks are induced by a physical 'defect'[neurotransmitters being inhibited to fast or something like that] and with medication are almost completely gone[after the medication my fear for heights was almost completely gone to and mounting a strange horse is no problem any more [until he does something unexpected then I end up on the ground] there are a lot of people who are from time to time panic stricken with no physical reason at all. Just very sensitive and reacting very strong on bad things seen or heard.
Jos
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Member:
Ilona
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 4, 2006 - 10:53 am:
Jos,
That makes perfect sense. I didn't know about the panic attacks. It is completely neurological and people who think it is a character choice, or flaw, are simply uninformed. It is like a kidney or liver problem, we have no choice or control.
Something I used to recommend for my patients (psychotherapist here) was a herbal combination called gaba-val. Its non-prescription and very effective for anxiety and panic. The only place I could find it was a t a homeopathic store named: Santa Monica Homeopathic, in Santa Monica California. They do ship. Some people at my old barn took it to help with riding anxiety and it didn't interfere with performance just helped with those transmitters and adrenaline. Its as benign as taking multi-vitamins, otherwise I would never post this information.
(I know Dr. O. is just GROANING right now!)
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Member:
Vrich
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 4, 2006 - 11:14 pm:
Jos - I love your openness about panic attacks. I was a major sufferer-to an overwhelming extent. I am now pretty much controlled by meds. When I was going through the worst of it, it was not something understood or discussed. It's wonderful to arrive at a time when the chemistry and physiology of the brain is better understood!
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 5, 2006 - 6:40 am:
Ilona is right, perceiving attacks of panic as character flaws or weakness is simply wrong.
I did see my trainer panic once, we were hiking on a gorge that is considered the deepest in the world and he got a panic attack from the height. It was very interesting to see a professional stuntman react like this, white face, cold sweat and shaking uncontrollably, and I can tell you this man was no chicken. And as far as he knew, he was not afraid of heights.
I don't remember myself panicking anywhere, except once that I almost fainted on the dentist's chair. That was also funny, because he hadn't touched me yet, I was not in pain and I am not at all afraid of dentists. But I was nervous that day, for no apparent reason, and almost fainted. Go figure.
We believe medication is not necessary unless, of course, the attacks are frequent or dangerous. Cancelling your brain's warning mechanisms is a serious decision, isn't it?
Ilona, it was me you heard groaning about the herb mixture, not DrO 
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Member:
Paardex
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 5, 2006 - 10:03 am:
Ilona, I like herbal medications too let them groan. For this problem however I do seem to need 'regular 'medications as I do not want to risk a throwback.
Val I think you will understand. France has done me a world of good as people[and doctors] seem to have a different way of looking at mental problems.They accept 'flaws ' like this as being a medical problem and are very open and easy going about it[Believe it or not a friend over here suffers from these attacks badly and whenever it happens one of the people around her asks: a pill? and keeps her safe until she is relaxing! She told me however it happened in Rotterdam[Holland] in a tower she was visiting for the vieuw, her husband had to break her loose from a pole she grabbed in complete panic with the help of an astounded dutch gentleman[she is about 50 kg a tiny elegant french lady]and believe me the Dutch mayority thinks differently about problems like this!So imagine the faces when the French visitors kept reacting as if this was a completely normal way to sightsee!]I would like to add though that ofcourse the problems CAN be mental too!In which case 'canceling the brains warning mechanism' as Christos so aptly puts it is NOT wise.
I would certainly not do that just to ride a horse in that case I will enjoy them from the ground.
Jos
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Member:
Ilona
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 5, 2006 - 10:59 am:
You are too funny Christos. I should have known !
Actually, unless you suffer and have tried the stuff you really have no grounds upon which to make judgement.
As to 'cancelling the brains warning mechanism' thats NOT what I am talking about.
Some people produce too much chemical to warrant the situation. If I am in a car accident there will be plenty of appropriate adrenalin and neuro-transmisiion. What happens for some people is their brain is only able to secrete large amounts and these are not appropriate for things like, a sudden knock at the door, an unexpected dog barking etc. Some brains have little, or no, gradation capacity, or produce random rapid infusion. Those are the situations that are being addressed. With my patients I always like to to try the mildest action first, before sending them to a Physician. I am a strong advocate of being pro-active in life and a strong supporter of western medicine. I just think life can be taken in graduating steps. Of course, this said, each situation is unique and my recommendations depend on each unique individual. Some people won't even consider medication, but will take an amino-acid and valarian root compound. (By the way Harvard Medical school has done research showing the positive effects of this intervention) I have been practicing for 34 years on 3 continents, if I don't have good judgement by now, please shoot me and put everyone out of their misery!
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 5, 2006 - 11:15 am:
It was a double groooannnn Christos. It is not so much that there are not herbs that might have an effect on the nervous system, think Cannabis for instance, but that the use of an herb that effects the chemistry of the nervous system can be used with no fear of ill effects is just not how pharmacology works. After all multi-vitamins are toxic when over used.
But on a lighter note (I guess I am feeling like the curmudgeon here) talking about cancelling the brain's warning mechanism reminds me of the old ditty about the aged fox hunter? It ends:
"and I buy mine (courage) at the corner store for 50 cents a pint."
DrO 
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Member:
Ilona
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 5, 2006 - 11:49 am:
Dr. O,
With due respect, these interventions are administered, taken with strict guidelines, monitored etc, just as traditional medications. People overdose on codeine, aspirin, sleeping aids, to say nothing of the side effects etc of other traditional medications. Anything, inappropriately, and sometimes appropriately, taken is potentially toxic. Why did you assume that I would not be responsible in this matter. Its the same with equine medication. You Dr. O posted about non-traditional ulcer treatment for horses. As long as the research is positive does it matter the origin of the product?
If interested, I can back up all I say with solid, extensive research evidence in brain-wave monitoring from an EEGs from know, well respected research institutions. I take umbridge when judgement is made without the advantage of specific knowledge.
By the way, courage and anxiety/panic attacks are unrelated.
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Member:
Lhenning
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 5, 2006 - 3:08 pm:
I too suffer from sudden fear and immobilization, but do not feel it is strong enough to warrant medication. I think I am like a prey animal. My flight or fight instinct is very strong, like a horse. I can go from total calm and relaxed to sudden fright and over seemingly nothing. It was getting to the point that my horse was behaving very badly and that was causing me more fear and tension.
What I did was research fear and found some helpful tips on Oprah's webpage. I know, sounds funny, but that Dr. Phil has some good ideas. The article and test were written after 9/11, but I gained valuable insight that helped me identify my irrational fears and give me useful tools to get past them. Here is the link:
https://www.oprah.com/tows/pastshows/tows_past_20011025_b.jhtml
Linda
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Member:
Stevens
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 5, 2006 - 4:22 pm:
I'm surprised when advocates of alternative treatments differentiate between traditional medications and herbal remedies or "interventions". Chemistry is chemistry, it doesn't matter if the drugs/agents in question are synthetically produced or naturally occurring.
While I'll be the first to recognize that the FDA is slow to approve new treatments, I also realize that the point of the approval process is to protect the health of the general population and likely the pharmaceutical companies from lawsuits.
I'm sorry Ilona, but I really must disagree that alternative medicines undergo the same rigorous research as traditional medications, at least in the US. If that were the case, more would be approved by the FDA. The origin of the product doesn't matter to me, but the rigor of the research certainly does.
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Member:
Ilona
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 5, 2006 - 9:05 pm:
Chris,
Some herbal treatments reccommended are indeed bogus and unfortunately FDA is not required to approved these treatments. I have been a strong advocate of FDA involvement in the efficacy and standard control of these treatments, there is some movement in the medical field to get congress to pass legislation regarding these treatments, in the same manner that was passed for other FDA requirements. Maybe my choice of words implied something less than valid treatment. That was not intended. You are absolutely correct, chemistry is chemistry,and what I am referring to are chemical interactions that result in the altering of neurological phenomena hence decreasing the symptom of anxiety or panic attacks. I do have knowledge of psychopharmacology and neurology. Yes there are many people, physicians, psychotherapists, and others who are not knowledgeable, trained or informed in an adequate manner. Do not include me in those ranks. The are many vets that are sub-standard, does that make Dr.O. substandard by definition for also being a vet. Of course not. The same applies to me. It is a proven scientific fact that without vitamin C a human being will suffer from potentially fatal scurvy. There is similar rigorous scientific proof of the efficacy for gaba-val. I was simply referencing something I thought would be helpful for readers on this site. It seemed appropriate for the thread.
In addition behavioral treatment, referenced above, may also be very helpful. It depends on the severity of the neurological imbalance as to how truly effective behavioral treatment can be. Many hundreds of thousands of people, if not millions, benefit from these treatments.
Chris are you a licensed physician, psycho-pharmacologist, psychologist, or psychotherapist? I'm not being snide, I am sincerely curious. I do hope you respond.
best regards
Ilona
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 5, 2006 - 9:29 pm:
Ilona, a question. This production of too much chemical for the situation, is it the same thing as children who over-react to stimuli? ie they can't seem to control their reaction to things and laugh too loud at inappropriate times, etc. Some when given too much stimuli at once even go "catatonic?"
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Member:
Ilona
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 5, 2006 - 9:58 pm:
Yes Sara,
What you indicate, baring in mind those are very scanty details, do sound like the possible result of organic brain malfunction. Its most important to remember that no-one chooses brain malfunction any more than they choose kidney malfunction. Its NOT a personal choice, and the results are NOT in that persons control.
The population at large is frightened of brain malfunction as there is this misconception that our brain function=who we are. Actually our values and how we choose to live by those values/principles defines who we are. Children are still learning about values and principles to live by, it really only comes to full fruition in our early 20's. But that is a whole other topic. Besides which we can make those choices anew and take those actions and re-define ourselves at any point in our lives. Hence the phrase, he/she has turned his/her life around. That phrase is the result of pro-active alternative choice and action.
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Member:
Stevens
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 5, 2006 - 11:48 pm:
Hi Ilona,
No, I'm not a licensed p-anything. My degrees are in Mathematics, hence the obsession with the scientific method, data and statistically significant sample sizes.
I did not mean to imply that you were in anyway incompetent or uninformed. My point is simply that there are, as you yourself point out, many "herbal" treatments out there that are not proven to be effective or even safe. Many of the charlatans selling this junk even state that it's "100% natural and safe". Less well-informed consumers are indeed taken in by this ruse. Arsenic and carbon monoxide are both 100% natural, but they sure ain't safe.
If I had a reason to consider gaba-val, I'd certainly ask for the references you indicate that you have and verify them prior to using the product. Since I do not have the personal knowledge to evaluate these products, I rely primarily on the FDA to do it for me. I don't think this means that I have a closed mine, just a pragmatically cautious one.
Incidentally, being a licensed physician, psycho-parmocologist, etc doesn't imply competence either. After all, what do you call someone who graduated at the bottom of their class in medical school? Why Dr. of course.
Cheers,
Chris
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Member:
Ilona
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 6, 2006 - 12:45 am:
Hi Chris,
I did point out that there are many professionals who are sub-standard, it is a constant concern of mine. As I said in my comments to you: "Yes there are many people, physicians, psychotherapists, and others who are not knowledgeable, trained or informed in an adequate manner." and yes, we do call them Dr. and it is not always a well earned title.
That said, it seems that we are more on the same page than not.
Incidentally my fiance has a Phd in mathematical statistics....it took me a while to figure out what that even is!!
I appreciate that you took the time to respond, thanx.
best regards
Ilona
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Member:
Erika
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 6, 2006 - 9:58 am:
I had to laugh about the foxhunter's courage! We always referred to the passing of the flask at checks as "liquid courage"!
Funny, but my husband thinks that a good margarita makes me fluent in Spanish...claims he's witnessed the miracle in Mexico a few times!!
Erika
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Member:
Dtranch
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 6, 2006 - 10:19 am:
Sounds like I'm gonna' have to bring some "moonshine" to make you all speak "redneck" so I can communicate with you.
DT
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 6, 2006 - 10:44 am:
Ilona when you say "It's as benign as taking multi-vitamins" it implies a medication that effects the chemistry of the brain is benign. I was pointing out that we always need to careful, even with multi-vitamins. However I do consider herbs problematic from this very standpoint. How they were grown, stage of harvest, storage, preparation, all effect their strength. The result is that it is impossible to know the potency (or lack there of) when you purchase a herbal product. It makes accurate dosing a problem. I am sure all of the studies you can quote have quantified the active ingredients being administered. This is something not done in a over the counter preparation. If they have not the studies are no good, if they do they may not apply to the products people buy.
Ilona, I am not attacking you nor accusing you of anything but I do wish to discuss your position on this. I am responsible for every post on this site and while I never suppress any post (alright I can think of 2 but that is in over 70,000 posts and they were less than civil) I do feel the need to discuss the ideas put forth on them. Please take this post in this framework of open, friendly discussion.
DrO
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 6, 2006 - 10:51 am:
Oh my gosh, Dennis; good moonshine is powerful stuff and can indeed work many "miracles!" I had a relative who was a district judge in the St.Joe, MO. area. He was paid off in moonshine by the "good" stills so they could stay in business. He took the pay offs with the rationale that the good moonshiners were actually doing the populace a service; he had no qualms about shutting down those who produced inferior product. That innocent looking, clear liquid sat in several gallon jugs in his basement. Wow!! Just a smell would stand you on your ear! A few drinks and you could speak "redneck" as well as several other languages!!
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Member:
Ilona
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 6, 2006 - 12:06 pm:
Dr. O,
We are on the same page. I believe have been very friendly, open and inviting of discussion. I just stand my ground when I perceive, rightly or wrongly, a prejudice, absence of information, or assumption and then a rush to judgement. Like you, I desire that people have as much information as possible.
I stated in my one post that I wanted FDA monitoring of these items/products/treatments/ whatever words people are comfortable with. I stated that I am an advocate of passing legislation to this effect. I don't know what else I can say about this to make my position clear.
When people use supplements, and historically, have asked me my advice, there are certain products I recommend above others for exactly the reasons you mention. These products have been tested more thoroughly than others I am aware of, for strength and potency quality control including the soil analysis of where the products are grown, insecticide use, or absence thereof, and crop rotation. Contrary to your belief there are some companies that diligent and responsible as to their product. That there is no FDA involvement is not their fault, that is the fault of the legislature. Surely they cannot be prejudiced against because one agency has not included them in their monitoring program.
I believe it is every persons individual responsibility to be pro-active in what they put in their body. We cannot only rely on government agencies for our safety. We all know that even with FDA approval products are pulled off shelves for toxic side-effects. The way food is processed, right from insecticides and up, has changed over the years as more information is learned. I personally try to only eat organic foods for this reason. Am I perfect at it, no, but I do my best.
Yes it is possible to be harmed by an excess of just about anything, including carrot juice. There will be people who will be irresponsible or even actively seeking self-harm. It is impossible, for even the FDA to protect these people from themselves. I was referring to benign use of multi-vitamins in accordance to their recommended dosage as per bottle purchased.
Sadly most physicians are not given extensive training in nutrition, any more than they are in psychology/psychiatry/psyco-pharmacology. Medical school covers the basics, the different areas of specialty then expand on that area only, and then really it is with a minimum of 10 years of experience that solid knowledge is acquired. This holds true for any profession.
As with any profession there is extreme caution outside the area of expertise and sadly, sometimes, arrogant prejudice that can come from ignorance.
Hope this helps, and thanx for your time,
Ilona
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Member:
Stevens
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 6, 2006 - 12:59 pm:
Ilona,
It's my turn to take umbrage now. Intelligent skepticism is a far cry from "arrogant prejudice that can come from ignorance".
Check out the fda website, https://www.fda.gov/ there are indeed control mechanisms for herbal supplements. There is also a link there for contacting the FDA and making recommendations for things you'd like them to monitor.
I too try to eat organic whenever possible. Basically, I think it just makes sense to avoid eating poison. I also don't take anyone's word for something being organic, but look for the USDA organic seal. Yes, I know that there are loopholes in the USDA organic definition, but it's better than nothing.
I like to make use of things that my tax dollar is funding anyway.
Regards,
Chris
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Member:
Ilona
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 6, 2006 - 1:34 pm:
Hi Chris,
I wasn't referring to anyone on this site when making that comment, just that that has been my experience at times. I believe I did use the word "sometimes" when making that comment.
I too like to make use of my tax dollars. Boy,... could we get side-tracked into a discussion of the abuse of tax dollars!!! I work very hard for every dime, I make, as I'm sure does everyone, and don't always like the way it is so recklessly spent by others.
I am aware there is a control mechanism for supplements, and thanx for making that point as most people think there is no control what-so-ever. Its just scanty with too many loop holes which companies are very adept at utilizing. There are not the same rigors applied to prescription required medications. I would prefer a more thorough approach.
best regards
Ilona
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Jul 7, 2006 - 10:32 am:
Ilona, with vitamins you have some assurance of what is in them and the amount. You also have a expiration date with again some assurance that if used prior to that date they will be what they say they are or at least 90% of it. Do you know of any herbal companies that test their products for content of active ingredient(s) and have tested the shelf life? I would be interested in the name of any such companies.
DrO
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Member:
Paardex
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Posted on Friday, Jul 7, 2006 - 2:44 pm:
Ilona,I've taken a few days to decide whether I wanted to bring up this subject because I don't want to give the impression I want to be looked at as a'courageous' person but in a way in my opinion panic attacks and courage are related. Each time Christos's wife mounts a horse she has to sum up more courage then a person without her experiences. Every person who lives with panic and or a lot of anxiety has to sum up courage to go on with normal life. I look at it this way : I have a horse who is a bit claustrofobic each time I ask her to accept limitation of her freedom it takes more discipline faith and courage of her then from the others though she performs less difficult tasks and each time I applaud her for this.I am quite convinced your words didn't mean to contradict what I just wrote but it is very difficult to admit being panicked or frightened without a good reason and thus very easy to take your words as a cricism[I must add I am speaking for myself but I think more people feel this way]
Furthermore I really want to thank everyone for contributing to this discussion because it has given me a lot to think about and a few insights which are very helpful[not in the least the last part of the discussion about different types of medications!]
Jos
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Member:
Corinne
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 8, 2006 - 1:33 pm:
Well....catching up on my posts. To all who suffer from anxiety or any other neurological disorders (myself included), pharmacological intervention can be a God send, and I applaud you Jos for your candid discussion on what you are feeling. Neurological imbalances and psychological disorders have unwarranted stigma and that is a sad state of affairs because it's like any other medical condition.
And as some of you have alluded there should be no shame in having to receive treatment for a medical condition. That's why I am now posting because I too suffer from generalized anxiety disorder as well (and it's gotten me and Demetrius in trouble at times with his Arabian anxiety).
In my case I just always thought I was high strung (always a little anxious and a huge worrier and I talk very fast) and oh yes...definately type A. I too was just in a state of fight or flight but thought it just ran in the family and used it primarily to my advantage so I had never considered it a problem enough to seek treatment. I was a trauma nurse, an Air Force Officer and a 4.0 grad school student. But for the last three years I have had idiopathic insomnia for which we could not find a cause. So I tried med after med after med, gaining 20 pounds on Ambien with the night munchies (thank goodness it's all finally come off after discontinuing it) but my doctor suggested I was manifesting anxiety while I was sleeping. I didn't see how that was the case when I would wake after two hours of sound sleep I didn't feel anxious I just felt like I slept nine hours and couldn't got back to sleep. To make a long story short, after going to another doctor because of our impending move, he too concurred with my former provider and said perhaps you always so anxious all the time and worrying so much all the time you can simply not allow yourself to relax enough to sleep. So he recommended a medication regime I had not yet tried. I now take a nightly antianxiety med and a norepinephrine reuptake blocker during the day and I am calmer, can think clearer, don't worry about what others would think are silly little things and I can relax and sleep! In fact slept in today! Yea! So don’t worry Cristos these meds in individuals with true anxiety conditions doesn’t shut off anything in the brain it improves it’s function.
And my riding has improved 10 fold because I have stopped relaying my (what I used to call nervous tension) to my horse. In the last six months we have moved up from training level to first level in dressage and are getting back into jumping. The other day my horse spooked and took a sudden turn around a set of barrels when we were supposed to be going on the long line....and I just laughed. Normally that would have had me in a fetal position and butt end over tea kettle. Because my reaction wasn't anxiety or fear he settled down in a few seconds because his "leader was not scared of that old tractor going by". All this time I have been perpetuating my Arabian's fears by transferring my own anxiety when things went wrong! Can't believe I waited all these years and could have felt so much better. Can't wait to show this year.....Relaxed and Calm.
Good Luck to you Jos and to anyone who has to deal with these types of medical conditions while trying to ride a 1200 animal! Your right it does take courage especially when we know the anxiety is there because of a chemical imbalance and there is nothing we can do about it except prescribed interventions, medical or otherwise to help control our anxiety.
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 8, 2006 - 3:15 pm:
Corinne, fear of a horse's power is absolutely logic and natural.
If somebody is afraid of riding a calm cob or pony who never misbehaves I agree, this is overreacting and may be some medication is in good order.
But being afraid of modern sporthorses is not a malfunction. It is absolutely normal even to panic from time to time. Uncomfortable, but absolutely normal. Your brain is telling you that you push it too far, and it's probably right. Overriding this beautiful warning mechanism may not be wise.
I believe it is the brain of people who are never afraid of horses that needs some repair, not the other way around.
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Member:
Corinne
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Posted on Saturday, Jul 8, 2006 - 10:49 pm:
Christos....I agree with you that everyone should have a healthy "fear" per say and respect for something so large and powerful as a horse and those who do not, your right, need to reexamine their thought processes!
The point I and (I think) some are trying to make is that for those of us who have actual chemical imbalances that cause our anxiety (that affect us outside of the saddle) adding situations that could cause anxiety like just being mounted for some, perhaps the showring, or the idea of something going wrong while mounted for others, makes it all the more challenging and different for us than for those who have healthy anxiety just because of the awesome power of the horse. For one when you have any type of anxiety disorder your anxiety and level of panic is usually disproportionate to the situation and really hard to manage, even if, in your logical brain the anxiety provoking issue shouldn't be yielding such a huge and scary response. It is very unsettling if you have ever had this level of anxiety. And for those in society who feel anxiety is all in someone's head, misinformation and lack of education may be partly to blame but who knows? (Not that anyone here has implied they believe that).
Additionally as a nurse I say to those who can use biofeedback and therapy, bravo, but for the those of us whose imbalances don't respond to conservative treatment and nothing else has helped, medical guidance and pharmacological measures can make all the difference and for me that has helped in all aspects of my life even in the saddle.
Goodness I hope Tom Cruise doesn't belong to this site! LOL.
Have a good weekend all.
Corinne
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 9, 2006 - 5:04 am:
Corinne, I do not mean to argue with any doctor who diagnoses an abnormal condition and prescribes a treatment for the patient's relief. Nor do I argue the need for some help from time to time, be it a modern pill prescribed by your physician or the good old pint of beer.
We must not forget, also, that we all have different temperaments. Much like our horses, each one of us must be treated, trained and managed (self management, in most cases) according to his needs and peculiarities as a person.
Now without being a psychiatrist or any specialist on the subject, I think there are a couple of remarks I should share with you, in hope that they may help us understand our conditions a bit better.
I have worked with many different horse people, from stuntmen and jockeys to little kids on their first ride. Kids I do not understand, honestly, I can not "read" their reactions. So my opinion does not concern their case.
As far as adults are concerned, I have failed to observe significant differences in feeling of fear. Yes, there are some, but I believe they are insignificant. For any two people in the same conditions, in the same training level and with the same experiences, the fear they feel is pretty much the same.
Where I found big, huge differences, is the way of handling and expressing the fear. Some people will run right away, some will become aggressive in reaction, some will suppress it and break down later, some will laugh uncontrollably. They all feel more or less the same, just express it differently.
It is important to understand here that suppressing the expression of fear does very little towards overcoming the cause. It is the reflex you correct with a pint of beer, not the cause.
The cause is a logic process, your brain telling you that it doesn't have enough data stored to process this situation. That will not change with medication, at least until the pill of knowledge and experience is invented.
What cures the cause is stepping back a bit, taking things easier, providing your brain with the necessary pictures and other data to process the situation at hand adequately so that there is no need to sound the alarm.
This is why as we accumulate experience, we are not anymore afraid of the same things. Not at all. I am now not afraid that the horse will kick me because I know where I must stand and I can read the horse's body language. I am not afraid that the horse will buck or bolt because now I can feel him getting ready and prevent it and should he do it anyway I now know how to sit it out.
I have had this conversation many times. You will be amazed to see how difficult it is to persuade people that yes, I was afraid just the same way, may be even more and no, I do not believe there's anything wrong with them.
I was honestly so afraid that it is impossible to forget. May be I should have taken care of that heartbeat, there is really no benefit in suffering. But I didn't, I thought it will go away in a week or a month. It didn't, it took years. I don't recall any real panic reaction, I somehow managed to keep that together, but the fear, oh boy, you don't want to know !
So yes, I suggest you do something to help you sleep and work the next day. You will gain nothing from torturing yourself.
But when in the lion's den, let your fear guide you. Jump out the door or window if you feel like it, it is perfectly ok. Take a leap back, accumulate pictures and data, proceed again and so on. Do not insist on something you do not know, you may get hurt.
And believe me, it may be hard to imagine now, but there are truly beautiful days right ahead. Just be patient. It does take time.
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Member:
Paardex
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 9, 2006 - 5:49 am:
Corinne thank you for your post,I couldn't agree more with you am on the same type of medicationand life is easy all of a sudden.
I have never been that fearful of being hurt by horses always been very careful[good thing if you know what kind of horses came my way] they always stayed very trusting and relaxed with me Ofcourse after and before riding I had the problems and overal I worried excessively something would happen to the horse[not to me]
Like this: I see one of them pawing and fear immediately a lethal colic and can't get it out of my mind,I take a pill and after 15 minutes am able to decide wether I need a vet or need a good rest.
This medications Christos just restore us to normal healthy fears and NOT to being unafraid it enables me to see if the fear is justified.
Still all the time falling from a horse whenever something happens just to be rid of the situation is at this moment such an inbuild reaction I have decided only to mount a quiet horse in walk and trot alone on a trail ride. I am putting other people in danger and the horse to if I keep DrOpping off and it is not necessary I will ride the other horses at home when alone so they cannot leave the gate. This decision is what you all helped me to make and it seems to me you helped me make a sensible one.
The fact that on the way perhaps we made it more clear why some normally sensible people[and believe me horses too only no medication for them]'overreact' makes me happy because the more everyone understands of someone elses'oddities' the easier life gets for all of us.[and be honest more funny from time to time because I know I have given great pleasure to a lot of people including myself by my ridiculous falls from time to time]The French reaction: Ah it is happening again here's a pill' is if diagnosed correctly beautiful.
Jos
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Member:
Corinne
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 9, 2006 - 11:03 am:
Christos....different spin on things. I thank you for your opinion. I shall say I too agree with your statement that you need a healthy fear and that it needs to guide you in dangerous situations. Without fear and caution the worlds population would dwindle quickly.
But please don't worry...when in the lion's den as Jos states we on antianxiety medication still have healthy fear, it's just not the over the top panic that disables your ability to think rationally, the you think you are going to die sorta fear anymore, so you can make rational decisions to get yourself our of the situation that the fear is warning you against. For instance, when I had trapped my hand in between the coupling and the ball of the tow vehicle a few months ago I had healthy fear, elevated heart rate, rapid breathing, increased adrenalin but I was able to stay calm enough to crank the coupling off and call for help, prior to the medication that would not have been so easy. Medication for anxiety just takes away the irrational worries, the excessive anxiety. Interestingly, it doesn't sedate us or dampen our ability to make quick decisions; it just makes us feel normal. A person not experiencing an unhealthy amount of anxiety, if they took some of these meds, would be clearly sedated and that's why some people abuse these prescriptions. Interestingly enough, while I was always a bit excitable this condition only really started to affect me in the last three years as indicated by the insomnia.
Anyway, I just wish society in general had a more open mind that these are medical conditions and they shouldn't be discriminated against. Jos…..the French’s attitude makes me laugh especially when it’s the complete opposite here in America!
Well...off to Mass. Have a lovely day everyone!
V/r
Corinne
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Member:
Ilona
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 12, 2006 - 10:28 pm:
Dr O
I have not forgotten your request.
I have contacted the research departments of three companies and am awaiting their response. I asked for the clinical data and details of research studies so that I can give you the information in a manner with which you will feel comfortable.
I am very busy getting my interstate move together, escrow closes in 11 days and I have much traveling to do in the interim so life is less than optimal, and requires more organization than I ever dreamed I could muster. So, please be patient, I will stay on top of this to the best of my ability. I do want you to have comprehensive information.
Ilona
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Member:
Ilona
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 12, 2006 - 10:40 pm:
Jos
It seems I did not make myself clear.
There is a common perception in the world that people who suffer from organic (in the literal sense, stemming from the organ itself, in this instance the brain) chemical imbalances resulting in anxiety are seen as non-courageous. That their in-ability to perform in certain arenas is their choice and therefore they lack courage. It was in this way that I meant that anxiety and courage are unrelated. As you correctly stated nothing could be further from the truth. It does take admirable will to over-come neurological anxiety in addition to appropriate fear.
I hope I also made it clear that in my opinion medical intervention is a critical treatment option for many people, and often the only effective treatment option.
As regards to common apprehension to medical treatment I will often point out to my patients that there is this anomoly in society. We are quite happy to enter a pharmacy and eagerly pick out items in bottles (vitamins/herbs) on one side of the aisle with no qualms, however have a great reluctance to enter the other side of the store to get items in bottles (prescriptions). That actually the second is frequently the side that has the best benefit, but carries the most prejudice.
The good news is that with each passing decade there is more public education and clinical advancement. Lack of information and fear are the root of prejudice. At least, thats what I think.
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Member:
kpaint
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 8, 2011 - 11:07 pm:
Does anyone know if Ilona ever posted the research data regarding Gaba-Val? Of course I started reading this old post because I was interested in the original topic, but this related discussion was very interesting. I would email Ilona, but there is not an email listed in her profile, and her last log in date is 2008--or so it states on her profile.
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