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Discussion on Need help With Training Schedule for 4 Horses
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Member:
Ajudson1
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Posted on Saturday, Jun 24, 2006 - 10:11 am:
Looking for advise from anyone who trains or has trained more than one horse on a daily basis.
I have 4 horses: One 17 year old, being retrained for Western per Clinton Anderson style. A 7 year old, working on all the basics yet, and 2, who are 4 years old. One of whom I have been on a few times, the other is still a work in progress with regards to ground work.
I have started a notebook with each horse having their own section. I put the date, amount of time spent with each horse, work done and where done (I have 2 arenas I use) and additional comments as to any problems or breakthroughs.
I have not been able to fit all 4 horses in a day, 3 seems to be my limit. My energy level, other jobs, and the weather of course also affect what I get done.
Any thoughts or suggestions on what would be realistic time frames would be appreciated. I hate to put time limits on working with a horse, but I also need to get an idea what is realistic.
I am a full time stay at home mom, but my kids are older now so my time is more like "mom time" to the horses.
Thanks!!
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Member:
Dove2
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Posted on Saturday, Jun 24, 2006 - 11:05 am:
Angie,
Bravo for your ambition! My understanding is that the 4 horses are your own, and not horses you have contracted to train, therefore you cannot just limit the number of horses to the amount of time you have.
One thing I remember from Clinton Anderson is that horses learn better if the days you train them are consecutive. Rather than training every other day, for example, you'd train for five straight days then give the horse two days off. Using that parameter, you might work horse #1 Sunday through Thursday, horse #2 Monday through Friday, horse #3 Tuesday through Saturday, and horse #4 Friday through Monday (use this shorter 4 day on/3 days off schedule for a horse that would benefit from more time off). I would use the ground training horse in the schedule beginning Monday or Tuesday so as to allow yourself only two horses requiring training under saddle in any one day.
Weather is a challenging factor, isn't it? Obviously the solution is an indoor arena (or even a covered pavillion). Short of that, remember that training comes in many forms. During rain, for example, working in hand on side passing down the center isle of the barn counts as training. Another rainy day session might include a hundred flexes on each side. Coming up with a list of alternative training ideas for inclement days would be a great list to have.
Length of training time is also a factor. I've found that my horse learns better and quicker if training sessions are relatively short. A 20 to 25 minute session incorporating a new skill along with repetition of know skills is usually plenty for my 4 year old. But more important is ending on a solid and positive note. If he is doing super and has a break through, we might quit after 10 minutes.
Stay flexible in your own schedule. I've had a horse that needed to be stalled for several months. We used the time constructively learning tricks using clicker training. It created an unbelievable bond, stimulated her mentally, and stopped some bad habits from starting, like stall walking or cribbing. A leg injury on my current horse prevents our planned riding work so we went back to ground training and some bareback riding for improving my own balance.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that I found that even though I had a plan of action in mind, sometimes those plans get messed up. I had to stop and recognize that there are many ways to continue forward in my horses' progress and they all add up to a well trained, happy horse. Hope this helps.
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Member:
Warwick
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Posted on Saturday, Jun 24, 2006 - 5:16 pm:
Angie, I work full time and also have 3 horses (2 of them young ones) to ride. It's a HUGE challenge and I know exactly what you are going through.
My day consists of getting up at 5:30, feeding, turning out, cleaning the barn, riding my 8 year old gelding and then heading off for a minimum one hour commute to work. Then at 2:00 PM I leave work (I just cut my hours down to 6 hours a day - yay!), get home by 3:00 or 3:30, and work the 2 young horses plus do all the chores I couldn't fit into the morning. Also there is a husband to feed and chat with! Weekends are spent doing 10 million chores around the property that don't fit into the Monday to Friday schedule.
It's exhausting and I find that quite often I just can't do all the horses every day. So when that happens, I stagger them off. The youngest does the least amount of work and the oldest and most advanced horse does the most.
DO NOT beat yourself up if you can't do ALL the horses in a day. It's not worth the stress and as long as the horses have access to good turnout (mine are all on hilly pastures for 14 hours every day), they will survive! You have to remember that you need quality of life too. We are all consumed with making our horses lives enviable but also guilty of making our own suffer.
When I die, I want to come back as an HA member's horse!
Sue
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Member:
Sswiley
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 25, 2006 - 12:27 am:
Very interesting Dove2!
Anyone else have any ideas about training on consecutive days as opposed to every other day? I would be very interested in peoples ideas about this.
Shelley
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Member:
Paardex
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 25, 2006 - 7:05 am:
Training human beings state two days of good muscular training and then one day off gives the best results for building up condition.
I try to keep that schedule but always wondered if a horse wouldn't need a day work on new lessons apart from building up a good condition. Still as time limits training I keep up the two days on one of especially as I agree you need time for quality of life too. If training horses is getting a burden it can't be good for either party horse or human.
Jos
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Member:
Ajudson1
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 25, 2006 - 8:53 am:
Thanks everyone,
I do try to train at least 3 days in a row. I just have been switching who has the days off. I also make sure there is a day of just moseying along the trail, exploring the woods. That's the hardest part to fit in, as I ride alone.
I do believe that the training in consecutive days is important. Right now we have rain again, 2nd day in a row, so there goes that plan! No covered arena, grassy riding surfaces. I am not afraid of getting wet, just of the possibility of lightening.
Jos,
I am glad you put in about training human muscles, I have more problems with soreness than the horses do I know for a fact, LOL!!! In fact, it appears I have been following a 2 on, 1 off schedule, as it is usually the 3 day that I say, "ummm...maybe today is a good day for laundry and house work all day, no horse training"
Sue,
You are to be applauded, that is an awesome schedule you follow and very dedicated. I love being up early in the morning, but with a husband who works swing shifts, I just don't make it very early except when he's on the day shift.
Is there anyone out there who trains horses for others and has 3-5 in at a time for training? I'd be curious to hear how that works out. I do know 30 days of training isn't 30 days in a row of riding time.
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 25, 2006 - 10:46 am:
Angie, great topic! I'm following with interest.
I finally started "cheating" and hired a talented young lady to do a lot of the ground work for me, and to clean stalls 5 days a week. That gives me a lot more time for saddle work. I have 12 horses plus 3 boarders, one of whom belongs to my helper. The boarders are supposed to care for their own horses, but one owner has health issues and can't make it out a lot, so I groom and care for her horse, and the other boarder usually pays her bill, but I haven't seen her out here in over a year!! So, I treat her horse like it was one of ours.
If you could find someone to do some of the barn work in exchange for board, it would really help you time wise I think.
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 25, 2006 - 6:19 pm:
OMG! and I have a heck of a time with two horses! One will be leaving soon so it will ease up on my schedule tremendously, but holy cow..you ladies work hard!
Thanks for posting this Angie 
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Member:
Ajudson1
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Posted on Monday, Jun 26, 2006 - 2:21 pm:
Sara,
Did you ever use a trainer when you were heavier into showing? I thought you did quite a bit of showing? Did you do everything yourself?
Has anyone sent their horse(s) to a professional training and have any idea what kind of schedule they followed? What were your expectations vs what actually happened?
Due to having to haul my 12 yr old darling daughter around to basketball camps this week, my training is going to cut back so this week is designated "ground work week! I always find ground work so much quicker....just halter, or bridle, maybe surcingle and side reins, and boots on. 40 minutes max with grooming, and a quick rinse!
Sue,
Btw, I asked me husband to wake me when he left for work this morning...5:30....ummm...I got up at 7:20, but hey, the thought was there, lol!
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Monday, Jun 26, 2006 - 3:01 pm:
Angie, yes we did use a pro. We almost always had one horse in with a trainer, then showed several ameature in both halter and performance.
The trainer we used a lot was Jesse Saldana, in norther California. He worked the horses 5 days a week. As he got busier, he had a helper that groomed and tacked up the horse, they sometimes lounged halter horses for him, too. He always rode himself and did the halter training. I would arrive at his place unannounced sometimes just to check on things and the horses were always clean, happy looking, and doing great. And, they always did really good in the shows.
Right now I keep the two stallions in with a trainer - a local woman whose methods I really like. The horses get worked almost every day; if not worked they are turned out in the round pen or arena for a few hours. I used to keep my boys at home, but with illness I had it was impossible to keep the worked, and they need it consistantly. Now I have to travel with business a lot, so I just keep them with the trainer. She's just a half hour away, so I can visit and ride whenever I want, and I show them.
Both Jesse and Nellie told me up front what they would be doing, and they followed through. However, I had a horse in once with another well known trainer, and found it was worked always by an assistant, and by the trainer for a day or two before a show. When I went to visit unannounced, no one even knew which horse was mine or where it was in the barn!
btw-a lot can be done in just half an hour under saddle. Maybe alternate with the ground work? It's really tough trying to do everything on your on. I admire your attempt and resolve.
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Member:
Canderso
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Posted on Monday, Jun 26, 2006 - 3:18 pm:
I sent one of my horses to a professional trainer. The horse had had 3 months of stall rest and after legging him back up, I found I was so worried he would relapse I wasn't riding him properly... So off we both went to boot camp.
He was ridden by the trainer 4 days a week, and I came out two days - one day I had a lesson on him under trainer's eagle eye, and the second day I would take the horse out for a hack. After 4 weeks we were back on track - it worked like a charm.
As for training on consecutive days. I wonder if it depends on the horse and what is being introduced? BOTH my horses seem to learn better if given something majorly new on day 1, given day 2 off (to think about it) then back at it on day 3.
... ok, it is entirely possible it is ME who does the thinking on that day off ... (grin) ... but even the trainer remarked on how the technique worked.
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Member:
Dres
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Posted on Monday, Jun 26, 2006 - 3:37 pm:
Days off vary with all my horses.. I have a mare that requires at least two days in a row off after about 4-5 days in a row working.. I have a gelding that can get by with every other day work and be fine.. I have another mare, 4, that will work her heart out for you daily and do it with a smile everytime.. she thrives on the attention and the work.. I have a 3 year old that is getting worked about 5 days a week for a few months then will be out to pasture for a few months before real show work is at hand..the work on her now is easy and slow and she loves coming out when called on.. Each horse will tell you how much / how often they can tolerate.. Its you that has to be listening to them and yourself.. How much can you do.. ?? Personally i am in the process of down sizing.. Its just too much for me anymore.. 4 riding horses is too many... I do believe you need a back up horse for the ''off'' days.. but a back up for a back up for a back up.. Well i need a back up then too..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
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Member:
Warwick
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Posted on Monday, Jun 26, 2006 - 7:42 pm:
You made me laugh, Angie! My husband is still snoring his head off at 5:30 when my alarm goes off! I reset it for 6:30 for him and very rarely see him before he leaves for work unless he walks out to the arena where I'm riding Warwick.
He's not a morning person and his AM chores involve feeding our very spoiled house cat and making sure he picks up his lunch bag which I leave for him by the back door!
Ann, I'm totally with you. I'm currently taking this week as "vacation" to paint fences and barns and pressure wash the house. I'm finding the older I get the less I'm able to keep up with everything. My husband, bless his heart, is not particularly horsey and although he helps with any fencing or structural emergencies around the place - or heaven forbid, horse crises - I'm basically on my own. It took many years but I've finally realized I'm burned out and want a change. Retirement is becoming increasingly more on my mind and although it was a very difficult and emotional decision, I have decided I need to make a life style change. I'm 49 this year with many aches and pains from too many horse related injuries. I just don't bounce back like I used to and to be brutally honest just don't have the guts to start any more young horses. A VERY hard decision to make.
Also I really want to spend more time with my husband and maybe allow him to pursue one of his hobbies for a change. So I'm downsizing to two horses (my wonderful and beloved geldings, Warwick and Alnwick) and we are currently searching for a small (as in one or two acres) non-horsey property close to Victoria on Vancouver Island to "retire" to in a few years and selling our little horse farm here near Vancouver.
I still have a wonderful filly to sell. I'll miss her but quality horses like her get good homes. My lovely old broodmares are now gone. I set out years ago with a goal to breed quality sport horses and I've exceeded that goal beyond my wildest dreams. It's good to feel so proud of the horses you produce - I know you will definitely identify with that. But now it's time to take a step back and live life at a slower pace.
The hardest part was making the decision but now it's been made, I'm really psyched about property hunting and finding a good boarding barn for my boys.
Funny how life works out, isn't it?
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Member:
Dres
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Posted on Monday, Jun 26, 2006 - 8:51 pm:
Ahh Sue, our geldings, ( husbands ) could be pasture pals and bite face and run the fence line together ... My husband is not a horsey guy either, great at maintaining the grounds WHEN i point the issues out to him.. I get up before as well and feed , get the water on the arena started and am in the saddle when i kiss him good bye!~ AND I have a few years on top of yours.. Its a hard decision,I too love all my horses, but something has to give and well my body has been talking to me about it for sometime now.. !!!
Good luck finding your new stall to live in..and a barn to house your horses in.. Once you have had complete care of your horses, its hard to let someone else take care of them your way..
Most likely we will retire here with the the the few horses i keep , we will grow old together out in the pastures... Plus! There are grand children that may someday help out around here..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
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Member:
Warwick
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 27, 2006 - 2:47 pm:
Thanks for the kind words, Ann, and I wish you all the best too in taking time to smell the roses for a change.
You are so right about it be hard to find a suitable barn. Luckily I have a wonderful friend in Victoria who will have room for my boys once we move over there. It won't be quite the same as having them at home but it will be a close second.
In the meantime once we move off our current property and before we make the jump over to Victoria, they will have to be boarded elsewhere - and just like you mentioned, finding a good spot is proving to be a challenge.
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Member:
Ajudson1
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 27, 2006 - 4:36 pm:
Ladies,
I am almost 46 and this is like my last "hurrah". I am finally doing something I always wanted to do....just spending time with horses. For around 20 years I has such fatigue problems I could hardly function (believe it or not, what DrO posted about the bat "crap" was probably the problem...in this house anyhow. Imagine that, the answer found from a vet...too bad I didn't know that years ago)
I am so enjoying the challenges with the 4 horses. I keep saying I want to do this before I am too old to do it. My husband and daughter really want horses they can just be passengers on and smell the roses, watch the butterflies, but I need to do this for ME. I am learning so much from this site, from the clinicians out there, and reading. I figure without horses, what would life be worth living for?
I've been without horses a time or 2, stuck living in the city. YUCK. How anyone can live in the city, I don't get it. And not have a horse??
I don't have any fancy dreams any more about being a professional trainer, but that's o.k. I am only "average" or maybe not even that high in my skills, but without horses in my back yard to practice on, how can I get better? (poor little guinea pigs, huh? LOL!!)
I am more cautious with each passing year. I am usually fine once I am on the darn horse, but I take longer before crawling on one these days.
Sue,
I hope by the time I am 49, I have just really nice trained horses and have lost the desire for one more young one...but I think there will always be another that calls to me. I am a sucker for a yearling or 2 year old, not "touched" yet, let me see what I can do here.
Sara,
I have to keep in mind the half hour under saddle concept. I watched an older gentle man train a few times (bought me 1st Arab in MI from him when we moved here 17 years ago) He would simply saddle up, ride and be done. I always thought he didn't do anything, it was such a short amount of time. But to this day I have not seen anyone who rides like he does...and he still rides, must be in his mid 70's by now. So I hope I can figure our how to do ALOT, in a little bit of time. By that I mean, be good enough to know what little tries are from the horse, and know when to quit.
And, also, know how to keep my tack ready for each horse so I don't spend so much time adjusting, switching girths around, etc. The notebook in the tackroom is helping with that. I may get this down to a science yet!
Especially with everyone's help here.
Thanks all!!
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 27, 2006 - 5:51 pm:
Angie - 46 and your "last hurrah?!!" Don't say that! I'm 63 and feel like I'm still working on my first one! One of my idols, whom I've mentioned before, took up training her horses to drive when she turned 80 because she was getting to old to ride. Another did the Tevis Cup in her 80's and her horse was about 30! (She did all 100 miles; it was her 17th time)
Come on, girl; you're a young "whipper-snapper" yet!
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Member:
Ajudson1
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Posted on Wednesday, Jun 28, 2006 - 1:17 pm:
Sara,
Oh my, I am soo sorry! I owe you a big apology!! I actually had you pegged at more like mid 70's!! Now I don't know why, but I have a vision in my head of a petite lady with white hair, and older than you are.
Now where that came from, I don't know. I have never seen a picture of you that I know of.
O.k., you may send me a "cyber slap online side the head" if you wish!!!
Wait, wait, wait, I know...you post such words of wisdom, I just figured you had to be older! That's it....something you said once must of made you seem wiser beyond your years!!
Phew....how I am doing??? Saving my butt here?? LOL!!!!
We seem to be getting everyones' ages posted lately, but not much more on a training schedule.
I was hoping Dennis or Alden had some input, but maybe they are afraid they'll get tricked into giving away their ages too!!
I hope to be riding when I am in my 80's too...heck, I am only half way through mylife I figure. At the top, not over the hill, or going down the other side (YET)
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Member:
Dtranch
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Posted on Wednesday, Jun 28, 2006 - 2:41 pm:
Angie .... Unfortunatley I am 53 years old.
I do have a full time job as well as train professionally and play in a country rock band. I only mention all this because so many have such trouble with time management with horses and allow very little time for anything else ... then they seem to burn out and the joy of "horsing" seems to lose out and they either become pasture toys, or someone else's problem.
I generally have 2 to 4 outside horses contracted for training at a time. My schedule is for 5 consecutive days of training with 2 consecutive days off each week (approx. 20 days training for a 30 day contract.)
Here is the important part which I finally discovered works best for me after much experimentation. I used to feel like I had to do an hour or two per session per horse in order to give my clients a good 30 day program. Then I could only have 1 or 2 outside horses at a time. But I have found that horses are very much like us people ... anything more that a 30 minute session and the learning process is slowed as we become bored and or agitated. So now, other than when I begin advanced trail training, I limit my session to no more than one hour per horse per session.
The second most important thing is to be flexible and vary your training program. I do some basic groundwork to begin each session, but vary on what that work actually is i/e lunging, desensitizing, flexing, etc. Once in the saddle, I have a plan for a specific goal, but I do not work exclusively on that plan. If I want to work on giving to bit for example, I will drill for a few minutes, then walk out and do something else for a while, leg yield or turnbacks for example. Then back to the giving to the bit, then trot through cones, and so on ... I hope you get the idea. I find that my horses learn more faster if I keep it fresh and interesting for them ... not to mention, it is much more pleasureable for me.
If you are working on neck reining for example, don't force your horse to do the same thing over and over, and over til he gets it. Strive for a little at a time, then build on it.
This post seems to be going on and on so I better get with it. I think you see the basic idea. In the old method, the horse would learn to neck rein in a week or so of gruelling work .... with the new method, he learns to neck rein in the same amount of time, however he can also yeild to the leg, give vertical flex, turn around a barrel, stop and back, and ya da ya da ya da.
On bad weather days, I have a whole battery of groundwork exercises I can do to build a better bond with the horse.
I'd be happy to explain in more detail via email if you would like.
DT
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Wednesday, Jun 28, 2006 - 3:17 pm:
 yeah, yeah,....good try, Angie!
Some excellent advice from Dennis.
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Member:
Ajudson1
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Posted on Wednesday, Jun 28, 2006 - 7:47 pm:
Dennis,
Thank YOU!! That was more of what I was hoping for from someone. (Not that everyone's ideas weren't helpful and very much appreciated) Great explanations of how to break it down and get quality time with each horse.
You hit it right on the head. "Getting burnt out from doing too much horsey stuff" Been there, done that. I also was thinking an hour or 2 for each horse. And it's not happening, not working.
If you can train 2-4 horses with a full time job, and have time for your other hobby, you have this down pat.
I would very much love to hear more about your program, especially "rainy day" activities.
Love to correspond via email and get more pointers.
Thanks again.
Sara, glad to see the laughing rolling head!!!
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Member:
Dove2
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Posted on Wednesday, Jun 28, 2006 - 8:21 pm:
Dennis: Except not by email. There are a few more folks out here who'd like to hear about it. Please share!
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Member:
Ajudson1
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Posted on Thursday, Jun 29, 2006 - 8:06 am:
Dennis,
After sleeping on it, I second Dove2's suggestion.
Could you perhaps do this for us:
1st, walk us through what you would do with a young horse in for 30 days of training. He's halter broke, loads, stands fairly well for most things, etc. In other words, he's just young, and not a "problem horse". You are doing the initial starting of this guy.
See, I don't know at this point what I should accomplish in what time frame. Some horses are easy, seem to accept everything o.k., and after lunging, and doing all the things that clinicians do, as in lateral flexing, moving the rear over, facing me, backing, etc., they are pretty easy to just get on. I have another one, I am still leary of climbing on, still reviewing with him. Don't want any surprises. AND, also at this time in my training life, I can see what is working from the point of ground work, but harder for me once the horse is under saddle.
Back to the program:
Then as your time permits, tell us what would be next. Now if you were doing this horse for me, for example, I'd be glad to take him home, do some riding and maybe bring him back to you later for finishing.
What would you do then? A realistic plan for this same horse for another 30 day period.
And at what point to you consider the horse "trained".....I know, I know, a horse is always in training, but I talking trained as in holding the gaits, responding to leg cues, seat, etc. Do you accomplish this in the first 30 days? I would think not, but see, I don't know.
I have watched 2 trainers: Both called themselves dressage riders. One, a lady in the "dressage" saddle. She gave me some explanations of what she was doing. This was not from day one though.
The second, the older gentleman I referred to, does all kinds of ground driving, takes his time, and rides with so much finese, it is unbelievable. In a western saddle, one that is as old as he is most likely. He is gentle, gets great results, but like many can't really communicate what he is doing. He just takes as long as it takes I guess.
Anyhow, would also love to hear your battery of exercises for rainy days.
Looking here for just a bare time frame, Dennis, you don't need to write a book on every detail. Of course if you feel like adding details that would be great for all of us.
I have like 50 "horse related" books, and a few years worth of magazines too. Just never really see a "program" so to speak.
Dennis, if you are up to this, many thanks in advance!! and I appreciate the offer to email you personally, you are now in my address book!
Angie
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Member:
Dtranch
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Posted on Thursday, Jun 29, 2006 - 10:36 am:
Angie .... I have attached a copy of my training program which I use as a check off instead of trying to document every session with every date and time. The important thing is that the horse can do the exercises, not when and how long it took me to get him there. This has also helped me with my time as I used to use the ole notebook too but decided it was more beneficial to the client as well as myself to spend my time training the horse instead of writing about training their horse.
The 30 day program is designed to get a "Green" horse which is able to be backed and ridden, but not yet ready for a leasurely ride in the open trails. At this point, and experienced rider like yourself could take the horse and finish training, however I generally recommend the 60 day program.Only when the horse can perform all exercises through the 60 day program, do I consider them "trained" or "finished" on my program. Everything else is considered "advanced" or "specialized" training beyond the 60 day plan.
I think the most important thing to incorporate in your training program is a solid lunging / sending technique as I consider this to be the most critical part of my training which builds a foundation for so many things (if done properly). I have seen so many people "lunging" their horses with no apparent purpose ... kind of running around in circles basically running away from them if it weren't for the rope attached. When asked what they are doing, they say they are exercising or lunging to loosen up before they ride and often say they are getting rid of excess energy before they ride to avoid problems. I don't know about you, but I want my horse to have as much energy as possible before a 6 hour trail ride and if I need to lunge before a ride to avoid problems, my horse probably isn't trained yet.
Once the horse understands the basics of lunging, I very seldom work in full circles for any length of time. I send in one direction, then ask for direction change in half of the circle or less until they learn to understand my signals and will change directions readily. I then incorporate this method for literally hundreds of different exercises. I send the horse between me and the fence, then between me and a barrel, then between the barrel and the fence, then lay the barrel down and get tho horse to jump in each direction. All of this is developing control and respect and a great bond between me and the horse. I use this same technique to work around "spooky" objects, to develop trailer loading, and on and on and on. I will do this when first under saddle and they seem to forget all about bucking, etc. Hope this post isn't too long and boring but I am so convinced in the value of a good "lunging with a purpose" program. I generally use this for the first 10 minutes or so of each workout ... never longer than 10 minutes once learned.
I will try and post rainy day workouts soon. Thank you all for your interest in my program. I hope it helps at least a little.
DT
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Member:
Dove2
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Posted on Thursday, Jun 29, 2006 - 10:53 am:
Angie,
Those are excellent questions for Dennis. I see where you're going with this. I'm a little confused in whether you're really after a step by step program that builds from one skill to the next, or are you really concerned about how long each step should take?
If it's the latter, you shouldn't be concerned about that at all because there is no appropriate time frame. The best answer to that would be to take as much time as it takes to get the result you're looking for. ... and then some. If you are looking for an answer that, by the first month, your horse should be able to do x, y and z, then you are not being fair to your horse. Your horse many need the entire month for x, and then will get y and z in a few days. So there should not be any time frame or reference, other than "as long as you need."
Of course, if you hire a professional trainer, then I've found the client should identify the problem or issue which needs to be fixed, and the trainer should take the steps to fix that. Even a great trainer can't always tell how long it will take for a horse's issue to be resolved until it's resolved. That's why, from my own experiences, it's better if a client identifies the issues of the horse, contracts for a value/cost to correct that issue regardless of the length of time it takes. Lots of other issues may come up during the training, and probably the trainer will need to deal with them as well to get to the root problem. (For example, you bring in your horse because he bucks at the canter. Perhaps the horse is disrespectful of riders and that's the reason the horse bucks at the canter. To get to a nice canter, the trainer will need to first address the disrespect issue.) But, I digress.
It sounds to me like you are referencing your two 4 year olds above. One is respectful and easy to back, but you are leary of getting on the other one. I was at that place with my horse once. He's such a sensitive guy that he was feeding off my insecurities. All he needed was a confident rider, a good leader. I took him to a friend of mine who helps train horses for others. His method (which I think is a sound and safe one) is to get to know the horse by lunging. This also gets the horse to respect the handler when the handler shows direction, patience and leadership. It backfires when the handler tries to intimidate or "force" the horse. My friend lunged for a solid two or three weeks before feeling he had established a repore with my horse. Then the next couple of weeks were spent in riding at the walk, getting my horse to understand leg cues. (He'd scoot whenever a single leg was placed on him for bending.) Somewhere in the end of the second month, he started cantering my horse and addressing the problem of his bucking at the canter. He did have to sit through a few bucks, but then got him through that issue. By the end of the third month, I took home a puppy dog of a horse. The disrespect issue was resolved by a rigid schedule of five days' riding, two days off. But most importantly, it was solved by a confident handler.
Now that I've been through a bad trainer and a good one, I realize that it was me that was the problem: my lack of leadership and my less than confident riding skills. I've worked on both and will continue to learn all I can for as long as I have a horse.
If I had to do it all over again, I'd go directly to the Clinton Anderson Lunging For Respect tapes. I'd go through all the step-by-step exercises provided. Except, I wouldn't agonized about perfecting each one before moving to the next. That just frustrated and bored my horse. Once he understood, move on and start learning the next exercise, but come back and improve the previous one(s). Once you feel your horse is listening to you and respecting your leadership, move on to the Riding With Confidence" series. It's excellent and builds the rider's as well as the horse's abilities. (Sorry, I don't mean to be a sales person here; it's just that CA really teaches people how to work with their horse. And once we understand that it is US who need the training, then we can begin communicating with our horses.)
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Member:
Dove2
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Posted on Thursday, Jun 29, 2006 - 11:09 am:
First, I apologize for my too-long dissertation. I get carried away. Mostly, WOW Dennis, that is a great list. I really appreciate the organization. Can you please explain the exercise "clock work"? Sure wish you were within a few hours of me, but I'm totally grateful you're here on this wonderful website.
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Member:
Dtranch
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Posted on Thursday, Jun 29, 2006 - 11:37 am:
Good points from Dove ....
My 30 day and 60 day programs are basically measuring devices and no guarantee that each horse will be able to accomplish in that time frame. I will meet with the client during and at the end of each period and discuss progress and future needs. One other point to make. I usually recommend that the client get involved once we are past the "green" stage so that they understand how and why I am doing what I am doing. It is not important what I can get your horse to do, if you can't get the same results. Dove's point on respect and confidence is so important .. horses are very smart and many times the owner says my horse won't do this or that, and I walk over and the horse does it with no problem. The horse is "testing" the owner to make sure he actually has to do it.
Also, you are right on with the problem horse. Many time I get a horse with a particular problem like bucking, kicking, runaway, or whatever. I first go through my program to evaluate where the horse is in it's current state of training. I work on the lunging exercises extensively, and when the time comes, the horse doesn't do whatever the problem was. Problem solved without working on the problem. It happens this way over and over again. There is no substitute for a good trusting, loving, and respectful bond with your horse.
Dove ... clockwork exercise I believe came from John Lyons terminology. Basically, it is being able to place your horse with reins and legs to establish control over the horse's body. Control the legs and you control the horse. When mounted, you look at the ground as a clock with 12:00 at the head and 6:00 at the rear. The idea is to place the right front leg on 3:00 or 9:00 or whichever you choose with direct rein initially. Then using opposite rein, etc. Work with placing each foot of the horse in different locations with different reins, etc. The beauty of this exercise is that the horse is learning to maneuver and learning to back up, turn, understand cues, and gaining confidence in you and himself at the same time. This is a common theme with all my training in that I am constantly building on one skill while developing others simultaneously. For example, I am now working on two 4yo paints who are just now being backed and getting used to the bit. I ride around just asking for gives to the bit, lateral and vertical flexes, etc. Each time I ask for a turn, I first use leg cue, then neck rein, and then finally direct rein. With each stop, I ask for a back. I am doing all the clock work exercise as well. So, even though my goal is getting the horse to accept and give to the bit, they are learning so much more at the same time. They are both starting to respond to the leg pressure and neck rein, one rein stop, backing, etc. even though they have not totally accepted the whole "bit" idea as yet.
Much better than spending so much time on one exercise frustrating both you and the horse. In the end, we have developed all the skills we are after but both me and the horse are much fresher and willing to learn even more. Anyway, this all works for me. Some horses pick it up in days, others in weeks, but eventually most all become nice soft horses and good buddies as well.
Dove .. hope the "clockwork" explanation is adequate.
DT
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Member:
Hwood
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Posted on Thursday, Jun 29, 2006 - 12:15 pm:
See, Angie????!!!!!
I TOLD you a month ago that we should have Dennis and Alden give training clinics at our Fall 2007 get-together in Missouri!
Thanks, Dennis, for sharing so generously. Be safe.
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Thursday, Jun 29, 2006 - 1:03 pm:
Holly is absolutely correct.
Dennis, after this display of organising talent you can not possibly persuade anyone that you can not arrange to join us in the fall of 2007.
And you must surely be joking by saying that your posts can be boring.
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Member:
Dtranch
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Posted on Thursday, Jun 29, 2006 - 2:01 pm:
Holly and Christos .. you flatter me, I'm really just a dumb ole cowboy. I would love to join you all in 2007, but didn't know there was such an outing. I will look forward to it. You all have so much to offer.
DT
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Member:
Dove2
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Posted on Thursday, Jun 29, 2006 - 2:08 pm:
Is this an outing by invitation only?
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Thursday, Jun 29, 2006 - 2:10 pm:
We all are dumb somethings, Dennis, one way or the other. Some gathering this will be, people over there will be laughing for years !
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Thursday, Jun 29, 2006 - 2:21 pm:
No! Any HA member can come...this is going to be absolutely mindblowing with all the knowledge being put forth in PERSON...Can't wait I'll see if I can find the thread...
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Member:
Hwood
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Posted on Thursday, Jun 29, 2006 - 2:24 pm:
Oh, gee, guys! How did you miss the posts? I can't remember the title of the post, but it's going to be the first ever Horseman's Advisor member get-together, and there are tons of posts on it. Member Erin Chien was helping to organize it at a lovely retreat/resort/horsecamp in Missouri . . . Fall 2007 . . . All members are invited. Some folks are going to try to bring horses and maybe trailer together . . . some will use the horses there . . . Add your preferences to the discussion.
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Member:
Green007
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Posted on Thursday, Jun 29, 2006 - 2:35 pm:
Holly Wood, when and where? I somehow missed the HA get together posts too. I would LOVE to see everyone in person, even just to talk shop face to face.
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Member:
Terrilyn
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Posted on Thursday, Jun 29, 2006 - 2:45 pm:
Maybe Dr. O could be add something about it to the next newsletter so that everyone is aware that the thread exists? If you don't have that particular topic checked, then you wouldn't have received it...
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Member:
Hwood
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Posted on Thursday, Jun 29, 2006 - 2:53 pm:
Yep, Debbie . . . What Terri said . . . Maybe you just don't have that topic checked in your profile, so you missed those posts. Make sure you get the "Lounge" posts. There are lots of inspirational posts there, too . . . and I think there are lots of horse humor posts, etc.
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Thursday, Jun 29, 2006 - 3:32 pm:
It's under Member's Services >> Bulletin Board >> The Lounge >> General Interest Stories and Discussions >> HA Vacation / Get together ideas
(pages 1 and 2)
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Member:
Ajudson1
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Posted on Thursday, Jun 29, 2006 - 5:53 pm:
Dove2,
I'll answer your question first: I was looking for more of a step by step program, the time factor is secondary. I do know enough to know that I DON'T KNOW ENOUGH to know the TIME factor. I realize that only comes with experience, probably 100's of horses. I know now that I don't need to spend as much time with each horse as I previously thought. (Great news for my body too, LOL!)
As these things usually work out, I posted a kind of general question, trying to work my way through my own thoughts. As I was going along, I realized that I needed something like Dennis so kindly and generously shared with us.
}Dennis,
That is just PERFECT!! I can already look at my print out, and have a feel for where everyone is at and what I have to work on. I can also see at just a glance, that I need to backtrack, at least with the one horse. Probably all of them!
Of course you know what all your steps mean, and I may have to still keep a notebook and keep a few notes on each step. It may be beneficail for us mere amatuers here to make notes by the steps as we are also training ourselves at this point. (o.k., maybe that's only me)
I am sure I will have more questions now as I go along. One I have already for you Dennis is this: Should I make my 60' square pen into a round pen?? I know that sometimes corners are great, but I have them in my larger arena. (85 x 120)
If I just round off the corners, would that be sufficient, or do I need absolute round, and if so, how much difference does it make in your opinion? I can do that easily without moving posts. To make it totally round, means moving posts.
Is stage one on a lunge line, or free lunging?
Or both?
FYI I do have Clinton's book and have seen the lunging for respect but don't own it. I like his methods for their no nonsense approach, but I also like Dennis Reis, (and Dennis Taylor of course) as Reis is more gentle IMO.
Dennis, If you are a dumb ol' cowboy, well, I think the world needs more dumb ol' cowboys!! Horse sense is great knowledge. And you are NOT boring anyone...please carry on! And you'd better make it in '07. Or I'll have to convince my husband we're going to,.. Indiana is it??
Just a side note here, I rode my 7 year old this morning with a completely different attitude. Thinking baby steps, and being very aware of my breathing, my posture (studying Wendy Murdock's book at night)We were both smiling when we were done!!
Same idea with the one 4 year old. Not sure if she was smiling, but it ended on a good note.
Looking for those extra ideas for rainy days whenever you have time.
Very much appreciate that you shared your program.
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Member:
Dtranch
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Posted on Friday, Jun 30, 2006 - 9:28 am:
Thanks Angie ... you're too kind. '07 sounds like a great idea and I will definately plan on attending.
Rounding the corners would be sufficient .. square corners give the horse too many opportunities to stop and or change directions on their own instead of listening to you. They can also be a little dangerous as they sometimes may feel trapped in the corner and try to escape, especially the young ones.
Stage one is totally free lunge with you controlling speed and direction. Make sure you can get the inside turns as they can be most difficult to learn, but are a great tool for building trust in the young ones as you can get them to turn in towards you instead of away from you. Body language as well as body position is the key to all these exercises.
I too am a fan of both Anderson and Reis. Don't confuse firmness with being less gentle as some horses require a bit more attention than others. I have met Dennis Reis and he will also use the occasional "whack" when necessary.
As for rainy day sessions in the barn, they are as endless as your imagination, and remember that every minute you spend with your horse is an opportunity to build the bond and friendship that you have. Some of my sessions are as simple as pulling up a bucket to sit on and visit with the horse. Let him wander up and down the runway, and he will almost always come back to visit. It is also a great avenue to vent, as I have never had a horse reveal the contents of our discussion.
Obviously you can work on all the flexing and desensitizing exercises, work on head position for haltering, bridling, working pressure points and positioning body, personal space exercises, and so on. I will also work on ground tying as well as standing tied and relaxed.
This is also a great opportunity to prepare your horse for farrier and veterinary work. I will work with all feet, mimicking moves of the farrier including tapping on the bottoms and learning to stand calmly with foot on a bucket or something as a farrier does to file. We can never do enough preparation for the vet imo, so it is a good time to work with mouth and ears and getting your horse to calmly allow you to open mouth and pull tongue out to side as in "floating" and other dental work. Believe me, your farrier and vet will appreciate every minute you spend doing these exercises. Its also a great time to get your horse used to the clippers for trimming and grooming, fly spray and medications, etc.
Also, we can never do enough backing exercises for the overall development of our horses. Invent games like backing into a stall, backing out of the stall, parallel parking, or whatever. I will also put the bridle on and work on positioning all areas of the horse with the bit much like the "clockwork" exercise from the ground.
The goal of all these exercises is to help your horse become soft, soft, soft. the more responsive the horse, the better.
My runway is about 9 or 10 feet wide which is perfect to work on side pass exercises and sending exercises which, imo are worth their weight in gold.
And lastly, take some time for just pleasant grooming and bonding time. Remember, the whole purpose of this whole "horse" thing is supposed to be enjoyment ... for both you and the horse.
DT
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Member:
Dres
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Posted on Friday, Jun 30, 2006 - 9:52 am:
I went thru Dennis Reis's program when he first started out.. WHAT FUN.. something totally new for me and well my dressage horse.. The first thing he said to me was my horse was not halter broke and was dangerous.. I went to him becus yes we had issues, but they were under saddle.. heheheee.. He does use force when needed.. and frankly my horses head was raw from rope burns from resisting the halter .. ! He actually had to get on a pony horse to work with her as she was a little bit much for a man on the ground to deal with.. AND i thought all along i had troubles in the saddle. !! After the 9 day program we were both halter broke.. I came away with a whole new additude toward ''halter'' breaking my young horses..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
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Member:
Dtranch
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Posted on Friday, Jun 30, 2006 - 10:13 am:
Oh yea ... I almost forgot. You can also take this time to teach your horse some tricks if you like. I have a couple of horses that can "count" to several hundred when tied.
DT
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Member:
Dove2
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Posted on Friday, Jun 30, 2006 - 10:24 am:
 Would that be called "pawing" in other circles?
I have used clicker training to teach tricks to a stall-bound horse, which actually stopped the stall-walking behavior she was just starting to pick up! This horse was so pleased to finally show a human how intelligent she really was. It made for an exceptionally strong bond. Caution: the first trick you teach is the one they most often revert back to. Pick a good one. For subsequent horses, I picked "Away." I ask the horse to turn his head to the side and back a little so as not to be pushy/mouthy about treats. Now my horse tells me he wants something by coyly turning his head away. Much nicer! But then, clicker training is a whole 'nuther thread.
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Member:
Dtranch
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Posted on Friday, Jun 30, 2006 - 11:03 am:
Dove ... you got me on that one.
DT
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Friday, Jun 30, 2006 - 12:00 pm:
Dennis !
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Member:
Ajudson1
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Posted on Friday, Jun 30, 2006 - 12:49 pm:
Dennis, and Ann,
First of all, I am so jealous you all met Dennis and, Ann, you went through his program. I have it in mind I want to start ordering his program, it's so expensive IMO, but maybe I can sell a horse and buy it that way. I know I would LOVE it. Would like to start collecting some of Clintons also....ah heck, maybe some Chris Cox DVD's too while I am at it!!! And maybe some day some Dennis Taylor? (Dennis must be the name for horse trainers)
Thanks Dennis for sharing your rainy (or muggy/buggy day like today) ideas. I am off to round off those corners, and see where we are at on the "check list".
Looks like I will have to work convincing my husband to put some barriers up in the aisle this winter. It is a 12' wide aisle, but open to other dangerous areas. Right now the hay elevator is laying in it, could be an accident waiting to happen. Just knocking on wood no one gets goofy.
If you thinks of anything else that may be helpful, please share!!
I am sure I will be back with questions as I start reviewing this.
Many thanks!!
P.S., we have to all meet next year, my husband was wondering who the guy was that shared his training program with me that I was raving about!!!
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Member:
Dawson
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Posted on Friday, Jun 30, 2006 - 1:35 pm:
Thanks guys! I had you all pegged as much younger than me (49)now that you gave your ages it's nice to know I'm in EXCELLENT company.
ANGIE I know what you mean by a last hurrah. I've been feeling old and since they had me on steroids like a blimp, out of shape and in pain most the time but I do not want to give up this last opportunity. I finally have a small farm of my own, 2-saddlebreds 2-qtr. horses and four mini's. When the knowledgeble physicians said "your done riding" it got me mad enough to prove them wrong. I would like to show one more time, maybe I will-maybe not. But I do know when I am experiancing the worst days of pain looking out and seeing my horses grazing gives me all the medicine I need to truck that wheelbarrel out back one more time.
SARA-reading your other posts I pictured you more as a young Barbara Stanwyck, why? Your knowledge, compassion, and endurance to see things through, 63! You go girl... now Angie and I have a new goal to shoot for right Angie?
DENNIS-53? for some reason I had you pegged as much younger. Thanks for sharing your knowledge with us. When John Lyons came out I thought Hmmm he's good, Monty Roberts, he's got some good points, actually I think they all do, and I just seem to end up picking and choosing a little from here and some from there. I thinks it's very important to try and keep introducing new concepts or experiances to keep a horse from getting bored.
Yes-I sent two of my Saddlebreds away with a professional trainer. They spent the first ten months of their life in a stall together-that's it. They did not even go out of the very dark barn they were in. It took four of us to get them out of the stall so that I could view them, talk about a challenge. The Palomino is laid back about everything. First time on board he licked my boot and looked at me as if to say you look pretty silly up there but ok if that's where you want to be.
The 2nd a chestnut had difficulty processing EVERYTHING still does.He stayed with the trainor for almost a year, when I visited the trainor always told me we are working on this.. or that.. Come another time she'd show me-too busy today!
Push came to shove and eventually she "fessed" up that she had never even saddled him, which he knew before he left us. She said, he was ready she just didn't have time but would ride him that week, I said fine I'll be up on Saturday to see how things are going. When he came home GREEN was not the word for his level of training.
Before he left us because I would not afford to get on him due to my health, I long reined him with tack, and he verbally knew his three gaits, when asked.
What I got back was a horse that was people friendly, in your back pocket, tooo friendly. She taught him the one rein stop. Riding him was like sitting on a 17.2 Fire cracker waiting to go off, the fuse was already lit. And the one rein stop was about as affective as .... I worked with her for a few weekends and realized she had crammed everything to the last three weeks and more poor horse was lost.
I did not ride him at all last year, and decided to re-start him this year. Your check list and suggestions were excellent.In all honesty I was procrastinating.Reading your message made me re-focus and get back to thinking about the basics. I've got enough "horse Books" in my house my husband refers to our basement as the library.
Your message organized my thoughts.
THANKS AGAIN EVERYONE! As for how do I keep four horses excercised/training.... one day at a time!
They all have very different abilities and personalities.
The two that like to learn the most are the two that require the least. The one that needs to learn the most (saddlebred chestnut) requires the most(he doesn't remember anything unless he gets a little each day.The fourth he's just plain lazy. My Buckskin Qtr horse, trained the best, tugs at my heart, take me...take me... he doesn't need regular riding, he's happy to hang out behind me while I pull weeds in the vegtable garden!
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Member:
Hwood
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Posted on Friday, Jun 30, 2006 - 2:10 pm:
Dawson, where are you in Massachusetts? I love the quote on your profile.
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Friday, Jun 30, 2006 - 5:08 pm:
Dawson, I hope you weren't actually paying that trainer!!
And - I'm glad I at least sound young! Compared to some of the other people on this board, and to some of the other horse people I know, I often feel like a young "know-nothing," but in an old body!
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Member:
Dawson
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Posted on Friday, Jun 30, 2006 - 5:35 pm:
HOLLY WOOD; I live in Salisbury, which boarders New Hampshire.
SARA; I paid cash up to the point the trainer told me the Palomino was her Soulmate, the horse she always dreamed of, and before I was aware of the training she was actually providing. I gave her the Palomino as partial payment/gift. STUPID ME... she sold him two weeks later!! So much for him being her forever horse. The good news we purchased him for a second time a few weeks ago. Live and Learn, I did, he is very thin, and clearly happy to be home!!
Yep, I know what you mean, what a well informed group, all interested in bettering their relationships, and care of 'HORSES". Some mornings I'd swear my body is at least 112 years old!
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Member:
Ajudson1
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Posted on Friday, Jun 30, 2006 - 6:28 pm:
It isn't fair is it, our brains keep gaining in knowledge, but our bodies seem to going down hill.
You know what is so fascinating? This wonderful snowball affect. I had lost sight of what I had horses for; my health had been less than perfect, my body getting softer, no goals in sight, I was ready to agree with my husband....sell the horses and get a few ATVs.
Nowadays, I am more invigorated than ever! Having a plan on paper is the key to growth I believe. (thanks again to Dennis, see what you started here?) Then the knowledge to carry out the plan. All of which I have been getting from this site and the wonderful members that take time to post.
I find that one good thing leads to another: I am watching my diet, thinking about what muscles I am useing and stretching them, studying more about "how to ride" correctly, and researching pads/saddles, all in an effort to be the best "horse woman" I can be. And give my horses the best also. The Best OF ME. Softness based on knowledge is getting more important to me all the time.
Dawson,
Get up every day and just think "HORSE". Do what you love, keep learning and never focus on the negatives in your life. Us ladies in our 40s, we are at the top of the hill!!!! Even in your 50s we can say that. Take a look around, enjoy the view!!! I am not ready to roll down the other side without a "last Hurrah"...maybe many more hurrahs!!!
Phew, did I get going there or what???? (free of charge to all of you, LOL!!)
Sara,
Yes, a young Barbara Stanwyck....that sounds perfect for you! And I think you are still at the top of the hill from what I've read in your previous posts..........out riding alone in the mountains weren't you?
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Member:
Dtranch
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Posted on Friday, Jun 30, 2006 - 6:53 pm:
Now you got it Angie ....
That is exactly why I love horses and especially training horses. Forever young and energetic. And they are truly my best buddies. Softness and confidence are the keys.
DT
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Friday, Jun 30, 2006 - 8:37 pm:
Dawson, I'm thinking of starting this great training program. You bring me your horse and leave him here; I'll charge you $500/month plus $300/mo. board, and when I get around to it I'll do a little training on your horse. I thought you might be interested!
Seriously, don't feel too badly. I've known some of the top trainers in the nation -at least top Arabian trainers - and while most are great people, true horse lovers, hard working and honest; there are the few that are doing nothing but looking for the almighty dollar and someone inexperienced enough to give it to them. You've learned a valuable lesson, and you have your horse back.
Barbara Stanwyck? Was that Green Valley or something like that? I ride all over the place mostly alone because it's either that, or don't ride. I do take a cell phone, which works most places. And, when I ride in rough country alone, it's on a horse that I have a lot of trust in and vice versa.
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Member:
Dtranch
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Posted on Monday, Jul 3, 2006 - 11:32 pm:
Angie ....
Just curious .. how are your workouts going?
DT
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Member:
Ajudson1
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 4, 2006 - 7:26 am:
Dennis,
You are not going to believe this, but just a few minutes ago as I was making tea, I was thinking that you would be posting and asking me just that!! WOW, Weird, or what???
To answer your question, I haven't had much horse time. It's been HOT, Muggy, and no wind...plus every other day has storms passing through. Add my daughters basketball schedule, and my husband on his long weekend before he starts a 30 day work stretch....well, you get the idea. Today is canoeing, not horses.
Tomorrow though I plan on starting full force. (I am really missing my horse time)
I did get a few days to "test" my oldest horse, and found out she isn't that great at free lunging, and even at regular lunging. She used to be my pride and joy, attentive, responsive to voice commands, etc. Wondering if I imagined all that, lol!!
So, being she's a super sensitive Arab, any advice on slowing her down, other than bumping her nose? She's making progress. Joined up with me, for example. Never thought to do that before with a horse.
What I do is practice "new" skills with her, then move on to the next oldest horse. She's 17, but only been handled and rode by me her whole life...wow, that's getting to be an eye opener too!
Thanks for checking on me, and I am sure as I start the program, I'll be back with more questions.
BTW, would you recommend Dennis or Clinton for all the ground work? Thinking I may start collecting DVD's on at least that.
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Member:
Dtranch
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 4, 2006 - 8:27 am:
Angie .. Are yo sure you're not in Indiana, sounds like our weather.
Is she paying attention to you, or just happy to be running around? Arabs especially tend to be a little independant and excited on the lunge IMO.
When free lunging, I would work on many direction changes making sure you are able to get both inside and outside turns as this should get her to focus on you and slow down a little. When she slows down a little, let her rest for a few seconds, then continue. Your body language and position are the key. I would go half a lap and ask for outsied turn, then half a lap and inside turn, then just a few panels between turns, etc. You should see very quickly that she is beginning to focus on you. Don't let her just run for several laps looking out over the round pen. If she tries to stop and turn on her own, position yourself so that she has to continue until "you" ask for the turns.
I do much the same on the lunge line, bumping on the halter each time she pulls away until she will go aroound with slack in the line. Then there are many exercises or drills to work on with the lunge. Remember, soft responsive and calm is your goal. It is so rewarding to watch your horse develop in this way.
As for Reis, or Anderson, both are good but I think Anderson's "lunging for respect" would be a gold mine for you at this point. The best thing is, once you get comfortable with what you are doing, develop "Angie's" method. Put your identity and personality in your training routine. You'll be amazed at what you come up with, and thats when it really becomes fun. No need to become just another Reis, Anderson, or Parelli, or whatever. After all, thats what they did isn't it? Take the basics, and develop your own style. Heck, maybe someday we can order the "Angie" video.
Enjoy your "horsing" around.
DT
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Member:
Ajudson1
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 4, 2006 - 10:04 pm:
Dennis,
I think that would be "Angie's Funniest Horse Video"....let me tell a couple of quick stories here.
When I first bought Willow, the Arab mare I am talking about, the older gentleman who sold her to me showed me how to ground drive her. Claimed it was the only way to start a horse. So I started doing that, oh, I think it was February when she was coming 3. My husband had just told me to be careful, I had the ropes around my legs. I pretty much blew him off, only to be wisked off my feet a minute later, and dragged across the snow covered corral, on my backside!! Brian thought it was pretty funny, Willow wasn't sure what to make of it, but did stop so I got untangled.
This same horse would not go through water, unless I went first. (unless she couldn't see the water, as in when it's got long grass growing there) So I got wet feet a lot of times leading her through it, until the time she jumped on me and knocked me flat over. My knees and elbows were pretty skinned up, and I just about shoved her back in the creek, on sheer adrenline, so I could crawl on her and go home. (she's barely 14.2, but I was shaking from pain and anger)
Granted, these things all happened the first few years I was riding her, and I have improved as has she, but don't think I should be taking any deposits on that video just yet!!
At any rate, thanks for the additional advice.
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Member:
Ilona
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 5, 2006 - 1:09 am:
Dennis,
I just want to thank you.
I had glanced at this thread periodically over the last couple of weeks and knew I needed to spend some time reading it. What you have given me is an outline together with specifics to get myself into gear.
I have a 3 1/2 yr old Rocky Mountain that I have been doing some Pirelli work with. She responds well. She is almost ready to start under saddle, another 3-6 months and I think she will have the emotional maturity and attention span to flourish in training. I've noticed her coming more into her own in the past 6 months. I've had her for a year.
I'm moving in 3 weeks (the most intimidating move I've yet made, 10 horses, 17 dogs, 7 cats, 5 birds , oh, yes, and one fiancee). Once settled I'm going to start her on your tasked program. I'm impressed with the clarity of the building blocks. Each one a separate accomplishment, but deeply intertwined with all those preceeding. Who knows, if I work hard enough, she may be one of the chosen three I bring to Bushy Creek next October.
I am deeply grateful. Thank you.
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Member:
Dtranch
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 5, 2006 - 8:49 am:
Ilona and all .. Just happy if anything I have to offer is helpful, and you are absolutely right in describing each task as a building block .. all are a key part to the whole horse relationship. In my small training business, my motto is "building a bond between horse and rider" and I truly believe that is the goal. It's not just getting an animal to do what you want, it is indeed establishing a relationship, or bond with your partner. All tasks are important in developing the total relationship, not only developing a better horse, but also refining the "horse sense" of the human partner.
Am looking forward to meeting all in '07.
DT
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Member:
Dawson
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 5, 2006 - 3:37 pm:
SARA; Yep, that's about right. Not a chance, been there, done that, sorry you are too late, and to think you would have received a free double reg. Palo/saddlebred too.
DENNIS: Let me ask you about that one reined stop. Before he left, my horse knew the words, EASY and HO, both loose in the paddock when we played and when he was tacked up and long reined.
When he was placed "under saddle" the trainer said she taught him the one reined stop-outer rein. I'm supposed to pull the outer rein up/back, the horse responds by going into tight circles until he eventually gives to the rider by DrOpping his nose. This is not something I saw myself using on the trails or in the ring on a VERY green horse. We went back to the old EASY-HO commands. I have not seen the one-reined stop described anywhere is it a myth or real?
Does anyone out there use a one rein stop?
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Member:
Leilani
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 5, 2006 - 3:54 pm:
Dawson,
I use the one rein stop. I pull my left or right rein to my hip and hold it there until she relaxes and gives to the bit and her feet stop moving. This disengages her hindquarters where all the power is.
I taught this to my young mare over the course of 1 week and reinforce constantly. I used 2 reins in the past to whoa, but my older mare would just hunker down and keep on going. She understands the one rein stop now.
Leilani
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Member:
Dtranch
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 5, 2006 - 4:13 pm:
Dawson ... Leilani has it pretty clear. This is one of the first things I teach green horses and beginning riders. It is used primarily as a safety issue to avoid the bolting, runaway horse. It is however a very good exercise for controlling the horses feet and setting up many other exercises. I will pull the rein to my thigh and hold it there and let the horse find the release when he stops.
The idea is that I am sure you have discovered that a runaway horse can simply take the bit and keep on running with the straight pull back. With the one rein stop, this is not possible as the horse can not run away very easily when turning in a tight circle.
It is not something I use as a basic stopping method, sitting deep in seat and asking whoa, etc. It is important to note that I teach this very early and stress vigorously to the beginning rider as it must be a reflex action and immediate. Once the horse gets going to speed, this method can be dangerous as the horse my lose balance at the run and fall. It is also something that may not lend itself useful on a narrow, tight trail. Unfortunately, we all know there is an inherent risk in horse riding, and sometimes you just have to ride it out. In my experience, I have seen this method avoid many potential wrecks on the spooked or bolting horse.
DT
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Member:
Dove2
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 5, 2006 - 4:39 pm:
Dawson,
Clinton Anderson is a big proponent of the one-rein stop. He not only teaches it to use as an "emergency hand-brake" but also strongly supports the idea that lateral flexing (which is what the one rein stop really is) is the key to a soft, supple horse and the foundation for the horse's vertical flexing (without the rider having to hold the horse's mouth). To use the one rein stop on a speeding horse, you should carefully spiral him to a stop rather than pull his head in. The one rein stop requires teaching the lateral flex to your horse so that he does get very soft to your rein. The rider would also need to instinctively know to use one rein in a panic situation. This can only be achieved by practising it until it became automatic. I think it's a very effective tool (especially for the novice rider) to have. Your trainer should have taught your horse to flex on either side, regardless of location in the ring. You'd need to have both sides of the horse equally trained, therefore typically you'd alternate direction of flexing during training. The one-rein stop certainly has given me a lot more confidence while riding my horse because even after a spook, I can use the one-rein stop to prevent my horse from doing something stupid.
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Member:
Kathleen
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 5, 2006 - 5:30 pm:
Dennis,
Before I had even heard of the one rein stop, I had a mare who would bolt just because she wanted to. I took her to a "problem horse" clinic and the clinician told me to raise one rein up high, the other low, which basically puts the horse's head in a position where they cannot put their head up or down, I guess. Anyway, during the clinic, a train came roaring by and my mare bolted, and how I remembered what the clinician had just told me I don't know, but I did as she said and within 3 strides, the mare had relaxed and slowed down. I don't know why it worked, but it did. That idea would help on a trail where you cannot turn the horse or if they are already running. Just an FYI. I had forgotten about it until you mentioned the narrow tight trail.
Kathleen
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Member:
Ajudson1
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 5, 2006 - 9:57 pm:
Dawson,
I believe in a combination of ways to achieve "whoa". First I like voice commmands taught on the lunge line. As I've learned more about this "lunging for respect" method, it's disengage the hind quarters and "whoa".
Then just "whoa" without turning to face me.
Then "whoa" using the one rein stop described above when riding. And "whoa" using my seat to stop the horse.
I think it may be confusing to some people who just think one rein stop as what you always do. When I first seen and heard about it, that was my impression also. Always pull the head around to stop? Seemed pretty silly, but it's a building block of the whole training program.
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Member:
Ajudson1
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 5, 2006 - 10:13 pm:
Dennis,
Can you give me a hint here on the difference in asking for an inside turn vs outside turn, free lunging?? I actually had my 7 yr old gelding doing beautiful figure 8's today, inside turns. But I am drawing a blank on what to do different to ask for the outside turn. Other than let the horse just do it.
I know this is something simple, but my brain seems to have lost memory of seeing it done.
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Member:
Dtranch
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 5, 2006 - 10:52 pm:
Angie,
It is all really in body position. The fact that he is willingly turning inside is good as that means he trusts you. Inside turns are usually harder to get as the horses natural instinct is to turn away from you to escape.
As for the method to get either, it is really pretty simple to explain, but a little harder to do and will take some practice. If you are wanting an outside turn, when you position yourself to ask for the turn and your horse turns to the inside, simply step back up and cut him off. He will start back on the rail, then ask again. Keep repeating until he figures it out. It may take a few tries, but he will figure it out. Once he makes the proper turn, release all pressure. He will soon learn to read you as well as you read him.
One other thing I may not have mentioned. When I want an inside turn, I will open the door for him so to speak using my body language and my arms, closing the door with the arm in front of him and opening with extended arm to the inside. When I am asking for the outside turn, I will not open with the inside, but use my body language to press into the rail for the turn.
Geeez, I thought it was going to be easy to explain til I started typing. Hope I didn't confuse you more.
DT
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Member:
Ajudson1
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 6, 2006 - 7:48 am:
Dennis,
Actually you did just simplify it for me. And as I suspected, what I was missing is really simple.
I take a big step, with my "stick" (I simply use different length whips for my tools, tape the sash up as needed, tie on bags,etc)to cut him off. Step BACK when asking for the inside turn as well as point the new direction. Step TOWARDS him for an outside turn. I am usually wearing sunglasses, so I also DrOp my head instead of just DrOpping my eyes to let my horse know if I am in a threatening, driving, position or not.
Yesterday, my timid horse (yup the one I posted about needing help with awhile back) also did great free work. He also joined up with me! What a beautiful thing that is!! Only in his case, when he knew he was safe with me I had trouble getting rid of him, as that is his nature to come bury his head in me and hide. When he isn't running the other way of course!!
You will hear this a few more times from me I am sure; your training program is a God send for me. Not just for the schedule part, but for the confidence part too. Knowing for example, where my timid guy is at will help me know for sure when I will finally get on him. No stone will be left uncovered. It's too easy to just do a few things, figure the horse isn't bucking so I can start riding them. Getting a little too old for that!! Never had any broken bones, want to keep it that way.
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Training Program